Grammatical Grumbling...

[Mr Mystery]

So, it seems that children are one again to be tested on their grammar (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22403731).

Seems kind of a good idea. Whilst I for one am happy to overlook the odd missing or misplaced punctuation, netspeak gets right on my pip, and I'd rather see it stamped out!

How about you?

[Wolfshade]

The preceeding comma before and is not required here.
If you had a list then it would be ok, e.g. I have a Warboss, A squad of Nobz, 4x30 slugga boyz, and a battlewagon.

[Psychosplodge]

So, it seems that children are one again to be tested on their grammar (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22403731).

Seems kind of a good idea. Whilst I for one am happy to overlook the odd missing or misplaced punctuation, netspeak gets right on my pip, and I'd rather see it stamped out!

How about you?

I'd have put once again.
It did always seem ridiculous to me that a test on English didn't really take punctuation and spelling into account.

[Mr Mystery]

There is a reason I never go fully grammar/spelling ****....

No matter the care I take, I end up with egg on my face!

[Wolfshade]

It is an unfortunate problem that as soon as someone mentions proper punctuation, their posts are then scanned ruthlessly for correct usage.
While I may be able to use grammar, my inability to spell is more problematic.

It is very frustrating though as every day signs irritate me, especially Birmingham City Council's removal of apostrophes from place and road names "in order to avoid confusion and people getting it wrong".

King's Norton -> Kings Norton
Acock's Green -> A***** Green

[Mr Mystery]

I think there's a big difference between not knowing your grammar, and simply making a mistake!

But yeah....I do question the wisdom of people who choose a company called something like 'ca$h4r£funds'..... Yes that is a slightly made up one to protect the innocent, only slightly mind...but really. Really really?

[Wolfshade]

Certainly, there are also problems when you move away from the hard rules to the more "stylistic" approach. Like the use of "like" instead of "as if" cited in the article, or the use of a preposition to start a sentance.

At one stage splitting infinitives was a big no-no, but now we are all very comfortable "to boldly go".

As much as I am a stickler for correct usage, the whole purpose of language is to make yourself understood and if your written words are understandable then it isn't too much of an issue. Despite how much it may frustrate me.

The over-corrections I find amussing, people who use whom instead of whom and who use I instead of me constantly.

[Mr Mystery]

And further there's a quiz now! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22512744)

I scored a slightly embarassing three out of ten....

[Wolfshade]

Just done it 10 :)
For me the Hilary question was the most taxing.

We were just talking about this in the office

[Psychosplodge]

seven :(

[Wolfshade]

I do have to admit, that the last one was a bit of a guess, I knew it wasn't one and hadn't heard of the other.

I also feel the need to admit that I giggled at the Churchill question.

[eldargal]

8/10, wasn't paying attention on a few.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm blaming too much time being exposed to internet "English".

[Mr Mystery]

Well. Being the low scorer, I shall fetch my Mr Thicky hat, and wear it with suitable shame.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4680067939959170&pid=1.7&w=187&h=143&c=7&rs=1

[Wolfshade]

As I've said before, as long as you are understood by those you are communicating with then you are doing ti right.
After all the written language should reflect how it is used rather than how it should be used.

[Bitrider]

I got to question 6 with a 0/5 score and decided that I could face being a quitter more than the shame of a verifiable 0/10 score.

[Wolfshade]

I got to question 6 with a 0/5 score and decided that I could face being a quitter more than the shame of a verifiable 0/10 score.

:(

[DrLove42]

I got to 6 with a score of 2/6 and got bored...

[Kyban]

I got 8! Not bad, I thought I'd do worse. Didn't pay enough attention to the gender one and didn't know what all the grammatical terms meant.

[Wildeybeast]

Another dumb idea from the colossal cretin in charge of education. I wish he would spend more time undermining his own leader rather than my profession. Forcing children to sit tests on grammar will not improve their use of grammar. It will simply demonstrate that the non-specialist primary school teachers don't know how to teach grammar in an engaging fashion, which will be another stick to beat them with. If I were Gove, I'd spend more time and effort on trying to ensure that we don't get children leaving primary school who are functionally illiterate, rather than pushing his grammar school agenda.

[Wolfshade]

But unless you know how to use the subjunctive properly you are functionally illiterate ;)

Actually, Wildey has a good point; it would be niave to just blame the teachers however. If a child cannot read and write one must ask what the parents are doing (or not). I was read to and encourage to read from an early age as were my sisters, now when you visit our houses there are bookcases full of books. How often are these illiterate children given video games / tv in loco parentis.

[Psychosplodge]

Don't talk to me about TV loco parentis. As soon as the SO's niece/nephew appear everyone loses access to the TV for the ****ing childrens channels.

[Wildeybeast]

But unless you know how to use the subjunctive properly you are functionally illiterate ;)

Actually, Wildey has a good point; it would be niave to just blame the teachers however. If a child cannot read and write one must ask what the parents are doing (or not). I was read to and encourage to read from an early age as were my sisters, now when you visit our houses there are bookcases full of books. How often are these illiterate children given video games / tv in loco parentis.

I'd agree with that point, though some folk should just be banned from breeding. However, until Farrage and chums get us out of the EU, that pesky human rights law stops such things. It is our job as teachers to educate them. We are failing them because we are not being supported by our government.

Primary school teachers are expected to give individual attention to 30+ very young children, which is hard enough without all the complex needs many of them have, whilst teaching them a broad range of subjects, none of which they are a specialist in. They have to put up with physical abuse from the kids and verbal abuse from the parents whilst a man, who assumes that increasing the amount of tests or simply raising grade boundaries in some way constitutes a more challenging level of learning, tells them how lazy and crap they are.

[Wolfshade]

I would say teachers are "failing" as they are not being supported by the parents.

Typical example, my sister is a Physics teacher, a parent complains that the forecast grade she gave little Tommy was an E. Parents are saying that she should do better to get him a higher grade. Her response is that Tommy hadn't been in school for the last 6 weeks so how is she meant to teach him.
Another child complained at her for not controlling him better; talk about taking responsibility for your own actions!

I have long considered that teachers need "class room enforcers" people specially trained at restraining and disarming troublesome students.
That and perhaps the frnech version of having to pass the year before you move up; though I am not sure that that would help...

[Wildeybeast]

My sister did her training in school where if she needed a kid removing from class she pressed a button and a bouncer came and physically 'escorted' said child from the room. It was rough school by all accounts.

[Psychosplodge]

If you don't want to be there and they give you the chance to leave why would you cause a fuss? you're getting what you want aren't you?

[Mr Mystery]

It's not just Primary or Secondary schools.


Guy I know was sacked from a Nursery because a parent complaint he hadn't potty trained the kid...

Birth licenses now, please.

[Psychosplodge]

Birth licences, limit of benefits for first two children - fund the rest yourself.

[Wildeybeast]

If you don't want to be there and they give you the chance to leave why would you cause a fuss? you're getting what you want aren't you?

You misunderstand. In most cases, they want to be there, they just want to do what you tell them. Their friends (or at least peers) are in the class and they want the attention. In some cases, they want adult attention because they get bugger all at home and the only time they do get is when they act up.

[scadugenga]

The first part of this song fits the subject matter:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtMU8nvZzOs

Of course---the video belongs firmly in the "Must be drawn & quartered by the feminists" category.

[Wolfshade]

Random quote:

"It is not as if the man is dangerous, you know. He's very English. If he goes over the edge, the worst outward sign will probably be that his grammar will deteriorate"

[Bitrider]

Random quote:

"It is not as if the man is dangerous, you know. He's very English. If he goes over the edge, the worst outward sign will probably be that his grammar will deteriorate"

How very dare you...

[bfmusashi]

People who complain about problems they don't want to fix are adorable.

[Psychosplodge]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n5PahQUJulo/UXd_ARNa9RI/AAAAAAAAHrs/Wq22cHj7XE8/s1600/demotivationals-3.jpg

[Wolfshade]

Sometimes though ambiguity causes people to make corrections that are wrong.

For instance:

Birmingham Universities' Guild of Whatever

1. Now this is saying that there is a Guild of Whatever owned by the Universities in Birmingham. (i.e. there are two or more universties)
2. Now if people are unaware of there being more than one university in Birmingham or that the GoW is affliated to both this is often miss-corrected to "Birmingham University's Guild of Whatever".
3. Now if people are truely stupid they misscorrect it to "Birmingham Universities Guild of Whatever" "since plurals show possession durrrrrrrrrr".

Unfortunately, you do get people who make the assumption that #2 is right and look dimmly on it when it is written down when infact it is #1.

The BUGoW may or may not exist

[Wildeybeast]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n5PahQUJulo/UXd_ARNa9RI/AAAAAAAAHrs/Wq22cHj7XE8/s1600/demotivationals-3.jpg

That's a spelling problem, not a grammatical one. Though I do like the child's despairing response, there is hope for the youth of today.

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah, but it made me lol :D

[Wolfshade]

I want to know where that guy got the invisible water melon he is so obviously carying

[Bitrider]

I got one for you.

When using the word 'grey' to denote levels of change or separation between two states or where understanding may not be absolute, is it redundant to say 'degrees of grey'? Would be better to just say 'this a grey area'? Or maybe just some better term or phrase to use?

[Psychosplodge]

Shades of grey, but a crappy psuedo-author ruined the term...

Plus the majority of the this thread speaks actual English so the answer might not really work for you in florida.
Is it true that you don't have the word "fortnight"?

[Wildeybeast]

They don't even know the difference between pants and trousers splodgie. They're a lost cause. As to Bit's question, 'shades' would be the correct term since you are talking about colours. 'This is a grey area' would also be fine.

[Bitrider]

Shades of grey, but a crappy psuedo-author ruined the term...

Plus the majority of the this thread speaks actual English so the answer might not really work for you in florida.
Is it true that you don't have the word "fortnight"?

We only use it every two weeks...or so. /always the helpful one you are. :P


They don't even know the difference between pants and trousers splodgie. They're a lost cause. As to Bit's question, 'shades' would be the correct term since you are talking about colours. 'This is a grey area' would also be fine.

Sounds good, thanks. Actually, Wallace and Gromit helped me with that distinction.

[Psychosplodge]

Ah so you figured out google :D

so this would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/970176_531661836871495_1940615577_n.jpg

[Wolfshade]

I got one for you.

When using the word 'grey' to denote levels of change or separation between two states or where understanding may not be absolute, is it redundant to say 'degrees of grey'? Would be better to just say 'this a grey area'? Or maybe just some better term or phrase to use?

I dislike "degrees of grey", I prefer the "shades of grey" as colours are in shades not degrees. In preference I would go for "this is a grey area". Though as I live in a black and white world I reject the whole premise of their not being an absolute right or wrong.

[Psychosplodge]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/429966_601034076582253_824101413_n.jpg

[Wildeybeast]

There are so many exceptions to the 'i before e' rule that we usually don't bother with it any more. It isn't particularly helpful.

[Chris*ta]

Is it true that you don't have the word "fortnight"?

Americans have to use the phrase "two weeks". Savages.

As for the I before E thing, it mostly works if you remember it as "I before E, except after C, when it sounds like (as if ;)) E". But that's too long for most people to remember, I guess.

[Chris*ta]

And I scored 8 out of 10.

I blame the fact that I speak Australian English. The may/might one I missed because I'd just use would. And the one with Hilary the sibling, really? You're describing someone as your sibling in front of them? No one would ever speak like that.