Anything less than 1500pts is not an Army, so DON'T start 2nd army till you have 1st!

[Kloud]

From my experiences in the gamming clubs I've been to, I often find a player approaching me, and asking if I'd like to play a game. This is great, I like to play, and I play to have fun. However, the players will say something like "I can do 1147pt of Orks." and I'm like "WTF?" What am I suppossed to do with that? Take one of my 1500 pt list and remove some things from it? Make a new list on the spot? Hell no. I've come this evening to play a game. I've made my army lists at home, I have nice printed out versions of them, I'm not wasting 20 min or 30 min of my valuable evening gaming time to write out a list.

You guys need to get your armies up to 1500pts. Also you guys at the game clubs need to set standard point levels that you play at you clubs. That way, you can make a 1500pt list, maybe a 1700pt list, an 1800 pt list, and a 2000pts list. Have the list made up, and in your army case, or army shoebox, or whatever. This way, you get to your game club, you see an opponent, you look at how much time you have to play, quickly whip out armies an play.

Now, some of you boys need to quit chasing the bloody codex creep, and some of you need to just focus. but I just plain don't understand the guys who have 1097pts of mostly painted Tau, 1232 pts of partially painted Imperial Guard, and now 927 points of partially assembled Spacewolves. PICK ONE ARMY, AND FINISH IT DAMMIT. Quit buying the newest army out everytime a new release comes.

Some of you guys seem like good guys, and I enjoy chatting with ya, but lets get some proper armies on the table, and then we got something to talk about.

[Aldramelech]

Blimey!

Perhaps its a cultural thing, but over here I wouldn't expect to turn up at a club and play a game anyway. Games are played by arrangement as a rule, so this does not happen.

Now the other part of what your saying is the whole unpainted figures debate, and I believe we've been there and done that quite alot already.

It is the nature of this hobby that people seem to lack focus sometimes, Id agree with you there, I'm as guilty as the next man (although I don't play with unpainted figures) but Ive learned to accept the things I cant change.

[sirrouga]

Well, they may play at a lower points than some others, I know for a while my friends and I played 1000 - 1250 games for quite some time. Or perhaps they haven't just found the army to call their own or just starting out. Most of what you were saying is more of a personal play style than something club related so its hard to generalize. Best advice is to work on trying to raise the points of the games and try and do larger games. My local game club works along the lines of showing up and seeing who is free to play games with standard games of either 1500 or 1750 and while we do smaller games for new players, we don't do them often at all.

Personally, I believe in "Play an army not a list" style of play in that I usually want an extra 500 - 1000 points of what I expect to actually play just so I have additional options as I make my lists right on the spot with what units I'm in the "mood" for. I'm also in that habit due to fact I'm often needing to switch between competitive, casual, and more tutorial styles of play depending on who is available for play. Granted I wouldn't do that in a tournament or similar setting, but I'm more of a casual player there for kicks and giggles than winning. I'm not to talk about painted models through. I enjoy assembling the models and playing the game, painting not so much but lets not get into that argument here. :P

[Aldramelech]

Same here. Ive brought enough to play 2000pts, but have more then that for "Options". It wouldn't be any fun to play the same list over and over.

[Dan-e]

I always make & bring an Army list of 1k, 1.5k and 2k when ever i go to my FLGS because i know some people just don't have the money or time to play larger games... personally i prefer around 1.5k games because it just means more options and a more tactical driven game.

i would only take issue with people who play random point numbers... 50 is the smallest unit i would count... 1050? ok... 1032? no way...

[Aldramelech]

But would a 1032 not count as a 1050 list? If I did a 1050 list but could only spend 1032 I wouldn't expect my opponent to match it.

[Miggidy Mack]

Well this game is actually tested at around 1500 points from what I've been told by guys like Jervis Johnson when I grilled him on the subject at the Chicago GD. I've never understood why 1850 is some odd standard "tournament" size. That must be the size where you can have everything you want and not leave anything at home or something. I like making tough decisions.

Frankly I think that 1000 points is about right for a pick up game. It's short enough that I still have time for another one if the first one isn't as fun as I would like it. I have a thin flat binder that has 6 lists at 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 1850 and 2k. Every time I play a pick up game I just randomly roll a d6 and pick one. Then I make notes after the game if I think the list needs changes. It's a lot of fun actually, refining that many lists and getting experience with a lot of different strategies.

If someone says "I can do 1132 of orks" I say, great... make a 1k list and lets go. This way they can optimize there list a little instead of just using everything.

[Aldramelech]

For an evening game I think 1000pts is about right. I do dislike playing larger games in a rush to finish. 2000pts is an all day game in my opinion (again relaxed, with breaks and time to chat about what happens)

[N0rdicNinja]

Are you incapable of playing a 1000 point game?

[Xas]

o boy, o boy you are still young on your way to greatness it seams.

1500points is barely a skirmish....

an "army" I call only conglomerates of 5000 points (the usual pieces you get in apok games. either 5k, 10k, 15k,...).

what you are calling an army is a detachment for me, ranging from 1500-2000 and usually having a predetermined role on the battlefield as part of an army (artillery detachment, ranged support, heavy assoult detachment, rapid assoult, ...).


if you are skileld and dont mess around you can play two single armies against each other games in a 8h day (saturday for me).


but other than that I fully support you. other than for teaching the game I wouldnt play anything below 1750 (tourney level at my place).




and for the monthly fad thing... even if I like an army which jsut got rereleased I usually wait 3-6months before starting it to both a) find out if I still like them when they are not the fad and b) dont isk to fall into this trap.

[Denzark]

I like 1500 points - it makes you think what you take. I played a lot of this in preparation for GW Grand tourney this year - most of my games were over well inside the 2hrs 15 given. I have set myself the target of getting my armies to 1500 before going on to the next (pile of unpainmted miniatures...)

But to point it out you sound like my wife!

[Morgrim]

1k is the standard size for pickup games here, with larger games generally the regulars and around the 1500 size. Smaller games are normally test lists or skirmishes and arranged beforehand.

Over 2k points needs the redshirts to agree, because it is a small store with rather limited table room, and marines aren't as common as hoard armies...

[Ivarr]

I actually prefer the game @ or under 1k or 3000+...we play a lot of 750 pointers...so I do not agree that under 1500 is not even an army. When we have time and plan ahead we play Apocalypse. I haven't played a "tournament sized" game in a while.

[Aegis]

Personally, I enjoy 1500 points as a game, even more so when I have less time. 2000 points is fun to play, and if I can take part in one, 4k+ is a great afternoon for me. But to call 1500 points not an army? I think you need to step back and consider the fact that not everyone can drop large sums of money at once to buy everything you need for 2000+ points.

Now, if this is just a poorly worded commentary on the flavour of the month type of gaming that others have mentioned, fine, but there are much better ways of raising such a criticism.

[Melissia]

Yeah? Well 2000 isn't a real army either by 40K standards. In the fluff, almost ALL battles are bigger.

[Aldramelech]

Is it me or is the original post deliberately antagonistic, possibly to generate discussion? There should be a prize for that ;)

[lobster-overlord]

There is a prize for that. It's being labeled a "troll"

Personally, I don't have a known number on most of my armies, I just buy models I like, and if it is a fieldable force, I'll use it, if not, if someone wants to play against it, I'll add it up and tell them what I don't have (FO wise that is).

In the end for me, points don't matter... I play Apoc mostly ;-)

[tallyrand]

Either the OP has a thorn in his paw, or he's being intentionally Trollish. Or there's always option C: he knows best as to how people should play the game, spent their money and time, and run their clubs. (Again the need for a Sarcasm Font is evident)

Maybe playing under 1500 points isn't a huge army, but it does not make it any less of a game, nor any less of a challenge. He sounds like he would rather not play at all than take a few minutes to whip up an army list by hand, which makes me think that whoever it was who couldn't field up to his standards, didn't miss out on too enjoyable a game.

[N0rdicNinja]

Either the OP has a thorn in his paw, or he's being intentionally Trollish. Or there's always option C: he knows best as to how people should play the game, spent their money and time, and run their clubs. (Again the need for a Sarcasm Font is evident)

Maybe playing under 1500 points isn't a huge army, but it does not make it any less of a game, nor any less of a challenge. He sounds like he would rather not play at all than take a few minutes to whip up an army list by hand, which makes me think that whoever it was who couldn't field up to his standards, didn't miss out on too enjoyable a game.

Agreed, people who would rather ***** and moan about your "inferiority" then simply partake in a game I put under the "elitist" tag and generally avoid them as a rule.

[tallyrand]

I wonder if he ran into This Guy (http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=191770.0)?

[Col.Gravis]

It's quite a common circumstance to run into at the open gaming night held locally on Thursdays and not unheard of at my local gaming club either - we do arrange games of course, but just as many tend to be pick up an play type affairs.

Thing is I don't see an issue if someone does'nt have 1500pts - though thats what my 'normal' pick up an play list is, someone has 1167pts? Great. Let's play a 1000pt game then - and would you look at that I pull out a 1000pt list I have stashed in my case!

[Ivarr]

Agreed, people who would rather ***** and moan about your "inferiority" then simply partake in a game I put under the "elitist" tag and generally avoid them as a rule.

I agree 100%, but an gaming elitist is the saddest thing on the planet...it is like campaigning for "king of the nerds", but Bill Gates has that one wrapped up so it's more like screaming in your pillow...might make ya feel better, but what did you really accomplish.

Play the game. Have fun. Don't be a tool.

[fuzzbuket]

I personaly like 500pts/1000pts nice skirmish doubles game
nice quick list, great for newbies, or if played solo 1 troops choice+1hq foc nice narritve army that can be played in 30mins-1hour

my o.o2gbp
fuzzbuket

[Melissia]

Thing is I don't see an issue if someone does'nt have 1500pts - though thats what my 'normal' pick up an play list is, someone has 1167pts? Great. Let's play a 1000pt game then - and would you look at that I pull out a 1000pt list I have stashed in my case!

This is my own position. Why should I care? I've prepared for lots of points values.

[Aldramelech]

I enjoy any level of game. Points does not automatically = Fun. Some of the most enjoyable games have been 1000pt or under. Some off the attitudes towards new players described are shocking........

[Jive Tyrant]

Well the obvious answer to the OP is to make them play a 1500pt game with whatever they have - so if they only have 1167pts they are probably going to lose, go home crying and make sure they bring enough points the next time.

(Note to everyone except the OP: I am joking)

[Lord Azaghul]

I enjoy any level of game. Points does not automatically = Fun. Some of the most enjoyable games have been 1000pt or under. Some off the attitudes towards new players described are shocking........

Agreed. THere are lots of different tactical oppurtiniies depending upon the battle size. And they can give you good ideas for larger battles
A while backTo switch things up a tau friend and myself (guard) deceded to play a 2k game - Nothing with a vehicle armour rating permitting.

He had lots of suits, fire warirors and kroot.
I had a good full platoon, a bunch of ratlings and Stormtroopers

It was a blast: Ended on being alot of close quarters infantry fighting. His steal suits murdering were squads of men, until a commisar led a unit up to 'em and ripped to to pieces! My lascannons kept is big suits pinning in cover the whole game - lots of stuff died!
Down side: the game took like 4 1/2 hours, we called it at the end of turn 5. It was an objectives game, and ended in a draw!

[Lerra]

Doubles games (1k each, 2k per side) are some of my favorite games, and it's a good way to deal with the players who only have small armies if you prefer larger games. 2v1 (1k each versus 2k) is also a fun game, or 1k each vs. 1850 if you like a challenge.

I played a 4-way 800 point game the other day, and it was awesome. We were all playing glass-cannon lists, and by round 4 two of the players had tabled eachother (literally), and the only models left on the table were 2 fire warriors and Sammael with all weapons destroyed. Sammael repeatedly turboboost tank-shocked the fire warriors to try to make them run off the table, until one fire warrior got a lucky up-the-*** shot at Sammael and wrecked him. It was the most fun I'd had in a while.

[xxxjammerxxx]

As long as you have a HQ choice and two troop choices you have an army.

People are always about the point values of an army, but as long as you fill these basic requirements, any thing after that is a bonus. I have fought many of a battle with this minimum requirement and found out that the point values really don't matter. If you go through all the different codexes you will find that the point values for 2 troops and 1 HQ are about the same anyway.

[Mike X]

From my experiences in the gamming clubs I've been to, I often find a player approaching me, and asking if I'd like to play a game. This is great, I like to play, and I play to have fun. However, the players will say something like "I can do 1147pt of Orks." and I'm like "WTF?" What am I suppossed to do with that? Take one of my 1500 pt list and remove some things from it? Make a new list on the spot? Hell no. I've come this evening to play a game. I've made my army lists at home, I have nice printed out versions of them, I'm not wasting 20 min or 30 min of my valuable evening gaming time to write out a list.

You guys need to get your armies up to 1500pts. Also you guys at the game clubs need to set standard point levels that you play at you clubs. That way, you can make a 1500pt list, maybe a 1700pt list, an 1800 pt list, and a 2000pts list. Have the list made up, and in your army case, or army shoebox, or whatever. This way, you get to your game club, you see an opponent, you look at how much time you have to play, quickly whip out armies an play.

Now, some of you boys need to quit chasing the bloody codex creep, and some of you need to just focus. but I just plain don't understand the guys who have 1097pts of mostly painted Tau, 1232 pts of partially painted Imperial Guard, and now 927 points of partially assembled Spacewolves. PICK ONE ARMY, AND FINISH IT DAMMIT. Quit buying the newest army out everytime a new release comes.

Some of you guys seem like good guys, and I enjoy chatting with ya, but lets get some proper armies on the table, and then we got something to talk about.

I agree with everything said here.

I have both 1500pts and 2000pts lists, and anything less than 1500pts is dumb.

And yes, wayyy too many people in this hobby have short attention spans, often moving from one project to another before finishing anything. So friggin' annoying.

[Kloud]

My intention as the OP was not to Troll. Perhaps I should explain my situation a little, and then you guys may see my frustration.

I lived in one city, and and we began a gaming club there. I was in on the ground floor, and I contributed alot to the growth of that gaming club. That gaming club for awhile was just a rockin, and is still doing well.

I have moved to another city. (both these cities are fairly small.)

There is a gaming club in my new city, but it refuses to grow.

Half the guys here are content playing with unpainted armies, and partially unassembled miniatures. ("Oh that guy with no arms has a Plasma gun.")
Some of the guys will buy one army, get maybe a 1000pts, think they suck, and will sell them off or put them away never to be seen again, and then get the newest army out, get there *** kicked with it, then they repeat that cycle.
Alot of the guys have multiple armies, but they are all between 700 to 1200 pts. And usually the 1200 pt army is less than 1/2 painted, and maybe about 85% fully assembled. (Oh, and don't forget the Super-heavy they bought. like WTF??)
All of these guys are content to play on bare white plastic folding tables. with minimal terrain.
The clubs selection of Terrain, is made up almost entirely of some of my terrain that I have left at the church.
The club plays at 2 places, the Comic store (The only GW supplier in town), and a church basement on Thursday nights. The idea of playing anywhere else seems to wierd these guys out.
Acxtually they don't so much play, as gather. They gather, and all talk rules about what is overpowered, and what ever else they have read on the forums. (They don't play hardly at all.)

Now I have a proper 4X6 table in my basement, that I can even turn into a 6X8 for apoc games. I can even cover the Apoc game table with an appropriate level of terrain. A couple of the guys have been over, and they loved it. I was hopin it would inspire some of these guys a little, give em something to strive for, but nope.

I want these guys to grow as players, I want to have fun games, but ARGGGHHHHHH????? (Just beating my head against the wall.)

[Mike X]

I hear you Kloud, here's my experience:

I had a coworker who was big into D&D v3.5, and I often talked with him about it, because fantasy and role playing things interest me.

Well, one day it came up that I play 40K. He said he played it too, in a past sense. He said he bought the 5th edition box set with a friend, and split the minis. He had all the Space Marine models, but sold them soon after.

Well, after finding out that I play, he decides to get back into it.

Within THREE FRIGGIN' WEEKS, the kid decides he's going to play Space Marines, and buys battleforces and other boxes. Then, nah, he's not doing SMs, he's going to play Witch Hunters. So he buys a few boxes of those. But wait, still not his style. He then, FINALLY settles on Tyranids. And as far as I know, roughly 5 months later, he's still with Tyranids.

It was the joke of the store, and still is, that the kid went through three armies in three weeks whereas it took me 3.5 years to complete my own army.

However, he hasn't done anything with his minis aside from assemble a couple. Most of what he got was second hand, and it's really sad to see Broodlords with missing limbs. They just don't seem as threatening.

I also have a few e-friends who are CONSTANTLY revolving into new projects without completing their last.

It's annoying.

Here's what I expect in a hobby like this: you collect, build, paint, and play your minis.

I personally prefer games of 1500 or 2000 points, but I can totally understand if others enjoy a 1000-point game. Proxying is okay to an extent. If you lost or misplaced or broke a certain model, then sure we can proxy it. But jeez, don't proxy in every game: I expect that unofficial unit to be replaced eventually.

But things like "Oh I have a 564-point army" or "I'm going to proxy 75% of my army" are total cankers in the hobby.

[Aldramelech]

Put that way, yes I can understand your frustration.