What are the problems with this idea?

[YorkNecromancer]

I like walkers. I like honkin' great big walkers. So I obviously like the Riptide.

So here's an idea I've been mulling over - it's pure theory at this stage, because I don't think it will work, but still...

At 2000 points, you get six Elite slots.

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

What are the strengths of fielding six Riptides? What are the counters? What units do you take to support them? Do you fully kit them out with stimulant injectors and Shielded Missile Drones?

I think that properly done, such an army could be absolutely horrifying to behold, but I'm not sure.

Opinions?

[Sonikgav]

1260 points for 6 with Accelerators, interceptor and Skyfire. The advantage is you get 6 S8 large blasts a turn. Highly mobile and resilient but a big target.

On a few I would add other wargear like Stim Injectors etc to mix it up (infact id only leave Skyfire on 2 but Interceptor on about 4)

[jgebi]

I play necrons, I dare you to. No please be my guest and I'll see how this goes down

But tactically this would mess me up something chronic, You'd be killing 3 whole squads (if your lucky) a turn nothing can come back from that... ok maybe a necron, whats the AP at?

[Sonikgav]

Most of it is AP2 I believe. Not to mention the Riptides have a tl Plasma/Fusion/Missile as well as the Battlecannon.

[YorkNecromancer]

This is what got me about the idea. The problem with the Riptide is the fact it's a massive fire magnet - but what if you mitigated that by having so many of the damn things your opponent doesn't know where to focus fire? Even three Riptides can be dealt with, but six is just an abhorrent threat regardless of what your list is. Mix it up with some pathfinders for Markerlight shots and cheap, disposable Kroot to hold objectives in the late game, it seems like a workable idea that's totally new.

The 2+/T6 combo is seriously vulnerable only to things like massed plasma fire, and while that IS the current meta shift, I can't see that you can field enough of it to kill all six Riptides quickly enough, especially if they have Feel No Pain. Standard antitank just won't cut it as it doesn't have the weight of fire necessary to drop them.

Yes, you are vulnerable to massed str4 fire, but with the jet pack and longer range weaponry, with careful maneuvering, you could be functionally invulnerable to it as it never gets in range.

I'm sure there must be a hard counter to the idea, but at this stage I can't think of it.

[Pendragon38]

Only thing I can think that may slow them down is some Thunder fire cannons

[kyfer]

There'll likely be a counter soon, but not yet as far as I know. That is insanity, just want to see 6 Riptides on a battlefield for sheer logic defiance lol haven't seen one yet :(

[Sonikgav]

The counter is Jaws of the Worldwolf and other Initiative based tests or Forceweapons. Same as any Monstrous creature really. Its just harder to get near to.

[Caitsidhe]

The counter is Jaws of the Worldwolf and other Initiative based tests or Forceweapons. Same as any Monstrous creature really. Its just harder to get near to.

Not that hard... most Space Wolves just drop the Rune Priest next to you with a Drop Pod and take out big, nasty lines of troops or choice items.

[YorkNecromancer]

That is insanity, just want to see 6 Riptides on a battlefield for sheer logic defiance l

It'd be brilliant, wouldn't it? I can't imagine it'd win any tournaments, by sweet mercy you wouldn't be expecting it.


The counter is Jaws of the Worldwolf and other Initiative based tests or Forceweapons. Same as any Monstrous creature really. Its just harder to get near to.

Any Tau player who lets an enemy get into assault, well, they're doing it wrong. Unless, you know, their enemy is better than them, obviously. I suppose a Dreadknight with it's massive sword would be the real hard counter. That and maybe squads of 10 Kabalite Trueborn with Splinter Carbines in a Raider with Splinter Racks. Or five with Splinter Carbines in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannon.

I had forgotten JOTWW. I feel for the Librarian with that power who runs into this list - he'd be such a priority target he'd be deader than disco by the end of turn 1.

[DarkLink]

Pretending that it's impossible to get into assault with a competent tau player is silly.

[Caitsidhe]

Pretending that it's impossible to get into assault with a competent tau player is silly.

Agreed. Assault is difficult in 6th but hardly impossible. I manage it all the time.

[jifel]

If I went to a tournament and saw that, I would calmly rip my army list in half in front of my opponent, then write a new one, just for him, with Ten Tervigons. 10 Tervigons would roflstomp this and any other list. Quite frankly, I don't think it would ever lose, except in a KP game. And even then I only start with Ten units.

[Sonikgav]

Tau could beat it, though admittedly not with what would be considered a Standard list. Hows 120 Kroot Snipers sound? Or Sniper Drones? Theyre pretty much perfect monstrous creature killers.

[rpricew]

If I went to a tournament and saw that, I would calmly rip my army list in half in front of my opponent, then write a new one, just for him, with Ten Tervigons. 10 Tervigons would roflstomp this and any other list. Quite frankly, I don't think it would ever lose, except in a KP game. And even then I only start with Ten units.

You would start with 16 units... 4 HQ Tervigons, 6 Troop Tervigons & 6 Troop Termagant Broods :)

[GrauGeist]

10 Tervigons? Meh.

How 'bout 1 FOC with 20 Veterans in Chimeras backed by 9 Demolishers? 9 S10 AP2 templates per turn with AV14/13 easily beats 6 S8 AP2 templates.

[OrksOrksOrks]

The game obviously isn't balanced for play at 2000 points any more so I don't know why you'd ever even play that

[Sonikgav]

Yea theres a reasons most Tourneys I go to seem to be set at 1800-1999 points.

[OrksOrksOrks]

For all the hooting that competitive players do about how list building is important, they sure only think about point values where they can bring all of their toys to bear, I think 1000 points is a lot more interesting, you have to make choices and sacrifices, can't rely of redundancy of units and the games are quicker so you can fit more games in.

[Demonus]

It'd be brilliant, wouldn't it? I can't imagine it'd win any tournaments, by sweet mercy you wouldn't be expecting it.



Any Tau player who lets an enemy get into assault, well, they're doing it wrong. Unless, you know, their enemy is better than them, obviously. I suppose a Dreadknight with it's massive sword would be the real hard counter. That and maybe squads of 10 Kabalite Trueborn with Splinter Carbines in a Raider with Splinter Racks. Or five with Splinter Carbines in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannon.

I had forgotten JOTWW. I feel for the Librarian with that power who runs into this list - he'd be such a priority target he'd be deader than disco by the end of turn 1.

Unless he was in a drop pod :)

[Wildcard]

I would go for 6x Nemesis Dreadknights with jump packs and swords. Possibly heavy incinerators to toast the kroots. 4x squads of 5man GKSS in reserve, dropping as near as possible to the objectives, and as late as possible (atleast after the riptides are gone).

Main strategy is to deploy all 6 NDKs on the table, depending on the deployment zones and how the riptides are set. Either go straight in or use the Shunt to get close to riptides. Then deepstrike the Strike Squads to objectives

[GrauGeist]

I think 1000 points is a lot more interesting, you have to make choices and sacrifices, can't rely of redundancy of units and the games are quicker so you can fit more games in.

1000? I prefer to play an even tighter 750.

[Chris Copeland]

Ye Gods, I would LOVE to see someone field six Riptides (fully painted). I'd buy 'em a beer! That would be SO cool to see!

[Defenestratus]

6 squads of 3 scatter laser war walkers with 4 guide/fortune farseers behind an aegis line.

Thats 144 strength 6 shots, most rerolling to hit. Probably wont stand up to your riptide list but its still something that would give people bad dreams at night :P

[GrauGeist]

The 9 Demolishers I suggested earlier would laugh at those War Walkers.

[Daemonette666]

4 Bloodthirsters, mass amounts of Horrors and flamers, backed up by Daemonettes and Seekers who rend a fair bit in close combat.

One option is that.

Lots of Nurgle Obliterators backed up by squads of Tzeentch Terminators led by Abaddon, A squad or 2 of Chosen with Plasma guns and maybe a Helldrake that I can run along an edge of the board and use cover to keep out of Line of Sight and then swoop over your supporting troops to reduce the amount of marker lights you get. The force would probably have a dark Apostle and maybe a WarpSmith to reduce the cover saves your Riptides in cover get. The bulk of the Terminators will have Power Axes, or Power Fists, and they will have Combi-Meltas where possible to make mince meat of the Riptides.

make an Specialist one shot army and anyone can come up with a specialist one shot army to counter it.

I have even worked out a few balanced lists with IG allies and lots of Indirect artillery (that will hide in cover) and have Obliterators and Close Combat troops to support them. They have a nice group of cheap stuff to hide and hold objectives, and if you can not see troops hiding behind ruins without windows, on the bottom floor, then all the better. Riptides die easily when they get in close combat. I know they go down hard, because I have taken down other very hard to kill monstrous creatures myself. My Abaddon killed 2 Carnifexes, 2 Trygons, a tooled up Tyranid Lord, and a shooty Tyranid Lord in close combat.

The same can be done against Dreadknights, and Riptides, and since Riptides are not Characters, I do not even have to challenge them. They can be taken out by My Warlord, and his Retinue of Terminators in close combat very easily. Since you have the Support fire rule and defensive grenades for the most part in your army, it is worth my while to multi-charge your units with more than one unit and tie them up. It will be expensive, but it can take out a role specific army like this quite easily. Many players do not take Fliers now a days, just ways to counter them.

Your army needs to be more balanced. The games I win more often are the ones where I use a balanced army., so I can handle many of the things my opponents throw against me, and I generally like to have redundancy. You will have an Achilles heel in your army every time, as you can not design an army to handle all enemies. that would cost too much, and the enemy would have more units to take your specific counters out of the game.

You need more marker light units, more scoring units, backed up by the riptides, special characters, etc. A vehicle with a squad of troops who rush up and deploy to hold objectives is a good idea, as is the skyray missile battery to shoot indirect.

I believe 6th edition is about creating balanced armies that can be used in multi-missions and units that can be used in for different roles such as objective taking, close combat, fire support, anti-air/anti-armour, fearless horde units to wear the enemy down, etc. The 5th edition mentality of designing your army around kill stars has gone by the wayside, and so many of my opponents who stick with this way of designing armies generally lose the game, as I know how to counter them, and concentrate on their troops, and feed them cheap fearless hordes, while killing their scoring units and taking the objectives, and targeting the biggest threats and combine fire on them.

A balanced army has too many big threats to be able to handle and the 6 riptide army is easily taken out, by killing off a riptide or 2 each turn, and making sure your support units and scoring units are killed off.

[YorkNecromancer]

I believe 6th edition is about creating balanced armies that can be used in multi-missions and units that can be used in for different roles such as objective taking, close combat, fire support, anti-air/anti-armour, fearless horde units to wear the enemy down, etc. The 5th edition mentality of designing your army around kill stars has gone by the wayside, and so many of my opponents who stick with this way of designing armies generally lose the game, as I know how to counter them, and concentrate on their troops, and feed them cheap fearless hordes, while killing their scoring units and taking the objectives, and targeting the biggest threats and combine fire on them.

This theoryhammer is nice and all, but the fact remains, a killstar army would be a fascinating thing to see deployed, and sweet mercy it would be a hellish thing to face off against if you came expecting just the "balanced army" meta.

That seems to me to be its greatest strength: no-one actually expects someone to show up with an army THAT insane. (Because I'm not denying the 6 Riptide idea is stupid and likely to fail at all).

The more I think of it, the more I wonder why we don't see more of these armies - ones where someone does something like try to cram four Bloodthirsters into a list, not because they expect it to win, but because HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?! I CAME EXPECTING T3 NO-SAVE DAEMONS!! SWEET MERCY NO!!!

It would be amazing. :)

Just seems to me the people who moan "Oh, 6th is broken at 2000 points" have been kind of lazy - they've found their little meta and are happy with it. Which is a shame - there's a whole other game screaming out to be played, and I have seen NO intelligent discussion of it anywhere. It's like in the days of Streetfighter when everyone just picked Ken because he was well-rounded and easy to use and always won... apart from that one guy who picked Hugo and had a real laugh.

[Xenith]

Not that hard... most Space Wolves just drop the Rune Priest next to you with a Drop Pod and take out big, nasty lines of troops or choice items.

Regarding the RP in drop pod idea...you forget that riptides have interceptor.

You drop that priest in, he gets a S8 AP2 pieplate on his head for every riptide that can see him. You just gifted first blood (and warlord) in your own turn.

After a bit of brainstorming, there is little that I feel can deal with a riptide (as BA), without devoting large amounts of your own troops to it. When facing one, you can ignore it.

When facing 6...you die.

[Pendragon38]

[CENTER]I wouldn't mind playing against that many riptides it sounds like a challenge.....and I except. If its cool with Yorknecromancer I would like to play test this army against mine at my flgs this Friday night. Then I'll post a battle report.

Perry

[YorkNecromancer]

That would be amazing! Do it, and let us know how it goes! :)

[DarkLink]

Regarding the RP in drop pod idea...you forget that riptides have interceptor.

You drop that priest in, he gets a S8 AP2 pieplate on his head for every riptide that can see him. You just gifted first blood (and warlord) in your own turn.

After a bit of brainstorming, there is little that I feel can deal with a riptide (as BA), without devoting large amounts of your own troops to it. When facing one, you can ignore it.

When facing 6...you die.

While this is theoretically possible, a good drop pod player can get around that. Drop in the Priest last, which means your other drop pods go untouched. Disembark from the Drop Pod so that the Pod blocks LOS to all the Riptides you can't hit with JotWW to minimize incoming firepower. String out a 9-man squad in front of him, and you can absorb plenty of firepower before it actually reaches the Rune Priest. That way, you either force the Tau player to waste Interceptor shots, or use them on something other than the Rune Priest. Plus then next turn the Tau player loses most of his shooting thanks to Interceptor.

So, sure, it's nice to say that 6 Interceptor Riptides auto-kill drop pods, but it's also not necessarily very realistic.

[Pendragon38]

That would be amazing! Do it, and let us know how it goes! :)
I will need a 2,000pt list from you or someone from BoLs loungers by Friday.

Perry

[rtmaitreya]

Just a note that interceptor fire is at the end of the enemy movement phase. You sit back and watch everything, then pick and choose your target for interception.

[Demonus]

Can also throw a wolfguard with ss in that unit out front to suck up those ap2 pie plate wounds. Look out sir also helps, or....2 RP with JoWW :) And who makes a RP their Warlord? Crazytalk!

[DarkLink]

Who need 2 when you can take 4. Or 6. Or can you get 8 without duplicating stuff?

[Pendragon38]

Anyone got a tau list for 2000pts for this riptide spam. So I can play test it to night

[Da Gargoyle]

OK so what am I missing here? Why the extra elite slots for a 2000 pt game? I that house rules or something?

In the mean time it would seem that your biggest problem is the 5 wounds thing because there is no instant death issue for Riptides. But 3 Falcons kitted out with pulse lasers and bright lance to start off with. Then 3 Vypers with bright lance. Then 4 Guardian squads with Star cannon Farseer with mind war, you would have to be lucky but you could take a single RipTide out in one turn with mind war.

I have not got my spreadsheet handy for points cost but I would be using snipers for their firewarrior squads and wave serpents with Storm Guardians for claiming objectives and possibly a bunch of fire dragons in a flank attack.

Have you ever seen a 2000 point IG force? My son does a full company with four squads & heavy weapons team. Two teams of las cannon could work their way along the line, while the infantry squads move forward.

[White Tiger88]

OK so what am I missing here? Why the extra elite slots for a 2000 pt game? I that house rules or something?

In the mean time it would seem that your biggest problem is the 5 wounds thing because there is no instant death issue for Riptides. But 3 Falcons kitted out with pulse lasers and bright lance to start off with. Then 3 Vypers with bright lance. Then 4 Guardian squads with Star cannon Farseer with mind war, you would have to be lucky but you could take a single RipTide out in one turn with mind war.

I have not got my spreadsheet handy for points cost but I would be using snipers for their firewarrior squads and wave serpents with Storm Guardians for claiming objectives and possibly a bunch of fire dragons in a flank attack.

Have you ever seen a 2000 point IG force? My son does a full company with four squads & heavy weapons team. Two teams of las cannon could work their way along the line, while the infantry squads move forward.

2000pt + games = double force chart...........

[DarkLink]

Dark Eldar do lance spam much, much, much better than Eldar do.

[Da Gargoyle]

Thanks for the answer

I just re-read my codex and have found the most dangerous option for Eldar on Tau. D-Cannon artillery units. In 2000 points you could field 2 units of 3 on top of 3 Falcons and a WL with star cannon. D-Cannon = Barrage on a grav platform with W on 2+ , AP2, 24" range 2 blast per shot from each gun. OH yeah, instant death on a roll of 6 to wound. Then the other stuff mentioned above with 1 - 2 Wave serpent with Scatter laser for the infantry. I would drop the vypers for the wave serpents.

The one thing Eldar have is a plethora of hvy options

[apahllo]

Can also throw a wolfguard with ss in that unit out front to suck up those ap2 pie plate wounds. Look out sir also helps, or....2 RP with JoWW :) And who makes a RP their Warlord? Crazytalk!
Jaws of the motha flippin world wolf. I have played against 4 riptides and not 1 has even gotten to breathe!
But 6 sounds like 2 much for me, on tactics and the wallet...