1850 Deathwing: comments requested and welcomed

[Chris Copeland]

1850 Pts - Dark Angels Roster

Belial leading 10 Deathwing Knights and three squads of Termies. The Termie Sergeants have lightning claws and the rest of them have TH/SS. Each squad has a cyclone missile launcher. There are three Rapier batteries behind an ADL (with a quad gun). Lastly, there are some Ravenwing bikes to guide the teleporting termies down onto the battlefield. That's my idea, anyway.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Cheers. Cope


Total Roster Cost: 1850


HQ: Belial (1#, 190 pts)
1 Belial, 190 pts


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44


Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (9#, 180 pts)
3 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 180 pts = 3 * 60


Elite: Deathwing Knights (10#, 475 pts)
9 Deathwing Knights, 475 pts = 9 * 46 (base cost 46) + Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven 10 + Knight Master 51


: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
1 Aegis Defence Lines, 50 pts
1 Gun Emplacement, 50 pts = (base cost 0 + Quad-gun 50)


Fast Attack: Ravenwing Attack Squadron (3#, 110 pts)
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 0 pts
2 Ravenwing Biker, 100 pts = 2 * 27 (base cost 27) + Meltagun x2 20 + Ravenwing Sergeant 36
1 Ravenwing Sergeant, 10 pts = (base cost 0 + Combi-Plasmagun 10)


Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.17 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Named or Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; b-2. Levels of Alliance: Battle Brothers
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules


Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 1 (0 - 3)
Troops: 3 (2 - 6)
Fast: 1 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 1 (0 - 3)
Fort: 1 (0 - 1)


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[Caitsidhe]

1850 Pts - Dark Angels Roster

Belial leading 10 Deathwing Knights and three squads of Termies. The Termie Sergeants have lightning claws and the rest of them have TH/SS. Each squad has a cyclone missile launcher. There are three Rapier batteries behind an ADL (with a quad gun). Lastly, there are some Ravenwing bikes to guide the teleporting termies down onto the battlefield. That's my idea, anyway.

The only effective anti-air is the Quad Gun. I prefer a minimum of two overlapping methods of dealing with air power. You are, perhaps, less vulerable to planes and such because you are mostly a Terminator "in your face" kind of force. Even so, it worries me. Is this a GT list?

Also, if you are able to give one of the Terminators a Heavy Flamer in your squads it would go a long way. I'm not familiar enough with Deathwing to know if that is an option, but against a lot of evolving gun lines, you need the Drop and Pop to cut down on that withering volume of fire.

[Power Klawz]

I'm not aware of any flyers that can really run roughshod over terminators. Maybe vector striking monstrous creatures?

I assume that deployment and the initial turn will be very important for this list. You're only going to get one shot at that deathwing assault and if your ravenwing get shot to hell or end up in the wrong place you might face some unfavorable teleport scatter. It would be a pretty bad thing to wind up too far away from your enemy and spend the rest of the battle running around trying to catch up to things that are doing their darnedest to keep away from the hulking death machines.

I think this is mitigated to some extent by Belial though right? Doesn't he get a perfect deep strike no matter what?

I think you might run into some lists that can table you by halfway through the first turn, before you even get your deathwing assault. You have a very low model count before the termies arrive. (Necrons can probably do it.)

[Caitsidhe]

You would be surprised about the effect aircraft can have on Terminators. :) There are plenty with twin-linked Lascannons and/or other AP-2 Weaponry. My own Helldrakes may not get to ignore the 2+ save they they add greatly to the volume of saves that have to be made. Last time I fought Kerstan my Helldrakes kept busy with other targets because I assumed they would be ineffectual. I have played several other Terminator-spam lists now and have found that the Helldrakes contributed in a more than satsifactory way. They may not destroy Terminators fast but being pretty much immune to Terminator-spam armies, they had all the time in the world.

I also found Soul Blaze did kill the odd Terminator from time to time. It was just another little addition to the number of saves the small squads have to make.

[Caitsidhe]

You would be surprised about the effect aircraft can have on Terminators. :) There are plenty with twin-linked Lascannons and/or other AP-2 Weaponry. My own Helldrakes may not get to ignore the 2+ save they they add greatly to the volume of saves that have to be made. Last time I fought Kerstan my Helldrakes kept busy with other targets because I assumed they would be ineffectual. I have played several other Terminator-spam lists now and have found that the Helldrakes contributed in a more than satsifactory way. They may not destroy Terminators fast but being pretty much immune to Terminator-spam armies, they had all the time in the world.

I also found Soul Blaze did kill the odd Terminator from time to time. It was just another little addition to the number of saves the small squads have to make.


My own view if this is a list for your GT is that you bring a small contingent of allies, (your Gray Knights) to get their bird in on your side as well as some units that can instant death the odd Monstrous creature. In the grander scheme of things you have too few options.

[Chris Copeland]

Yes, this is the list I'm considering for the GT... it depends on how much painting I can get done between now and then. I will look at the allies idea (and all other ideas)... I'm still new to DA... cheers... Cope

[Power Klawz]

I just mean an aircraft that would, for some reason, be specifically deadly to terminators. Of course you're still going to kill them with enough shots fired, I just mean that they're just as survivable against aircraft mounted weapons as they are against ground based ones, especially with storm shields. Unless you're facing full on 'Cron air your opponent will at most be toting 3 flyers, and for those 3 flyers he likely had to gut a significant portion of his force. 500 or so points worth of flyers will kill some termies to be sure, but they won't kill nearly as many termies as 500 points of rapid firing, footslogging infantry by sheer difference in fire volume.

I think the cheap anti-air concession in the form of the quad gun should be plenty, as those termies are probably not going to get gibbed in a single round of strafing and, if played properly, they should be in close quarters bashing skulls in for tha majority of the game anyways.

[Caitsidhe]

I just mean an aircraft that would, for some reason, be specifically deadly to terminators. Of course you're still going to kill them with enough shots fired, I just mean that they're just as survivable against aircraft mounted weapons as they are against ground based ones, especially with storm shields. Unless you're facing full on 'Cron air your opponent will at most be toting 3 flyers, and for those 3 flyers he likely had to gut a significant portion of his force. 500 or so points worth of flyers will kill some termies to be sure, but they won't kill nearly as many termies as 500 points of rapid firing, footslogging infantry by sheer difference in fire volume.

I don't disagree. If anyone can get by without any or going light on AA it would be a list like this. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea. I'm not sold on lists that are nearly all Terminators (or all Terminator in some cases). He has his artillery line and that is something. It just looks to me like he has only one way to win a game. He has to reach his opponent, period.

The model count is too low to try and just camp objective and outlast.


I think the cheap anti-air concession in the form of the quad gun should be plenty, as those termies are probably not going to get gibbed in a single round of strafing and, if played properly, they should be in close quarters bashing skulls in for tha majority of the game anyways.

Perhaps. I've fought that list and a couple like it, a couple of times now, and it suffices to say that very few, perhaps one in ten, Terminators make it to close combat.

[Power Klawz]

Perhaps. I've fought that list and a couple like it, a couple of times now, and it suffices to say that very few, perhaps one in ten, Terminators make it to close combat.

This is kind of what I was trying to hint at. Honestly I don't play enough games to be able to state unequivocally that this will happen, but just thinking about it a bit and I always come to that conclusion. When you go so heavy on footslogging bruisers it doesn't really matter how survivable they are, because really at best you still have a 1 in 6 chance per wound of taking one in the eye, and your opponent is going to do his best to keep the hell away from your murder squad, and since they're not exactly speedy its not exactly hard to pull that off. Toss a sacrificial unit into the path of the murder machines and then plink away for 5 turns until there's one guy left holding the severed torso of his squadmate in his arms, cursing the emperor for abandoning him in his hour of need etc. etc.

If anything, this makes my caveat in my previous post, "if played properly..." something of an impossible goal I guess.

I've seen a few all termy lists posted up here in the past few months and I always wonder why someone would do such a thing. The weaknesses are obvious and crippling. Its been said since the first copy of the new DA codex hit shelves that you won't be able to go all 'wing anymore and I feel that's a truism. You really need some boys in green and a good balance of both wings to pull it off. Too many terminators and you run into the issues discussed above, too many ravenwing and you'll get tabled because you simply don't have enough dudes and they're not THAT survivable.

[Aegwymourn]

... too many ravenwing and you'll get tabled because you simply don't have enough dudes and they're not THAT survivable.

The only thing I'll point out is that I think a lot of the 'wings get played because they are cool thematically and occasionly win just due to rock/paper/scissors/railgun/spock. People then forget that a lot of the meta lists out there tend to have good counters to both terminators (especially since draigowing was a fad) and bikers.

[Tepogue]

I recently sold my Deathwing, because in todays objective base game (if you play by rule book, then 5/6 missions are objective based) The game is won/lost on deployment. Your muscle is also your only scoring units. So a good opponent places objectives out in the open, in full view of his big guns. You cannot go can smash the opponents army and have time to get to the objective. The only mission Deathwing really excelled in for me, was Victory Points(Kill Points) and that was mainly due to how few points I had to give up.

[Chris Copeland]

Here is my updated list. It is composed of nine units: Belial, a big unit of Knights, a squad of scout snipers, three units of THSS termies led by Sgts with Lightning Claws, three units of Rapiers. Since there are nine units I can put up to five units in reserve (half rounded up). There is an ADL with a quad gun. The list is meant to be a beat stick. Belial and the Knights will come in on the 1st turn and the Assault Termies will come in via reserves following him. That's the idea, anyway...

Total Roster Cost: 1848

HQ: Belial (1#, 190 pts)
1 Belial, 190 pts

Elite: Deathwing Knights (10#, 475 pts)
9 Deathwing Knights, 475 pts = 9 * 46 (base cost 46) + Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven 10 + Knight Master 51

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 265 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4 20 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 44

: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
1 Aegis Defence Lines, 50 pts
1 Gun Emplacement, 50 pts = (base cost 0 + Quad-gun 50)

Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts

Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts

Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts

Troops: Scout Squad (9#, 108 pts)
8 Scout Squad, 96 pts = 8 * 12
1 Sergeant, 12 pts

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 1 (0 - 3)
Troops: 4 (2 - 6)
Fast: 0 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 3 (0 - 3)
Fort: 1 (0 - 1)

[Chris Copeland]

Here is my latest revision. It has Belial with a ten man unit of Knights. They come in on turn 1. There is one shooty Deathwing squad (with a Plasma Cannon) and two THSS Deathwing squads (those have Cyclones). All three squads are led by THSS Sergeants. They will all Deep Strik in on turns 2 and after (following Belial's teleport homer).

There is a ten man unit of Scout Snipers and three units of Rapiers. They can hide behind and AGL with a Quad Gun. The Scout Sergeant can man the Quad Gun. All of the Termies can start in reserve. http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/smilies/smile.png
Total Roster Cost: 1845


HQ: Belial (1#, 190 pts)
1 Belial, 190 pts


Elite: Deathwing Knights (10#, 475 pts)
9 Deathwing Knights, 475 pts = 9 * 46 (base cost 46) + Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven 10 + Knight Master 51


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 240 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 235 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Plasma Cannon x1 15 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 49
1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant, 5 pts + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 5


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 260 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x3 15 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 49
1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant, 5 pts + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 5


Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 265 pts)
4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 260 pts = 4 * 44 (base cost 44) + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x3 15 + Cyclone Missile Launcher x1 25 + Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 49
1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant, 5 pts + Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 5


Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 130 pts)
9 Scout Squad, 108 pts = 9 * 12
1 Sergeant, 22 pts = (base cost 12 + Upgrade to Veteran Sergeant 10)


Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts


Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts


Heavy Support: Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery (3#, 60 pts)
1 Space Marine Rapier Carrier Battery, 60 pts


: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
1 Aegis Defence Lines, 50 pts
1 Gun Emplacement, 50 pts = (base cost 0 + Quad-gun 50)

Thanks! Cope

[Caitsidhe]

I still think you are fixated on the theme and have too many Terminators, but then again... it IS a Deathwing force. This is better than you started with a few more options. I just keep rolling over in my head whether or not I think a Bastion might be better for you.

[Chris Copeland]

I'm worried that Bastions are deathtraps for troops...

[Caitsidhe]

I'm worried that Bastions are deathtraps for troops...

They are Deathtraps for certain kinds of troops. But as long as you have a good armor save you should be fine. I don't think I would ever put IG in one. Either way, the Aegis does it job against everything except those things which ignore cover.