Muppets who do not know the rules.

[energongoodie]

This is a very self indulgent thread and won't be popular but...

I was in my local GW store yesterday, which I really enjoy as a ruleand has excellent staff. However, I was getting madder and madder as the 3 games of 40k going on were being played by guys that had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME OR MANY OF THE RULES! IT WAS RIDICULOUS!
One of the regulars I'm friends with piped up and started helping out and was giving them advice. HE WAS ALSO WRONG!!! They were jumping Tau battlesuits 12", running troops who had failed a morale test off to the nearest table edge, not there own edge, ignoring terrain and land raiders for line of sight, ignoring the phases of the turn and had no knowledge of there own army lists or stats etc etc etc I kept my army in my bag and went home.
The regular staff were away and some guy was covering who was telling them they were right with all there wrong rules. Only one of them was a little kid, if he gets it wrong I do not mind, but over about 15 years old and you should be on it. They said they were not Newbs and played all the time. What happened to learning the rules and your army properly?

I hadn't been down to a store for a while. Is this type of thing usual or these incidents few and far between?

[Lord Inquisitor]

I find most people get rules confused with other editions a lot. Or just sometimes rediculous stuff like a Wych had a blaster(assault weapon) and a close combat weapon. The guy tried to tell me that the Wych got an extra attack because the model was holding the blaster in one hand. Very sad day.

[Grotzooka]

Forgetting the occasional rule is fine. Having to look up something 3 times in a row is fine. Not being able to remember the stats of a boltgun? Not so fine.

[Aldramelech]

I consider myself a veteran gamer, Ive been playing for over 20 years. I haven't played 40K since 2nd edition and even then Id only played it a couple of times, it wasn't my cup of tea. Now I am playing 40k and so far Ive had 5 or 6 small games. Does this cut me any slack? or am I a Muppet? I am fortunate in that my club has lots of experienced 40k players to help me on my way.

Maybe the players you were watching haven't had the benefit of being mentored by an experienced gamer/s. If their not being told their doing it wrong, how would they know?

As with so much in life, practice makes perfect and the only way to learn a games system properly is to play. If you have someone to teach you, even better.

[DarkLink]

I've noticed that a lot of the rules issues that pop up in the Rules section can easily be solved by READING THE CODEX. This is facilitated by OWNING A COPY OF THE RULEBOOK IN QUESTION.

Heck, today someone posted thinking their opponent had made up the sweeping advance rule, and wanted to get it resolved quickly by posting here:confused:!? If you have time to wait for someone to respond to a new thread, you have time to read the codex. Heck, Sweeping Advances are listed in the Index! You don't even have to search for them.

Of course, sometimes we just forget the rules. I don't expect my opponents to be able to quote the rulebook from memory. Some of us have lives :p, and don't need to waste the time memorizing ever aspect of every rule.

[energongoodie]

Forgetting the occasional rule is fine. Having to look up something 3 times in a row is fine. Not being able to remember the stats of a boltgun? Not so fine.

Exactly right.


I consider myself a veteran gamer, Ive been playing for over 20 years. I haven't played 40K since 2nd edition and even then Id only played it a couple of times, it wasn't my cup of tea. Now I am playing 40k and so far Ive had 5 or 6 small games. Does this cut me any slack? or am I a Muppet? I am fortunate in that my club has lots of experienced 40k players to help me on my way.

Maybe the players you were watching haven't had the benefit of being mentored by an experienced gamer/s. If their not being told their doing it wrong, how would they know?

As with so much in life, practice makes perfect and the only way to learn a games system properly is to play. If you have someone to teach you, even better.

If you are trying to shoot at a model you can't see due to the fact it is behind your landraider, you are a muppet. If you are unclear on some of the finer ponts of the rules you are a newb and fine in my book.
I agrre if you have someone to teach you it's a good thing, having the benefit of experienced gamers is a good thing. However... In the case I mentioned there were people mentoring these guys who were acting very much like they were veterans and giving it all the "I've been playing for years, I play all the time, I know all the codices back to front " blah blah blah.
They knew nothing. Not the basic rules, not the specific army rules for the models on the table.

I guess I'm annoyed at people pretending. Pretending they know everything, pretending they have been doing it for years like playing rogue trader is a badge of honour and pretending they are able to help the newbs.

[Melissia]

Don't be a tool. Everyone was unclear about the rules at one point. Just calmly, politely, and WITHOUT CONDESCENSION inform them about the rules, and help them with their game. Don't *****, don't act superior, don't be an ***. It does not help the game and certainly doesn't make you look good.

[N0rdicNinja]

don't be a tool. Everyone was unclear about the rules at one point. Just calmly, politely, and without condescension inform them about the rules, and help them with their game. Don't *****, don't act superior, don't be an ***. It does not help the game and certainly doesn't make you look good.

qft

[energongoodie]

Don't be a tool. Everyone was unclear about the rules at one point. Just calmly, politely, and WITHOUT CONDESCENSION inform them about the rules, and help them with their game. Don't *****, don't act superior, don't be an ***. It does not help the game and certainly doesn't make you look good.

I am afraid you are the Muppet. You have assumed I did not do the things you mention. No where in my post did I say that I checked a mental at them or called them names. I did not act superior or patronise them in any way. I did indeed help them out and draw their attention to the relevant pages in their rule book and codices and the staff member thanked me for my input. I just decided I did not want to play these guys and spend my afternoon teaching them and listening to them say they knew this and that and played this and that.
I just though I'd come on here and post that people who profess to know the rules but in fact know nothing annoy me and if anyone else wanted to have a rant then feel free to join me, you muppet.

[Melissia]

:rolleyes:

Oh come on, you can troll better than that, can't you? You really need to work on your subtlety.

[energongoodie]

:rolleyes:

Oh come on, you can troll better than that, can't you? You really need to work on your subtlety.

Muppet:p

[Melissia]

What, do you have a muppet fetish or something? Want to shpadoink a muppet in its douchemuffin? Eww! What kind of freakin' weirdo are you? Well we don't like your kind here, go away!

[N0rdicNinja]

Come on Melissia, you should know better

http://clanuk.com/forums/images/smilies/troll-web.jpg

[Melissia]

But my poor, poor conscience can't handle it starving!

[Xas]

even trolls deserve to live! all live is precious :)

[energongoodie]

I really think you have missed the point. I have not said anything controversial, inflammatory, or in my opinion irrelevant. I think lazy ignorant gamers wreck gaming stores. I'm sure other people have stories that make them agree with me. I wasn't mean to anyone, I savedthe rant for the lounge.
Any one who wants to be all high and mighty and thinks everyone is great and idiots who pretend to know the rules are fine then please do not post in this thread. Do not hi-jack it with your hippy minded thinking :) There is nothing wrong with having a rant at muppets. If you do not want to then do not read this thread.

[Maria]

I am new to 40k .. i have written my idiot guide list ( army, stats, specials etc) but don't have the confidence to unpack my army on Thursdays game night at GW incase i get judged and called a muppet for not knowing the stats of a bolt gun. It can actually put people off from learning and now having read the OP it's even worse!

[energongoodie]

I am new to 40k .. i have written my idiot guide list ( army, stats, specials etc) but don't have the confidence to unpack my army on Thursdays game night at GW incase i get judged and called a muppet for not knowing the stats of a bolt gun. It can actually put people off from learning and now having read the OP it's even worse!

I'm sorry the guys at your store make you feel that way. As I have stated in my post, my issue is with people who pretend to know better and give it all the chat. I would say this is probably not you.
I have no problem with new players. We have all been new players at some stage. The best way to learn is to play and then that bolt gun stat will be stuck in your brain and so I encourage you to lay your models down on the table and have fun.

[Big Dibs theDog]

You have to learn to rise above this stuff.


Blessed are the ignorant,
for they no not...

Did you try to enlighten them with a:

"Hey guys, as you are all happy, by all means tell me to back off,
but do you want to know what the rules actually say...?"


If they then told you to "back off"

you would have been clear to incinerate them.
:D

[energongoodie]

You have to learn to rise above this stuff.


Blessed are the ignorant,
for they no not...

Did you try to enlighten them with a:

"Hey guys, as you are all happy, by all means tell me to back off,
but do you want to know what the rules actually say...?"


If they then told you to "back off"

you would have been clear to incinerate them.
:D

Hi.
I did mangae to rise above. Please understand, everything in store was fine. I saved a guys assault squad from wrongly jump packing off the table. I stopped a guy treating is markerlights as assault weapons that could fire as well as his pulse rifle, I sorted out their turn orders as they were moving shooting moving assaulting who ever they felt like and I helped with LOS. I could go on. Generally I think they had a better game because of it. I just didn't fancy playing them. They were nice enough but kept on saying they had been playing for ages and that they had loads of old models and played all the time etc.
I am using this board as my ranting outlet instead of taking out on ignorants. I think this is fine and I encourage others to have a rant too :)
Next time maybe I will incinerate them.

[Old_Paladin]

You really didn't rise above it at all.
You came home and started to whine to faceless strangers on the 'net about how you dislike random people in real life. If you actually wanted to be above all that, then you would let it go and not whine to us about it.

Also, you've kinda changed your story there. First you said, "I wouldn't play them with my tiny plastic men, and went home." Now, you're saying "I stayed and helped them learn to play better."
If you stayed and helped, then WHAT'S YOUR DEAL! You should be coming on here and saying, "I helped some rookies play the game we all love. I feel good about myself. Has anybody else been teaching newbies; what's your experience.
You DIDN'T, you came on and pretty much said new players make this game suck.

[Aldramelech]

What, do you have a muppet fetish or something? Want to shpadoink a muppet in its douchemuffin? Eww! What kind of freakin' weirdo are you? Well we don't like your kind here, go away!

Melissia: You crack me up!

Note to Americans, Aliens, stuffed Frogs and Female Karate Pigs: Muppet (yes I know their from America, bear with me) A common British insult that is used when stronger language might not be appropriate, although not as popular, now being overtaken by "Numpty".

[Melissia]

Dunno about all that. But I know shpadoink is a fun word.

[Aldramelech]

Hi.
I did mangae to rise above. Please understand, everything in store was fine. I saved a guys assault squad from wrongly jump packing off the table. I stopped a guy treating is markerlights as assault weapons that could fire as well as his pulse rifle, I sorted out their turn orders as they were moving shooting moving assaulting who ever they felt like and I helped with LOS. I could go on. Generally I think they had a better game because of it. I just didn't fancy playing them. They were nice enough but kept on saying they had been playing for ages and that they had loads of old models and played all the time etc.
I am using this board as my ranting outlet instead of taking out on ignorants. I think this is fine and I encourage others to have a rant too :)
Next time maybe I will incinerate them.

No one likes to be the new boy: "Play often?", "Oh yeah, hundreds of times" Big pinch of salt needed, especially with teens.......

[Aldramelech]

Dunno about all that. But I know shpadoink is a fun word.

Moist is good too, crevice is a positively disgusting word! (No one from America will get that, lol) :D

[ForeverHero]

I consider myself a veteran player as well and have been player for over ten years now. The one thing that I seem to have a hard time with is keeping the rules straight from time to time because of my experience with the previous editions. Most of the new players that we have at our store are at an advantage because they only have to deal with the current edition. They haven’t had the experience of learning and then re-learning the game that some of us have. I can’t tell you how many times I have confused a 3rd or 4th edition rule with 5th; just a little annoying.

Also, when we have new players or kids just getting started several of us vets will take them under our wing and play what we call starter games with them. We’re talking basic lists and lower point value and a lot of time spent addressing tactics and rule clarification. In many cases, after the new player has moved, I’ll ask them their reason for moving or shooting at a unit. This educational experience has proven successful time and time again.

However, I have had the experience of seeing how other groups treat new players, regardless whether they were kids or adults. It saddens me when I see players treat newbies with disdain or try to ridicule them or use them for easy wins and make it look like they won the National ‘Ard Boys; witnessed this behavior many times by both adults and kids. To me this sort of behavior is shameful and gives good players and sportsmen (and sportswomen) of this hobby a bad name. Many years ago, I tired to get started in another gaming system and ended up selling out due to players like this. Granted, I understand that this isn’t a perfect world were players are willing to help out new people in order to expand our hobby.

Just my two cents….

FH

[Lerra]

There are 5 large gaming groups that I know of in our city (only counting the ones with 20+ players). Two of those groups (my group is one of them) have a reputation for bringing in new players, teaching them the hobby and helping them figure out the rules. Basically everyone in my group is a rules expert - you can't help but know the rules well when you spend a lot of time teaching.

The other local are more elitist cliques - they only want expert players in their group. A new player is shut out of those groups until he can learn the rules well enough to earn entry. They don't want to waste time teaching a newbie what a bolter does when they could be playing a competitive game and polishing their tournament skills.

We tend to poach new players from the elitist groups when we can, train them up, and send them out to tournaments under our flag. The elitist groups do tend to win more tournaments, but we are catching up due to sheer numbers ;) Our group won 2 of the last 3. It's turning into a bit of a rivalry.

[Duke]

Well, I can honestly say that I can see both sides of this.

Pro: After reading the posts it appears that you attempted to imporve the situation, which is great. You then came here to complain. I would rather someone come and rant on the net than rant to the people he is trying to help... Sometimes you just have to get it off your cheest and move on, I get it. Also, I get the difference between Newbs and 'veterans' who don't know the rules. I can say that often times I can agree 100% with ForeverHero. I mix my editions sometimes too.

Cons: you have to be really careful that you aren't "That annoying vet," What I mean is that if people are happy in their ignorance then consider leaving them alone. One lesson that I have to keep learning is "Advice should only be given in two situations 1. it is asked for 2. it is life and death (life and death of toy soldiers doesn't apply.)

Duke

PS: just a thought, why is it that when someone complains on a forum we have a tendancy to jump on them? Im not too impressed with how quickly this thread digressed (on both sides) into "your a muppet, your a troll, your a tool...etc." come on guys, express your opinion, but seriously keep the insults to PM's please.

[Quaade]

I find most people get rules confused with other editions a lot. Or just sometimes rediculous stuff like a Wych had a blaster(assault weapon) and a close combat weapon. The guy tried to tell me that the Wych got an extra attack because the model was holding the blaster in one hand. Very sad day.

That one is actually semiright.
The Dark Eldar codex was written at a time where it was mentioned in the main rulebook that if you upgraded a model with a weapon, it lost either one or both weapons it started with, as you could only have 1 twohanded weapon and 1 onehanded or two onehanded.
All upgrade entries for DE specifically state "may be given" without mentioning that they give up their prior equipment as it was explicitly mentioned in the rules that they did.
Come around 5th and it doesn't say anything like that anymore, the rules don't put any restrictions on what a model may carry of weaponry other what it says in the relevant entry.
Ironically it's the old wording that gives DE a very updated option.
Oddly enough there's no limit on how many weapons a regular trooper may carry, but characters are still limited to the old config of 1 twohander and 1 onehander or two onehanders.

Just to reiterate, under 5th:
A wytch carries around it's melee weapon, it's pistol, it's wytch weapons and it's blaster if it have one such.
An Incubi can carry both a blaster and his punisher.
A regular joe warrior upgraded with dark lance, blaster, shredder or splinter cannon still has his rifle.

[BuFFo]

This is a very self indulgent thread and won't be popular but...

I was in my local GW store yesterday, which I really enjoy as a ruleand has excellent staff. However, I was getting madder and madder as the 3 games of 40k going on were being played by guys that had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME OR MANY OF THE RULES! IT WAS RIDICULOUS!
One of the regulars I'm friends with piped up and started helping out and was giving them advice. HE WAS ALSO WRONG!!! They were jumping Tau battlesuits 12", running troops who had failed a morale test off to the nearest table edge, not there own edge, ignoring terrain and land raiders for line of sight, ignoring the phases of the turn and had no knowledge of there own army lists or stats etc etc etc I kept my army in my bag and went home.
The regular staff were away and some guy was covering who was telling them they were right with all there wrong rules. Only one of them was a little kid, if he gets it wrong I do not mind, but over about 15 years old and you should be on it. They said they were not Newbs and played all the time. What happened to learning the rules and your army properly?

I hadn't been down to a store for a while. Is this type of thing usual or these incidents few and far between?

The problem is that you play your hobby at a location where the employees are there not to educate, but to sell a product.

If the employee is telling the kids the wrong rules, its only to make them enjoy the game more, and bug their parents to buy them boxes of model. The employee knows that sooner or later, the kids will learn the correct rules, but at the moment, its all about the sale.

Another thing you must understand is that 40k is a 'group' centered hobby. There are many, many, many pockets of gaming groups who only play at their houses, garages, basements, ect... and these people, rarely if ever, go outside their group and learn how to play correctly. So they may have been playing for years, but for them, what they have been playing seemed right, even though it was wrong.

The concentration of 'experts' in this hobby is rare. The people you see posting online, or playing in gaming stores is only a TINY fraction of the entire hobby population. The majority of the hobby stay at home, and play the same two or three friends. Thats all.

About once or twice a year, a group of new players will come to my local game store, and my god... They ALWAYS have all the rules wrong or backwards. It takes them months of constant playing at the store to learn the correct way of playing.

You just happen to witness one of these 'groups' playing in public.

[imperialsavant]

SNIP*****
Also, you've kinda changed your story there. First you said, "I wouldn't play them with my tiny plastic men, and went home." Now, you're saying "I stayed and helped them learn to play better."
If you stayed and helped, then WHAT'S YOUR DEAL! You should be coming on here and saying, "I helped some rookies play the game we all love. I feel good about myself. Has anybody else been teaching newbies; what's your experience.
You DIDN'T, you came on and pretty much said new players make this game suck.

:)Our Games Club holds a Training Day once a month on Saturdays for younger ( under teen age) &/or new players expressly to oversee their games & explain the rules & help with Tactics etc. We also help with Army Lists & have Codexs available to sort out queries. Works well & helps the "newbees" get on top of the game & we always tell them No.1 Rule is Have Fun!

[Duke]

I remember there was a little while there when I only played two or three of my friends...boy did we have things mixed up. One day we went to a local store to play in a campaign and I started off by trying to assault after double tapping my bolter (so many things wrong with that). The guy I was playing was really nice about it and it made me want to play at that group more. Since that day I have never made a rules mistake... ever. ;)

Duke