What GW Really Hates About Blogs:

[Caitsidhe]

I must preface the following post with the fact it is nothing more than my educated opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. A lot of discussion has been boiling over about the recent assault on Blogs. The implied trigger was the posting of pictures from an upcoming magazine that hasn't even hit the streets yet, i.e. the sneak preview effect. Some have suggested that Games Workshop relies on "impulse" purchases and they don't want people to have that extra week to think over their purchase. This is, of course, ludicrous. Luxury items are only impulse buys for the wealthy.

Moreover, pictures of unreleased magazines have been hitting the blogs for quite some time. I have seen pictures from every unreleased White Dwarf that had a new army release in it for the past couple of years. Most of these unofficial previews hit a week or more before the book itself. So what has changed? :) It isn't about "impulse" buys. We aren't talking about a candy bar at the register here. It has to be about something else. Games Workshop has been clamping down on all the online chatter about its product as much as possible.

The real issue at the heart of the issue (see my clever pun) is REVIEWS. Games Workshop doesn't like Blogs that don't give the products the same glowing reviews and hard sell that their so-called magazine White Dwarf provides. Their new method is to release a book only with a complete model line. This means they have to produce some of all those models and sell them. Blogs and other sites which review models both in how they look and more importantly HOW THEY PERFORM affect their sales. How many Warp Talons or Mutilators do you honestly think are selling as opposed to Helldrakes? If you were to read White Dwarf you would think that the three different models are equally great and effective in your army. :) This is what they want their customers to hear. Independent websites tell people a different story.

You can look to the film industry for a lesson. If a movie STINKS the studio pretty much knows it. They have been doing this long enough to know when they have a turkey. When they do have a turkey that cost a lot of money, they don't release is for review by the critics. They pack it into as many theaters opening weekend as possible, on multiple screens in the same theater if they can, and try to get all the money the can before the general public knows it stinks. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Games Workshop doesn't like Blogs or Forums or any place that doesn't sing the company song. They don't want to be reviewed. They can't order a site taken down for reviews, so they have to find other reasons. :) If you put the fear of "the man" into enough locations, all those previews and rumors will go away. Games Workshop knows that those things are part of the draw of a Blog. Kill the content that brings people and you weaken the blog. The fewer people there, the fewer people write and read the reviews. In their theoryhammer, this means people come to them. It is kind of like the White House Press releases on the war. They want all information run through them rather than and independent press. I might suggest that making fewer TURKEYS and thus garnering more honest, positive reviews would be a better course of action. This has never been how Games Workshop rolls.

[Mr Mystery]

Reviews are one thing. Johnny 10,000 Post automatically slagging off everything GW releases? That's completely another.

The impulse thing remains valid. For this hobby, a single impulse purchase can lead to the subsequent purchase of an entire army. Think about it. A very popular model at the moment is the Nurgle Chaos Lord. Impulse buy upon sight of it....hobbyist then gets a kick out of the colour scheme and painting it all manked up. Hobbyist then goes on to buy further Nurgly models, and winds up with almost an army, and takes that extra plunge.

The simple fact of the matter here is that GW have info we don't. You can theorise as much as you like, but seeing as they continue to grow their business and turn a profit in a pretty unpleasant business environment kind of suggests they know a lot more about running a successful company than anyone here.

And seriously? Comparing movie previews to models? Apples and Oranges? That's carbon based life form and silicon based lifeform comparission right there dude.

[Kirsten]

that massively overstates the importance of the internet in purchasing though. just because a load of people on BoLS think a certain thing is great/awful doesn't mean it has any bearing whatsoever on what people actually buy. The gamers I know locally buy based on what they like the look of/what they want to paint/what fits their theme etc. very few of them bother with blogs and internet reviews and the like. Just because somebody happens to think that all recent GW models are awful, or the latest rules edition is awful, and you see plenty of whining to that effect on forums, doesn't make it a universally held opinion.

[eldargal]

GW have also said repeatedly that a huge percentage of their customer base are collectors who don;t play much or at least don't care about the rules enough for it to impact their purchases in a significant way.

[Caitsidhe]

And seriously? Comparing movie previews to models? Apples and Oranges? That's carbon based life form and silicon based lifeform comparission right there dude.

From a business perspective they are exactly the same. They are product designed for a key demographic for which they wish to generate buzz and minimize any press besides their own. The object is sell the product. From a perspective advertising, the product is beside the point. Games Workshop makes toys for a game. Some toys perform better than others. They naturally sell more of the top performers, just as movie theaters sell more tickets to movies that generate good reviews and good word of mouth.

Think of a Helldrake as any blockbuster and Mutilators as Gigli staring Affleck and Lopez. :) The bad reviews depressed opening weekend for Gigli and the resulting press and word of mouth utterly killed it. The exact same process happend to Mutilators.

[eldargal]

Except with a film you get a one minute trailer of what you are going to pay for before you pay for it. With GW you get big, colour photos and sprue photos plus you can wait for people to actually get the kit and review it.

[Power Klawz]

I'll be honest, I've probably played one game in the past year. How much money have I given GW though? Yeah...

I like the models, I like painting them, converting them and creating a narrative in my head. I suppose I'd play more often if I weren't a work-a-day scumbag neo-yuppie but all the "tactical advice" on the internet has never affected my desire to purchase any GW product. I don't care if its all-killy or all-silly in game terms, if it looks cool I'll probably end up getting at least once eventually. I think a lot of people in these secular corners of the internet start to view the wider hobby world through a thoroughly skewed lens after a time. Just because some guy who goes to tournaments tells me that "Mutilators Are Bad™" isn't going to stop me from trying to make them look totally gnarly with a sweet paintjob. What will stop me is that they are butt ugly however, and I feel that had a lot more to do with depressed sales than gameplay value. At least Obliterators had gameplay value going for them, the mutilators had nothing and so were lost. I'm sure that other less than stellar units with nice models fared much better.

All that being said I do think there is some merit to the statement that GW does not want negative press, but coming from their perspective I think its a bit deeper than that. I do not think they wish to engender the sort of ruthless point for point, One List To Rule Them All debates that spring up around places like this. You get a bunch of talking heads going on and on about what units are broken and what units are garbage and you start to develop a subculture in the hobby that, in all honesty, doesn't care one wit about the actual hobby. You get a legion of grey space marines that decimates all opponents by turn 3, and that is about as far away from the spirit of the game as you can get.

That's not to say that GW are all a bunch of altruistic crusaders for hobby morals or any such things. They're out there to make money of course, but I'm sure that it is a concern that their product will be eviscerated on an operating table it was never meant for. In these insular little circles extremism tends to prevail. I'm sure my wording evokes imagery a bit too strong for the context but I think it rings true on its face. WAAC gaming, for lack of a better term, is not something GW is equipped to handle and it has never had the inclination to develop that capability. When you have enough people trying to shove a square peg through a round hole there might come a tipping point where people start blaming the peg for not being round enough, and that peg is the GW hobby.

[DrLove42]

Your example of GW not selling Mutilators and selling Helldrakes...you think thats JUST because someone has written a blog saying Heldrakes are good and Mutilators aren't?

I think you give the internet a bit too much credit, the reason for those sales is because one model/rules is better than the other.

[Mr Mystery]

Except with a film you get a one minute trailer of what you are going to pay for before you pay for it. With GW you get big, colour photos and sprue photos plus you can wait for people to actually get the kit and review it.

Yup.

Plus, Gigli as a film doesn't interest me not because of the reviews, but because it's not a horror, slasher, sci fi or fantasy film. I am informed it's pretty terrible...but who knows until I find myself watching it? People slag off the Transformers series, because for some frankly bizarre reason, they expected a work of near Shakespearean magnitute, and not 80' tall robots knocking seven bells out of each other to a ropey script, massive explosions and Megan Fox's lady bits wobbling all over the shop. Yet, the films are really good fun and exceptionally successful, regardless of what the so called expert reviewers say.....

[eldargal]

Well, the third film was pretty damned awful to be fair. I liked the first one though.

[Mr Mystery]

Third was my fave........

[eldargal]

I hated it, they killed the female autobots for no reason (turned out Bay hated their character, misogynist **** that he is) which the official, canon comics later retconned. You know a film has jumped the cybertronian shark when the official comics start retconning things.

Plus the model woman that replaced Fox couldn't act and just seemed to scream a lot, it was like a horror film from the 50s in that regard.

[Gotthammer]

In its defence, Gigli does contain one of the greatest lines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw9sQ98s9AE) in cinema history.

[Mr Mystery]

I hated it, they killed the female autobots for no reason (turned out Bay hated their character, misogynist **** that he is) which the official, canon comics later retconned. You know a film has jumped the cybertronian shark when the official comics start retconning things.

Plus the model woman that replaced Fox couldn't act and just seemed to scream a lot, it was like a horror film from the 50s in that regard.

But she had a fantastic arse.....

[OrksOrksOrks]

Internet hobby person believes that relatively tiny internet hobby community has a real and noticeable effect on wider hobby.

I'm shocked.

[Power Klawz]

So all the top threads in the 40k subforum have nothing to do with 40k whatsoever. I think mention has been made of maybe 3 different 40k models among all of them? Isn't this kind of... oh I don't know SUPREMELY IRONIC?

Like, a bunch of people complaining about something that GW did or didn't do (not really clear on that part, or what it was that may or may not have been done) but the only place their complaining will garner any attention is in a forum dedicated to the products said company creates.

The mind boggles.

[OrksOrksOrks]

So all the top threads in the 40k subforum have nothing to do with 40k whatsoever. I think mention has been made of maybe 3 different 40k models among all of them? Isn't this kind of... oh I don't know SUPREMELY IRONIC?

Like, a bunch of people complaining about something that GW did or didn't do (not really clear on that part, or what it was that may or may not have been done) but the only place their complaining will garner any attention is in a forum dedicated to the products said company creates.

The mind boggles.

I'm going to use all the threads to talk about 40K now.

I like 40K, my favourite bit about 40K is the Orks, they're cool, I collect Orks.

Who else likes 40K? Caitsidhe? No?

[Caitsidhe]

I started with the statement that this is my educated opinion didn't I? :) Let me put it this way, for those of you who don't think word of mouth (and the internet falls under that) affects sales. I live between two large 40K META of very active 40K players. Among them there are many representatives (besides myself) of Chaos Space Marines. To date, I have yet to meet even ONE person who has bought or fielded a Warp Talon or Mutilators. I know the models exist. I've seen them in stores. We didn't all have a meeting and agree to boycott them. I highly doubt that everyone who read the book came to the instant conclusion I did. There would have to be some variation. Besides if the whole "impulse nonsense" is true somebody would have bought them and been trying them out. Mutilators and Warp Talons (for certain) look pretty good. And yet... tumbleweeds. Unless all the Chaos Space Marine players are a damn Hive Mind, people read reviews, listened to the results other people got, and chose not to buy them. Do not count the internet out.

While to many inside the Hobby it seems like a "big deal," miniature wargaming is niche. It is a small community in the hobby world overall and thus the internet has a powerful effect on it. People seek out other people in the hobby and the internet instantly allows me to talk to people in the United Kingdom (for example) and get their perspective. It allows me to know who played what and where and who won. It allows me to listen to all sorts of quacking voices, and the truth of the matter is "we are a part of everyone we have met" even when we meet them on the internet. This might even be more true because the internet, like literature, is a very cereberal medium. We hear these voices directly in our head and apply all the emotion and or bias we like.

I'm not saying Games Workshop is evil for wanting to control all the press on its toys. What I'm saying is the approach is foolish and has been tried by countless others (all of whom failed). The genie is out of the bottle and the best way to harness that monster is to keep it busy. All trying to shove it back into the bottle does is anger an entity capable of granting wishes.

[Caitsidhe]

Who else likes 40K? Caitsidhe? No?

I play 40K at least once a week. I buy something for Games Workshop directly perhaps once a year. They kindly subsidize my collection with prize support.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I play 40K at least once a week. I buy something for Games Workshop directly perhaps once a year. They kindly subsidize my collection with prize support.

I asked if you liked it. You don't seem very happy with this hobby, all you do is complain about it.

[Caitsidhe]

I asked if you liked it. You don't seem very happy with this hobby, all you do is complain about it.

The key difference between you and I is you define Games Workshop "as the hobby." I do not. I'm a wargamer. This runs the gamut from Chess to online tactical, real time simulations. Tactical board games using miniatures is simply somewhere in the middle. The hobby, for me, is wargaming. Games Workshop is just a merchant that sells product for part of the hobby.

I'm actually very even-handed. I give credit when credit is due. I'm neither a shill nor the founding member of the "Get GW Hate-Club." :) I think they are badly managed. I think they are overpriced. I think they need to make sure the quality of the game system matches their excellent models. Aside from the quality of their models, there just hasn't been very much to crow about of late.

And for the record, I love wargaming.

[DeadPanda]

I enjoy reading white dwarf, I love GW models and I don't "hate" GW for going about its business how it sees fit. It's funny because when you read threads like this I feel that maybe I'm in the minority. But yet here we all are still discussing the ins and outs of GW's business over how many threads. It's amazing how many seem to know **** all about everything. As long as I keep painting cool models, having fun evenings of gaming combined with a few drinks with friends, then the rest doesn't matter 1 jot. Enjoy the hobby and discuss it to your hearts content. But for those that are constantly whining about GW, I have to ask. "Why are you even here on the 40k related part of the forum ?"

[Caitsidhe]

I enjoy reading white dwarf, I love GW models and I don't "hate" GW for going about its business how it sees fit. It's funny because when you read threads like this I feel that maybe I'm in the minority. But yet here we all are still discussing the ins and outs of GW's business over how many threads. It's amazing how many seem to know **** all about everything. As long as I keep painting cool models, having fun evenings of gaming combined with a few drinks with friends, then the rest doesn't matter 1 jot. Enjoy the hobby and discuss it to your hearts content. But for those that are constantly whining about GW, I have to ask. "Why are you even here on the 40k related part of the forum ?"

In short, unless someone has something nice to say, their opinion doesn't matter and they shouldn't be here? :) Are you suggesting it is impossible to be someone who enjoys playing 40K and also have viable, fair critiques of the game or the company?

[DeadPanda]

That's fair enough I suppose, but I really think the forum as a whole is suffering due to so much negativity at the moment. You could blame GW for sure but it's hard not to notice how many moaners crawl out of the woodwork when they feel the opportunity presents itself. When they don't contribute anything positive about the hobby at all, not directed at you Cait, but you know exactly what I mean.

[Caitsidhe]

That's fair enough I suppose, but I really think the forum as a whole is suffering due to so much negativity at the moment. You could blame GW for sure but it's hard not to notice how many moaners crawl out of the woodwork when they feel the opportunity presents itself. When they don't contribute anything positive about the hobby at all, not directed at you Cait, but you know exactly what I mean.

I do know what you mean. I also freely defer the point that people who take the time say anything at all (it is effort) tend to be more extreme than those who don't. That is why you hear more radical viewpoints than moderate ones. Just the same, Games Workshop is getting the vocal fans it deserves. If more people seem to be negative, they need to work on that. Blaming the internet and simply stating those who complain are losers is probably not the best option (even if it were always true). Games Workshop, all veracity of the complaints laid aside, has a public relations problem. I think we can all agree on that. For some reason their fan base (which was once quite postive with the negative nellys being the minority) has now gone the other way. The buck has to stop with Games Workshop. We don't owe them anything. They WANT something from us. They sell toys and a game system to use them with. Since there isn't a paid campaign by a competitor out there (as in dirty politics) working hard to discredit the company, one can only assume that the ample complaints and rumbling are born of genuine discontent. You can't please all of the people all of the time. This is very true. A merchant better, however, be able to please a majority of the people most of the time. Whatever the reason and whatever the cost, they need to turn this public relations disaster around. It is simply good business.

[bfmusashi]

Well, the third film was pretty damned awful to be fair. I liked the first one though.

The third is exalted by comparison to the second.

[Power Klawz]

You are approaching this subject from an aberrant and I would go so far as to say delusional perspective. I hate to use the old internet standby argument, but anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. You cannot base an argument on the fact that everyone you know didn't buy particular models. I doubt you have access to any pertinent sales data regarding the aforementioned models, and even if you did correlation does not constitute causation.

In this thread you've taken it upon yourself to speak as the majority, which in your opinion is dissatisfied with its very raison d'etre. If that truly were the case you'd see mass consumer migration and plummeting profit margins for GW. Its quite easy to argue that they've seen some rocky roads, especially in relation to their heyday in the mid 90s, but to say that they stand upon the very precipice of oblivion due to their own corporate misdeeds is woefully inaccurate. They are still making money, still selling models and people are still, by and large, enjoying themselves with their products.

So what I think I see here isn't so much a complete fabrication, but an error in magnitude judgment. Certain members of the fanbase are perennially dissatisfied. Sometimes there is merit to their displeasure, sometimes it is merely people trying to fit that square peg into that round hole. It is not some great cancer of the hobby however, its just that some people take their plastic army mans a little too seriously.

Also your dismissal of the impulse buy marketing paradigm is groundless. Your definition of luxury priced goods is not universal and therefore cannot constitute a valid counterpoint. Many people will blow thousands of dollars in a weekend on alcohol and club access alone, and at the end of it they won't even have nicely painted miniatures to show for it. Probably just venereal disease.

[Caitsidhe]

You are approaching this subject from an aberrant and I would go so far as to say delusional perspective.

Aren't we all? Hey I said my two cents.

[Power Klawz]

Aren't we all? Hey I said my two cents.

Can't... resist... mixed metaphor...

I'm afraid your two cents don't amount to a couple of wooden nickles.

I think the central point of your original post is valid at least. I do believe that GW has a vested interest in censorship. I do think this is a pretty chicken-shiz way to do business and I do not agree with the fervor with which GW seems to try to surreptitiously quash fanbase grumblings. I think they should handle the grumblings head on and tell people to stuff it personally, but that's probably nothing more than misguided machismo on my part.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned though is of dubious veracity and I find it hard to consider it an "educated opinion" when its basically flat out guessing and muck raking.

[OrksOrksOrks]

The key difference between you and I is you define Games Workshop "as the hobby." I do not. I'm a wargamer. This runs the gamut from Chess to online tactical, real time simulations. Tactical board games using miniatures is simply somewhere in the middle. The hobby, for me, is wargaming. Games Workshop is just a merchant that sells product for part of the hobby.

I'm actually very even-handed. I give credit when credit is due. I'm neither a shill nor the founding member of the "Get GW Hate-Club." :) I think they are badly managed. I think they are overpriced. I think they need to make sure the quality of the game system matches their excellent models. Aside from the quality of their models, there just hasn't been very much to crow about of late.

And for the record, I love wargaming.

See, you're trying to twist this to meet your point, this is a 40K board and you're talking about Games Workship, I specifically asked if you liked 40K, not wargaming.

I like Games Workshop, my local store is great and their staff are my friends, we go for drinks and hang out often, but I have a hobby life outside of Games workshop, I play a lot of games and paint even more models, but Games Workshop got me into the hobby, they got most wargamers my age and younger in the Uk into the hobby, since they formed, they helped shape wargaming into what it is and they still make the most innovative and exciting mass produced miniatures.

If you're after a detailed and balanced rules system and playing 40K then you're in the wrong game and you're the one trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. 40K isn't and has never been supposed to be that, its a fun, silly game designed for casual play. And the rulesset suits that just fine

[-Tom-]

I do know what you mean. I also freely defer the point that people who take the time say anything at all (it is effort) tend to be more extreme than those who don't. That is why you hear more radical viewpoints than moderate ones.

Indeed, I've read everything that people have to say on the issues that have come up over the last couple of months but I've said very little. Often I have little knowledge of the topic to add (beyond speculation). I've seen "GW haters" for whom everything GW do is an act of evil, and "GW lovers" who think that GW poop rainbows. With those two extremes being the ones who post, it seems very polar extremes as I expect many of the people in the middle just don't post.

Personally, I like GW models. I'm a bit of an idealist, and I have a few niggles with things GW do, but I am just restarting an Eldar collection, and I will likely keep doing so regardless of those niggles. I mean, one of the niggles is that I wish they made more models/variants/updated sculpts for my Eldar to buy off them - hardly a reason to move away from them!

I'm not sure I'm a fan of finecast, but then again where I've had problems with horrible cast marks or bubbles I've taken the bits back and had them swapped with no quibble. Of course it is still irritating when I want to settle down to doing some modelling, and find that I have to make another trip into town to swap bits over.

I guess I wish the prices in general were a bit cheaper, but really only so I could have more models, although some things do seem quite overpriced (for example, the price of green stuff from GW). However, GW are not alone in this... for example B&Q who are a major DIY store in the UK (for the benefit of US/Aussie/other readers) has some horribly overpriced goods because the people that go there just won't shop around to get things cheaper. So, in this regard I do partially already vote with my wallet by not buying green stuff from GW. I can also appreciate the criticisms of White Dwarf magazine.

None of those are things that I would even mention, aside from wanting to make the point that I would class myself as one of those people sitting in the middle and not posting either rage or bum-rainbows.

I can see what people are saying about how they have handled some things poorly in terms of PR. Carrying out the exact same actions but with someone putting a shiny spin on it may not help though... it might just turn the rage threads into conspiracy threads instead.




I hate to use the old internet standby argument, but anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. You cannot base an argument on the fact that everyone you know didn't buy particular models. I doubt you have access to any pertinent sales data regarding the aforementioned models, and even if you did correlation does not constitute causation.

However, the OP began this thread with an 'in my opinion' statement, offering an anecdote to support their opinion seems reasonable. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, yes, but it does not mean it is worthless it just means you have to be aware of its value/limitations. Sales statistics are another thing that you would have to be aware of the value of, and problems with/limitations of. You can interpret statistics in many different ways. Furthermore, correlation does not constitute causation, but spotting a correlation would be a starting point to investigate if there were a causation.

I have seen this disregard for anecdotal evidence in the last day or so by another poster in another thread. My problem with that standpoint is this - This is a forum, where people post their opinions. Some of those opinions will be more knowledgeable than others, and some posters may be better informed regarding certain pieces of the puzzle being debated, however no one has the whole puzzle. If you're going to go the route of assuming that everyone is attempting to post solid fact, or scientific theories of business models/sociological interactions, then maybe we all ought to start adding footnotes and references to the submission of our 'papers'.

[Power Klawz]

I'd actually prefer a properly researched and cited internewts, alas the main selling point of universal access is universal access. Even the most ardent truth-seeker in the digital arena will fall prey to the ease of instantaneous publication and start popping off unverified commentary all willy-nilly, myself included.

I don't consider the caveat "in my opinion" to mean much of anything. Of course everything you say on the internet is your opinion unless properly cited and backed by lengthy, logical discourse. There's really no need to spell it out unless, of course, you are seeking deniability when you are inevitably called to task for saying something that disagrees with another person's opinion, or is refuted by rational counterargument.

[Denzark]

Anyone else thinking the vast majority of anti-GW posts in the last couple of years come from the West side of the Atlantic...?

Is it that they are so used to a super-size me, have a nice day bend over and tickle my fobosity tertiary service industry, that they can't believe the front of a company that ostensibly couldn't give a rat's arse about whinging people, whilst they are dragging in profit (in a recession)?

[Power Klawz]

There has been a massive resurgence in fascist conservatism over here in recent years, and with it an extremely entitled mentality wherein everyone wants to believe they are all princes of the meritocracy who deserve everything they want because they're just so awesome. Not really sure if its Tea Party mentality that's leaking into wargaming forum posts, but it probably isn't helping matters.

[AnEnemy]

Allow me to return the courtesy you showed the OP, powerklawz. Your opinion is worthless and you should shut up now.

[jgebi]

TO MUCH TO ****EN READ, could some one please shrink it for me?

[Mr Mystery]

There has been a massive resurgence in fascist conservatism over here in recent years, and with it an extremely entitled mentality wherein everyone wants to believe they are all princes of the meritocracy who deserve everything they want because they're just so awesome. Not really sure if its Tea Party mentality that's leaking into wargaming forum posts, but it probably isn't helping matters.

Kind of the same over here in Blighty. Sense of entitlement reigns supreme. Saw an article on the BBC news yesterday morning saying most youth unemployed want a job payin at least £18k.... Which, yeah..... Kind of explains why they are struggling to find one. I blame the parents and media in equal measure for not instilling the reality that life is really hard work, and sucks more than you could possibly know for most of the time. Just got to put your dreams on the back burner and get on with things the best you can'

[DarkLink]

I just don't get how Power Klawz attributes said sense of entitlement to the right, let alone the Tea Party. If he said liberals, sure, I could understand that, they're stereotypical all about anti-big business and stuff that would actually fit in with complaining about GW. If you want to make a sweeping generalization, though, if anything the right would side with GW and be like "they're the business, they do what they want". Not that that's any more accurate than Power Klawz' original sweeping generalization either, but at least it would align with the common stereotype.

[eldargal]

The third is exalted by comparison to the second.

That is truly frightening.

[Psychosplodge]

Kind of the same over here in Blighty. Sense of entitlement reigns supreme. Saw an article on the BBC news yesterday morning saying most youth unemployed want a job payin at least £18k.... Which, yeah..... Kind of explains why they are struggling to find one. I blame the parents and media in equal measure for not instilling the reality that life is really hard work, and sucks more than you could possibly know for most of the time. Just got to put your dreams on the back burner and get on with things the best you can'

I blame the benefits system and ridiculous housing costs, Thanks Mr. Brown

[Mr Mystery]

Housing is Thatcher's child.

Sell off social stock, cheap as. Don't replenish. House prices rise as there are more buyers, and they've got a taste for ownership. Those who can't afford (hello) can either rent privately (hello) or get social housing. Except, there isn't much social housing. Because it all got sold off. Cheap. And not replenished. Net result? Councils now put social housing candidates...into privately owned accomodation...the cost of which has gone up along with private buying costs....Oops!

And all because they didn't build more with the money from the old. And why I think Thatcher was a mad old bag. But, crashing on!

There is a shocking sense of entitlement in the UK. I come across it in my job every day. People don't like to be told no. They feel they're right, because they say they are, even when all the evidence kind of shows...they're wrong, provably so....

Like when I worked in Car Insurance...explaining to someone that his driving into a skip...a skip which the photographs he supplied, show to have been bright yellow, and with lamps on it....was not the fault of the skip owner, or whoever left it there, but his fault for failing to see, you know, a big yellow skip with lamps on it.....derp much? Oh, the threats to sue me personally never did materialise!

[Psychosplodge]

Yes because encouraging buy to let and the housing boom to make the economy look good was something she did after not being an MP for seven years...

[Mr Mystery]

Sowed the seeds, and caused otherwise social housing peeps to be housed in privately rented homes at several times the cost.... Started with that mad old bint, made worse by others.

If only they'd replenished...

[Psychosplodge]

Not everything is thatcher, she's been out of power for twenty two years.
If Brown hadn't made the funds available they wouldn't have been able to push rents up like that.

[Mr Mystery]

Rents would go up anyway. Housing was a stupid bubble anyway. Banks committed to stupid lending. Buyers committed to stupid prices. Then the whole stupid bubble went pop, based on the mutual greed of Bank and Buyer, and people feel it was Browns fault??

[Psychosplodge]

No the rents are artificially high because housing benefit was paid out at above market rates, and nobody asked any questions? which encouraged buy to let landlords and led to the mess we're in now.

Brown encouraged it both because it made the economy look good, and by not doing his job as chancellor and exercising proper control of the budgets for housing benefits.

[Mr Mystery]

And social housing depending on the private sector.....started with Thatcher's short sighted implementation of an otherwise solid policy.

[Psychosplodge]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Denzark]

Don't start this again - thatcher I mean. My comment wasn't necessarily political but an attempt to explain why most of the anti-GW hysteria comes from across the Atlantic. I also agree that a sense of entitlement is not necessarily a right wing thing - actually nor a left wing but they encourage it more.

[Mr Mystery]

I think it's about the same, and at the risk of sounding like an old fogie (I'm only 32 at the moment...33 end of the month) it's mostly amongst the yoof.

There just seems to be an expectation that it'll all work out fine and they'll get their nice things and a nice house. Which of course, is looking less and less likely at the moment unless you're both very luck and a hard worker.... Of course it's far from a universal attitude, but it seems common enough to casue further problems further down the line.

For every dolescum whining about how they can't afford a PS3 or whatever (tough) there's some Yuppiescum trying to avoid tax (like Bankers holding off on the payment of their annual bonus in order to catch the lower tax rate). Both feel it's their right in different ways, but they're both part of the same wider issue. Everybody wants something for nothing, and the rules are fine as long as they aren't applied to you...

Britain is a bit of a mess, and none of the existent parties are the answer.

[Power Klawz]

Allow me to return the courtesy you showed the OP, powerklawz. Your opinion is worthless and you should shut up now.

Not very nice, but I understand your reaction. Must defend the vaunted myth of the meritocracy. Can't continue the central delusion in your life without it, right?

Also I never said the OP's opinion was worthless, just vastly overstated with a tad too much hyperbole to be considered wholly legitimate.

I bet you think all liberals are on welfare right? Does it burn you to know that a lot of them are harder working than you? Some of them make more money too, hell a lot of us are even into this whole "capitalism" thing, so long as there are sane restrictions placed on the worst of its excesses. The real distinction being that we're ok with paying our part and will even vote against our own personal interests for the greater well being of society.

I know, evil stuff man. Like, far out.

[Defenestratus]

Caitsidhe's point is absolutely correct in that GW simply cannot handle blog criticism - and I point to one action by GW as direct proof of their thin skin.

When they pulled their Facebook page following Spot the Space Marine.

They simply CANNOT HANDLE things said about them on the internet that do not cast them as the paragons of virtue. Anyone that tries to claim that they didn't pull the FB page due to the overwhelming negative comments is simply a blind apologist.

[eldargal]

How did we get from Faeit posting pictures of a copyright work to criticism of GW?

[Kyban]

How did we get from Faeit posting pictures of a copyright work to criticism of GW?

At least it's closer to topic than usual.

[NockerGeek]

Caitsidhe's point is absolutely correct in that GW simply cannot handle blog criticism - and I point to one action by GW as direct proof of their thin skin.

When they pulled their Facebook page following Spot the Space Marine.

They simply CANNOT HANDLE things said about them on the internet that do not cast them as the paragons of virtue. Anyone that tries to claim that they didn't pull the FB page due to the overwhelming negative comments is simply a blind apologist.

To be fair, a lot of that probably comes from the tone of the criticism. It's rarely delivered in any sort of constructive fashion that would lead to a dialogue; instead it's more in the style of angry ranting, ad hominem attacks, cries for boycotts, and other pitchfork-and-torch stuff. Note: this isn't exclusive to GW, but seems to be universal across the internet. Rarely does anyone stop to think, "If someone came at me with the kind of attitude I just went after entity X, I wouldn't want to talk to me either." So... GW responds by taking its ball and going home. Sure, it seems cowardly and immature, but at the same time, what kind of meaningful conversation can you have with someone who is just heaping abuse and arguing, rather than debating rationally and wanting to discuss things?

GW does need to grow a thicker skin in this era of social media, but the community (not saying just "fanbase", because it's the non-fans and ex-fans that are particularly vitriolic) needs to learn to tone things down as well. To quote a friend of mine, "I'm not funny enough to be negative on the Internet," and those are words that many people could stand to take to heart.

But hey, wargaming. Serious business, right?

[Phototoxin]

Except with a film you get a one minute trailer of what you are going to pay for before you pay for it. With GW you get big, colour photos and sprue photos plus you can wait for people to actually get the kit and review it.

Screw you and your logic lady, this is about hatin' GeeDub! :p