Vindicare Shield Breaker and the Nova Reactor

[IronZOGZ]

Hello BoLS -

Writing to you from (finally) sunny Richmond, VA.

My buddy and I are cordially trying to agree on how the Vindicare Assassin interacts with the Nova Reactor found on our loving new Riptide (who shredded most of my Space Wolves in three turns...).

If I fire a shield breaker round at the Riptide with no Nova reactor turned on, it disables the invulnerable save granted by his suit as per Vindicare rules - "any invulnerable save granted by item or wargear." Great. Now, if I do the same thing while his Nova shield is turned on... head explodes.

This is problematic largely because the source of the Nova Reactor is difficult to determine. Now we're crossing into a discussion about RAI and RAW - it's listed as a Special Rule, but it obviously comes with his suit, right? Does the round only disable it for the turn? Does it prevent him from ever using the shield function of his Reactor again? Does the round do anything at all?

We agreed for the game we played that the Breaker round disables/ignores the shield for that turn, on the grounds that it is a single, temporary effect granted by the item/wargear but is not it's sole function (and in doing so we ruled that the Reactor is, in fact, an item/wargear).

What do you guys think? Sorry I don't have page numbers for reference - I'm at work! The relevant sections of the various books are:

Grey Knight Codex - Vindicare Assassin special rules - Shield Breaker Round - last pages(?) of the unit descriptions in the Grey Knights codex.

Tau Codex - Nova Reactor Section of the Riptide's unit description

Tau Codex - Riptide Battlesuit - Battlesuits description page (just for reference - this section doesn't mention the Reactor at all, hence our confusion.

[bfmusashi]

This depends on how literal you are. If you go strict RAW the nova reactor a special rule not wargear and can not be canceled with the shield breaker. If you are of the mind fluff dictates interpretation then the invulnerable save is lost when the shield breaker wounds. The Riptide Shield Generator entry on page 69 states Nova Shield is just an overboost of the wargear's effect and as the wargear's invulnerable save is lost so is the Nova Shield.

[Subexarch]

The Shield Breaker would indeed destroy the shield generator but wouldn't do anything to the Nova reactor (It is neither wargear nor the source of the invul save). Without the generator's base save the reactor can't be used to improve it obviously. So the Riptide would get no invul at all but would otherwise be completely free to terrorize the enemy.

[Sly]

The Shield Breaker would indeed destroy the shield generator but wouldn't do anything to the Nova reactor (It is neither wargear nor the source of the invul save). Without the generator's base save the reactor can't be used to improve it obviously. So the Riptide would get no invul at all but would otherwise be completely free to terrorize the enemy.

I agree. The generator is the wargear that gives an invulnerable save, thus it can be destroyed. The reactor boosts the save, but doesn't provide it... without a generator, there is no save for the reactor to boost.

[Nabterayl]

The Riptide Shield Generator entry on page 69 states Nova Shield is just an overboost of the wargear's effect
I may just be blind, but where do you see this? All I see on page 69 is, "A Riptide shield generator confers a 5+ invulnerable save." Similarly, on page 44 all I see is "Nova Shield This grants the Riptide Shas'vre a 3+ invulnerable save." I don't see anything in the codex that links the two.

Unless I'm missing something, I think the best literal reading is that the nova reactor is immune to the shield breaker, but the Riptide shield generator is not. As others have said, the nova reactor is consistently called a "special rule," which is neither an item nor wargear. That said, I would play it (with my buddies' friendly consent) as an item, since it is modeled as a physical object on the suit.

[bfmusashi]

Strict RAW says you keep the Nova Shield. When I said how loose (i.e. use the italics) you get with it I mean it specifically refers to charging the Riptide Shield Generator to get the 3+. It's right there.

[Magpie]

"Within a Riptide battlesuit's ablative shield is housed a small energy
field generator whose potency can be further boosted by diverting
power from the XVI 04 's nova reactor."

I think makes it pretty clear the Nova Shield is a boost to the Shield Generator. The Shield Breaker round should take it down.

[bfmusashi]

"Within a Riptide battlesuit's ablative shield is housed a small energy
field generator whose potency can be further boosted by diverting
power from the XVI 04 's nova reactor."

I think makes it pretty clear the Nova Shield is a boost to the Shield Generator. The Shield Breaker round should take it down.

Only if you take the italics to be part of the rule instead of just fluff. Often, the italics are ignored and only the standard text used in rulings.

[Magpie]

Only if you take the italics to be part of the rule instead of just fluff. Often, the italics are ignored and only the standard text used in rulings.

That's not a good route to follow if you are looking to determine which interpretation to take when there are several ways it could go.

[Learn2Eel]

That's not a good route to follow if you are looking to determine which interpretation to take when there are several ways it could go.

It is pretty clear that the Riptide would get a +3 invulnerable save regardless of the Shield Breaker round.


(page 45) "Nova Shield This grants the Riptide Shas'vre a +3 invulnerable save."

No ifs. No buts. There is nothing in the Nova Reactor special rule about "boosting" anything. It just says that you gain one of the effects. It wouldn't matter if the fluff section of the shield generator was part of the rules. The Nova Generator's Nova Shield effect grants the Riptide a +3 invulnerable save. There's really no way around that. And actually, the parts in italics aren't considered part of the rules.

[IronZOGZ]

No ifs. No buts. There is nothing in the Nova Reactor special rule about "boosting" anything. It just says that you gain one of the effects. It wouldn't matter if the fluff section of the shield generator was part of the rules. The Nova Generator's Nova Shield effect grants the Riptide a +3 invulnerable save. There's really no way around that. And actually, the parts in italics aren't considered part of the rules.

I believe this is completely correct RAW. My original interpretation was that I could break the 5+ from the suit but not the 3+ from the Reactor. Moving forward we'll acknowledge this approach as it is the most sound study of the rules and most likely to be encountered again on the battlefield in a store or against an opponent I don't know.

As an aside - my buddy and I discussed a gentlemen's rule that the Reactor can only generate a 5+ once the suit save is broken. Trying to find the most interesting combination of fluff/RAI and RAW to cover what we believe becomes an ambiguous situation when you really factor in the fluff idea that the Reactor boosts the suit save rather than generating its own. We arrived at this by thinking of the Reactor boost in terms of a stealth/shrouding rule with cover saves - if the Reactor boosts his Invul by +2, it can only create a 5+ when it has no base save to boost. We think it makes it more fun in-house!

[dreadnoughtguy]

one thing to keep in mind is that GW has started using the "fluf" as part of the rules. Look to the c'tan and which weapons are affected by his special power. It would be nice if they kept it clear cut and had seperate iron clad rules and then the story which was seperate yet reflected the rules. I am not sure how they will come down on this one but I wouldn't be so fast to throw out any fluf as not affecting rules.

[Learn2Eel]

I believe this is completely correct RAW. My original interpretation was that I could break the 5+ from the suit but not the 3+ from the Reactor. Moving forward we'll acknowledge this approach as it is the most sound study of the rules and most likely to be encountered again on the battlefield in a store or against an opponent I don't know.

As an aside - my buddy and I discussed a gentlemen's rule that the Reactor can only generate a 5+ once the suit save is broken. Trying to find the most interesting combination of fluff/RAI and RAW to cover what we believe becomes an ambiguous situation when you really factor in the fluff idea that the Reactor boosts the suit save rather than generating its own. We arrived at this by thinking of the Reactor boost in terms of a stealth/shrouding rule with cover saves - if the Reactor boosts his Invul by +2, it can only create a 5+ when it has no base save to boost. We think it makes it more fun in-house!

I like that approach and agree!

[Magpie]

It's good that you guys came to an agreement, that is the guiding rule after all and makes for a much more enjoyable game.

The answer however is pretty clear to see but it is, in the end, your choice. You can either be a Rawtard and go only off type face or read the entire rule entry and take the full meaning of it.

[bfmusashi]

It's good that you guys came to an agreement, that is the guiding rule after all and makes for a much more enjoyable game.

The answer however is pretty clear to see but it is, in the end, your choice. You can either be a Rawtard and go only off type face or read the entire rule entry and take the full meaning of it.
Another fluff interpretation is the Nova Reactor going all full power to shields is overriding whatever damage the shield breaker round did.

[Magpie]

Another fluff interpretation is the Nova Reactor going all full power to shields is overriding whatever damage the shield breaker round did.

But does the fluff actually say that ?

[dirkspair]

no, it does not, because there is no fluff written about a vindicare shooting a riptide suit. there are just too many interactions in this game to cover during play testing (even if it was done in a satisfactory manner). but 40k is still a game that tries to be a simulation, not an abstract game. so i see nothing wrong with interpreting rules that work for both parties instead of blindly going with RAW.

[Magpie]

but 40k is still a game that tries to be a simulation, not an abstract game.

errr ...... no it isn't, read page 8


so i see nothing wrong with interpreting rules that work for both parties instead of blindly going with RAW.

I agree, so reading the rule in context of the background information, aka "fluff", is the way to go.

[Learn2Eel]

If that was the case, you would see Ahriman with access to Divination because he is a master diviner. Referring to me as a "RAWtard" doesn't change the fact that by what we have, the Nova Shield Effect provides a +3 invulnerable save and can't be removed by the Vindicare Shield Breaker round, which was the rules question at hand here. It goes without saying that players are free to house rule things however they wish if it suits them; I would personally take your interpretation into a friendly game, for example, but much like above, I would request in such circumstances that my favourite psyker be allowed to use the psychic discipline he is the master of. The interpretation that will stick in your average LGS, hobby centre or tournament is the one I provided, though. I would be perfectly happy to see it FAQ'd so that the shield effect can't be used if the Riptide Shield Generator is destroyed, but until then, it is in the same boat as Imotekh's lightning hitting flyers was.

[bfmusashi]

But does the fluff actually say that ?
Nope, but it there is nothing saying it doesn't either. Far as I'm concerned the Nova Shield is the Riptide running on the power of Burning Justice. Complete with glow. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Burning_justice
It of course plays this when it happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3OJFPTbzO8

[Tynskel]

It of course plays this when it happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3OJFPTbzO8

I am pretty sure that when you activate the Riptide nova reactor successfully, this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COYRxf13tIg

[Magpie]

If that was the case, you would see Ahriman with access to Divination because he is a master diviner.

you're missing the point, fluff doesn't make rules but it can clarify areas of doubt. The powers of Ahriman are clearly shown and I don't see any mention of Divination in any of the rulebook back ground for him.


Referring to me as a "RAWtard"

That wasn't aimed at you, sorry for the confusion.


doesn't change the fact that by what we have, the Nova Shield Effect provides a +3 invulnerable save

Which it is clearly stated comes from the shield generator.

[Magpie]

Nope, but it there is nothing saying it doesn't either.

But there is tho' the shield generator clearly says it gets buffed by the Nova Reactor.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

you're missing the point, fluff doesn't make rules but it can clarify areas of doubt. The powers of Ahriman are clearly shown and I don't see any mention of Divination in any of the rulebook back ground for him.


No, he was just in the Corvidae, THE MOST POWERFUL DIVINATORS THAT THE LEGIONS HAD TO OFFER.

If you are going to make rules up from fluff, then actually know the fluff.

[Magpie]

No, he was just in the Corvidae, THE MOST POWERFUL DIVINATORS THAT THE LEGIONS HAD TO OFFER.

If you are going to make rules up from fluff, then actually know the fluff.

And where is the Divination Psychic Power Table mentioned in all that ?

[Learn2Eel]

you're missing the point, fluff doesn't make rules but it can clarify areas of doubt. The powers of Ahriman are clearly shown and I don't see any mention of Divination in any of the rulebook back ground for him.



That wasn't aimed at you, sorry for the confusion.



Which it is clearly stated comes from the shield generator.

The problem is, it doesn't clarify this area as there is nothing that needs to be clarified. The rule for the Nova Reactor specifically states that "it grants a +3 invulnerable save". Because there is no mention of "boost" or "if" in the wording of the rule. It might seem silly where the fluff is concerned, but the fluff doesn't always carry over well to the rules - as evidenced by Ahriman.

No worries, I didn't take offence to it anyway.

And as much as that may be true in the fluff part, the actual rules themselves don't say so, and thus it is really difficult to argue against them.


And where is the Divination Psychic Power Table mentioned in all that ?

Ask anyone that knows Ahriman's background - or Thousand Sons lore in general - and they will tell you how sublimely silly it is that not only can Ahriman not take Divination, but Thousand Sons Sorcerers can't take any of the rulebook lores. They were psykers without parallel amongst the Astartes and their rules for two editions running haven't reflected that. I'm personally holding out hope that their Heresy army list redeems this failing of the codices. As much as I have fielded them for two editions running now, I can't put up with how...."lazily" they have been treated.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ask anyone that knows Ahriman's background - or Thousand Sons lore in general - and they will tell you how sublimely silly it is that not only can Ahriman not take Divination, but Thousand Sons Sorcerers can't take any of the rulebook lores. They were psykers without parallel amongst the Astartes and their rules for two editions running haven't reflected that. I'm personally holding out hope that their Heresy army list redeems this failing of the codices. As much as I have fielded them for two editions running now, I can't put up with how...."lazily" they have been treated.

Seconded.

[Magpie]

A whine about how the new rulebook has been written and "ask anybody" doesn't alter the FACT that the details in the Tau book for the Sheild Generator specifically says that the Invul of the generator can be buffed by the Nova and that Divination isn't mentioned in Ahriman's entry in the CSM book.

You might want something different and you can homebrew it that way for sure but it doesn't change what is actually written in the books.

[Learn2Eel]

A whine about how the new rulebook has been written and "ask anybody" doesn't alter the FACT that the details in the Tau book for the Sheild Generator specifically says that the Invul of the generator can be buffed by the Nova and that Divination isn't mentioned in Ahriman's entry in the CSM book.

You might want something different and you can homebrew it that way for sure but it doesn't change what is actually written in the books.

Whine? :confused: I used the example of Ahriman to justify that your argument won't be the popular application of the rules, and when you queried the notion, I explained the context.

The "fact" is that the Nova Shield effect states (pg 45); "This grants the Riptide Shas'vre a 3+ invulnerable save." No mention whatsoever of the Riptide Shield Generator. Are you disputing this?

[Learn2Eel]

I am pretty sure that when you activate the Riptide nova reactor successfully, this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COYRxf13tIg

*Subscribed*

[bfmusashi]

I am pretty sure that when you activate the Riptide nova reactor successfully, this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COYRxf13tIg
Unless they're from Vior'la https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l__jSgTAmQ&list=PLF10CB6E18B069A9D

[IronZOGZ]

Ask anyone that knows Ahriman's background - or Thousand Sons lore in general - and they will tell you how sublimely silly it is that not only can Ahriman not take Divination, but Thousand Sons Sorcerers can't take any of the rulebook lores. They were psykers without parallel amongst the Astartes and their rules for two editions running haven't reflected that. I'm personally holding out hope that their Heresy army list redeems this failing of the codices. As much as I have fielded them for two editions running now, I can't put up with how...."lazily" they have been treated.

This is how I feel about Farseers.

Some of the oldest, wisest, most powerful psykers in the universe.

...same mastery level as an Imperial Guard drugged-up suicide psyker.

Fingers crossed they bring Farseers back to psychic prominence. I would happily trade Runes for access to more powers so people would quit *****ing about them and get back into the spirit of the game.

I feel your pain on the Thousand Sons though - I made this argument to a friend of mine about my general disappointment with the Chaos codex and how, it being a 6th edition book, there was really no excuse for how Thousand Sons (or really, most of the cult troops) were treated.

I would like to thank everyone that participated in this discussion - it is beginning to get off-topic mostly due to the fact that my original question has been heartily discussed and answered. Lots of great interpretations for Vindicare and the Nova Shield and my buddy and I now have several solutions to work with in crafting how we will treat this condition on our table and on the table in gaming stores.

[Learn2Eel]

Agreed.

Good to hear that you and your mate have resolved the issue. When it all comes down to it, the interpretation that matters most amongst friends is the one you both prefer.