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Melissia
11-01-2009, 08:20 AM
ALL (mostly) CURRENT INFORMATION ON THIS CODEX HAS BEEN RECENTLY CONSOLIDATED INTO THIS SINGLE THREAD TO MAKE THINGS EASY TO FIND. (http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Ally&thread=10614)

Click the above link to go to the thread on the Imperial Guard message board. It has everything, and is mostly up to date barring some lost information in the previous gargantuan thread.



I just noticed this section, and so I'm reposting this thread here. I'm kinda on hiatus because of my college courses taking priority right now, but I hope to finish it up. The codex itself is almost done.

It's a very long and involved project I've had going on, on the IGMB, which I can't reproduce here in its entirety simply because it's so large-- 20-ish unit profiles have been finished thus far, including expanded wargear, updated special rules, and so on. It is, to me, what would be an idealized fifth edition Sisters of Battle codex. at its best as a fifth edition codex, albeit it is not yet complete.



Costs were slightly raised in some places and lowered in others, with the Seraphim and Repentia taking the biggest hits in prices, Seraphim reduced to 20 per model and repentia... well, they were entirely reworked.
Celestians are slightly increased in price, as are Battle Sisters, but they get more options and wargear to make up for it-- such as frag grenades and bolt pistols. On a related note, Sarissas are reworked as well, and feature prominently in the Celestian unit entry.
Acts of Faith are simplified, but for the most part aren't changed too drastically.
HQ units were completely reworked, to make them more in line with C:SM and C:IG HQ units, and to give the Sisters more options and a slightly deeper fluff.
A couple more tanks were added in to heavy support, and Retributors were given a couple more options. The Leman Russ Vengeance is a more expensive long-ranged anti-tank option to compete with the Exorcist, while the Heirophant Siege Tank is a variant on the siege tanks common in the Imperium-- a short ranged large blast melta weapon. The Exorcist itself has been reworked and given the option for sponsons which increase the number of shots it gets.
Dominians were reworked to be scouts with a mandatory transport, with the option to take either combiweapons or actual special weapons.
Added a troops choice, novitiates, based off of a combination of fluff from the Ciaphas Cain books and the Dark Heresy roleplay, representing those recent graduates of the Schola Progenium whom have not yet earned their place amongst the Battle Sisters.
Added a feature, "Cults", referring to religious cults within the Sisterhood which worship the Emperor in different ways.
The Cult of the Nightflame are (expensive) infiltrators with flame based weaponry.
The Cult of Penitence refers to the Repentia, and have been reworked to be more fluffy and more effective (their scraps of cloth aren't equivalent to carapace armor anymore, for example).
The Cult of the Umbral Cloak (which I haven't added in entirely yet, as I am unsure if I should really add that many units to the codex) is a close combat oriented infiltrator unit.
Cult Squads are limited to 0-1 in normal games, 0-2 in expansions such as planetstrike, and unlimited in apocalypse.
Added more deep striking, infiltrating, and scout outflanking options to give the list more versatility. These units are generally more expensive because of this. Most notably, added in the Adepta Sororitas Dropship, a transport based off of the forgeworld Argus Lander model which has been reworked to be similar to a flying rhino.
Added (adding? These units have not been finished yet) a list of units for the Ecclesiarchy itself, represented by mobs of citizen and zealots, squads of priests and so on.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=7887

I'll work on getting a downloadable version if someone wants it, but I have nowhere to host it other than rapidshare, which will limt the number of downloads to fifteen.

Col.Gravis
11-02-2009, 10:05 AM
Some thoughts on your unit choices.

HQ Choices

Adepta Sororitas Heroine - Fine

Angelis Imperial - Effectively a Palentine, Fine

High Priest(ess) - A Senior member of Ecclesiarchy, absolutely should be there.

Priestess of the Machine - Not keen on this idea, given then Mechanicus worshops the Emperor in a different form at best, at worst it's heretical, why do you feel the need to add it? I'd sooner see Priests as a choice in a simialr vein to Commissars, a 'HQ' unit which does'nt take up space on the FoC

Elite Choices

Celestian Squad - Fine

Repentia Squad - Excellent revision

Vindictor Squad - Not keen on this idea, it feels like adding a sniper unit for the sake of it, and does'nt really fit at all with the feel of the army IMHO.

Arco-Flagellants - Fine

Confessor - Okay, how is it different from the High Priest(ess), or is this more of a generic Priest type idea as I alluded too earlier?

Troops Choices

Battle Sister Squad - Fine

Sororitas Novitiates - Excellent idea as a unit to include, though I'd be inclined to just give them Bolters, afterall they are one of the 'holy trinity' of weapons, they're status as Novitiates is quite different by the sheer fact they have Carapace over Power Armour, a major major difference in the way they play by all accounts.

Faithful Citizen Mob - Again excellent choice for a unit to be included.

Fast Attack Choices

Dominians Squad - Could'nt find the progrosed change, but like the sound of them.

Nightflame Squad - Seems a little unnesserary as a new unit, given your limting them ti 0-1 anyway, how about making them a 0-1 upgrade of the similarly tasked Dominions, in a similar fashion to Ork 'Ard Boyz over Ork Boyz?

Seraphim Squad - Again cant find a post detailing the, might be this PC though, no idea what changes are prosposed if any but they're fine already IMHO.

Zealots Squad - ???

Heavy Support Choices

Exorcist Tank Hunter - Sorry I dont like the sponson idea, and to be honest as a concept I think it would look silly on the model, the Exorcist is frankly already very nasty.

Heirophant Siege Tank - Great name, not sure it fits in with the feel of the army to have a Siege Tank though, now something akin to the Imperial Guard Helhound with a ranged flamer would work IMHO.

Leman Russ Vengeance - Nooooooo :( A Leman Russ feels all wrong, the Sisters are to me light-medium armour, not heavy stuff like this, what is your justification for adding this?

Retributor Squad - Fine

Penitent Engine Squadron - Fine

Transport Choices

Adepta Sororitas Dropship - I'm in two minds here, half of me says why not, the other half says why? The thing is your basicly giving them a Valk with less weapons, the thing is the payload is far nastier, at the very least this should take up a FoC choice in a similar vein to a Valk to prevent spamming them - though personlly I'd drop em the more I think about it.

Immolator - Yes

Repressor (See Imperial Armor 2) - Yes+

Rhino - Obviously

Chimera - Not sure about this one, even if the Dropship is discounted thats already three solid transport options, I can see the argument for including it, but I dont think it's needed.

Melissia
11-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Keep in mind, I based my changes off of the Marian Reforms, and so the theme of the Sororitas in this codex is changing from Holy Warriors to Holy Soldiers, if that makes sense. The reformation was started after the Sororitas ranks were devastated all across the board by the wars of the 41st millennium, as zeal and pride caused a great deal of Sisters to make foolish military choices and do things which supported their zeal but greatly diminished the long-term cause of the Sororitas. And so, the woman-- whom had been declared a Living Saint by the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy beforehand-- began to reform the remaining Sororitas as well as begin to rebuild the organization, ensure all new leadership within the organization learns from not only the great tacticians of the past (such as Macharius, for example), but also the follies as well, including the organization's own follies and victories-- no loss is too shameful to remember and learn from, no victory too great that it cannot be reproduced or even surpassed by a brilliant and educated mind.



On the Priestess of the Machine: The Sororitas are the only faction in the Imperium that don't have a justification of how exactly their machines are maintained. As part of the reformations, the Living Saint who initiated the reforms met with the Mechanicus, and made certain agreements with them in exchange for training certain mechanically adept Sororitas in the rites of the Machine, so that their maintenance would be performed within the organization rather than from without, allowing the Sisters to be more independent in function but also raising issues (quite frankly, unnecessarily so) with some Inquisitors and Ecclesiarchal officials who fear that these individuals will corrupt the Sisters, making them accept the Cult of the Machine over the Emperor.

On the Vindictor Squad: I felt that a sniper squad worked perfectly with the shooty nature of the Sororitas, myself. The Vindictor squad also ties in with the Noviciates.

On the Confessors: Correct, they are a reworked version of the Priest listings from C:WH and C:IG. Their name is a reference to the Confessor unit of second edition C:SoB. Basically, there are three "ranks" of Ecclesiarchal officials in this codex. The High Priest(ess), the Confessor, and the Priest(ess)-- the High Priestess is an HQ unit, the Confessor is an attachable unit, and the Priest is a squad leader or the retinue of the High Priestess.

On Noviciates: I didn't give them bolters because I wanted to keep them from being too similar to Scouts. They function, essentially, in one of two ways: As a cheap and expendable assault squad, or as a cheap and large sniper squad. The story being both of these is simple: When equipped with the autoguns, they are essentially seen as doing target practice and improving their marksmanship, except their targets are firing back-- it's why I gave them BS3 instead of BS4. When using the combat shotguns, they are learning how to storm enemy positions, which Sororitas definitely do with their many short ranged weapons.

On dominians: They gained the Scouts special rule, and are able to purchase either lots of combiweapons or a smaller number of special weapons. Their transport also gains Scouts, of course.

On the Nightflame Squad: This goes along with the basic idea of the Repentia, a cult of Sisters whom take an aspect of the Sororitas and take it to the extreme. The Repentia take the self-deprecating nature of Sororitas culture (Described in C:WH as a lifestyle of "extreme self-denial") to the far end of the spectrum. The Nightflame squad, however, takes instead the reverence of flame to the extreme. To the Nightflame, fire is the Emperor's Own Implement-- such as the blindingly bright white fires that were used by the Living Saint Celestine. Essentially, they are pyromaniacs even by the measurement of the Sororitas, and have sought to use ambush and infiltration tactics in order to make better use of their most holy flamers.

On Seraphim: Seraphim were relatively unchanged except for a price decrease. I simply didn't see why Seraphim should be more expensive than Assault Marines.

On the Zealots Squad: It's not complete yet, but the idea is for an assault-oriented squad of, well, zealots. They are intended to have fleet and fnp, but other than that, I haven't decided. They might get Furious Charge instead of Fleet, but I'm leaning towards Fleet.

On the Heirophant Siege Tank: The Sisters don't have the long-ranged weaponry to commit to a long siege, nor do their choices of weaponry really lend them to that. The Heirophant Siege Tank is thus intended as a siege-breaker-- that is, it smashes through defenses and utterly decimates anything in front of it, breaking a hole in the defenses through which the infantry-- the true power of the Sororitas-- can pour through.

On the Exorcist Tank Hunter: Suit yourself. I think it'd look great, and depending on which version of the Exorcist you use, it would either make the pipe organ look even more massive or it would add a single missile launcher on each side of the Exorcist, which itself looks awesome in my mind.

On the Leman Russ Vengeance: Actually, the Exorcist is described as having armor somewhere in the middle between the Predator and Leman Russ. And don't try and say anything about what the Sisters are supposed to have tank-wise. In second edition, their only real "tank" was the Immolator. In third, the Exorcist, a tank hunter with heavy armor, was added.

This means, effectively, the Sisters currently only HAVE two actual tanks (the Rhino being a pure transport). There isn't honestly isn't much to draw upon. The primary reason I picked the Leman Russ as a basis is because it kept the Sororitas from looking too much like the Astartes. It also has the benefit of being more up to date, and is able to carry heavier weaponry. The fact that the current Leman Russ already has multimelta and heavy flamer options helped my decision along.

On the Sororitas Dropship: This was added as a means for Sisters to get from point A (space) to point b (the battlefield). It is essentially a flying rhino, based off of the Arvus Lighter (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm) which already exists in 40K and even has its own miniature-- it is not based on the Valkyrie.

On the Chimera: This is actually intended to be used only by Ecclesiarchal units, rather than those of the Sororitas. Chimeras are much more common than Rhinos, and much easier to procure due to them being present in Guard and PDF.

Col.Gravis
11-03-2009, 06:41 AM
[QUOTE=Melissia;31951]Keep in mind, I based my changes off of the Marian Reforms, and so the theme of the Sororitas in this codex is changing from Holy Warriors to Holy Soldiers, if that makes sense. The reformation was started after the Sororitas ranks were devastated all across the board by the wars of the 41st millennium, as zeal and pride caused a great deal of Sisters to make foolish military choices and do things which supported their zeal but greatly diminished the long-term cause of the Sororitas. And so, the woman-- whom had been declared a Living Saint by the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy beforehand-- began to reform the remaining Sororitas as well as begin to rebuild the organization, ensure all new leadership within the organization learns from not only the great tacticians of the past (such as Macharius, for example), but also the follies as well, including the organization's own follies and victories-- no loss is too shameful to remember and learn from, no victory too great that it cannot be reproduced or even surpassed by a brilliant and educated mind.



On the Priestess of the Machine: The Sororitas are the only faction in the Imperium that don't have a justification of how exactly their machines are maintained. As part of the reformations, the Living Saint who initiated the reforms met with the Mechanicus, and made certain agreements with them in exchange for training certain mechanically adept Sororitas in the rites of the Machine, so that their maintenance would be performed within the organization rather than from without, allowing the Sisters to be more independent in function but also raising issues (quite frankly, unnecessarily so) with some Inquisitors and Ecclesiarchal officials who fear that these individuals will corrupt the Sisters, making them accept the Cult of the Machine over the Emperor.

---> Okay fair enough then, it's something I'd sooner perhaps see left to menials, but then again there ought to be someone in charge of these and this fits, given that they are still presumeably rare perhaps making them a 0-1 choice would be appropriate, but I'm not sure.

On the Vindictor Squad: I felt that a sniper squad worked perfectly with the shooty nature of the Sororitas, myself. The Vindictor squad also ties in with the Noviciates.

---> Shooty I agree, but for the most part it's short ranged an mobile that they specialise at true? Guard specialise you could say at long range, marines meanwhile trully are a jack of all trades, would'nt it therefore suit the Sisters to retain their theme and own specialism by excelling at short range mobile firefights - something which a sniper does'nt really fit in with IMHO.

On the Confessors: Correct, they are a reworked version of the Priest listings from C:WH and C:IG. Their name is a reference to the Confessor unit of second edition C:SoB. Basically, there are three "ranks" of Ecclesiarchal officials in this codex. The High Priest(ess), the Confessor, and the Priest(ess)-- the High Priestess is an HQ unit, the Confessor is an attachable unit, and the Priest is a squad leader or the retinue of the High Priestess.

---> Excellent, like it!

On Noviciates: I didn't give them bolters because I wanted to keep them from being too similar to Scouts. They function, essentially, in one of two ways: As a cheap and expendable assault squad, or as a cheap and large sniper squad. The story being both of these is simple: When equipped with the autoguns, they are essentially seen as doing target practice and improving their marksmanship, except their targets are firing back-- it's why I gave them BS3 instead of BS4. When using the combat shotguns, they are learning how to storm enemy positions, which Sororitas definitely do with their many short ranged weapons.

---> Okay thats fair enough then, I'm not I agree with it, but it makes sense which is good enough.

On dominians: They gained the Scouts special rule, and are able to purchase either lots of combiweapons or a smaller number of special weapons. Their transport also gains Scouts, of course.

---> Sounds excellent, a nice change.

On the Nightflame Squad: This goes along with the basic idea of the Repentia, a cult of Sisters whom take an aspect of the Sororitas and take it to the extreme. The Repentia take the self-deprecating nature of Sororitas culture (Described in C:WH as a lifestyle of "extreme self-denial") to the far end of the spectrum. The Nightflame squad, however, takes instead the reverence of flame to the extreme. To the Nightflame, fire is the Emperor's Own Implement-- such as the blindingly bright white fires that were used by the Living Saint Celestine. Essentially, they are pyromaniacs even by the measurement of the Sororitas, and have sought to use ambush and infiltration tactics in order to make better use of their most holy flamers.

---> Okay that's fair enough, I just think it would be quite possible to roll this character squad so to speak into the Dominions, they dont really lose anything in doing so and special rules can be retained.

On Seraphim: Seraphim were relatively unchanged except for a price decrease. I simply didn't see why Seraphim should be more expensive than Assault Marines.

---> Fine then, I agree they are rather too expensive at present, though as a unit they are solid rules wise.

On the Zealots Squad: It's not complete yet, but the idea is for an assault-oriented squad of, well, zealots. They are intended to have fleet and fnp, but other than that, I haven't decided. They might get Furious Charge instead of Fleet, but I'm leaning towards Fleet.

---> I'm not swung quite by the idea, it may sound daft but I'm not quite sure how they fit in with the army organisation in terms of background at the moment, but I'll wait an see what you come up with.

On the Heirophant Siege Tank: The Sisters don't have the long-ranged weaponry to commit to a long siege, nor do their choices of weaponry really lend them to that. The Heirophant Siege Tank is thus intended as a siege-breaker-- that is, it smashes through defenses and utterly decimates anything in front of it, breaking a hole in the defenses through which the infantry-- the true power of the Sororitas-- can pour through.

---> Okay, I can see the need, and that is fair justification, I'm sold on it.

On the Exorcist Tank Hunter: Suit yourself. I think it'd look great, and depending on which version of the Exorcist you use, it would either make the pipe organ look even more massive or it would add a single missile launcher on each side of the Exorcist, which itself looks awesome in my mind.

---> Okay, I should'nt have gone into the aethetics of it, at the end of the day I just dont think it need's a change at all, very few sisters players dont take them already with good reason, if anything they could take a price break, or perhaps something to offset the fact they struggle somewhat more against AV14 now (taking a leaf out of the Dawn of War games and making them indirect springs to mind).

On the Leman Russ Vengeance: Actually, the Exorcist is described as having armor somewhere in the middle between the Predator and Leman Russ. And don't try and say anything about what the Sisters are supposed to have tank-wise. In second edition, their only real "tank" was the Immolator. In third, the Exorcist, a tank hunter with heavy armor, was added.

This means, effectively, the Sisters currently only HAVE two actual tanks (the Rhino being a pure transport). There isn't honestly isn't much to draw upon. The primary reason I picked the Leman Russ as a basis is because it kept the Sororitas from looking too much like the Astartes. It also has the benefit of being more up to date, and is able to carry heavier weaponry. The fact that the current Leman Russ already has multimelta and heavy flamer options helped my decision along.

---> In games terms thats a small field, in background terms it's huge, remember that a Russ is a heavy battle tank, anything better is a landraider or has structure points to represent that effectively, akin to a german Tiger or Panther perhaps, the Predator is more of a light cruiser tank, something like a Crusader - it's the crew which makes it that much nastier.

I dont feel heavy armour of that degree belongs here, Sisters are similarly to Marines fast and agile, they're not an army which should be designed to fight protracted tank to tank duels in the classic sense, that is what the Guard is there to do. It flat out feels wrong, I appreciate you want to give them more variety, and
make them that much more different to Marines, but simply drafting in a Guard tank does'nt do that, it's a short cut frankly which spoils the feel of otherwise a characterful codex revision, I'm not saying dont include another vehicle, just not this one, create something new that is'nt a Leman Russ, at the moment it feels utterly utterly wrong IMHO - and I dont think I'm alone in feeling this.

On the Sororitas Dropship: This was added as a means for Sisters to get from point A (space) to point b (the battlefield). It is essentially a flying rhino, based off of the Arvus Lighter (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm) which already exists in 40K and even has its own miniature-- it is not based on the Valkyrie.

---> Okay fair enough on it's presense, though I would still argue stongly in favour of making it take up an FoC slot rather then being a dedicated transport - I'm sure your thinking in terms of taking one or two in an army as a useful extra, I'm thinking in terms of someone who is out to break your list taking nothing but Dropships - it is infinately abuseable something you need to try an put a cap on as elsewhere.

On the Chimera: This is actually intended to be used only by Ecclesiarchal units, rather than those of the Sororitas. Chimeras are much more common than Rhinos, and much easier to procure due to them being present in Guard and PDF.

---> Okie doke, I'm not sure that they're that much more common then a Rhino, I've seen multiple references to the contray in canon background, but they're fine for Eccesiarchal units I guess.

Faultie
11-03-2009, 08:51 AM
I won't address units that aren't developed yet, because I don't know where you'll go with them. Just a few notes, though:

1. HQ Choices - I think these are great, but am a bit lukewarm on the Techpriest...errr...Priestess of the Machine. If you have to leave it, I think 0-1 is the best.*

2. Troops Choices - The core of the army, and still really good. These are my favorites in my SoB armies.

3. Elites Choices - Useful Repentia! Also, cool other units! I hope you make Arcoflags a bit better (they're nice, but T4 (or is it 5?) 1W just doesn't cut it for a 30+pt model. FNP is something I definitely see there. Vindicators...yeah.*

4. Fast Attack Choices - I think Dominions are still great, but feel that the Sisters of the Nightflame is better off as an upgrade set/ability/whatever to Dominions. Take Dominions, pay the premium, and she-bang! Nightflames.

5. Heavy Support - This is where the train starts getting bumpy off the rails.
a. Exorcist Tank Hunter - I love my Exorcists. Never leave home without 2 at least. However, the minilaunchers don't feel right. If these missiles and launchers could be so easily replicated and placed on things, they would be. As is, they're finicky and only rare, and I think just tacking them on the sides of current Exorcist tanks is a bit hard of a fluff-pill to swallow.*
b. Hierophant - This sounds like a great idea (a linebreaker more than a siege tank, really), and I await its rules.
c. Leman Russ - I agree with others I've seen (here and elsewhere). This just doesn't feel like it belongs.*
d. Retributor Squad - Very yes on Blessed Ammo heavy bolters! Great idea! My only comments are: Just allow them to take Autocannons (like pre-heresy Devastators might), and call it a day. Making up a whole new weapon that fires twice as much as an Autocannon, but requires two crew...just let two of them take an Autocannon. Simpler and nearly as effective. The other issue I have is more of your proliferation of the Exorcist missile from rare weapons reserved for ancient war engines, to "tack it on here and there and let's go!"* Maybe just give them a missile launcher with an alternate warhead (Rending?) and call it a day?
e. Please make PEs worthwhile! Please! Please! :)

6. Transport Choices -
a. Immolator - Can't fix what ain't broken! It's fantastic, and it's still fantastic. I might check the points cost a bit (not sure which way), but it looks good. I love the pintle flamer option (like on Repressor.)
b. Repressor - But of course! I've got multiple, and would buy more if GW would only put them in an actual codex. They're one of the few FW vehicles whose rules aren't completely over the top.
c. Rhinos - Updated to the new standard of rules, etc. Thank you x 1000.
d. Chimera - What's this here for? I don't really get it. Who is going to use it? Inducted Guard? Novitiates? It's less common than the Rhino, from what I've read, and mostly reserved for IG (who need IFVs more than most). I don't know that I'd ever take it in a fluffy SoB force (I have never taken one in my WH armies).
e. Dropship - Good idea, but if you're going to use the Arvus (or Aquila), then use them. Don't take all the good bits, add more good bits, and leave out the FOC requirement. The balance of the Arvus (I have always loved the model, btw) is that it is unarmed and cheap and fast. Your version removes cheap (but not by much) in exchange for an anti-armor doombringer for every unit. I would either add a FOC requirement, or only allow select units to field them. See below*

In general, and overall, I think this is a GREAT revision, and gets my SoB back to being the SoB (instead of just the patsies of the WH/OH). I'm loving about 90% of this codex (so far), and can't wait to see what else you come up with. Well done!

*Options, units, etc. with an (*) are marked such due the fact that (to me) they break the feel of the army, and help those skeptical of this codex in their arguments that it isn't a fluffy 'dex, but rather a "let's win" type. Each one of these feels like it was added solely for meta-game gain, not for any fluffy reason. Need snipers? Let's add them. Leman Russ? Alright. Exorcist is good, but want more missiles? Sponsons!

I just don't feel they fit. You can give justifications for it, but they feel made up after-the-fact. Excuses for having rather than explanations. You may disagree, and its your homebrew rules so do as you will. I just wouldn't think to fit them into a fluff army, which SoB innately are.

But do as you will, and I still say "Well Done!"

DarkLink
11-03-2009, 12:00 PM
Couple of things I noticed:

The ophilia pattern heavy bolter seems odd. It doesn't seem so much a heavy bolter as a shoulder-fired autocannon, almost. I think it's just the name, though, specifically the heavy bolter part.

I have to agree the Russ doesn't seem to fit. The most simple explanation I can think of for Sisters is this: all female, religiously indoctrinated guardsmen, who use Space Marine equipment. They're the middle ground. They don't get the stats of Space Marines (other than the power armor and BS), but on the other hand they don't get the heavy artillery the Guard does.

The Drop Ships are a little cheap, I think, compared other, similar vehicles and considering to how useful they'd be for Sisters.

The Mace of Banishment seems like a good way to piss of you opponent so much that (s)he starts cussing up a storm.
"Ok, I'm going to use Warptime on Ahriman-"
"no, he can't, he was wounded so he lost all his psychic powers"
"but he's frickin' Ahriman-"
"nope, no more psychic powers"
"what the [deleted by Inquisition for blasphemous profanities and graphic content]"

Aside from that, though:



But do as you will, and I still say "Well Done!"

Overall, I have to agree. Aside from a few oddities (which are expected), this is a fantastic job.

Melissia
11-03-2009, 02:38 PM
Actually, the Mace of Banishment was GW rule, not mine. My own proposed rules in the past for that particular character were much more sedate. This rule can be found reproduced on BoLS' own reproduction of the White Dwarf article, in Witch Hunter Strike Force.


For the dropships, how about removing the ability to change the nose-mounted weapon? And so it stays at twin-linked storm bolters.

Faultie
11-03-2009, 02:57 PM
For the dropships, how about removing the ability to change the nose-mounted weapon? And so it stays at twin-linked storm bolters.I think doing so would cement it as more of a "flying Rhino" as you envisioned, and keep it from being death-on-wings. An Arvus "upgraded" to having a twin-linked Stormbolter is pretty good for flying into hot zones. I think that restricting it to such would remove the need for a FOC slot. For 85pts, it's a Rhino w/ Fast Skimmer for +50 pts. Not bad.

DarkLink
11-03-2009, 08:47 PM
Actually, the Mace of Banishment was GW rule, not mine. My own proposed rules in the past for that particular character were much more sedate. This rule can be found reproduced on BoLS' own reproduction of the White Dwarf article, in Witch Hunter Strike Force.


For the dropships, how about removing the ability to change the nose-mounted weapon? And so it stays at twin-linked storm bolters.

Heh, I bet you're getting tired of explaining to people, "GW did this, not me". I noticed that in a lot of the unit entry threads. Guess it's a symptom of the rarity of Sisters that most people don't know their rules too well.

Yeah, I think an 85pt flying Rhino would work pretty well.

Melissia
11-03-2009, 09:05 PM
Personally, I'm open for ideas on how to redo her. It seems like a throwback to second edition.

DarkLink
11-03-2009, 09:30 PM
Maybe wound psykers on a 2+, or reroll to hit? Maybe both? Psykers are common enough that it's pretty good, and less likely to rub the other player the wrong way. Of course, that''s very similar to the power stake rule, iirc.

Faultie
11-03-2009, 10:18 PM
Maybe wound psykers on a 2+, or reroll to hit? Maybe both? Psykers are common enough that it's pretty good, and less likely to rub the other player the wrong way. Of course, that''s very similar to the power stake rule, iirc.
If it's not only supposed to mess up Psykers, but also take their powers, you might find some combination of the Power Stake and the Null Rod. Basically it wounds Psykers really well, and prevents Psychic powers working against her. If she's in melee with a Psyker, it effectively can't use its powers on her, but it doesn't lose them for the whole game (i.e. if it kills her, or if it has some form of disengagement power, etc.)

Just throwing out ideas.

Melissia
11-03-2009, 10:34 PM
Honestly, I hate the idea of tying it to her wargear. It feels like it takes away from her awesomeness.

I'd rather it be some other rule. She killed a Hive Tyrant in one on one combat, she shouldn't be denigrated by this being attributed to her wargear.

Melissia
11-03-2009, 10:45 PM
Also, my idea for the Heirophant was one of the following:

R24", S8 AP1, Heavy 1 Large Blast (Applies melta on a direct hit)
Or
Template, S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Melta

Col.Gravis
11-04-2009, 12:34 PM
R24", S8 AP1, Heavy 1 Large Blast (Applies melta on a direct hit)

You may mean this already by saying applies melta on a direct hit, but if not, how about just making the models under the center of the template take a melta hit, otherwise treating it as a normal large blast weapon?

Melissia
11-04-2009, 07:26 PM
That's what I meant by a direct hit-- I guess I got my terms mixed up . Essentially, whatever is underneath the center of the blast gets melta applied to it regardless of distance.

The template was intended to apply melta to everything it hits. Essentially it's a huge, directional blast of pure melta energy, which must be mounted on a siege tank like the LR Demolisher, the Medusa, or the Vindicator.

Sitnam
11-06-2009, 11:38 AM
I have already commented on this piece of work, but I am still eagerly waiting PE's to be added in. I was kinda of iffy about the dropship idea, but as it is far and away from a Sisters Valkyrie or Thunderhawk, it looks fine to me. I have thought a lil more about the Repressor however, and I had a thought: Why not add a upgrade for the pintle mounted flamer to a melta gun, similar to what land Raider Crusader/Reedemers have? Gives the vehicle a little bit more variety.

Chaosgerbil
11-06-2009, 07:05 PM
You can host it on a wordpress blog for free.

Melissia
11-07-2009, 05:40 AM
Probably, but a combination of laziness and just being busy with class has kept me from bothering.

I'd have to reformat all the tables etc etc.

Melissia
11-20-2009, 08:52 PM
First draft of the redone Penitent Engine. I feel that it might be too much, especially with Rampage... but I tried to balance it similar to the Carnifex. I'm wondering if I hsould lower its Toughness but give it Eternal Warrior.

WS: 4
BS: -
S: 5(10)
T: 6
W: 2
I: 3(1)
A: d6+2
LD: 10
SV: 2+/6++
Cost: 100 pts

Type: Monstrous Creature
Composition: 1-3 Penitent Engines )100 pts each)
Wargear:
2x Dreadnought CCW
Heavy Flamer
Cave of Condemnation
Special Rules:
Holy Rage
Rampage
Fearless



Cage of Condemnation
The Penitent Engine is specifically designed to frighten witches and sorcerers. They see far more than what the mortal eye sees; it is said that to a psyker, the visage of a Penitent Engine is a beacon for the divine wrath of the Emperor Himself.
-- Confessor Hugh Emerson
All psykers present within 6" of a Penitent Engine at the beginning of each turn must pass a leadership test or fall back.


Rampage
Watching a Penitent Engine amidst a group of heretics is soothing to the soul. A red mist mixes with the smoke of burning flesh and the screams of the dying and damned, as they are all sent to meet the Emperor.
-- Cardinal Tarlior Vange

If a Penitent Engine is reduced to no wounds by any method (including attacks and psychic powers that remove the Penitent Engine entirely, or attacks and psychic powers that remove all wounds from the creature such as older force weapons), it instead loses one Dreadnought CCW and its heavy flamer is reduced to a flamer. Its number of attacks change from D6+2 to D3+2. If the Penitent Engine loses both Dreadnought CCWs this way and again loses its last wound, then its attacks change to 2, and it loses the strength enhancing effect of the Dreadnought CCW but reverts to its native Initiative; furthermore, it loses its flamer. After this, if it loses its last wound, roll D6. On a 6, it explodes, otherwise it leaves a wreck as if it were a vehicle.

DarkLink
11-21-2009, 12:32 AM
Yeah, I think the Rampage is a little complicated, mixing Vehicle rules with Monstrous Creature rules too much. Especially since it effectively makes the Engine 5 wounds, though with decreasing effectiveness as it is wounded.

I think removing Rampage, and putting it at 80pts as a 2 wound MC with Eternal Warrior should work pretty well.

In fact, it probably doesn't even need Eternal Warrior, as only stuff like Force weapons would be able to inflict Instant Death, and there has to be some models that Force Weapons can kill:rolleyes:.

Sitnam
11-21-2009, 01:15 AM
Hmm I agree that rampage is over the top, although I do see the value in making the PE durable.

I do like the idea of representing the beserk fighting characteristics of a PE however. Perhaps a rule that gives a FNP save to the PE, and any passed test will give the PE d3 extra attacks?

I feel that the toughness may be a bit too high though. The core of the machine is a comparability fragile human strapped up to a machine which id about as durable as a sentinel. T6 belongs to units such as carnifexs, which serve as living battle tanks. Nurgle Daemons and maybe a few Khorne Daemons reach T6, but those are heavier set and beefier then PE. If a Toughness decrease is given, and if you do drop eternal warrior, then you could justifiably make the PE even cheaper. A speed boosting rule llike Fleet could also fit.

I do like the anti-psyker rule, as it is useful and fluffy but not over the top. 2+ Sv sounded too good at first. But it is a monster made of steel.

The random attacks adds to their beserk nature.

Melissia
11-21-2009, 08:20 AM
In fact, it probably doesn't even need Eternal Warrior, as only stuff like Force weapons would be able to inflict Instant Death, and there has to be some models that Force Weapons can kill:rolleyes:.

But why should it be this one? This is primarily a machine, not a living being. If force weapons should be able to kill this instantly in one hit, then they should also be able to kill land raiders instantly in one hit. Or any other vehicle-- baneblades?

Faultie
11-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Are there any other vehicles/units in the game that have a Toughness value and a DCCW?

Melissia
11-21-2009, 12:56 PM
Are there any other vehicles/units in the game that have a Toughness value and a DCCW?

No. The closest that does exist are tau battlesuits, but those are mostly biological. The Penitent Engine can continue operating long after its "occupant" has died.

DarkLink
11-22-2009, 12:08 AM
But why should it be this one? This is primarily a machine, not a living being. If force weapons should be able to kill this instantly in one hit, then they should also be able to kill land raiders instantly in one hit. Or any other vehicle-- baneblades?

Yeah, you're right. I'm just kinda pointlessly musing on the not-as-common-as-people-think commonality of Eternal warrior. Is commonality even a word?

There are rumors of Carnifexes getting DCCW's, but we can't really do a comparison until the codex actually comes out.

Melissia
11-22-2009, 12:51 PM
I have tried to rework Rampage to be simpler and slightly less powerful. Assuming the creature's wounds are set to 3, here is Rampage:


The Penitent Engine can never lose more than one wound at a time-- it is unaffected by instant death, and effects that remove all wounds at once or just remove the model outright simply cause a single wound instead. However, when it loses its wounds, its offensive effectiveness is reduced.

When it loses its first wound, its attacks become D3+1 and its heavy flamer becomes a flamer. When it loses its second wound, its attacks become D3, and lose the DCCW quality, and it loses its flamer. When it loses
its final wound, roll D6. On a roll of 5+, it comes back with -1 to its attack roll (minimum one).



And then we can reduce the Toughness to balance it out for its price.

B_Steele
11-25-2009, 02:38 PM
I dunno Melissia, it really looks like you are re-inventing the wheel in alot of places. I am SO with you that the Sisters need some lovin', hell...all of the Inquisition needs a new coat of paint. But what you have done here has really added a BUNCH of new ideas and rules-mannerisms to the game just for the Sisters that, IMO, are unnecessary.

Sure, they need some new stuff...but it should fall in line with the rest of the codices that are being released.

The three things that leap out at me are the weapon that can pop a daemon prince off the board in a single hit (which Grey Knights cannot even do!), the "melta on a hit result" weapon and a Penitent engine that is more powerful than a Wraithlord for less (and is still a squad?).

I would say that some of these things sound really neat for an Apocalypse datasheet, but not commonplace codex rules.

Hear! Hear! for new Sisters rules...but maybe they should stick to how things in the game generally work rather than coming up with brand new rules-isms altogether.

Just my $0.02,
Bry

Melissia
12-16-2009, 12:20 PM
This DOES fall in line with the new codices. I based the changes in this codex off of C:IG and C:SM.


The weapion was rebalanced later.

The Melta on a direct hit was changed for balance reasons (it originally applied melta to anything iwthin its blast radius).

The Penitent Engine is still having its balance worked out.


Your input on the P.Engine and the spear both would be appreciated-- I mean actual input, not just some crap like "ths is bad", but something that actually HELPS me. The tank is not up for debate, however, simply because I'm tired of debating the exact same points over and over again because new people are unwilling to read my *******ed thread and read the OLD debates.



I was pondering changing the Cult of the Nightflame to be bikers, but honestly I'm just unsure. Would be neat, but might be too similar to SM.

Melissia
12-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Here's what I came up with to replace the Sisters of the Nightflame.



Fast Attack
Cult of the Blazing Sun
Considered somewhat degenerate by the common Sister, the rough and brutal Sisters of the Blazing Sun are nonetheless utterly fanatical. They desire to get into combat as fast as possible and rip their enemies apart with their twin blades, seeing the sword as a holy weapon of the Emperor. To accommodate this, they have taken up armored motorcycles, allowing them to charge into combat right smack into the enemy line so that they can start cutting into their opponents.

The Sisters of the Blazing Sun do not have the refined faith of their foot-slogging Sisters, rather, they are simple and brutal in their message. This is admirable-- they never question their faith-- but at the same time, the more intellectual Sororitas question whether or not they truly understand what it means to be faithful.

Cost: 110 Pts
WS / BS / S / T / W / I / A / LD / SV
Blazing Sun Superior
4 / 4 / 3 / 3(4) / 1 / 4 / 2(3) / 10 / 3+
Blazing Sun Sister
4 / 4 / 3 / 3(4) / 1 / 4 / 1(2) / 10 / 3+
Type: Infantry, Bikes
Composition: 1 Blazing Sun Superior, 4-9 Blazing Sun Sisters
Wargear: ]Blazing Sun Bike, Power Armor, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, 2 Close Combat Weapon
Rules: Fearless, Cult of the Blazing Sun, Unrelenting Zeal, Adepta Sororitas

May add up to 5 more Blazing Sun Sisters for 21 points each.
Up to two Storm Bolters on Blazing Sun Bikes may be exchanged with the following:
Flamer: +5 pts
Meltagun: +10 pts
If the entire unit uses Storm Bolters, up to two Blazing Sun Sisters may exchange their close combat weapons for the following:
Two Power Weapons: +10 pts
Eviscerator: 20 pts
The Blazing Sun Superior may exchange her one or both of her close combat weapons for the following:
Brazier of Holy Flame: +10 pts
Eviscerator: +25 pts
Power Weapon: +10 pts
Twin Master-Crafted Bolt Pistols: +15 pts





Blazing Sun Bikes
Adorned with symbols of religious zeal and righteous wrath, these bikes are consecrated and held dear to the Sister who rides them, each one becoming as a temple to her-- and nothing motivates a Sister more than fighting from within her own temple!
See the Bikes section of the rulebook.
Blazing Sun Bikes are equipped with a storm bolter and grant +1 toughness, as well as extra movement.


Unrelenting Zeal
Once a unit of Adepta Sororitas has entered close combat, the Sisters of the Blazing Sun cannot resist their desire to enter combat as well. If an Adepta Sororitas unit is assaulted or assaults an enemy unit, the Sisters of the Blazing Sun count as having Holy Rage. Furthermore, they MUST assault the nearest unit. They cannot take actions that prevent them from assaulting.


Cult of the Blazing Sun

Not affected by the Book of Saints rule. The Cult of the Blazing Sun has the following limitations:

Normal games: 0-1
Other games: 0-2
Apocalypse games: Unlimited

*other games includes planetstrike and cities of death

Atrotos
12-16-2009, 06:48 PM
This is quite a powerful unit and I think you were correct in limiting them to a 0-1 choice. The fact that this squad can benefit from acts of faith makes them especially dangerous and might cause you to re-evaluate their cost after some playtesting even though they seem balanced right now. The modeling opportunities are awesome.

A word on writing: This may not be important to you or maybe this is just placeholder text written in a hurry but if I could comment I'd advise you to avoid word repetition and pay closer attention to sentence structure:







The Sisters of the Blazing Sun do not have the refined faith of their foot-slogging Sisters, rather, they are simple and brutal in their message. This is admirable-- they never question their faith-- but at the same time, the more intellectual Sororitas question whether or not they truly understand what it means to be faithful.


Presentation is a big part of rule composition and your rules are consistently well structured and even use those bullet point codes that I find difficult to work with to great effect. You're clearly a talented rules designer and there's no need to limit yourself with unimaginative wording.

"The Sisters of the Blazing Sun do not partake in the more refined divine practices that are characteristic of more Orthodox Sororitas. Instead, just as their namesake implies, they are brazen and overt in their faith; seemingly unhinged by the throes of their conviction. Though their results are above reproach some of their more conservative counterparts wonder if the Sisters of the Blazing Sun have not smudged the line between righteous faith and unthinking zealotry."

I'm not a professional, and my writing is not as sophisticated as I'd like it to be, so please don't mistake friendly advice for anything else. I'll be anticipating more good material from you in the future.

Melissia
12-16-2009, 07:08 PM
Yes, it is very powerful. It can make 10 power weapon attacks at S3/I3, S3/I5, or S5/I1, with Acts of Faith.

But the issue is that I cannot make them too expensive-- just like I cannot make them too powerful. Sisters units are generally below the cost of Marine units, and above the cost of Guard units. And their effectiveness is, likewise, although right now Sisters are outdated and so the Marines are far above them in points efficiency (which is one of the problems this codex is trying to fix).

I could increase their cost, but the closer they get to space marine bikers, the less I'll like it.



Also, the idea behind the "Cults" is simple-- there is religious variation within the Imperium, and sometimes this effects the Sisters. Thus:

Cult of Penitence (Sisters Repentia)
Cult of the Nightflame (Sisters of the Nightflame)
Cult of the Umbral Cloak (Umbral Sisters)
Cult of the Blazing Sun (Blazing Sun Sisters)

These are all intended to be powerful choices that offer unique prospects for the army, however, Sisters are quite orthodox and conservative, they don't embrace chance or difference as much as other cultures might. And so while they tolerate these cults for their usefulness, they do not allow them to prosper, therefor 0-1 limitations.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer
12-19-2009, 08:57 PM
I'll work on getting a downloadable version if someone wants it, but I have nowhere to host it other than rapidshare, which will limt the number of downloads to fifteen.

Check out www.scribd.com. It provides free hosting for long pdfs, it's fairly popular for fandexes.

Melissia
12-20-2009, 02:18 AM
I don't have a PDF editor. IF I upload it, it'll be a .doc file.

Sitnam
12-20-2009, 06:11 AM
Yes, it is very powerful. It can make 10 power weapon attacks at S3/I3, S3/I5, or S5/I1, with Acts of Faith.

But the issue is that I cannot make them too expensive-- just like I cannot make them too powerful. Sisters units are generally below the cost of Marine units, and above the cost of Guard units. And their effectiveness is, likewise, although right now Sisters are outdated and so the Marines are far above them in points efficiency (which is one of the problems this codex is trying to fix).

I could increase their cost, but the closer they get to space marine bikers, the less I'll like it.



Also, the idea behind the "Cults" is simple-- there is religious variation within the Imperium, and sometimes this effects the Sisters. Thus:

Cult of Penitence (Sisters Repentia)
Cult of the Nightflame (Sisters of the Nightflame)
Cult of the Umbral Cloak (Umbral Sisters)
Cult of the Blazing Sun (Blazing Sun Sisters)

These are all intended to be powerful choices that offer unique prospects for the army, however, Sisters are quite orthodox and conservative, they don't embrace chance or difference as much as other cultures might. And so while they tolerate these cults for their usefulness, they do not allow them to prosper, therefor 0-1 limitations.

Are cults altogether 0-1, or each individual cult 0-1?

Melissia
12-20-2009, 11:15 AM
Each individual one is 0-1, although I haven't actually put the Cult of the Umbral Cloak in, so there's really only two actually in right now (Cult of Penitence and the Cult of the Blazing Sun).


edit: actually yeah, I might end up creating a section specifically for cult units now, which are all 0-1 (that is, one cult unit in an army save in apoc, and two of the same units in planetstrike), and can have an effect on the army as a whole...

Melissia
12-20-2009, 11:43 AM
I've come up with the following army rule as a possibility for Cult units, so that I can keep all the ones I've added in as a unique army feature.



Cults of the Adepta Sororitas
Units marked as "Cult of ____" (for example, Cult of Penitence for the Sisters Repentia) are unique, and often powerful and flavorful units which set the tone of the force. An Adepta Sororitas force which includes a Cult unit may be effected by certain special rules provided in the Cult unit's entry.

In a normal game of Warhammer 40,000, you may have a total of 0-1 cult units, meaning you cannot have a Sisters Repentia unit and a Blazing Sun Sisters unit in the same army. This is outside the normal choices, and does not count towards the limit (for example, getting a unit of Sisters Repentia does not count for the max amount of Elites choices you may take).

In other non-Apocalypse games of Warhammer 40,000 such as Planetstrike or Cities of Death, you may have a total of 0-2 cult units of the same type, meaning you cannot have a Sisters Repentia unit and a Blazing Sun Sisters unit in the same army. The first Cult unit is outside the normal choices, and does not count towards the limit (for example, getting one unit of Sisters Repentia does not count for the max amount of Elites choices you may take, but the second one does).

In an Apocalypse game of Warhammer 40,000, the Cult units function as normal units in an Apocalypse game.




I'm also planning on including the Cult of Redemption (Red Redempionists) to go along with these rules. The Red Redemptionists will be an Ecclesiarchal cult unit with cheap one-shot flamers, somewhat cheaper eviscerators, and an adaptation for Steadholders (as described in Dark Heresy).









edit: As a side note, for those interested, read up on the Marian Reforms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms). That's what I'm using as a fluff basis for the changes to the Adepta Sororitas, not that I'd need it (codices can retcon any fluff they want), but advancing the storyline makes it more interesting IMO.

DarkLink
12-22-2009, 06:33 PM
I don't have a PDF editor. IF I upload it, it'll be a .doc file.

Go download Open Office. It's a free set of progames similar to Word/Excel/Powerpoint/etc, and the Word equivalent lets you easily convert the files to PDF's, literally at the click of a button. You should be able to simply download the file, open your codex document with Writer and find the Convert To PDF button (easy to find). Click and save, and you've got a PDF.

Melissia
12-22-2009, 07:14 PM
I'll go look it up, thanks.

Melissia
01-06-2010, 01:53 PM
I'm working on translating that thread into a pdf file. When I'm done I'll upload it and post the link here.

Madness
01-16-2010, 01:59 AM
I need to work on my Quark XPress skills (same package GW uses to make official codices), if you provide me with some artwork I coul crank up a faux-dex that looks like the official ones (but with a big large red "unofficial" to avoid confusion).

Madness
01-16-2010, 08:57 AM
It was a boring saturday http://tinypic.com/r/15rxgd3/6

Madness
01-18-2010, 06:37 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/file/kndfzymmmwm/Codex%20-%20SoB.pdf

A little test with placeholders, just for fun. Wondering if I want to create a different watermark, C:IG has 3, but they are very simple, C:Tyranids has 2 completely different ones (albeit similar looking) C:SW has 3, the frost pattern and 2 very similar rune strips, C:SM has only one. TBH I wouldn't know how to do a different one.

DarkLink
01-18-2010, 08:02 PM
I like that cover picture

Madness
01-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Source: Canoness Elana by Andrea Uderzo (http://andreauderzo.deviantart.com/art/Canoness-Elana-42893709). Slightly modified.

Melissia
01-20-2010, 10:43 AM
The cover is tastefully done. I prefer this (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Other/45f181ba6f70xb8.jpg), myself. This (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/BattleSister.png) if it had background behind it instead of just plain white...

As for your current PDF file, it looks like a good format. I'm not putting in tons of fluff, though... mostly because I don't want to bring GW's ire for poting such a comprehensive source of fluff for all the public to read.

Madness
01-20-2010, 11:34 AM
It was mostly a study on how to get such a thing done, the placeholders can stay there be it necessary, or one could even skip a section altogether. It was an excuse to get dirty with QuarkXpress (which I ditched in favour of InDesign).

About the cover, I'm up for almost anything, as long as it has color in it, this (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/BattleSister.png) is nice as long as I photoshop something in the white bits.

Anyway, if you can provide me with some stuff I can throw it in and see how cool I can get it to look.

Melissia
01-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Here's all the Adepta Sororitas Sororitas art on my account, mostly Fanart because that's most of what's out there:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/BattleSister.png (From 2nd ed C:SoB)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/SistersOfBattleHelm.png (From 3rd ed C:WH)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/SistersArmor.jpg (DoW:SS promo art)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/HolyOrders.png (icons of the major orders, from DoW:SS)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1239103246584.jpg (Fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/PalatineElisaUbanek.jpg (Fanart lineart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/AnimeSororitas.jpg (Anime-esque fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Other/1210250022443.jpg (Anime-esque fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Adepta_Sororitas_by_FirstKeeper.jpg (Fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Battle_Sister_by_IronShrineMaiden.jpg (Fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/1230052783344.png (Fanart, manga-style)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Other/Sister_Dominique_by_dnomrah.jpg (Fanart)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Adeptus_sororitus_by_Sly_Stalker.jpg (Fanart lineart)

If you want more, I'll see about uploading more later.

Madness
01-20-2010, 04:59 PM
Well it's your codex, as long as it looks officialish enough I'm cool with it.

What I need to get more done:

Large black and white image for page 4.
Something with impact for page 5.
The army list stuff in downloadable form, possibly pre-formatted so I can copypaste it, touch the layout a little and be done with it.
Battlefield pictures, better if they feature 'eavy metal painted stuff, like stuff scanned from white dwarf or somewhere else.

Melissia
01-21-2010, 08:50 AM
The thing is, I'm not overly intending this codex for release or use at the moment. It's as much a mental exercise as anything. So it is my codex, but converting it into a high quality PDF is your project rather than mine, if that makes sense.

Madness
01-21-2010, 09:13 AM
It does, but I'd hate to create something pretty without any decent content, and designing without a content-based vision (which I can't have) is something I personally hate. Thus my inquiries to the person who develops content to help me direct the graphic effort.

Man,freelancing has improved my salesman skills.

Jokes aside, it's just a chance to do something pretty without pressure, if and when you want to provide said stuff I'd be happy to keep the thing rolling.

Melissia
01-21-2010, 02:09 PM
I'll see about uploading some stuff over the weekend then, and I'll post here when I do.

Melissia
01-22-2010, 07:53 PM
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Sisters_of_Battle_0_by_hoxiaowei.jpg
Mn, I'd love to see that used as the cover, or at least an important page.

Madness
01-23-2010, 06:36 AM
In the current codices there are plenty of full page illustrations, so that's not a problem.

Btw, do you have a larger version?

Melissia
01-23-2010, 11:29 AM
Unfortunately I do not.

Melissia
02-05-2010, 04:37 PM
I don't have my rulebook in front of me at the moment (at work, unfortunately) but if memory serves ordanance is +1d6, take the highest. Melta, obviously, is roll 2d6 for armor pen. Therefore your Ordanance/Melta on direct hit is a Str 8 3d6 take the highest. Throw in the 72inch range and it's kind of crazy.

On a direct hit, you roll 2d6 twice and take the highest result. But this is only one third of the time, on other hits it's only 1d6 twice and pick the highest.

Nabterayl
02-06-2010, 11:37 PM
Mel,

My thoughts ... hope they're useful to you:

On the Fluff:
To be honest with you, I have never gotten the impression that the Sororitas were not soldierly. This seems to be a point that you and I disagree on, but have you polled your various online communities about it? Sisters in their current incarnation strike me as quite professional soldiers, or at least most of them do. In fact, that's one of the things I most like about them. Fanatical zealots in armor are boring to me. Intelligent, educated, motivated, rational women who also have a faith that could put any zealot to shame I find compelling. I mention this just to offer another point of view on the current state of the fluff, as it might bear on the angle you take your "holy soldiers" fluff.

On the Vengeance:
I think you also know my view on the chassis issue, so I'll leave that by the wayside. I'd like to offer the following critique of the Vengeance, though, which I hope you'll find useful:
I don't think "melta" is used as a substance in the vernacular of the universe. Consequently it jars me, as a reader, when Alrauna uses the phrase "with purging melta." I just don't think that's a proper use of the word.
The range of the Vengeance cannon bothers me - not because I have something against Sororitas having a 72" weapon, but in comparison to other weaponry. The lascannon, for instance, has a 48" range, and melta weaponry is consistently depicted as being shorter-ranged than las weaponry. Even the melta gun, which is clearly a far more powerful energy weapon than a lasgun, has only half the weaker weapon's effective range. We know that the power plant of a Leman Russ can push a lascannon beam out to 48". I have a hard time imagining the same power plant pushing a melta beam out to 72". Clearly melta beams can be pushed that far, as the Reaver, Warlord, and Emperor titans demonstrate. But it still seems like the range is off - and after all, a Leman Russ' power plant hardly compares to that of a battle titan.
The background fluff blurb on the Vengeance seems off to me, in that it implies that the Vengeance is a new pattern of Leman Russ that the Mechanicus is "quite pleased with." That doesn't seem like the AM to me - the Mechanicus innovates, to be sure, but it does so while convincing itself that it is rediscovering something that was done in the past (e.g., the Immolator; c.f. the Predator Annihilator approval process). The blurb as written makes it seem like the Vengeance was just adapted for the Sisters' needs, which I would think would give Mars fits. I also don't think that Mars is particularly interested in a vehicle's "performance." "STC designs" as the Mechanicus [mis]understands the term means that the vehicle was used in the Dark Age of Technology, which I would think to Mars means that the design is already perfect as is.

From a tactical/procurement standpoint, what exactly is the point of this vehicle? The current explanation seems dated (by which I mean it looks like you wrote it before really turning attention to the Hierophant). If the Sororitas felt like they needed a heavily armored vehicle to anchor their infantry assaults, well, you've provided it in the form of the Hierophant (a concept I approve of heartily, as you know). This is not a vehicle that fits that bill. The Vengeance seems like it would fill essentially the same function as the Exorcist. Both are slow, heavily armored vehicles with a primary weapon that is well suited to destroying armored threats of all kinds but poorly suited to engaging infantry. This makes me wonder why the sisters would want the Vengeance; it seems redundant.

If you don't mind me suggesting an alternative fluff angle, have you considered making this an Exorcist replacement? I have never bought the view that the Mechanicus can't make more Exorcists, but perhaps you do, in which case it follows that eventually the sisters' tank destroyer motor pool would be insufficient for their needs. Even if you are not of the irreplaceable-Exorcist view, I'm sure destroyed Exorcists are all but irreparable in the field. You might re-cast the Vengeance cannon as a modified Exorcist launcher fit to Leman Russ chassis, making the Vengeance similar to the Stormsword and other field-refit vehicles (it could still be a gun-launched missile, of course, as the actual Exorcist launcher is certainly the least well understood component of the Exorcist itself and thus the least likely to be fit to other vehicles in the field). You might also re-cast the Vengeance cannon as an easier-to-produce version of the Exorcist launcher, which compensates for its lack of multiple launch capability with a longer-ranged missile and larger melta warhead.

Unsolicited:
Have you considered an Act of Faith that would make Sisters units Relentless? This is one of those things I've wanted to see for a long time, and the reason is this: I don't think Sororitas rely on armor to defeat enemy armor. Obviously they have the tools for it in the Exorcist, but doctrinally, I would imagine that the emphasis is on woman-portable weaponry at the front of the offensive - and that in turn makes me think that either sisters retributor or sisters dominion would be a commander's primary anti-tank tools. Of the two, I prefer retributors, and if dominions are re-cast as scouts, that eliminates them anyway. Relentless would let retributors serve the "primary anti-tank unit" role in a way that they don't now, and help to differentiate them from other stand-and-shoot heavy weapon squads.

An Act of Faith of this nature would also permit other sisters to execute some fairly devastating charges - rapid fire at point-blank range, followed up by a charge with sarissas. I know that the Sororitas are primarily an army of rifle(wo)men, and I applaud that, but isn't there room in their fluff for the occasional terrifyingly effective faith-powered assault?

More as I can get around to it ...

Melissia
02-07-2010, 01:12 AM
Though I'm a bit tired of arguing about the Leman Russ Vengeance, you actuallyb ring up points that I feel are relevant.


What I wanted to create with the LRV was a heavy tank capable of fulfilling a generalist role, a more expensive alternative to the Exorcist, as well as something more useful in apocalypse games (with its range being key here). The Exorcist is just so good-- given what all the other Sisters have-- that it's the only thing worth getting at the moment for heavy support choices. That's why I gave the "Pipes" handheld exorcist missiles and the boltcannon for the Retributors, and why I'm adding in the Heirophant, as well as why I reworked the Penitent Engines. I'd like to hear your opinions on those, by the way, they have a more recent reworking in the IGMB thread that I can copy over if you wish.

As for fluff, The LRV essentially fires a miniature melta torpedo, similar to the Hellhound variant's melta cannon. Basically, it is a shell that, upon impact, releases a melta explosion (the size of a small blast in this case). For some reason many people simply don't catch on to that idea, despite the fact that it is an actual official GW thing, not something I just made up on the fly. That's why I described this in other threads as a beefed-up melta cannon taken from a Devil Dog (or conversely, the Melta Cannon is a scaled down version of the Vengeance Cannon, GW certainly is willing to rework fluff at its leisure).

That said, I really could make it a sort of replacement for the Exorcist, easier to work on firing a beefed up version fo the Exorcist Missile, using the Melta Torpedo idea which already is in existence as orbital bombardments. But the Exorcist itself should remain-- I don't view the Exorcist as irreplaceable, just complex and somewhat unreliable. The Leman Russ chassis is reliable and easy to work on, and so it would be much more in line with front line combat than the Exorcist would-- but the Exorcist would be a rather powerful symbol.



As for new Acts of Faith... well, I'm actually considering them, but for specific squads. Like this:


Celestians: "Righteous Charge"
--Announce which squad is attempting this Act of Faith after declaring a 6" assault move, but before actually moving
----The squad may pass the Test of Faith but be prevented from assaulting due to difficult terrain.
--May only target Celestian squads whom have declared a charge.
--Make test of Faith
--If passed, apply this rule to that squad for the duration of that phase:
----Attacks with +1S, +2I

Vindictors: "The Emperor's Eyes"
--Announce which squad is attempting this Act of Faith at the beginning of the shooting phase.
--May only target Vindictor Squads whom have not moved this turn.
--Make test of Faith
--If passed, apply this rule to that squad for the duration of that phase:
----Re-roll both to-hit and to-wound (or penetration) rolls.

Dominians: "Wings of Wrath"
--Announce which squad is attempting this Act of Faith at the beginning of the movement phase.
--May only target Dominian squads still in their transport.
--Make test of Faith
--If passed, apply this rule to that squad for the duration of that phase:
----The squad counts as not having moved no matter how far the vehicle has moved that turn.

Seraphim: "Holy Passion"
--Announce which squad is attempting this Act of Faith after declaring a 6" assault move, but before actually moving
----The squad may pass the Test of Faith but be prevented from assaulting due to difficult terrain.
--May only target Seraphim squads whom have declared a charge.
--Make test of Faith
--If passed, apply this rule to that squad for the duration of that phase:
----Seraphim gain no charge bonuses, but they strike first and then immediately make a Hit and Run move-- the enemy models do not make attacks regardless of initiative.

Retributors: "March of the Faithful"
--Announce which squad is attempting this Act of Faith at the beginning of the shooting phase.
--May only target Retributor squads.
--Make test of Faith
--If passed, apply this rule to that squad for the duration of that phase:
----Squad may fire all weapons as if they have not moved this turn.

Nabterayl
02-07-2010, 02:40 AM
What I wanted to create with the LRV was a heavy tank capable of fulfilling a generalist role, a more expensive alternative to the Exorcist, as well as something more useful in apocalypse games (with its range being key here). The Exorcist is just so good-- given what all the other Sisters have-- that it's the only thing worth getting at the moment for heavy support choices.
From a design standpoint I see and concur with the desire to make non-Exorcist Heavy Support slots worth taking. By the way ... does the Vengeance have the Lumbering Behemoth rule? From a flavor standpoint, as I think you know, I'm not sold on the idea of Sororitas heavy tanks (i.e., AFVs that favor armor to the point of causing performance issues armed and employed to engage any land-based threat), and this feels too close for my personal comfort. But that's all I'll say about that. I intended only to set up:


That's why I gave the "Pipes" handheld exorcist missiles and the boltcannon for the Retributors, and why I'm adding in the Heirophant, as well as why I reworked the Penitent Engines. I'd like to hear your opinions on those, by the way, they have a more recent reworking in the IGMB thread that I can copy over if you wish.
I would appreciate copying over the Hierophant and the Penitent Engines. Thank you for offering. I've searched the thread but I don't see the Hierophant, and the PE data looks no more up to date than what I see here.

Hierophant
From what I know of it, though, I like the Hierophant a lot. As I said in the DH/WH thread, I think the sisters ought to have an infantry tank, in keeping with their riflewoman doctrine. The Hierophant is essentially that, and I think the rules for its main weapon sound just fine, personally. Moreover, from a game design standpoint, it does things on the battlefield that the Exorcist doesn't.

Retributors
The new Retributors I am somewhat less sold on. I like the pipes (dislike the name - it's accurate, but insufficiently baroque in my opinion. Feels to me like it was named by a squadie, not a battle sister) as a reasonable alternative to both the multi-melta and the missile launcher. I love the idea you propose below of allowing them to move and fire with an Act of Faith. The boltcannon stands out to me as feeling wrong, though. I see the role the weapon would play in the squad, but it sounds like you're describing ammunition that is either (i) larger or with more efficient payload than that fired by a Vulcan mega-bolter or (ii) rocket-assisted autocannon ammunition. I dislike (i) because, while there is nothing that says such a weapon couldn't exist, it strains my credulity to imagine the Imperium not putting its largest bolters on its titans. I dislike (ii) because, while again there is nothing that says such a weapon couldn't exist, the Imperium doesn't seem to have done it. Is there a reason that you didn't make it a 36" two-woman assault cannon without Rending? That still fills the anti-transport role nicely, and there is no material difference between S6 and S7 for anti-personnel work.

Penitent Engine
The Penitent Engine I think shows promise but I'm not sold on the mechanics you've chosen. For one thing, it feels ... lumbering. You call its weapons DCCWs, but as far as I can tell they're no different than power fists; i.e., the PE strikes at I1. That feels odd for a Penitent Engine, to me. Additionally, your PE is, on the whole, slower than the current PE. It has a higher charge threat range, to be sure, but having made its phenomenally fast charge it proceeds to swing clumsily about with its buzzsaws at I1. That creates an incongruous image, for me.

It may be that we have different views of what a Penitent Engine should be, so I should explain that I've always viewed PEs as light and fast - quick to cover ground, quick to strike.

One thing I do like about your PE is that it's fairly hard to kill. One thing that has never sat well with me about the current Penitent Engines is just how fragile they are - seems like the Ecclesiarchy would quickly run out of the things if they really were as fragile as AV11 Open Topped. I also like that small arms can threaten it - that driver is awfully exposed.

At the same time, I feel weird that in many ways your Penitent Engines are harder to stop than a venerable dreadnought.

If I were going to do an updated Penitent Engine, I might suggest something like the current AV11 open-topped walker, with two flamers (I really see no reason to treat it as having a single heavy flamer when it plainly has two weapons), two DCCWs, WS4 I3 A1+D6, your version of Holy Rage, Furious Charge, 6+d6" movement, the equivalent of extra armour, and either eldar holofields or dreadnought "venerableness" to represent the fact that these machines must be pretty robust given the way they get used. If I was feeling gutsy I'd make the walker closed-topped but allow the pilot to be hit on a roll of 6+ (i.e., for every attack against the walker, roll a d6; on a 1-5 the attack hits the walker, and on a 6 the attack hits the driver), who could be wounded and killed in a manner similar to an artillery crewman, though the driver would count as part of the walker for all other purposes. A dead driver would mean a dead walker.

In other words, I'd keep it a fragile vehicle (though not so fragile as presently), so as not to have bizarre situations such as a defense laser obliterating a venerable dreadnought while his next door neighbor Penitent Engine keeps on trucking. And then I'd make it fast as all get-out, with an emphasis in the player's mind on the terrible moment that the insane engine of destruction slams into your unit with its flailing buzzsaws.


As for fluff, The LRV essentially fires a miniature melta torpedo, similar to the Hellhound variant's melta cannon. Basically, it is a shell that, upon impact, releases a melta explosion (the size of a small blast in this case). For some reason many people simply don't catch on to that idea, despite the fact that it is an actual official GW thing, not something I just made up on the fly. That's why I described this in other threads as a beefed-up melta cannon taken from a Devil Dog (or conversely, the Melta Cannon is a scaled down version of the Vengeance Cannon, GW certainly is willing to rework fluff at its leisure).
Where are you getting that the Devil Dog's melta cannon fires a projectile? "Thermal blast over a short distance" sounds like an energy weapon to me. As for why people don't pick up on the Vengeance cannon firing a physical projectile with a melta warhead, maybe it's because it's not in the writeup as such. Missile or shell, I have no problems with melta warheads.


But the Exorcist itself should remain-- I don't view the Exorcist as irreplaceable, just complex and somewhat unreliable. The Leman Russ chassis is reliable and easy to work on, and so it would be much more in line with front line combat than the Exorcist would-- but the Exorcist would be a rather powerful symbol.
Okay, we're in agreement about the Exorcist, for whatever that's worth. As for the Vengeance, I'm not sure I agree that it would be treated as a "front line" vehicle. Unless you're positing some fairly radical upgrades to the underlying vehicle, it's still got a maximum overland speed of roughly 20 kph. A slow, heavily armored vehicle with the longest-ranged weapon in the armory given to an infantry-centric force is not one I'd expect to see employed on the front lines - such a vehicle would be well served to engage at long range. It's precisely for this reason that I like the Hierophant - I think a slow, heavily armored vehicle on the front lines fits the Sororitas to a T; I just don't think the Vengeance fits that description.


As for new Acts of Faith... well, I'm actually considering them, but for specific squads. Like this: <snip>
Like these a lot.

sirrouga
02-07-2010, 03:23 AM
I really like Penitent Engine as monstrous creatures. I do think the rules for Rampage are a bit complex for what the effects are through. I think an easier method would be to have the number of attacks equal to d6 + remaining wounds and then increase the number of wounds to even things out. I may also remove the Dreadnought CCW's and just make it base 6 strength, they get 2d6 to penetrate armor anyways from being monstrous creatures.

Oh just a quick note of the Seraphim's "Holy Passion", it doesn't really seem that effective to me as they hit and run and now they are open to shooting since it would then be the opponent's turn. Maybe have it provoke a pinning test?

Nabterayl
02-07-2010, 03:29 AM
What is it exactly about the monstrous creature designation that you like, Sirrouga?

Nabterayl
02-07-2010, 03:48 AM
Hey Mel, I was just paging through the IGMB thread, and it looks like celestians have the option of being equipped with either bolter, bolt pistol, and chainsword, or bolter, bolt pistol, and sarissa.

That translates to A1+1, or A1, with re-rolls to wound.

Mathematically speaking, why would anybody ever choose the latter?

sirrouga
02-07-2010, 03:50 AM
Well there are two things I'm going by on that.

1> Based on the Inquisitor Lord Karamazov character from the Witch Hunters book, this is a character who rides practically a dreadnought into close combat yet is not considered a walker but as a monstrous creature and the throne is actually increasing his abilities.

2> Based on the design of the model itself, the controller is completely exposed to the front on the machine and hard wired into it as well. To me it would seem that just smashing the driver enough times would break the unit down which is something you can't do even with an AV11 Open Topped Walker unless you have grenades or other special weapons and I just don't see the need for such weapons when someone can give a high-five the person control the Engine :P

::Edit 1::
I am not very familiar with the fluff and lore of the sisters so forgive me if I suggest something completely out of place. :(

::Edit 2::
Looking over how monstrous creatures and walkers are described, there isn't really clear cut answer on which it should be. I can see both sides of the debate but I'll stick with what I said already for the time being.

sirrouga
02-07-2010, 04:01 AM
Regarding the Vengeance, it seems everyone has said everything I would say about it already so I'll just add my own piece to the puzzle then run off.

From the looks of things you are looking to have the Exorcist, LR Vengeance, and then the Heirophant Siege Tank. Now just to compare their roles to the Space Marines for a second since the sisters trend to use the same tank chassis for most of their own equipment. The Heirophant Siege Tank seems to be the Sister's version of the Vindicator Tank just as the Exorcist is their version of the Predator Annihilator. The Vengeance is also filling the same role as the Exorcist as well so it just seems like an odd choice that's all.

Random Idea: New concept for the Vengeance, an exorcist with a variant of the Thunder Fire Cannon instead of the missiles. That weapon fires multiple fire burst rounds now! .... or it might be better just to ignore this idea...

Melissia
02-07-2010, 10:24 AM
That translates to A1+1, or A1, with re-rolls to wound.

Mathematically speaking, why would anybody ever choose the latter?
Ask the guys on the Bolter and Chainsword. It was actually them who did it.

I could rework Sarissas to allow for assaulting after rapid fire, but that would be powerful.


I'll post the most up to date version of all three heavy support choices here after lunch.

Melissia
02-07-2010, 01:17 PM
Okay, this is somewhat annoying for me because the BoLS Lounge has no table function.

But here goes.


180 Pts__________BS__FA__SA__RA
Leman Russ Vengeance__4__14__13__10

Type: Vehicle, Tank
Composition:
1 Leman Russ Vengeance
Wargear:
Vengeance Cannon
Hull Heavy Bolter
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers
Special Rules:
Lumbering Behemoth

May exchange Hull-Mounted Heavy Bolter with the following:
Heavy Flamer: Free pts
Multi-Melta: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Sponson Heavy Bolters: 20 pts
Sponson Heavy Flamers: 20 pts
Sponson Multi-Meltas: 30 pts
May purchase one of the following:
Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter: 10 pts
Pintle Mounted Flamer: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Dozer Blade: +10 pts
Extra Armour: +15 pts
Holy Icon: +10 pts
Holy Promethium: +10 pts
Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 pts
Laud Hailers: +15 pts


VENGEANCE CANNON
R72", 28 AP1, Ordinance 1, Small Blast
When rolling the scatter dice, a direct hit applies 2d6 penetration. This is effected by the Ordinance rules-- roll 2d6 twice, and pick the better result.





125 Pts__________BS__FA__SA__RA
Exorcist Tank Hunter____4__13__11__10

Type: Vehicle, Tank
Composition:
1 Exorcist
Wargear:
Exorcist Missile Launcher
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers

May purchase Exorcist Mini-Launcher Sponsons for +35 pts
May purchase one of the following:
Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter: 10 pts
Pintle Mounted Flamer: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Dozer Blade: +10 pts
Extra Armour: +15 pts
Holy Icon: +10 pts
Holy Promethium: +10 pts
Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 pts
Laud Hailers: +15 pts



Exorcist Missile Launcher
R48", S8 AP1, Heavy 2d3


Exorcist Mini-Launcher Sponsons
Add +2 to the Exorcist's result when rolling for number of shots.





Penitent Engine Squadron: 100 pts per model
WS 4 // BS - // S 5(10) // T 6 // W 3 // I 3 // A d6+2 // Ld 10 // Sv 2+/6++

Type: Monstrous Creature
Composition:
1-3 Penitent Engines
Wargear:
2xDreadnaught CCWs
Heavy Flamer
Cage of Condemnation
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers
Special Rules:
Holy Rage
Fearless
Rampage


CAGE OF CONDEMNATION
All psykers present within 6" of a Penitent Engine at the beginning of each turn must pass a leadership test or flee.


RAMPAGE
The Penitent Engine can never lose more than one wound at a time-- it is unaffected by instant death, and effects that remove all wounds at once or just remove the model outright simply cause a single wound instead. However, when it loses its wounds, its offensive effectiveness is reduced.

When it loses its first wound, its attacks become D3+1 and its heavy flamer becomes a flamer. When it loses its second wound, its attacks become D3, and lose the DCCW quality, and it loses its flamer. When it loses its final wound, roll D6. On a roll of 5+, it comes back with -1 to its attack roll (minimum one).




Retributor Squad: 70 Pts base
WS 3 // BS 4 // S 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 1 // Ld 8 // Sv 3+
Retributor Sister Superior
WS 4 // BS 4 // S 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 2(3) // Ld 8 // Sv 3+

Type: Infantry
Composition:
Retributor Sister Superior
4-9 Sisters Retributor
Wargear:
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Frag Grenades
Power Armor
Special Rules:
Adepta Sororitas
Book of Saints

May add up to 5 more Sisters Retributor for +11 pts each
Up to four members may replace bolters with heavy weapons:
Boltcannon: +20 pts
Heavy Bolter: +10 pts
Heavy Bolter w/Blessed Ammunition: +20 pts
Multi-Melta: +15 pts
Portable Exorcist Launcher: +20 pts
Squad leader may choose from the same options as a Battle Sister Veteran Superior
May purchase Krak grenades for +2 pts per model
One member may upgrade to be an Imagifier for 20 Pts


BOLTCANNON
R36", S7 AP4, Heavy 4, Unwieldly
Unwieldly: Takes up two heavy weapon slots, must be operated by two squad members (the second member may not fire that round)


PORTABLE EXORCIST LAUNCHER
R48", S8 AP1, Heavy 1, Anti-Tank Targeting
Anti-Tank Targeting: A to-hit roll of 6 allows the penetration roll to be made against side armor instead of frontal armor.

Melissia
02-07-2010, 01:24 PM
As for the Heirophant, this is still not yet in a finished form that I would actually consider putting in right now, but... it uses the Exorcist chassis, only with better armor, and has a front-mounted melta based weapon of some sort.

Points: ~90-140
BS: 4
FA: 13
SA: 12
RA: 10

Weapon: Heirophant Siege Cannon
Current ideas are one of these:
R24", S8 AP1, Heavy 1 Large Blast, applies Melta to anything in the center.
Template, S8 AP1, Heavy 1, draw a line down the center of the template, and apply melta to any who touch that line.

Wargear: Siege Armor
Successful penetration rolls made against the Heirophant Siege Tank's front and side armor are re-rolled. Glances are not re-rolled this way.


Alternatively, it could simply get FA14 and immunity to dangerous terrain but that feels like a knock-off (becuase it is).

sirrouga
02-07-2010, 05:07 PM
I do like a lot of the concepts that you have created for the army. Now I don't know the background of the Sisters that much so I'm coming more of a game play point of view so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If that is not your goal then feel free to outright ignore me. After all this is your codex and if you want it that way then by all means go for it.

I believe you are trying too hard to make every single thing unique with special rules, special abilities, and special weapons. While making such a design could work in theory, it usually ends up slowing things down as there is so many special rules to remember not only for the player but for the opponent as well. Not only that but even with all the special rules and such most of the stuff is similarly priced or yet cheaper than what other armies have access to. It just seems like you want the best of everything at times without a lot of the extra costs.

Take the Vengeance for example. For how much it costs this thing is a steal as any hit on the scatter dice is practically promising a wrecked vehicle from a long distance with the AP1 and how you have the rules for it. Now you say that the Ecclesiarchy can take whatever they want, which while it is true you might as well just keep the allies rules since that basically what you are doing and at that point you are practically back with the inquisition again. Take the Space Wolves for example, they used to be able a LR tank into every game but it looked odd and out of place in an army consisting of rhino and land raider chassis. Now lets look at the Sororitas Novitiates, granted they are BS3 but each one is equipped with a Sniper Rifle AND a Lasgun or given shotguns with AP5 and ignoring armor saves. That is some serious wargear to be receiving for a brand new recruit and that makes them the cheapest sniper squad in the game and still be effective since they got a great weapon loadout. Finally lets look at the Penitent Engine, I like it being a monstrous creature but it has odd rules that can get confusing over the course of a game (imagine having to keep track of 9 of those things!) and it is the only model in 40k that is immune to effects that would outright remove the model. That is just crazy right there. Not going to go in any more details since this is already a huge post but I hope you understand my point.

I understand you want to make them as how they are in the fluff. However keep in mind that in most cases the fluff over does things to make them look more cool and more amazing than what the game shows. In the fluff, a lone space marine can hold off an entire ork waaaagh, a single assassin can kill 800 orks with a single shot and still be claimed a failure, and a single Greater Daemon is worth calling the entire Grey Knight chapter. In the actual game, none of these are really possible or needed. A single space marine dies from a stray slugga shot, an assassin can have trouble getting 3 or 4 kills in a game, and a greater daemon can be killed by a 10 man IG infantry platoon. While the fluff is great, they have to make concessions in the game world to keep things from being overbearing and even more "unbalanced" as it is.

After reading through some of the entries and units that have been created, I have to say I would honestly not allow this version of the codex in my local gaming circle. Practically everything created is better than what everyone else has access to and often for the same or lower cost. And I do allow other home brewed codexes (so with tweaks here and there) so it isn't just that. You got a LOT of great ideas and new concepts that really expand the army, but things really need to be toned down to really have it shine a great home brew codex.

Melissia
02-07-2010, 06:23 PM
I'm not trying hard to make everything unique, I'm doing my best to make the Sisters have their own full and actual army, exactly what I said I would be doing in thef rist post of my thread. With the exception of Acts of Faith, there aren't that many Special Rules which weren't simplified into a USR or statline, and those that are are equivalent to current fifth edition codices. Furthermore, despite your complaints, you haven't pointed out an actual exmaple of something getting everything without paying for it. For example, the current Battle Sister Squad is actually MORE expensive base than the one we currently have (essentially raising it from 11 points per model to 12.5). Space Marines still get more for their points than the Battle Sister Squad does, Guard are still dirt cheap for what they do, etc etc etc.

A Direct Hit is only 1/3rd of the time on th scatter dice. I said specifically "when you roll a direct hit on the scatter dice", which means even if it DOES hit because of scatter and BS, it does not always apply the rule. Furthermore, it's one of the most expensive LR Variants in the game, but it still only delivers an S8 small blast. The LRBT is 30 points cheaper and delivers an S8 AP3 LARGE blast, forcing enemy infantry to either hide in transports or hide behind cover in order to not get blown to tiny bits.

Novitiates aren't given sniper rifles per se, they're given slightly more expensive autorifles-- "Squad Designated Marksman" type weapons. Ratlings are the same price for a squad of ten, and they have infiltrate, stealth, pistols, longer range, and BS4. Scout Snipers are 40 points more expensive but they also have pistols, frag/krak nades, atsknf, S/T/I 4, combat squads, combat tactics, move through cover, infiltrate, scouts, heavy weapons, etc. Rangers and Pathfinders are more expensive, yes, but then the Ranger Long Rifle is very powerful, they get pistols, fleet, bs4, infiltrate, move through cover, stealth, etc. You've yet to prove the assertion that they are cheaper than they should be for their sniper rifle equipment. You might have an argument with the shotguns, but even then, they're still just BS3 low strength high AP weapons. They don't even ignore flak armor, and even if it can hurt against orks and tyranids those armies have a much better assault capability and very cheap large units.


I'm not "making them how they are in the fluff", if I were to do that I would have to make the Sisters lose all the time, as GW uses the Sisters as butt-monkies and scratching posts.

Madness
02-07-2010, 07:22 PM
If you provide me with a word document, or an rtf, or any type of rich text (even html) I can reformat it and make a pretty pretty pdf. In fact I'd like to.

sirrouga
02-07-2010, 08:17 PM
I'm not trying hard to make everything unique, I'm doing my best to make the Sisters have their own full and actual army, exactly what I said I would be doing in thef rist post of my thread. With the exception of Acts of Faith, there aren't that many Special Rules which weren't simplified into a USR or statline, and those that are are equivalent to current fifth edition codices.

Well when you read through all the new unit concepts, a lot of them have 1 or 2 new entries detailing new special rules or war gear. There are exceptions like the standard Battle Sister Squad. I don't think just about everything new needs all sorts of all new stuff. Just a small tweak can go long ways.


Furthermore, despite your complaints, you haven't pointed out an actual example of something getting everything without paying for it. For example, the current Battle Sister Squad is actually MORE expensive base than the one we currently have (essentially raising it from 11 points per model to 12.5). Space Marines still get more for their points than the Battle Sister Squad does, Guard are still dirt cheap for what they do, etc etc etc.

Well actually your Battle Sister squad are CHEAPER than those in the Witch Hunters Codex. Since you included the Veteran, the book that gives the unit basically the stubborn special rule, added favored enemy -pskers (I'm assuming you meant Perferred enemy) and included frag grenades. However, you are only saving about 14 points so it not really that big a deal. Frag grenades should of been standard anyways. -.-


A Direct Hit is only 1/3rd of the time on th scatter dice. I said specifically "when you roll a direct hit on the scatter dice", which means even if it DOES hit because of scatter and BS, it does not always apply the rule. Furthermore, it's one of the most expensive LR Variants in the game, but it still only delivers an S8 small blast. The LRBT is 30 points cheaper and delivers an S8 AP3 LARGE blast, forcing enemy infantry to either hide in transports or hide behind cover in order to not get blown to tiny bits.

Yes it is the most expensive LR variant and it is only a small blast. However just being AP1 more than makes up for that. Not only terminators now have to hide from across the battlefield but that AP1 really boosts the chance of wrecking any vehicle it hits. Now both the LRBT and the Vengeance are ordinance weapons so I can't really compare that but that just makes sure that AP1 shot gets through. Now you add that if it is a direct hit on the scatter (which is about 1/3 of the time averaging) you get basically a melta with two attempts to get through the armor you got yourself the best anti-heavy vehicle weapon in the game and with a 72" range. The Vanquisher has a similar effect but it is a single shot at BS3 and it is only AP2 so it even doesn't get the bonus to damage. Honestly for just 30 more points than a LRBT, I don't see why anyone wouldn't bring in these on a constant basis.


Novitiates aren't given sniper rifles per se, they're given slightly more expensive autorifles-- "Squad Designated Marksman" type weapons. Ratlings are the same price for a squad of ten, and they have infiltrate, stealth, pistols, longer range, and BS4. Scout Snipers are 40 points more expensive but they also have pistols, frag/krak nades, atsknf, S/T/I 4, combat squads, combat tactics, move through cover, infiltrate, scouts, heavy weapons, etc. Rangers and Pathfinders are more expensive, yes, but then the Ranger Long Rifle is very powerful, they get pistols, fleet, bs4, infiltrate, move through cover, stealth, etc. You've yet to prove the assertion that they are cheaper than they should be for their sniper rifle equipment.

They have the sniper rule so they always wound on 4+ and have rending. Plus the ability to rapid fire on anything that gets too close without having to give up a sniper rifle or rapid fire weapon like scouts have to do to do the same. Plus scouts are also more expensive for their special rules and higher S and T. Sure they also have access to heavy weapons but they don't have dedicated transport options. Ratlings are S2, T2 and are not scoring units so that equals out somewhat and other IG squads are paying extra just to take a few sniper rifles. And Eldar rangers with the pathfinder upgrade are 24 points each, of course they should be fairly powerful. I don't know, having access to a sniper rifle, lasgun, 4+ armor, acts of faith, stubborn for that price is just a bit shaky to me.


You might have an argument with the shotguns, but even then, they're still just BS3 low strength high AP weapons. They don't even ignore flak armor, and even if it can hurt against orks and tyranids those armies have a much better assault capability and very cheap large units.

Well the Adeptus Arbites codex made by BoLS peeps has a shotgun similar to what you have. They still allow cover from area terrain and only get one shot if using that "mode". Plus it does say that Ordo Hereticus does call upon them for assistance so getting hold of their shotguns isn't that far off. But I guess this really that bad through.

Melissia
02-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Celestians do not have any new rules, just reworked versions of the old rules. Seraphim do not have any new rules, just what's in GW's FAQs. Dominians are just given a USR and more wargear choices. Repentia have their rules simplified with USRs as well. Vindictors have a new rule, but then they are a brand new unit. Penitent Engines are the only thing that's completely reworked with new rules, but oddly enough Rampage is actually LESS complex than the current Penitent Engine rules. Acts of Faith themselves were simplified. Retributors had nothing added to them as far as rules go, but they were given new weapons. Immolators were improved through simple pricing and stat changes.

Compare this to the other codices. When Sternguard and Vanguard were added in, they also recieved new rules for them (the ammunition of Sterguard, the assault after deep striking for Banguard), and practically every new unit added in had its own unique weapon or rule for the Space Marine codex. The entire Guard army got new rules in the form of Orders, too, which many people had trouble understanding at first, and let's not get into the new vehicle variants which also had unique wargear and rules like the hellhound variants, sentinels being split into two types, lumbering behemoth and the LR variants...

As for Novitiates, my point wasn't that the other units were better than the Novitiates, rather it's that the Novitiates aren't better than the other "sniper" units, they're just designed to fit in better with the Sisters of Battle army.

Yes, the Vengeance is powerful. It can take down a Land Raider / Leman Russ (but not a Monolith) roughly 1/3rd of the time! So that's potentially three turns of shooting on the same target just to get one penetrating AP1 hit (by which time your Sisters are in melta range anyway)... huh. It's really not as powerful as you are making it out to be.

Melissia
02-07-2010, 08:43 PM
Madness: I'll try and work something up for you soon.

Madness
02-07-2010, 11:29 PM
It's just that one stuff is laid down I'm sure everyone will notice better what is actually too wordy and what's not, there's a reason why good manuals provide a better hint of gameplay power than bad manuals do.

I'm sure you will apply the old "remove half of the complication and then remove half of what's left" once you see it "printed".

sirrouga
02-08-2010, 12:07 AM
Celestians do not have any new rules, just reworked versions of the old rules. Seraphim do not have any new rules, just what's in GW's FAQs. Dominians are just given a USR and more wargear choices. Repentia have their rules simplified with USRs as well. Vindictors have a new rule, but then they are a brand new unit. Penitent Engines are the only thing that's completely reworked with new rules, but oddly enough Rampage is actually LESS complex than the current Penitent Engine rules. Acts of Faith themselves were simplified. Retributors had nothing added to them as far as rules go, but they were given new weapons. Immolators were improved through simple pricing and stat changes.


Well I'm looking at these again since many of the links are pointing to wrong sections and searching through 15 pages of posts to find a bit of information can get confusing so I was thinking you were still working on those designs. Dominion Squads, Repentia, and Penitent Engines I agree with your changes but mostly because I believe those really needed them so I can't complain. Acts of Faith can go either way, making it an unmodded leadership test is easier but it also gives easier access to Passion and Martyr acts. A full squad evoking an Spirit of the Martyr before they lost a single unit can be weird. A squad of 20 sisters marching down the line with Spirit of the Martyr is going to be a huge problem to deal with.

But there are important changes in the other units that can't be ignored. Seraphim automatically passing the initiative test to hit and fun and the Angelic Visage making friendly units I4 are big changes. Retributors have two brand new and extremely deadly guns. The BoltCannon is a giant AutoCannon with shorter range and the "pipes" is yet an other AP1 missile (Sisters really have tons of those things don't they?). And the pipes will pen anything on a 6 except for land raiders and monoliths. Unable to take Immolators as standard units is kinda strange and FA12 (On a rhino chassis?) are strange but alright. Vindicators are scary since they can be BS5 for the first two turns (and longer if shoved somewhere safe) but I think their cost and lack of infiltrate are fine. There are those two special weapons again through.


Compare this to the other codices. When Sternguard and Vanguard were added in, they also recieved new rules for them (the ammunition of Sterguard, the assault after deep striking for Banguard), and practically every new unit added in had its own unique weapon or rule for the Space Marine codex. The entire Guard army got new rules in the form of Orders, too, which many people had trouble understanding at first, and let's not get into the new vehicle variants which also had unique wargear and rules like the hellhound variants, sentinels being split into two types, lumbering behemoth and the LR variants...

Well, actually you got me there especially with the IG.


As for Novitiates, my point wasn't that the other units were better than the Novitiates, rather it's that the Novitiates aren't better than the other "sniper" units, they're just designed to fit in better with the Sisters of Battle army.

I was just pointing out that compared to other sniper units. These guys are really geared out for their cost. Just making it a choice between a sniper rifle, shotgun, or lasgun (or even bolter) may be better. Nothing like running through a full squad of sniper fire only to get hit with a full squad of rapid fire from the same unit. Will that really happen in game, I doubt it but it is still something to think about.

However I do need to bring up something that I think you over looked. I noticing on all your Sniper weapons you have different strengths. ALL Sniper type weapons wound on 4+ regardless of toughness, they have Rending, they cause pinning, and against vehicles ALL sniper weapons are regarded as Strength 3. So your Marksman AutoRifle and Ophelia Pattern Heavy Bolter will wound a plague marine on a 4+ regardless and against vehicles are treated at strength 3. Not sure if this is something that was missed or something else.


Yes, the Vengeance is powerful. It can take down a Land Raider / Leman Russ (but not a Monolith) roughly 1/3rd of the time! So that's potentially three turns of shooting on the same target just to get one penetrating AP1 hit (by which time your Sisters are in melta range anyway)... huh. It's really not as powerful as you are making it out to be.

Working off of perfect averages, you kinda just used a worst case as your defense on it. Against Land Raiders you would need that dead on so it would be less accurate but the shots that do land dead on are practically guaranteed a penetrating hit with the melta and re-rolling (easier to describe that way) and then the AP1 makes it that you have a 50% chance of destroying the target. While the shot may not hit as much, when it does hit it WILL pen and have a good chance of doing something nasty. Against vehicles without armor 14, you don't even need the melta effect since you get the ordinance ability and with it still being AP1 it still has a really good chance to damage or wreck the vehicle. The melta effect is almost basically making it a strength D weapon since you have two chances to roll 7 or above on the STRONGEST armor out there. This is fine with normal melta weapons since you have to get so close but at 72 inches away that is just a bit crazy in my opinion.

And to continue beating the dead horse (poor Mr Ed), it is still the only LR in an army of Rhinos. Edit: Sorry if I can't get past this but it is just strange. Is having something FA14 that important?

Melissia
02-08-2010, 01:01 AM
However I do need to bring up something that I think you over looked. I noticing on all your Sniper weapons you have different strengths.
I added the strength stat to differentiate between the bolter sniper rifles and the autogun sniper rifles when it came to penetration on vehicles. That is the only time it is relevant.

Also, if you think that having FA12 armor on a rhino is strange, I point you to the well-armored Predator and slightly more heavily armored Exorcists, which are both FA13. Indeed, many people have actually suggested I change the LRV into a rhino chassis just to avoid the constant B****ING AND MOANING ABOUT IT. Bitter? No, I would never be bitter about several ... people derailing my thread for close to ten pages complaining incessantly about something which I already said I was not going to change! How dare one think such a thing.

Madness
02-08-2010, 01:12 AM
Sidenote, the imperial (and eldar) sniper rifles are based on the old school needle rifle with is neither bolter nor autogun based, it's laser-based, it's descripted as a long range precision lasgun whose extemely focused light beam carries (god knows how) a poisonous needle.

Melissia
02-08-2010, 01:19 AM
The one that scouts and ratlings use, anyway. Dark Heresy describes a few normal (ie autogun) based rifles, however, and with the design of the bolter it'd make an excellent anti-materiel rifle.

sirrouga
02-08-2010, 04:09 AM
I will just say one last thing then end it here then, no more from me so everyone can rest easily-ish.

If you went to have a game against an Imperial Guard player and you see across the table and see some chimera, some LR tanks, and a Ork Battle Wagon. You are going to question the Battle Wagon because it doesn't fit the rest of the design of the army and really stands out. Is it possible that some orks are working for them? Yes it is (for the time being anyways) but it doesn't mean that is something that really deserves a place on the game table until Apoc time.

Exact same situation here. I'm looking across the table seeing rhinos, exorcists, repressors, and a LR tank? I am going to question it right away because it doesn't fit the rest of the design of the army. I'm not trying to be rude about it but "because they can" isn't really a valid reason much any more. And judging from your reaction it seems I am not alone in that matter. If you received that amount of posts asking the same exact question, I think it would be time to reevaluate the concept.

Now keeping up with multiple forums on this subject is not easy so I understand some trouble there. A project like this is going to get a lot of attention as well so people want to get involved. And people are going to question EVERYTHING you decided on, we all want a great end product but our views on what it should be may be different so we question it.

I am under the impression that isn't what you want through. I getting the vibe that you don't really want our opinions, you just posting it to share your own ideas but anyone that questions it or criticizes it must be mindlessly whining and ranting about things they have no clue about. I gave my concerns over other items in the codex. Sometimes it seemed that because I did not give every single specific example out there that you thought that my point was invalid and gave me a bit of attitude back, but never really getting a real answer for many of my concerns. Over 10 pages of concerns over something and some how we are the problem? That doesn't sound right at all.

Of course I could just be completely wrong here as I do make lots of mistakes and react poorly at times, I am only human(ish). Maybe I am over doing my thoughts on things here, taking things personally, or just saying random things for whatever reason. And if I am wrong then I am greatly sorry but do realize that is the kind of person you are projecting out, take that as you see fit. I hope you the best of luck with your project in whatever path you take it as it does have lots a great concepts. As for me I am locking myself out of this thread to avoid any further flaming (I'm sure this post will be greeted with some severe hatred) and I'll wait until the next one to sink my teeth into again. To the Bat Cave!

Madness
02-08-2010, 07:03 AM
I think what people is mostly looking for (and eventually not finding in sufficient amounts) is an elegance of design, a combination of gentle nudges that brings us from stuff we know about to new stuff you're introducing without straying too far from the comfort zone.

You gave a lot of units combiweapons either by giving them actual combiweapons or by giving them weapons with two firing modes, you created a melta weapon that has no melta, has a long range, fires as ordnance, shot by a leman russ variant in an army with only rhino tanks, you added some neophites to an army who has a very "brave" feel to it, and you gave them sniper rifles, not just sniper rifles but sniper rifles arguably better (much more flexible) than the guns that the emperor's best use... the list goes on.

This all depends on how much you're intrested in "winning over" other people, your army is probably better designed (gamewise) than anything I'd create, but it looks like people have a hard time "digesting" it. And it's something that even professionist designers do, we all remember the "astartes leman russ exterminator incident" don't we?

Sangre
02-08-2010, 07:54 AM
I love the strategic manner in which you would make any Eldar player forfeit a game by nullifying their psychic powers with the "Mace of Banishment." Sky above, have you worked out exactly how bad an idea that is? I know it might have been valid back in the days of 3rd where psychic powers got hit by the hammer pretty damn hard, but this is 5th! Eldar find it difficult to even play for the draw without a farseer on the table. The humblest IG regiment has access to the warp that would make a 3rd Ed SM Librarian shudder! Tone that rule down, or out entirely.

And why the balls would sisters be seen dead in Guard armour? Leman Russ is not a sisters tank, they like to borrow Marine STCs. Maybe something on a Land Raider chassis would be acceptable, but never a Russ.

Melissia
02-08-2010, 10:20 AM
The "Mace of Banishment" is something GW came up with, not me. As I said in the other thread, I'm waiting for people to post ideas on that. I copied those rules straight out of the C:WH Strike Force released by BoLS, which copied their rules out of a White Dwarf release from so long ago.

Nabterayl
02-08-2010, 10:26 AM
Ask the guys on the Bolter and Chainsword. It was actually them who did it.

I could rework Sarissas to allow for assaulting after rapid fire, but that would be powerful.
Re-rolling wounds gives you the greatest marginal boost when you wound on a 4+ (because then you go from a 50% chance to a 75% chance - boost of 25%, which is a greater marginal benefit than you would get for any other to-wound numbers). That means a celestian's best case sarissa scenario under this build would be charging a T3 model, meaning the expected number of kills per sister celestian (you use celestial, but is that sourced? Faith and Fire uses sister celestian) is (2)(2/3)(3/4)(s) = 1s, where s is the chance that a wounded model fails its armor save. A celestian armed with pistol and sword in that scenario would have (3)(2/3)(1/2)(s) = 1s.

So the expected number of kills is the same, unless the celestian is attacking a model that is not exactly T3, and in all cases, the pistol and sword give a higher number of possible kills. The pistol and sword is therefore superior in all cases.

I don't know that I really have a problem with a pistol/sword combo being better in CC than a sarissa per se; that kind of makes sense to me. But from a design standpoint, the sarissa is currently superfluous. If it weren't such an iconic weapon I would suggest that a sarissa simply confers the True Grit USR, which would make it an upgrade for regular sisters but not for celestians, who would use more dedicated CC gear. That doesn't seem like the right visual, though, so if you want to make the sarissa something celestians would actually use, it needs a change.


180 Pts__________BS__FA__SA__RA
Leman Russ Vengeance__4__14__13__10

Type: Vehicle, Tank
Composition:
1 Leman Russ Vengeance
Wargear:
Vengeance Cannon
Hull Heavy Bolter
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers
Special Rules:
Lumbering Behemoth

May exchange Hull-Mounted Heavy Bolter with the following:
Heavy Flamer: Free pts
Multi-Melta: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Sponson Heavy Bolters: 20 pts
Sponson Heavy Flamers: 20 pts
Sponson Multi-Meltas: 30 pts
May purchase one of the following:
Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter: 10 pts
Pintle Mounted Flamer: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Dozer Blade: +10 pts
Extra Armour: +15 pts
Holy Icon: +10 pts
Holy Promethium: +10 pts
Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 pts
Laud Hailers: +15 pts


VENGEANCE CANNON
R72", 28 AP1, Ordinance 1, Small Blast
When rolling the scatter dice, a direct hit applies 2d6 penetration. This is effected by the Ordinance rules-- roll 2d6 twice, and pick the better result.
You know my thoughts on this. They haven't changed.


125 Pts__________BS__FA__SA__RA
Exorcist Tank Hunter____4__13__11__10

Type: Vehicle, Tank
Composition:
1 Exorcist
Wargear:
Exorcist Missile Launcher
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers

May purchase Exorcist Mini-Launcher Sponsons for +35 pts
May purchase one of the following:
Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter: 10 pts
Pintle Mounted Flamer: 10 pts
May purchase the following:
Dozer Blade: +10 pts
Extra Armour: +15 pts
Holy Icon: +10 pts
Holy Promethium: +10 pts
Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 pts
Laud Hailers: +15 pts



Exorcist Missile Launcher
R48", S8 AP1, Heavy 2d3


Exorcist Mini-Launcher Sponsons
Add +2 to the Exorcist's result when rolling for number of shots.
I'm not sure that it's necessary to move to 2d3 given that you're also making the Exorcist cheaper and giving it the option to have a flat +2 to the number of shots. I would suggest changing the name, though. Exorcists are tank destroyers if you feel like imposing mid-century tank classifications on the universe, but I don't think they're thought of as tank destroyers. The universe doesn't seem to think that way. Is there a reason you object to just calling it "Exorcist?"


Penitent Engine Squadron: 100 pts per model
WS 4 // BS - // S 5(10) // T 6 // W 3 // I 3 // A d6+2 // Ld 10 // Sv 2+/6++

Type: Monstrous Creature
Composition:
1-3 Penitent Engines
Wargear:
2xDreadnaught CCWs
Heavy Flamer
Cage of Condemnation
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers
Special Rules:
Holy Rage
Fearless
Rampage


CAGE OF CONDEMNATION
All psykers present within 6" of a Penitent Engine at the beginning of each turn must pass a leadership test or flee.


RAMPAGE
The Penitent Engine can never lose more than one wound at a time-- it is unaffected by instant death, and effects that remove all wounds at once or just remove the model outright simply cause a single wound instead. However, when it loses its wounds, its offensive effectiveness is reduced.

When it loses its first wound, its attacks become D3+1 and its heavy flamer becomes a flamer. When it loses its second wound, its attacks become D3, and lose the DCCW quality, and it loses its flamer. When it loses its final wound, roll D6. On a roll of 5+, it comes back with -1 to its attack roll (minimum one).
I still don't like this version of Rampage. Since you're obviously building this codex with an eye towards Apocalypse compatibility, consider two formations: a tyranid formation with six trygons and two dozen carnifexes clustered within a 10" area, and a sisters formation with six Exorcists and two dozen penitent engines clustered within a 10" area. Both are nailed by a planetary defense laser, a 10" Destroyer weapon. None of the tyranids will survive. Three Exorcists will survive, though only one can be expected to be un-damaged. All of the penitent engines will survive. This seems like a situation that ought to be avoided.


Retributor Squad: 70 Pts base
WS 3 // BS 4 // S 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 1 // Ld 8 // Sv 3+
Retributor Sister Superior
WS 4 // BS 4 // S 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 2(3) // Ld 8 // Sv 3+

Type: Infantry
Composition:
Retributor Sister Superior
4-9 Sisters Retributor
Wargear:
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Frag Grenades
Power Armor
Special Rules:
Adepta Sororitas
Book of Saints

May add up to 5 more Sisters Retributor for +11 pts each
Up to four members may replace bolters with heavy weapons:
Boltcannon: +20 pts
Heavy Bolter: +10 pts
Heavy Bolter w/Blessed Ammunition: +20 pts
Multi-Melta: +15 pts
Portable Exorcist Launcher: +20 pts
Squad leader may choose from the same options as a Battle Sister Veteran Superior
May purchase Krak grenades for +2 pts per model
One member may upgrade to be an Imagifier for 20 Pts


BOLTCANNON
R36", S7 AP4, Heavy 4, Unwieldly
Unwieldly: Takes up two heavy weapon slots, must be operated by two squad members (the second member may not fire that round)


PORTABLE EXORCIST LAUNCHER
R48", S8 AP1, Heavy 1, Anti-Tank Targeting
Anti-Tank Targeting: A to-hit roll of 6 allows the penetration roll to be made against side armor instead of frontal armor.
I still don't like the boltcannon, for the reasons I stated earlier.


As for the Heirophant, this is still not yet in a finished form that I would actually consider putting in right now, but... it uses the Exorcist chassis, only with better armor, and has a front-mounted melta based weapon of some sort.

Points: ~90-140
BS: 4
FA: 13
SA: 12
RA: 10

Weapon: Heirophant Siege Cannon
Current ideas are one of these:
R24", S8 AP1, Heavy 1 Large Blast, applies Melta to anything in the center.
Template, S8 AP1, Heavy 1, draw a line down the center of the template, and apply melta to any who touch that line.

Wargear: Siege Armor
Successful penetration rolls made against the Heirophant Siege Tank's front and side armor are re-rolled. Glances are not re-rolled this way.


Alternatively, it could simply get FA14 and immunity to dangerous terrain but that feels like a knock-off (becuase it is).
Okay, stupid forum moment ... what's that a knock-off of?

I actually don't object to FA14 on Rhino-based vehicles. The Predator is 13/11/10 and can maintain the marine mobility standard of ~50kph off-road. I see no reason why that same vehicle could not be up-armored to, say, 14/12/10, or possibly even 14/13/10 or 14/12/11 It wouldn't be marine-standard fast, but sisters clearly have different mobility requirements. I know that the Exorcist is also an up-armored Predator chassis and it's really slow, which might be a fluff objection. But for the reasons I'm going to get into below, I don't actually think it would be a big deal if the Hierophant was FA14 and, fluff-wise, Baneblade-level slow.

Other comments ...

If you keep the Vengeance as-is, this vehicle doesn't feel like a siege tank to me. A true 40K-style "siege tank" is one that is designed to assault heavily fortified positions and clear a way for infantry that follow behind. Such vehicles always mount powerful short-ranged weapons and feature some special survivability trait that is supposed to allow them to weather the fire of a heavily fortified position so they can employ their main weapon. In the case of the Leman Russ Demolisher, that trait is heavy armor. In the case of the Vindicator, that trait is speed.

The Hierophant has very heavy armor (effectively heavier than AV14). It is presumably about as slow as a Leman Russ, if it uses an Exorcist chassis. That's all great ... but what it doesn't have is a heavy bunker-busting weapon. A Vengeance could do a better job of actually defeating hard emplacements from a much safer distance. By contrast, a Leman Russ Demolisher can do a much better job of defeating hard emplacements than can a standard Leman Russ battle tank (not better than a Vanquisher, but those are supposed to be much rarer than LRDs). I'm having a hard time matching up the fluff of the Hierophant with a siege tank's role, if the Vengeance is kept as-is.

The Hierophant makes more sense to me as an infantry tank designed to provide close-range fire support of an infantry assault. S8 AP1 large blasts certainly fit the close fire support role. Such a vehicle would also gladly sacrifice mobility for armor, and this thing's armor is better than any vehicle in the game except for a monolith (and it's better than a monolith except against weapons that roll 2d6 for armor penetration). As you know, I am personally dying to see the sisters get such an infantry tank, so none of this is a bad thing in my book, unless you object to having the Hierophant have better armor than a monolith, which you might. Not sure the Hierophant would be called a "siege tank" though, for the reasons I've laid out. Also given its current armor, I suggest a mobility restriction. Lumbering Behemoth speed would not be a huge detriment to this thing's intended role, but its armor is so good that I have a hard time swallowing it zipping around at 12" a turn.

EDIT: On the Mace of Banishment, what exactly is the fluff behind that? If it's a mind-scrambling device, perhaps a Runes of Warding effect on wounded models would be appropriate.

I am sympathetic to the "but they're ELLLDDAAARRR" argument, so from a fluff perspective, perhaps a Runes of Warding effect that canceled out with Runes of Witnessing? From a design perspective, I'm not actually sure how easy it would be to hunt down a farseer with a Mace-wielding heroine. The Mace seems to me most powerful against psykers who get in your face and try to mess you up, like certain librarian builds. And frankly, such psykers should get pwned by a Mace-wielding heroine. Sororitas are the anti-psychic army. Their best warriors wielding their best anti-psychic gear should be women no psyker wants to tangle with in hand to hand.

Melissia
02-08-2010, 01:43 PM
I don't know if there even IS fluff behind the mace of banishment. As I said, I just copied it over from the BoLS Witch Hunters Strike Force which got it from White Dwarf. I really want an alternative to be honest, something that keeps Praxedes' badassery while not being so... wargear-dependant?

She defeated a Hive Tyrant by herself, it'd be more epic if she were NOT given a weapon liek the mace of banishment. I'll go look up some of my older ideas later today, but feel free to toss in your own.

Faultie
02-08-2010, 01:46 PM
I don't know if there even IS fluff behind the mace of banishment. As I said, I just copied it over from the BoLS Witch Hunters Strike Force which got it from White Dwarf. I really want an alternative to be honest, something that keeps Praxedes' badassery while not being so... wargear-dependant?

She defeated a Hive Tyrant by herself, it'd be more epic if she were NOT given a weapon liek the mace of banishment. I'll go look up some of my older ideas later today, but feel free to toss in your own.

I think something more along the lines of a Power Stake - Wounds on 2+ vs. Psykers, regardless of Toughness, and Ignores Armor Saves. Perhaps For St. Praxedes, it ignores Invulnerable saves vs. Psykers?

Melissia
02-08-2010, 07:56 PM
Had a conversation with RedsandRoyals on the IGMB about the cult units. Haven't had much time or inclination to do this today, but here are some ideas that resulted out of it.


1: Limit the Cult of the Nightflame to 5 members (rather than 5-10). They were never intended to be large squads, and they feel more fluffy as smaller ones. Instead I plan on reworking them to make the entire squad more customizable, such as giving them more access to upgrades and etc.

2: Replace the Eviscerator with a power lance or power spear (ignores armor saves, adds to strength on the charge), and give access to greatswords to replace their twin CCWs for the entire squad.

3: Repentia stay the way they are, for now. They'd really need playtesting to see if they're balanced as they are, and their rules need to be carefully worded. So I'm leaving them alone unless someone playtests, they feel right right now but what looks good on paper may not be in actual games.

4: The last Cult unit, the Umbral Cloak, I'm just redoing entirely. It's a nice concept, but it kinda overlaps with lots of other units. I'm gonna give the Sisters something different instead.

Nabterayl
02-08-2010, 10:05 PM
2: Replace the Eviscerator with a power lance or power spear (ignores armor saves, adds to strength on the charge), and give access to greatswords to replace their twin CCWs for the entire squad.
I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but the current Blazing Sun build does not do much for me. Since you may be looking at changing them soon, I'll offer my thoughts on the current build:

You make them sound essentially like biker chicks - the thugs of the Sororitas. That does not seem to fit with either their general holy warrior aesthetic or the more professional direction you'd like to take the Sisters. Besides the blurb you give at the beginning, giving the Blazing Sun girls two close combat weapons contributes to the impression of brawler girls on bikes.

To be useful, any bike unit has to be pretty fighty or shooty on a model-per-model basis. You seem to be going for the fighty route, which I like, but right now they feel fighty in the wrong way. Compared to other bike units, they lose comparatively little effectiveness in the second and subsequent rounds of combat. While that gives them a different dynamic than most bike squads, I'd rather see Sororitas bikers as mounted knights than as mounted sabreuses fighting in the crush of melee from motorcycle-back.

So all that to say, rather than multiple attacks, perhaps look into ways to emphasize the charge with a small number of very good attacks? It sounds like you're going in that direction with the lances, which sound like they'll be something akin to re-usable hunting lances. If you wanted to make them better than rough riders on the charge, the following mechanic sprung to mind:


Fearless Charge. Sisters of the Blazing Sun are experts at using the high speeds of their Blazing Sun Bikes in conjunction with their [power lances]. The physical shock of a lance impact delivered from a half-ton motorcycle moving at 70 kph can seriously injure even a power-armored Sororitas. The risk is often considered worth it, however, to impale heretics almost before they realize the Emperor's wrath is at hand. Sisters of the Blazing Sun armed with [power lances] may opt to make a Fearless Charge on any turn they initiate a close combat. Any unit making a Fearless Charge must take a Dangerous Terrain test before blows are struck. Those that survive may re-roll failed rolls to hit for the first turn of close combat.

Nabterayl
02-08-2010, 10:36 PM
1: Limit the Cult of the Nightflame to 5 members (rather than 5-10). They were never intended to be large squads, and they feel more fluffy as smaller ones. Instead I plan on reworking them to make the entire squad more customizable, such as giving them more access to upgrades and etc.
I look forward to seeing how you rework the Nightflame. This is a unit that has never felt quite right to me:

I like the burniness of it; an all-flamer squad is a natural fit with the Sororitas aesthetic.

I dislike the idea of Sororitas sent on suicide missions by their sistren, though - it's one thing to allow Repentia to seek death, but sending sisters to their deaths essentially because they're difficult to live with doesn't seem very Sisterly to me, in both senses of the word.

I also dislike the idea of religious unit that is at once fanatical and stealthy. Those two traits don't seem to mesh very well; they feel instead like an attempt to make a small flamer-armed squad viable on the tabletop.

Can I suggest, instead of Infiltrate, you give this unit Scouts and the ability to fire (but not assault) after running? That still addresses the need to get a small flamer-armed unit quickly into the enemy's face, but it has the flavor more of fanatical pyromaniacs rushing ahead of their sisters rather than spending all night sneaking into position and waiting for the main attack before they reveal themselves.

Melissia
02-09-2010, 10:09 AM
What's the point of giving them Scouts? Dominians can already do the Scouts + lots of flamers... Infiltrate at least feels a bit different.

Nabterayl
02-09-2010, 12:41 PM
The point of giving them Scouts would be to preserve their ability to Outflank and assist in their ability to get close enough to use their flamers before getting shot to bits. Infiltrate is different, I'll grant you, but it doesn't feel different in a good way to me. I have a hard time seeing sisters being sent on suicide missions (except, as I said, in the case of repentia, who volunteer for them), and I have a hard time seeing a flamer-based commando unit.

I'm down with all flamer squads. I'm down with Sororitas commandos. They just don't seem like they should mix.

EDIT: Or at any rate, the idea of pyromaniacal infiltrators jars me. I also don't see why all the special flame troops in this universe need to be psychopathic pyros. Infiltrators that act like commandos and happen to use flamers, that I can buy.

Melissia
02-10-2010, 10:25 AM
I've been rather busy and not into this recently, I'll try and get back to everyone as soon as I can feel rested and, well, actually into responding and editing this.

Madness
02-10-2010, 12:18 PM
/me holds while humming to the music on hold.

DarkLink
02-12-2010, 03:43 PM
The point of giving them Scouts would be to preserve their ability to Outflank and assist in their ability to get close enough to use their flamers before getting shot to bits. Infiltrate is different, I'll grant you, but it doesn't feel different in a good way to me. I have a hard time seeing sisters being sent on suicide missions (except, as I said, in the case of repentia, who volunteer for them), and I have a hard time seeing a flamer-based commando unit.

I'm down with all flamer squads. I'm down with Sororitas commandos. They just don't seem like they should mix.

EDIT: Or at any rate, the idea of pyromaniacal infiltrators jars me. I also don't see why all the special flame troops in this universe need to be psychopathic pyros. Infiltrators that act like commandos and happen to use flamers, that I can buy.

Sisters don't strike me as the sort to go sneaking around behind enemy lines. They'll have forward-deploying units, but I agree that Scouts feels a little more "right" on Sisters.

Melissia
02-19-2010, 06:50 PM
That was the point of making it a "cult" unit. They are not seen as proper Sisters, they are rare and looked down upon.

Nabterayl
02-19-2010, 07:28 PM
I get that, Mel, but I don't see how it fits with the rest of the cult units. The way I see it, you've got repentia, who take to an extreme the Sororitas' self-guilt and desire for absolution and therefore throw themselves into battle at an extraordinary disadvantage; the Blazing Sun, who take to an extreme the Sororitas' zeal and therefore ride bikes, the better to get stuck in; and you've got the Nightflame, who take to an extreme the Sororitas' love of fire and therefore ... skulk about in the shadows.

I know that flamers are only useful in this game at short ranges, and I know that Infiltrate is one way to make sure that flamers get used. But from a fluff perspective, if you told me, "I have here a pyromaniac sister," infiltrating is the last thing I'd expect her to do. I mean, the same pragmatic argument could be made about eviscerators (only useful at short ranges), but it wouldn't feel right to give repentia Infiltrate, right?

Maybe I just need a different fluff angle to make this work in my head.

Melissia
02-19-2010, 09:02 PM
It isn't about skulking around so much as it is laying in ambush wanting to see the surprise in the enemy's faces, and see them up close burning alive.

The fluff can be changed, in order to fit better-- we can alter the load-out and feel of the unit, but I want the unit to stay in general what it is now. A very short-ranged, infiltrating, expensive unit that has assault weapons, pistols, etc for shooting, and close combat weapons and is decent to good in close combat. Yes, I do not oppose having the fluff fit the unit, you know GW does it all the time.

We could, for example, make it so that they aren't pyromaniacs, but instead simply those whom desire to always strike without warning, and so the Nightflame cult are those individuals-- seen as shady and barely trustworthy by the normal Sisterhood-- whom share this view. They take up flamers because they are still Sisters, but they can use other equipment as the need be.

Nabterayl
02-19-2010, 09:50 PM
We could, for example, make it so that they aren't pyromaniacs, but instead simply those whom desire to always strike without warning, and so the Nightflame cult are those individuals-- seen as shady and barely trustworthy by the normal Sisterhood-- whom share this view. They take up flamers because they are still Sisters, but they can use other equipment as the need be.
I like this much better for a number of reasons:

I find the whole pyromaniac thing cliche. It's not just sisters; it seems like every flame-based unit in this universe is a pyromaniac, or viewed as a pyromaniac. Honestly, you don't need to be a pyro to crew a flame tank, or use a flamethrower. In fact, it's probably better if you aren't. In any case, this universe has enough improbably effective maniacal warriors as it is.
You already have two variants on the "zealous sister" archetype, in the Repentia and the Blazing Sun.
I still have a hard time buying the image of overzealous maniacally religious warriors being able to contain themselves enough to effectively infiltrate, and this eliminates that dissonance.
This emphasizes an aspect of the sisters that hasn't yet been taken to an extreme: professionalism. If the Sororitas truly view warfare as worship, which we know they do, and if they study the art of war constantly, which we know they do, and if they draw from the collected insights of numerous tomes of military theory, which we know they do, it stands to reason that some among them would find the classic Sororitas frontal attack to be, well, amateurish. What gives heretics the right to strike back at His daughters? At the same time I'm mindful of Canoness Galatea's response to Celestian Superior Miriya that sometimes a dramatic frontal attack is necessary, even if tactically foolish, to cow the deviant and inspire the faithful - which I imagine is the more prevalent attitude among the Sororitas. I don't think it's that your average sister doesn't know that a frontal attack in livery blaring hymns is militarily silly; it's just that she has other factors she's balancing against tactical effectiveness in order to arrive at the maximum effectiveness of the mission as a whole. I can certainly see a woman with that attitude viewing another who emphasizes striking with maximum surprise as somehow untrustworthy or looked down upon, while still being able to respect the other's prowess as a fighting woman and a soldier.

Thus, a Sororitas commando cult at once (i) fits with the religious and military ethos of the organization, (ii) emphasizes a previously un-emphasized aspect of that ethos, (iii) clashes with the attitude presumably held by most of their sistren, and (iv) does so without making their sistren look like idiots.

Melissia
02-19-2010, 11:18 PM
So hey, that works perfectly. And since I'm giving them power weapons, pistols, flamers, and meltaguns as options, commando actually fits-- a small squad of individuals able to hit hard out of infiltration, even if they are screwed if caught i na bad situation.

Madness
02-20-2010, 11:45 AM
Maybe emphasize the non sororitas status, ecclesiarchy cults? zealot cults? anything that tells us it's not girls from the convents is fine.

Melissia
02-20-2010, 03:21 PM
Such things wouldn't really be that effective on the battlefield as an expensive force, which are the points of these units-- powerful, expensive, and rare.

Aenir
02-21-2010, 12:28 AM
I have a question for you, As the orders militant are not the largest group (to the best of my recollection) are there any orders hospitaller? I made a quick skim through and didnt notice anything, and I was also thinking where are your combat medic type units? These Sisters wear power armor, but dont have the implants and such. Perhaps you could add the Hospitaller as an apothecary type unit upgrade?

Just trying to help :)

Nabterayl
02-21-2010, 12:42 AM
No implants for sisters militant, just extra combat training. But I agree - I thought you actually had included a hospitaller as a heroine retinue upgrade, Mel, and was surprised when I went back to look and couldn't find it.

Melissia
02-21-2010, 10:53 AM
I do intend to actually.

Something like this... any HQ choice in the army list (including High Priestesses) may purchase any one of these, but only one. These are still in alpha phase, if you will, so comment and suggest changes. The pricing especially.

Sister Hospitalier
- [Battle Sister Sister Superior statline]
- Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
25 points, gives Feel No Pain, the character may ignore the first wound that would not have caused instant death.

Sister Dialogous
- [Battle Sister Sister Superior statline]
- Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
20 points, each turn may re-roll one reserve roll, must accept the second roll.

Sister Famulous
- [Battle Sister Sister Superior statline]
- Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
15 points, each turn may re-roll one failed leadership check of an Adepta Sororitas unit within 12", must accept the second roll.

Nabterayl
02-21-2010, 01:08 PM
Yay for more Sororitas! C&C:

Sister Hospitaller
25 points for a sister hospitaller seems low to me. Both painboyz and medics can be purchased for 50 points and ~40 points respectively. Admittedly, an apothecary can be purchased for ~23 points, which is an outlier. All the same, a sister hospitaller seems considerably more capable than a medic to me, and potentially much better than either a painboy or an apothecary, given that she's potentially plugged into a celestian retinue as opposed to a nob squad or command squad. 40 to 45 points (depending on comments below) seems better to me.

FNP and chirugeon functionality seems archaic to me, and difficult to price as well. I'd suggest just going straight to FNP, which seems to me to be the way of the future. Certainly it's what happened to narthecia.

General
A sister superior statline seems wrong to me. These aren't battle sisters, after all, just schola progenium graduates. If graduating from a schola progenium and then graduating from order militant basic and then spending the rest of your life to date as a full-time professional elite soldier isn't enough to get you a sister superior statline (and it apparently isn't), then I don't think any of these extra-order "advisors" deserve a sister superior statline, either. Even if these are advisors that are permanently attached to an order militant convent, they all have other arcane duties to master - I don't think they should have better statlines than the battle sisters who are part of the convent.

Similarly, a bolt pistol and CCW doesn't seem like the right combination of wargear to me. The bolter is surely the basic Adepta Sororitas weapon, so it seems to me that a woman who has received only basic Sororitas training would wield a bolter before a sword-and-pistol combination. I get that oftentimes you'll want these advisors in close combat squads, but it's not that uncommon for the FNP-granter to be less well equipped for CC than the troopers they accompany (in fact that's true of medics, painboyz, and apothecaries).

Can any of these purchase a jump pack? My inclination is to say no (mastering those things to a combat level of proficiency doesn't sound like something you learn as a hobby in your spare time), but have you considered the competitive effect this has on jump pack heroines?

Sister Dialogous
I like the functionality given here. A sister dialogous should represent better intelligence, not better BS.

Sister Famulous
I don't think I like the functionality given here. I'm not aware of a lot of detail given about the Orders Famulous, but they've always struck me as a cross between 40K Bene Gesserit and the "Sisters of Diplomacy" (as opposed to the sisters of battle, if you will). Without trying to be too fluffy about their role in an army (e.g., I wouldn't want to say they only work on Imperial armies, even though I think that fits their fluff), they really don't seem like a Leadership-boosting order to me. Giving them a disruption functionality, due to pulling political strings, exhuming the skeletons in an enemy leader's closet, or simply diplomatic stalling ("Damn to the depths whatever man what thought of parley!"), fits better in my mind. Since the sister dialogous is not a straight astropath port, perhaps this could take the form of forcing the opponent to re-roll one Reserve roll per turn?

Aenir
02-21-2010, 10:56 PM
The Hospitaller I think could be an upgrade character? I dont know if Feel no pain fits, what does it represent? I thought the sisters didnt use drugs and such? Perhaps Ignore the first wound allocated on each model?
Im thinking perhaps Base cost of sisters + 30 for hospitaller but give her the SM Narthecarium? It allows you to ignore Shooting casualties within X inches of the model for purposes of 25% morale if killed

Necrosis
02-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Hospitaller should give feel no pain. I mean the guardsmen carrying a medi-pack which also gives feel no pain. Yet they they shouldn't ignore the first wound that doesn't causes instant death. That being said the upgrade should cost about 30 points (not including the base cost). The hospitaller should have also have a las pistol and a surgical blade (or something like that) that always wounds on a 4+. This would determine the base cost.

I agree with much of what Nabterayl has said.

Nabterayl
02-22-2010, 01:32 AM
Definitely agree that the hospitaller should give FNP, as that is clearly the 5e way to represent battlefield medics. Ignoring the first non-ID wound is what sisters hospitaller used to do, which is why I think the "new" sister hospitaller should not do both. To give a parallel, space marine narthecia used to allow a model to ignore the first non-ID wound (and in some of the older space marine codices, they still do), but when the space marine codex was updated for 5th edition, the narthecium was changed to simply confer FNP.

Madness
02-22-2010, 06:45 AM
Agreed with the previous comments, but I'd give them guardsmen statline, alongside with a lighter armor, it's not warrior sisters after all, they are scholars/medics.

Melissia
02-22-2010, 11:06 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be given power armor. This is a Sisters force, not an Inquisition Freakshow. Similarly, when the Guard purchases carapace on their Company Command Squad, that purchase also effects their retinue (astropaths, fleet officers, and so on) whom are similarly not part of the Guard. Furthermore, while you could argue for a basic Battle Sister statline-- the non-militant Sisters still graduate from the Schola Progenium, and so would have the same stats as the common Battle Sisters-- a Guard statline would not be representative of the training they would receive before they ever leave the Schola.

And ugh, I'm hating trying to reformat everything in word. Blarghl on this forum not having a table function, I would gladly post things here in a PM to you Madness, the entire codex for that matter, if it did.

Madness
02-22-2010, 11:27 AM
My reasoning was that power armor is a complex tech (for imperium standards) that requires some training, also the current models clearly are wearing something else.

I get your concerns about their training, and I agree they aren't whiteshield like units, but the average guardsman is an actual trained soldier, stormtroopers (also from the schola) are guys who devote their training time to military excercise, while a non combatant sister surey has to waste time in studying.

You don't want to mix stuff up? Reasonable enough, but that means no sisters from other orders, which is a shame. I'd pick one, either you have only order militant sisters or you accept that non-militant sisters aren't as strong.

You could also consider it as a matter of "what makes a sister superior so good if any famulous sister can match her skill AND provide much more".

Btw, don't worry about formatting, I'll have to redo it in InDesign anyway.

Melissia
02-22-2010, 11:58 AM
Then change it to a common Battle Sister rather than one of a Sister Superior. Stormtroopers and Battle Sisters and Commissars all have roughly the same statline (Commissars having trained in close combat more than the other two of course). While it may be true that the Sisters Hospitalier, Famulous, Dialogous, and other unnamed sections (For those are not the entirity of the non-militant Sisterhood) would not train as much as a Stormtrooper or Sister, any who would accompany a Canoness into battle owuld tend to be quite a capable shot compared to most.

Nabterayl
02-22-2010, 02:02 PM
Then change it to a common Battle Sister rather than one of a Sister Superior. Stormtroopers and Battle Sisters and Commissars all have roughly the same statline (Commissars having trained in close combat more than the other two of course). While it may be true that the Sisters Hospitalier, Famulous, Dialogous, and other unnamed sections (For those are not the entirity of the non-militant Sisterhood) would not train as much as a Stormtrooper or Sister, any who would accompany a Canoness into battle owuld tend to be quite a capable shot compared to most.
I don't really have a problem with BS4 non-militant sisters for the sake of ease of play, but I do think it's worth acknowledging that it would mostly be for convenience's sake. It's pretty clear that in tabletop terms being a full-time professional soldier only gets you BS3. Non-militant sisters, for all that they may have graduated from a schola years (in some cases decades) ago, aren't even full-time professional soldiers.

As for power armor, I think Madness makes a good fluff point, but I think I'd be okay with non-militant sisters wearing power armor - again, for the sake of ease of play. Would carapace armor make more sense? Yeah, probably. I don't think power armor is hard to use - the whole point of power armor is that it's easy to use - but it's sufficiently rare and rarified that I don't think most sisters would just pull a suit from the convent morgue to give to an attache. Still, mixed armor saves are a pain, and I don't think it's that big a deal to exaggerate certain things for the sake of tabletop effectiveness (after all, we're exaggerating Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith for tabletop effectiveness, which in my opinion are much bigger deals).

Melissia
02-22-2010, 02:42 PM
Going back a page or two, this is reworked fluff for the Leman Russ Vengeance. A first draft if you will.



The Exorcist is a beloved and powerful icon of the Sisterhood, and yet it is difficult to maintain and prone to glitches-- the Machine Cult claims that this is because it they collectively have proud and whimsical machine spirits. But the Sororitas developed out of necessity an alternative.

In the Siege of Altraen VII in late M.39, two Sisters and a Priestess of the Machine mounted an Exorcist Missile Launcher upon a Leman Russ Chassis after their Exorcist was downed by a corrupted Vanquisher. The trio held the pass with this modified vehicle until reinforcements finally arrived two days later, and when they were relieved the Priestes found herself inspired. Using the secret chymistry of the Imperial Cult along with the blessed knowledge of the Machine Cult, she devised a method to adapt the Exorcist Missiles into torpedo-like shells that could be fired from a Leman Russ, and the Ecclesiarchy entered secret deals with manufactoriums to obtain more of the chassis.

The Machine Cult was infuriated and even the Munitorum was somewhat incensed; political battles continue despite two thousand years having passed since that fateful day on Altraen VII. Many feared that the Ecclesiarchy would use these to restart the ill-fated Frateris Templars of old. The debate runs strong and bitter on both sides, but the Sisterhood continues to use these blessed machines for the cause of the Emperor and his blessed Imperium. At the very least, they have taken all of the modified Leman Russ platforms and named them Vengeance. Their most senior members worked out secret deals with the Machine Cult and the Ecclesiarchy to have sole rights to this vehicle until the debate has ended-- which likely will amount to rights forever, as the two organizations almost never see eye to eye.

Nabterayl
02-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I like that fluff a lot better, Mel (though I think you have a typo or two - Priestes?). Can I suggest that perhaps the original prototype was using single shots from the Exorcist launcher, though? After all, a fully loaded stock Exorcist only holds 48 missiles - roughly 14 salvos, give or take - and no secondary weapons to speak of. Given the dire straits the crew found itself in (and as loading the improvised vehicle was probably rather difficult), perhaps they were reduced to firing single shots to conserve ammunition? That could serve as additional inspiration for the final production-model Vengeance, with its larger missile.

Another suggestion, if you don't mind - what sort of world was Altraen VII? One of the things that makes marine tech-deviance plausible is that all chapters have their own manufacturing capabilities, so the Mechanicus' ability to stonewall is reduced. I think it's fairly clear that marines have better in-house production capabilities than just about anybody else, including the Ecclesiarchy ... but consider this:

If Altraen VII was a forge world, or had significant manufacturing capabilities, that might explain how the Sororitas got started with Vengeance production despite the Mechanicus' outrage. If the world was indebted to the sisters for saving it, that could provide a plausible initial source of Vengeance hulls for the Sororitas despite the lack of official sanction from Mars.

Melissia
02-22-2010, 03:55 PM
Very good points, all of them (And yes, as I said, it's a rough draft, and I do mean rough-- typoes, are there). When I send the info to Madness (probably via PM) I'll include those changes.

Madness
02-24-2010, 10:38 AM
Is there any up-to-date list of units anywhere?

Melissia
02-24-2010, 11:52 AM
No, there isn't. I just can't bring myself to do the work.

But... ALL of the information about it are in these two threads (this one and the IGMB). I just need to set aside time and gather it up, honestly this is not very high priority for me. I don't expect anyone to use it, I personally will never use it, I don't plan on playtesting, I just... am doing it. For the sake of doing it. And so I'm taking my time.

Melissia
04-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Potential re-write for Sarissas, to make them a more viable alternative to BP+CCW:



Sarissas
Vicious combat blades attatched to the end of a bolter. Models with Sarissas count as Rending when charging.


I say potential, as it's just a thought I had for changing it from just re-rolling.

Melissia
04-28-2010, 11:48 PM
I am currently in the process of consolidating all information for this codex into an easy to read format in this thread. (click me) (http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Ally&thread=10614)

The 5EC:AS thread has well ovr 400 posts in it, and it was getting cluttered and hard to find information. This is also easier than making a PDF, as well.

Melissia
04-29-2010, 12:31 AM
My eyes are now sore as hell, but the move is completed. I may have lost some things in the transfer, so if you see something that seems outdated, please tell me. Night.

Melissia
05-01-2010, 11:12 AM
Fast Attack
Conflagrator Light Tank
A modification to the Immolator chassis thinly disguised as a new STC, the Conflagrator Light Tank has caused ripples in the already cold relations between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus; the latter is still officially testing the new design. One of the first tests of the capabilities of the Priestesses of the Machine, this tank is slowly becoming more and more common amongst Sisters for its powerful infantry support capabilities and the ability to easily keep up with any infantry advance, whether mechanized or on foot.

<table border="1"><tr><td>95 Points</td><td>BS</td><td>Front Armor</td><td>Side Armor</td><td>Rear Armor</td></tr><tr><td>Conflagrator Light Tank</td><td>4</td><td>12</td><td>11</td><td>10</td></tr></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td>Type</td><td>Composition</td><td>Wargear</td><td>Special Rules</td></tr><tr><td>Tank</td><td>1-3 Conflagrator Light Tanks</td><td>Turret Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters
Hull Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlights</td><td>Blitz Strike
Fast</td></table>
Cost is 95 per tank.
May exchange Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter for:
Inferno Cannon for: +30 pts
Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas: +30 Pts
May exchange Hull Heavy Bolter for:
Hull Heavy Flamer: Free
Hull Multi-Melta: +15 pts
May purchase sponsons:
Heavy Bolters: +10 pts
Heavy Flamers: +10 pts
Multi-Meltas: +30 pts
May purchase Extra Armor for +15 pts
May purchase Laud Hailers for +10 pts



I dropped the Blitz Strike thing entirely and lowered the points cost of it by ten. Moving six inches per turn and firing its weapons as if stationary (For being a fast tank) would still allow for it to be an infantry support tank; this also allowed me to add a TLMM turret option without it becoming cheesy.

In fact, now what I'm contemplating most is whether or not I should keep the sponson and hull MMS...

Necrosis
05-01-2010, 11:43 AM
Name seems familiar. What does Blitz Strike do? I can't seem to find that rule.

Melissia
05-01-2010, 11:51 AM
It should if you've read the original thread; it's been in my 5EC:AS thread since Oct. 2009.


Blitz Strike had three variations over the months, back when it was called hte Conflagrator Blitz Tank.

1: May fire all weapons even if it has moved up to 12" that turn. Going flat out still prevents weapons from firing.
2: Heavy Flamers count as Defensive Weapons to the Conflagrator
3: The Hull-Mounted weapon counts as a Defensive Weapon.

None of them felt satisfactory to me, reaching the balance between awesome and, well, balance.

Necrosis
05-01-2010, 11:54 AM
Just a quick question:
"May exchange Hull Heavy Bolter for:
* Hull Heavy Bolter: Free"

whats the point of exchanging the same upgrade for the same upgrade?

Melissia
05-01-2010, 12:03 PM
My bad, that's a typo. Intended to be heavy flamer.

Nabterayl
05-01-2010, 06:15 PM
The current version of Blitz Strike, as I write this, states that the hull-mounted weapon counts as a Defensive Weapon. That means you could have a Conflagrator that can move up to 12" and fire one twin-linked and one regular multi-melta. Comparing that to other speedy, tracked Imperial tank destroyers, such as the Predator Annihilator and the Devil Dog, the Conflagrator seems to have significantly better fire-on-the-move ability. I'll be the first to admit that the Annihilator's rules don't match its fluff, but is this intended?

I ask because your fluff blurb describes this as a support tank, but right now it seems more like a cruiser tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_tank). Admittedly, cruiser tanks are very Imperial in flavor, but it doesn't seem like quite what you're going for.

If this is unintended, I suggest either of the following as fixes:
Keep Blitz Strike as it is, but downgrade the hull-mounted option to a regular meltagun.
Keep the hull-mounted option as a multi-melta, and modify Blitz Strike so that all heavy flamers and heavy bolters count as Defensive Weapons.
The first prevents the Conflagrator from out-hunting the Annihilator and the Devil Dog by limiting the effective range of its awesome anti-tank firepower. The second (which I tentatively prefer) prevents the Conflagrator from out-hunting the Annihilator and the Devil Dog by applying its extra mobility to anti-infantry firepower only.

Melissia
05-01-2010, 06:23 PM
I removed Blitz Strike entirely in the latest iteration, Nab.

What I want is a tank that can move 6" and fire all its weapons in support of infantry-- not a traditional infantry support tank, perhaps. Fast by itself is enough for this.

Melissia
05-01-2010, 06:27 PM
The most recent iteration of the Conflagrator.


Fast Attack
Conflagrator Light Tank
A modification to the Immolator chassis thinly disguised as a new STC, the Conflagrator Light Tank has caused ripples in the already cold relations between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus; the latter is still officially testing the new design. One of the first tests of the capabilities of the Priestesses of the Machine, this tank is slowly becoming more and more common amongst Sisters for its powerful infantry support capabilities and the ability to easily keep up with any infantry advance, whether mechanized or on foot.

<table border="1"><tr><td>110 Points</td><td>BS</td><td>Front Armor</td><td>Side Armor</td><td>Rear Armor</td></tr><tr><td>Conflagrator Light Tank</td><td>4</td><td>12</td><td>11</td><td>10</td></tr></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td>Type</td><td>Composition</td><td>Wargear</td><td>Special Rules</td></tr><tr><td>Tank</td><td>1-3 Conflagrator Light Tanks</td><td>Turret Boltcannon
Hull Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlights</td><td>Fast</td></table>
Cost is 110 per tank.
May exchange Turret Boltcannon for:
Inferno Cannon for: +15 pts
Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas: +10 Pts
May exchange Hull Heavy Bolter for:
Hull Heavy Flamer: Free
Hull Multi-Melta: +15 pts
May purchase sponsons:
Heavy Bolters: +10 pts
Heavy Flamers: +10 pts
Multi-Meltas: +30 pts
May purchase Extra Armor for +15 pts
May purchase Pintle-Mounted Flamer for +10 pts
May purchase Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter for +10 pts

Nabterayl
05-01-2010, 07:47 PM
I removed Blitz Strike entirely in the latest iteration, Nab.

<table border="1"><tr><td>110 Points</td><td>BS</td><td>Front Armor</td><td>Side Armor</td><td>Rear Armor</td></tr><tr><td>Conflagrator Light Tank</td><td>4</td><td>12</td><td>11</td><td>10</td></tr></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td>Type</td><td>Composition</td><td>Wargear</td><td>Special Rules</td></tr><tr><td>Tank</td><td>1-3 Conflagrator Light Tanks</td><td>Turret Boltcannon
Hull Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlights</td><td>Blitz Strike
Fast</td></table>
Uh, is its presence in the above a typo, then?

Melissia
05-01-2010, 07:49 PM
Yes.

Melissia
05-03-2010, 10:02 AM
Posted a new special character idea. Will translate it onto this forum's table in a few minutes, but it's the last post in the new thread.

Before I go, though, here's her special rules:


Assault Tactics
Celestian Squads may be taken as Troops Choices in an army led by Palatine Atraeas.


Chaosbane and Warpbane
A pair of one-handed, Master-crafted power axes which each add +1 to strength, for a total of +2.

Against servants of Chaos (Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Lost and the Damned) they always strike first.


We Shall Emerge Victorious!
Each casualty Palatine Atraeas makes in close combat counts as two for the purposes of determining who won the combat.

Points costing is 175, but I'm unsure if that's overpriced or underpriced. She kinda seems overpriced for a T3 human without eternal warrior, but I'm worried her abilities might be too powerful.

Necrosis
05-03-2010, 01:44 PM
I suggest to changing it to each wound instead of each casualty. I also can't find her stats. I must be blind.

Melissia
05-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Look in the new thread, not the old.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=Ally&thread=10614&post=217806

Necrosis
05-03-2010, 02:18 PM
Let's compare her to a few other characters.

First lets check out the Normal HQ for the Chaos Space Marine Codex:
We have a naked Daermon Prince first:
Daemon Prince is 110 points, your character is 175 points. Differene of 65 points.
Let assume you charged. You get 5 attacks at S6. About 2.5 hits so to be nice lets round it up to 3 and then 1.5 wounds. To be nice lets round it up to 2. Now the daemon prince has a 5+ invu save, so we will say he makes one of those saves (since I did round up a lot for the siser). You have done about 1 wound. Daemon prince attacks back, with 4 attacks at S6 hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. He will get about 2.5 hits and 2 wounds. You will pass one invu save and fail the other causing instant death: Daemon Prince wins.

Let compare her to space marine captain with a relic blade and storm shield:
Space Marine captain is 145 points meaning he is 30 points cheaper.
Let's say you charged again. So you both strike at the same time. You get 5 attacks at S6, hitting on 4+. You get 2.5 hits and about 2 wounds and if were nice will say you do one wound to him. He makes his attacks back, 2 hits and 2 wounds. You fail one and you die.

Guard have the look out... argh rule to help them out. You should have something similar.

Melissia
05-03-2010, 02:30 PM
That's kinda why I was worrying it would be too expensive... still, while in her retinue, she doesn't count as an independent character until the last member dies, so she can't be specifically targeted until her five celestians die.

But you have to pay extra for the celestians, so...

Let's compare her to the Adepta Sororitas Heroine, the basic default HQ of the Sisters in this codex.

With a Sanctified Sword, she'd have roughly the same statline, except without furious charge, for 105 points. So that means that Atraea is paying 70 points for the following:

-- Furious Charge (also applies to her Retinue)
-- Striking first against certain enemies
-- Taking Celestians as troops
-- Each wound caused by Atraea counts as two for the purpose of determining who won the combat

(yes, I took the advice to change it to each wound)


How much should these abilities be worth?

Necrosis
05-03-2010, 04:20 PM
I got no idea but making special characters are hard. I try to compare them to other special characters:
So lets compare her to Pedro Kantor: Both cost the same amount of points.
Both have special weapons.
You have Furious Charge, Pedro makes everyone stubborn
You strike first vs certain enemies, He has an orbital bombardment (alright I know this isn't a good comparsion here)
You can take Celestians as troops, Pedro makes sternguard as scoring.
Each wound counts as two, Pedro gives everyone within 12 of him +1 attack.
Pedro has a Higher WS, S, T and I.
So lets see how they do in a fight.
So lets say you charge, you get 5 attacks at S6. Hittin on 4 and wouding on 2+. So about 2.5 hits and 2 wounds one which he will fail to save. Now Pedro once again attacks with his power fist which will result in your death. In all she should be a bit better.

Now lets compare her to Khan captain of the white scars 3rd company who is cheaper then your character(without his cool bike).
You have Furious Charge, he also has furious charge and gets hit and run
You have Striking first against certain enemies, He can cause instant death on 6.
You can take Celestians as troops, all dedicated transport can outflank.
Each wound caused by Atraea counts as two for the purpose of determining who won the combat and He can take a super awesome bike which makes space marine bikes as troops.

He also has the same stats as Pedro so he beats you there to.

So lets comapre the two in a fight (without his cool bike).
So lets say you charge, you get 5 attacks at S6. Hittin on 4 and wouding on 2+. So about 2.5 hits and 2 wounds one which he will fail to save. He gets 4 attacks back at S4. About 2.5 will hit and about 2 will wound. Which results in you taking a wound. So your character won combat by 1. So he will probably pass his ld check.

Now 2nd round of combat. He strikes first and does another wound to you. This time you get 4 attacks at S5. Hitting on 4 and wounding on 3+. So about 2 hits an 1.5 wounds and will say he fails a save. Once again he needs to make a check which he will pas.

3rd round of combat he will attack and kill you before you manage to get to attack back.

Result: You need to go down in points or gain a new ability.

Melissia
05-03-2010, 04:41 PM
What points level do you reccomend? I've had anything from 125 to 185 proposed to me...

Necrosis
05-03-2010, 04:46 PM
I wouldn't change her points. I would instead both her blades are blessed and thus she gets to reroll all misses.

Melissia
05-03-2010, 05:40 PM
They're already master-crafted.

Necrosis
05-03-2010, 05:51 PM
Just say because both blades are mastercrafted you get to reroll all misses due to them being well balance with each others or something.

Nabterayl
05-04-2010, 02:06 AM
Yeah, there's a big difference between being able to re-roll one miss and being able to re-roll all five. Remember that two master-crafted power weapons only ever affords you one re-roll, as you can only benefit from the master-crafting of the one you are "using" (or, in the alternative, the two axes count as a single weapon, so you are only "using" one special CCW, in which case you have a single master-crafted SCCW to begin with, and thus you only get one re-roll). If you want to have more than one re-roll you need to specify something beyond "master-crafted."

Melissia
05-04-2010, 11:27 AM
And I didn't create such a thing, because they aren't beyond master-crafted...

Necrosis
05-04-2010, 11:40 AM
Yeah, there's a big difference between being able to re-roll one miss and being able to re-roll all five. Remember that two master-crafted power weapons only ever affords you one re-roll, as you can only benefit from the master-crafting of the one you are "using" (or, in the alternative, the two axes count as a single weapon, so you are only "using" one special CCW, in which case you have a single master-crafted SCCW to begin with, and thus you only get one re-roll). If you want to have more than one re-roll you need to specify something beyond "master-crafted."

I was saying she should have a special rule that makes her re-roll all misses cause she is to expensive for her point cost. My fault for wording it badly.

Melissia
05-04-2010, 12:03 PM
I decided to just reduce the cost. I'm pricing her at 145-155, leaning towards the former.

Melissia
05-05-2010, 12:39 AM
I'm nearly finished with the codex. Aside from SCs and supplement rules, I need to work on the following units:

Confessor (Attachable semi-HQ unit, better than a priest,, but not an IC)
Arco-Flagellant Squad (either buff their statline or lower their price)
Faithful Citizen Mob (large squads, weak, highly motivated, must charge)
Zealots Squad (highly motivated, WS4, Fleet, FNP, must charge)
Heirophant (quite a few deas on this one's cannon and balance)



The following units are complete, but need adjustment or reworking:

Canoness Praxedes Special Character (need to redo her special rules to fit in to fifth edition)
Cult of the Nightflame (I still need to produce a single post incorporating the changes I want to make)
Cult of the Blazing Sun (equipment adjustment, not rules)
Penitent Engine Squadron (Rampage and statline adjustments to simplify but maintain durability)

Sitnam
05-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Idk if I already made this suggestion, but I figure a pintle mounted meltagun would be a reasonable upgrade to the Repressors flamer.

I would buff the statline of arcoflaggelents, but they should balance out with Sisters Repentia to make them both desirable in certain situations.

I'm not sure what the fluff is for Hierophants, but I do recall they appear in the DH codex as some type of anti-deamon priest. Perhaps make them a 0-1 upgrade for the High Priest with anti-daemon powers? Just a thought, not entirely sure on what they are.

Melissia
05-08-2010, 09:24 PM
1: It's a pintle heavy flamer, not just flamer. I'm not touching the Repressor, it's an IA vehicle.

2: I'll work them out.

3: Heirophant is a rank of priest (a rather high rank) in the Ecclesiarchy.

What I refer to, however, is the Heirophant Siege Tank.

Sitnam
05-09-2010, 02:40 AM
Oh, I thought you meant the priest lol. I dont see no reason to be hesitant to touch the Repressor, its not like you didnt upgrade Rhinos/Immolaters.

Melissia
05-09-2010, 09:11 AM
I didn't, actually, not Rhinos anyway. Rhinos are just changed to be standard. Immolators I redid so that they aren't just overly expensive razorbacks.

Melissia
05-15-2010, 06:14 PM
Updated the "Units under discussion" post (Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion) with the current rules for Faithful Citizens, Zealots, Sisters of the Nightflame, and the proposed Militia Armored Van (low armor cheap transport for the Frateris Militia units).

Updated Blazing Sun Sisters-- removed Eviscerators, added Power Spears as options instead. Added Power Spears as options to the following units: Adepta Sororitas Heroine, Angelis Imperial, Celestian Squad, Celestian Superior, Veteran Superior (Battle Sisters and Novitiates), Blazing Sun Superior, Nightflame Veterans.

Added Power Spears. Power Spears are two-handed power weapons which add +! to strength. When charging, the user can choose to give up their extra attack gained from charging and instead strike at initiative 10. This does not override Hand of the Emperor.

Nabterayl
05-16-2010, 04:17 AM
I like the two Faithful Citizen Mob, and I definitely like the idea of having more than one unit to represent the FM. A couple of questions/comments:

1. For the Faithful Citizen Mob, did you mean to assign Stubborn to the shooty mob and Fearless to the choppy mob? From a powergaming standpoint that seems backwards (i.e., you generally want to be Fearless when getting shot, but merely Stubborn in assault), but I can't tell if you did it deliberately or not.

2. The Zealots seem a little overdone to me. Compare an assaulting zealot - WS4 S4 I4 A4 - to an assaulting battle sister - WS3 S3 I4 A2. That seems like too large a disparity to me, especially since they have equal defenses and the zealots are less likely to run away. Yes, a zealot charge should be scary, but as it stands right now, ten battle sisters would have a tough time beating ten zealots in CQB, which feels wrong to me. A couple particular observations/suggestions:
I'm not sure I like the WS4. Presumably you mean this to represent zealotry rather than actual CQB skill, but it still feels dodgy to me (I am of the opinion, which perhaps you are not, that WS is universally used to denote actual skill, even in the case of orks and tyranids). Furious Charge, extra base Attacks, or a special rule that gives +2A on the charge instead of +1A feel more "zealot charge" to me.
You might consider making the body armor optional for both the Faithful Citizen Mob (optional 6+) and Zealots (optional 5+). I would think that not all zealots are as well equipped as you represent them, and right now, a zealot effectively has power armor in assault - not sure that should come for free. Consider the same for the frag grenades.
What is the point of giving Zealots both Fearless and Ld10, as opposed to, say, Fearless and Ld7? Are there instances in which you feel a high Leadership would be appropriate that Fearless does not cover? I can think of at least one in which it feels inappropriate: if a farseer engages in a Mind War with a zealot, right now the zealot is 6.5% more likely to escape unscathed than is a full battle sister, even taking into account the Shield of Faith. Granted Mind War is highly unlikely to ever be used on a lowly Ld8 battle sister, but still, doesn't that seem ... wrong?

Melissia
05-16-2010, 08:49 AM
1: It was deliberate. Both from a fluff standpoint AND from a balance standpoint. I don't want the unit being too powerful... which kinda brings me to the second set of points.

I kinda did worry Zealots were too powerful, but I did want them to be more effective than faithful citizens. Zealots could be a squad of retired guardsmen, or a squad of penitent gangers, and so on, or perhaps priest initiates trying to become worthy of being full priests.

2.1: Hrm. Perhpas you're right in that regard. If I were to drop it to WS3, would they need a price reduciton:

2.2: Well, they currently have flak armor and FNP. That's not exactly power armor, and flak armor isn't exactly uncommon.

2.3: Can you find a unit where fearless isn't LD10? I thought that all fearless units were supposed to be LD10... but I suppose you have a point. The sergeant or priest could keep the high LD, but the common zealot could have a lower one.

Melissia
05-16-2010, 12:45 PM
Someone in the Spoony Experiment's 40k thread suggested giving Nightflame Veterans artificer armor. What do y'all think, should that be done, and if it should, should it increase their price? Should it be an upgrade?

Melissia
05-16-2010, 04:13 PM
Faithful Citizens now provide 1 Faith Point, but cannot use Acts of Faith.

Zealots can use Acts of Faith and provide 1 Faith Point as well,, but I'm reducing their WS to 3. Adjusted Zealot cost to match, they are now 85 points to start out with, and 7 points for each Zealot after that.

Nightflame Veterans now have a 5++ invulnerable save. Added Immolators and Rhinos to their list of transports, added a note that they cannot infiltrate with a transport.

The Militia Armored Van has been renamed to Militia Armored Transport (gives less reason to ***** about the semantics), and is reduced in cost by five points and armor to 10/10/10 to better match the fluff of an uparmored civilian transport.

Nabterayl
05-16-2010, 06:17 PM
2.2: Well, they currently have flak armor and FNP. That's not exactly power armor, and flak armor isn't exactly uncommon.
Right, but the odds of failing a 5+ armor save and FNP are 1/3, right? Which in assault makes them identical. They're less resilient at shooting, granted, in that most shooting attacks will give them FNP only, and some shooting attacks will give them no save at all. I'll definitely concede that point.

Melissia
05-16-2010, 07:36 PM
But I did reduce them to WS3. Furious Charge alone should do the trick of representing zealous warriors charging into battle.

Irdion
05-17-2010, 03:45 AM
A much longer C&C coming as I review, but the first thing on page 15 of this thread that caught my ire I'm going to point out.

Why would charging with a spear merit being able to strike at Initiative 10? A spear is primarily a defensive weapon, designed to receive a charge or keep an opponent at range. A much better rule would make units that have power spears count as if equipped with defensive grenades.

Nabterayl
05-17-2010, 04:22 AM
That's oversimplifying a bit in my opinion. Spears are only "defensive weapons" in that they're designed to allow the user to kill whom he wishes with minimum danger to himself, which is what all weapons are designed to do (and, like all weapons, they're optimized to perform that task within a specific set of situations). Spear-equipped warriors have often been a culture's primary means of getting in an opponent's face and doing horrible things to him until he gives up.

The image being appealed to is that of a cavalryman spearing an opponent on foot with his lance from beyond the victim's reach. Now, you know and I know, and I imagine Mel knows, that lances afford no such benefit in virtually all real-world situations, but there's got to be room in 40K for some things that work according to their stereotypes. After all, that image is clearly what lies behind the hunting lance rules.

That said, I have to agree that I10 is a bit much, Mel, unless power spears are something fancier than sticks with power field generators. I mean, in terms of reach, they aren't materially different than a hunting lance, right?

Irdion
05-17-2010, 06:34 AM
True, I am oversimplifying, but most historians will tell you that charging someone with a spear is a very silly idea from a tactical standpoint - mainly as you give up your primary advantage of favorable positioning. That's why the knife (later sword), axe, and hammer were militarized, strictly to enable the assault without carrying around the cumbersome/unwieldy spear. The other advantage to a spear is that it is cheap and easily produced with a minimum of technological advancement and overall costs when compared to entirely metallic weapons.

Irdion
05-17-2010, 06:34 AM
REVIEW TIME!

I'm going to point out a number of problems or oddities I see in the course of reviewing this codex, namely because unlike most fandexes, I actually enjoy this one - a novel concept for me. It seems rather well done, albeit a bit bloated, but somewhat odd on many points. I'll be pointing out my queries/corrections/useless complaints in the same order as they appear on the Imperial Guard message board.

Special Rules:

Why would Adepta Sororitas grant Preferred Enemy: Psyker? Preferred Enemy is a rule to explain fighting exclusively against this type of foe, and knowing it better than anything else. The Armageddon Steel Legion has Preferred Enemy: Orks because their planet has been mired in war against Ork hordes, and they know Orks exceedingly well. Rogue Psykers are not common enough opponents, nor are they similar enough combatants, to merit Preferred Enemy against; simply because surviving such an encounter is rather difficult. That is what specialized anti-Psyker wargear is for. Just about the only models that would make sense to have Preferred Enemy: Psyker is a Witchunter Inquisitor, or an Adepta Sororitas special character with extensive Psyker fighting experience.

Book of Saints seems to be a holdover to the Book of Saint Lucius, but my query comes into the form of why this rule is necessary. For morale and pinning tests, you already use your unmodified leadership, barring a rather small number of effects that produce a -1. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is an Imperial Guard Psyker Battle Squad's Weaken Resolve, and that is covered by the Shield of Faith. I would highly reconsider this rule, especially as in the periods where it is not useless, it is covered by another rule. Likewise, being Schola Progenium trained, it is hard to call them braver than Imperial Stormtroopers, and Stormtroopers retreat in the face of unfavorable odds.

Wargear:

Nothing much, just a pet peeve with the term Accurized Bolter. Why not call it a Scoped Bolter? Accurized just seems odd, and I'm relatively sure it isn't an actual word. Likewise, you'll see me bring this up a lot. Choose either a shorter range Sniper rifle, or a longer ranged version of the basic weapon. Don't mix weapon types, it isn't the way 40k weapons are built. They have a single, simple statline outside of very exceptional cases.

Units:

Heroine:

-Blessed Blade and Sanctified Sword are redundant. Just use the Blessed Weapon as a masterwork Relic Blade (2-H, +2 S), as a masterwork "Powerfist" knock off that strikes in Initiative order is a bit much for the Blessed Blade version.

-Masterwork Bolt Pistols seem very expensive, especially as the Heroine already has a normal Bolt Pistol as part of her Wargear. All it is in close combat is a masterwork close combat weapon that grants +1 attack, and two bolt pistol shots in the shooting phase. Seems a very expensive set for very little gain.

Angelis Imperial:

-This is a role which needed to exist, I give you kudos for that. That said, problems:

-40 points for 2 Faith points? I'd spam these in a heartbeat for that ability alone, the Rosarius and Blessed Weapon access be damned. I'd seriously consider dropping it down one faith point, and giving them the ability to take blessed weapons. It would discourage FP spam, and make them more versatile in development (especially given the lower WS and Attacks compared to the Heroine)

Machine Priestess:

-Huh? Why? Not only is there an established feud between the Ecclesiarchy and the Machine Cult, but there has been great suspicion placed on the Scions of Mars for heresy of the worst sort. I wish this was the least of the problems.

-2+ save? That should be a purchased upgrade, as it makes little sense why an Enginseer would be worse armored than a Sister trained by the Mechanicus.

-A Faith point? Really? The mysteries of the Machine Cult are based in religious adherence to the Machine Spirit, not emperor worship. You can;t double dip in your faith.

-They really shouldn't have either the Adepta Sororitas rule or Divine Charisma. Different Faiths remember?

-This unit shouldn't exist, in any fluff backing remotely related to 40k.

High Priest & Priest:

-High Priests shouldn't have access to the Mantle and Cloak. That is Sororita wargear.

-Priests have access to a lot of very rare and powerful equipment, while leading a band of rabble rousers. Seems a bit odd. That said, as Priests they should have a Rosarius, as it is their badge of office.

Celestian Squad:

-Given easier tests of Faith with comically low chances to fail, this unit needs to be higher costed. Initiative 6, 2 (3 on the charge) attacks apiece hitting on a 3+ automatically with rerolls to wound? Hell no, and that's without any of the wargear options.

-You should specify with Holy Hatred that it only works against models with a WS value. Hitting on a 3+ against a vehicle that moved flat out with meltabombs is more than a little over the top.

-There is very little to make this squad useful when held up next to a Sister of Battle squad. 40 points more nets me 5 additional sisters with identical characteristics and the ability to be a scoring unit, minus only a Chainsword and Holy Hatred.

Repentia Squad:

-Well done, excepting the Repentia Mistress special rule. Assaulting out of a transport is HUGE, and is not something that really makes any appreciable sense (being based more on the design of the transport vehicle than anything else. Swapping this for Furious Charge would make a great deal of sense.

Vindicator Squad:

-Too cheap! Power Armored Snipers with BS4 is very tough to get rid of, especially as getting and staying on cover is pretty simple. 15 points apiece is not unreasonable.

-See Accurized Bolter *****ing in the Wargear section. Likewise, they should have some access to heavy weapons, be it missile launchers with those awesome Exorcist melta warheads or some other cool bit. As is, there is almost no reason not to simply take Novitiates for more sniper rifles at a cheaper cost.

-Masterful Aim is an absolutely stupid rule. Any Marksman will tell you the farther you are away from a target, the harder it is to hit. Inversing this rule to within 12" might make sense.

-I don't care if its a different pattern, it's still based on the same STC. A heavy bolter is R36, S5, AP4. The Godwyn pattern Sororitas bolter has identical stats to an Adeptus bolter, don't make things confusing. That said, it's a Sniper! One does not make a Sniper out of a weapon designed to fire a full out tide of armor piercing explosive death. This weapon is completely senseless, and **** slaps sensible weaponry design.

Sororitas Novitiates:

-I love this unit to death fluffwise. That said, 2 concerns:

-Shotguns and Inferno rounds should not be both AP5 and ignore cover. AP5 I could deal with, as it makes sense. Ignore Cover does not. For that kind of ability, there needs to be a steep point cost, as cover is the main defense for a large number of models. The Manstopper rounds you mention would be great for a free swap, trading AP6 for S4.

-Marksman Auto-rifles should either be a shorter ranged sniper rifle (with the Sniper rule), or a longer ranged autogun. Not both.

Sister of Battle Squad:

-No complaints.

Faithful Citizen Squad:

-No link, where might I find this?

Dominians Squad:

-Needs to be more expensive than a line Sister, around 13 points or so. Scout enables Outflanking, and also to reflect the increased dispensation of special weapons. Only complaint really, Dominians needed Scout.

Sisters of the Nightflame:

-Everything about this unit morally offends me. An entire stealth unit does not carry a weapon which spews a tide of Flaming death to advertise their presence to the entire world. Likewise, 100 points for a 5-man, Power Armored squad with 5 flamers is insane. The point cost does not reflect the amount of damage this unit can put out on just about any target they care to.

Seraphim Squad:

-Do not remove Hit and Run's limitation. Their training represents them being able to do it, not do it flawlessly. The Initiative test should remain.

-Too cheap. Deep Strike, Jump Packs, favorable wargear loadout, and dangerous wargear options make higher point costs required.

Zealots Squad:

-Same problem as Faithful Citizens, couldn't find them.

Exorcist Tank:

-I don't need to tell you that the random roll is the only balance to the Exorcist launcher, as there is no reason not to take three of the things to each and every game. Either keep these changes to the base launcher, and reflect that by pricing it even more expensive than the Manticore's d3 S10 AP4 Large Blast versus your 2d3 S8 AP1 (AP1 trumps S10 against all but the heaviest vehicles) at around 170. Mini-Sponsons, which make this tank even MORE dangerous, should be around 40 points.

Hierophant Siege Tank:

-Another, can't find it problem.

Leman Russ Vengeance:

-The main cannon is utterly ridiculous for only 30 points above that of a Leman Russ. Not only is the tank BS 4 ( enough to make it 30 points more expensive as is), but then you go and upgrade the main gun into an utter monster with AP1 Ordnance, and a potential for 2d6 Pen. Large Blast reduced to Blast doesn't even begin to excuse this. No, just no. Back to the drawing board with this, even without mentioning how silly it is to give a Leman Russ Battle Tank to the Adepta Sororitas after they are tasked to the Imperial Guard, and with a limited exception to the Space Wolves.

Retributor Squad:

-Boltcannon has to be one of the coolest heavy weapon names I've heard of. That said, it's an Autocannon with a higher ROF. No real reason to make up an entirely new weapon if it doesn't differ from the base version. Just add Autocannon as an option and remove this Boltcannon to reduce confusion and odd model configurations and targeting restrictions.

Dropship:

-Awesome

-Except for the Mishap result modification. Everything inside dies as the ship malfunctions, crashes, and explodes. K.I.S.S.

Immolator:

-A R20.5 inch reroll to wound Heavy Flamer seems a bit much for 65 points. Especially when factoring in transport capacity as well.

Repressor&Rhino:

-Nothing to say about the Repressor.

-Efficient Firepoints is silly. Once again, don't add rules to STC constructs. They are all fundamentally identical, unless you create another version of the vehicle.

Celestine:

-No auto-passing Hit and Run. Keep the rule as it is. She has I:5 anyway!

-You have made her basically unkillable. Bad. With artificer armor, she is not easy to kill, and can do a lot of damage to what she hits. You need to let this go off once only, or go with the old style.

-Repent is arguably the best offensive non-shooting Act of Faith. It needs a limitation of some sort.

Praxaedes:

-First thing which I argue should be cheaper.

-Mace of Banishment shouldn't strip powers.

-Redemption is incredibly cool.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 07:35 AM
1: They receive such training at the Schola Progenium and the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, due to their connection with the Ordo Hereticus.

2: Combat Resolution in an assault. If you think Stubborn is effectively useless, then you don't know 40k very well.

3: Educate yourself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing) Effectively, this is a standard weapon that has been tweaked and customized to be more accurate. This happens all the time in the modern military, and I have no problem seeing a Mechanicus ritual (performed for a fee of course) to convince the machine spirit to fire more accurately.

4a: No they aren't.
4b: Two twin-linked bolt pistol shots.

5: And you get a model that is effectively a Celestian Sister Superior with two wounds for that. Only without Holy Hatred.

6a: What? You're saying a 2+ save is worse than a 3+ save? Try being more coherent.
6b: Read the fluff behind the unit.
6c: Read the fluff behind the unit.
6d: I disagree.

7a: Granted to the Sororitas by the Ecclesiarchy.
7b: I compromised between C:IG priests and C:WH priests when I producd that statline and equipment.

8a: I see no reason why they should. They're still just S3/T3, even with their occasional boost to initiative..
8b: I can do that.
8c: And yet you whined about them being good in point 8a. How ironic.

9: I don't think so.

10a: Maybe. But you misspelled the name of the squad.
10b: Seen, and ignored for being wrong.
10c: Which would not properly emphasize their role as mid-ranged damage dealers.
10d: Apparently it's not.

11a: They fire them at BS3, however, and they're still S3.
11b: Look up Squad Designated Marksman.

12: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

13: They have the same statline, but have Scouts instead of being Scoring. I don't see why they should have an increased price.

14: I couldn't care less if it offends you.

15: Tell GW that. Also, no.

16: Same cost as assault marines, but without MEQ. Deal with it.

17: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

18a: Predator chassis vehicles all received price reductions in all Imperial codices. This one got the smallest of price reductions.
18b: It is, just a few points shy of that.

19: Chapter 9: Units and Rules Under Discussion

20a: It gives up large blast to instead have a 1/3rd chance to melta. That's hardly more of a "monster" than the LRBT is.
20b: Don't care, too bad, so sad. Already been discussed to death, and my reasons for making the decision have been stated and overstated time and time again.

21: For someone whining so much about the fluff, you appear to have forgotten the holy trinity of Sister weapons.

22: And in this case, the model still dies, but its passengers survive due to the sacrifice of the crew. It's less complex than Orders at least.

23: Deal with it. It's basically the same price as the current one, I just added +1 to frontal armor.

24: Deal with it. It's basically the same rule as Marines have with their Rhinos, only I gave it a name.

25a: That is the rule as it is. See the C:WH FAQ.
25b: I made her worth taking compared to other similarly priced models in fifth edition codices.
25c: It does have a limitation.

26a: Then suggest a price.
26b: Suggest an alternative. These are GW's rules, not mine.

Irdion
05-17-2010, 08:55 AM
1: The Schola instructs students to be perfect imperial citizens, with the premier imperial education and weapons training. Not to hunt down Psykers. The Ordo Hereticus does that, but given that THEY don't have Preferred Enemy: Psykers, I see little reason why the Eccleisiarchies goon squad should.

2: I had assumed shooting, as I didn't see Stubborn mentioned. Shows what I get for working by keywords for so long.

3: Word it may be, and I now consider myself enlightened upon this vocabulary expansion, it still makes little sense why this would occur, given the very clear background material on the Sisterhood and Eccleisiarchy holding onto what tech relics they posses as the Mechanicus is largely unwilling to deal with them. And likewise, this is NOT the modern military. They work on well-understood technologies with simple maintenance procedures, not guns with computer-assisted targeting which you need to pray to in order to have it function properly. If your explanation were the case, why would the true elites and Peers of the Imperium, the Astartes, not have them?

4a: Yes, they are. Given that chain of argument, this could go on for awhile.

4b: Still a VERY expensive set of two bolter shots. Excuse me while I pick up a Power Sword and Plasma Pistol for the same price.

5: True, and with 2 Faith Points on top of that which I can easily hide in a unit for ablative wounds. Why wouldn't I spam these again?

6a-d: Clearly we are operating on different wavelengths. Terrible fan-fiction does not a new unit make. You seem to be leaving out the whole Mechanicus/Imperial Cult schism, and show little knowledge of how technological knowledge is imparted. It is a religious cult of the machine, dedicated to the Omnissiah. Combining the true, pure faith of the Sisterhood with other religious teachings makes little sense.

7a: True, but only in the case of the Mantle. The Cloak is a unique artifact which St. Aspira herself wore, blessed on Holy Terra; about as Sororita unique as you can get. Likewise, the Ophelian Mantles are given over to the Sisterhood as well. The Priesthood has their own vestments.

7b: Understandable

8a: A good point, but Holy Hatred makes hitting less of a concern, leaving only wounding rolls which can be pumped up through wargear - really making those hits count. Albeit it is entirely possible I am placing too much weight on potential rather than existing utility.

8c: Needing to cost more is not necessarily counter-intuitive on this point. My argument consists of what they need to differentiate themselves. Counter-Attack, Furious Charge? something to make them distinct from normal Battle Sisters.

9: Be that as it may, its the transport which constrains assaulting out of it. Hence why we have the Open-Topped rule, and the exception with the Assault Vehicle rule.

10a: Apologies

10c: Not an excuse for a totally nonsensical rule. Boltguns with a longer range do that on their own.

10d: Pointing out that it makes no sense, no more than that. Obstinacy doesn't change that.

11a: They do, but they are Assault 2. Larger squad with better weaponry than Marine Scouts for cheaper? 1 less strength and toughness doesn't justify that.

11b: where?

13: Because they can outflank their Designated Transport with them. Immolater in the flank is scary.

14: Well then, explain how it is point-justifiable? An entire squad with Flamers and Infiltrate?

15: There are many things I would like to tell Games Workshop, not many of them are kind.

16: Point Taken

18: Pointing to the most under-costed unit in the Witch Hunters Codex and using price reductions in other codex's hardly seems fitting. This is entirely opinion on my part, naturally, but the Sponson Launchers really remove any semblance of balance the Exorcist had.

20a: Entirely forgetting the BS4 and the AP1. BS4 alone is worth 30 points.

20b: "I don't like Rhino-chassis vehicles, they're stale" is not a valid argument. Entertaining in my dark pit of a heart, but totally irrelevant. There isn't any fluff backing for the decision, and that's all that matters to me.

21: :) I have not, but inventing a clunky new ruleset for a nonsensical weapon is not really the way to go about it.

22: But Mishap is there to prevent you from being overly bold. Valkyries and Stormravens crash and explode, what makes the dropship special?

23: Fair enough, no worse than the Baal Predator I suppose.

24: Marines are Special Snowflakes. Don't you know this by now?

25a: So it is. Seems I've been playing my model wrong for awhile.

25b: No, you made an unkillable model excepting a 3/36 chance. There really is no way to excuse that fact.

25c: Not compatible with Hand of the Emperor or The Passion is not a limitation.

26a: 170? I'm spitballing, because there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules for pricing special characters.

26b: Fair enough, but it seems a bit much. A modified Leadership test would at least give the enemy a sporting chance.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 09:44 AM
1: Good thing I didn't create any goon squads. I created the Sisters of Battle. Hate the witch, find the witch, burn the witch. Also, the Schola DOES in fact provide education to seek out and find heretics and witches-- to commissars, at least, as shown by Ciaphas Cain. It's an advanced lesson, but a lesson nonetheless, and I see no reason why the Sisters wouldn't also receive such lessons given their connections to both the Imperial Cult and the Inquisition. In both aspects, they must root out heresy and witchcraft.

2: The Book of St. Lucius is, effectively, an enhanced version of Stubborn. Stubborn normally applies to only morale tests, while the BoSL applies to both morale tests and pinning tests.

3: The Mechanicus does this kind of thing all the time. They just get angry when OTHER people do it.

4a: So stop it.
4b: Two bolter shots which re-roll to-hit, and also provides an extra attack and all attacks re-roll to hit. It might be slightly overcosted, but not by that much.

5: Because you can only have two HQ slots, and Heroines hit much harder and have a better retinue.

6: The Mechanicus also worships the Emperor, under a different name. It is not such a high hurdle as you make it.

7a: The Cloak of St. Aspira is not unique, and never has been. Blessed Weapons are unique, one per army, yes, but the Cloak? No.

8a: Yes you are. Keep in mind that, as good as they seem, they're still just human. S3/T3 is still a rather strong limitation on their abilities in close combat, and T3 is a strong limitation in general.

8c: They do differentiate themselves-- through being equipped for close combat, having WS4 / I4, and Holy Hatred. Things which Battle Sisters do not have.

9: Which is something that someone who wants to transport their Repentia will have to deal with.

10c: It's no more nonsensical than having no reduction in accuracy for having moved. Or a tank being unable to fire its weapons while moving. Or guys with axes being able to assault a skimmer which should be able to just raise out of their reach.

10d: You mean pointing out that you're wrong by saying that apparently it's not necessarily of the same STC is nonsensical? Nevermind the fact that there are variations on the same weapons all throughout the Imperium. Just the various Leman Russ and Baneblade patterns prove this, but if you want to look into small arms? The variation is much, much larger. Go read the Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook supplement for examples of the innumerable variations on small arms in 40k. And yes, before you whine, Dark Heresy is just as much canon as any BL book, if not moreso. It is a licensed work, and GW's own authors actually are attributed as writers in several of the supplements.

11a: Also one less toughness, as well, and no infiltration abilities, and no heavy weapon, and no frag/krak grenades, no pistol, etc etc etc.

11b: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
One example of a weapon designed for the Squad Designated Marksman. Effectively, it is an accurized and modified M16 rifle, able to provide mid-ranged sniping and fire support.

13: And it's supposed to be. But it's no scarier than, say, a certain Guard character who can outflank anything.

14: They cost 20 points each, are 0-1, and can only ever have five members. Orks pay 15 points for Burna Boyz, but Burnaz are also power weapons so that comparison is awkward-- Orks obviously have a lower save, but hit harder, and furthermore Orks also have the ability to take squads up to fifteen and ride in open topped transports wth front armor 14 that also always get a 4+ cover save. I kinda wish I was joking, but I'm not.

Eldar pay 16 points a model for Fire Dragons, and those are meltaguns... while they have a lower save, they also have higher initiative, meltabombs, and special abilities from the Exarch. One could make a point that Sisters of the Nightflame are overcosted. Five could wipe this squad out in one turn, and the Exarch's shot could ignore cover at BS5, while costing less than the Nightflame Veterans.

15: Agreed.

18: Rhinos are undercosted? Razorbacks? Predators? Vindicators? Whirlwinds? Well, I suppose then my costing of it has precedent then.

20a: So basically you're saying it's balanced, seeing as it DOES cost 30 points more than the LRBT (AP1 is part of being melta as far as I'm concerned). Good for you, let's move on.

20b: But "I don't care" never gets old. For me, anyway.

21: It's hardly clunky, it works within the rules quite clearly, modifying things, but not adding anything new.

22: They're designed for it. They're orbital landing vehicles.

24: Yes, special, but not in the way you're using it.

25b: So basically like Yarrick, except a bit tougher.

25c: Must be used on a model within a certain distance of Celestine. I might reduce that radius, but that's the limitation. I might even make it be only Celestine and the unit she's joined.

26: Personally? I want to redesign Praxedes entirely. Her rules and points costs are a throwback to second edition, and they're very awkward here.


I'm surprised you didn't comment on penitent engines... that's one of hte units I can't seem to get quite right, and the one I want the most comments on.

Irdion
05-17-2010, 10:32 AM
Primarily because I see no way to fix Penitent Engines in the current ruleset. Arguably one of the most awesome units in the game, and no way to fix them to my mindset. Everything I've ever tried has made them either ridiculously overpowered, or even more useless.

1: Rooting it out is much different from killing it. Unbound Psykers have entire Witch Hunter armies sent to kill them, mostly with massive casualties. You don't kill these guys regularly enough to get preferred enemy against them. Cain was smart enough to attempt running the other way.

2: I got it the first time, I had just glossed over the implications.

3: Exactly, and people get killed. Sisters dutifully maintain their equipment, they don't experiment with it. You want to play with all sorts of cool toys, play the awesome Mechanicus fandex over at Tempestus.

4a: Soon as you give me a reason why both are necessary. They are fundamentally the same thing, excepting the number of hands and a difference of 1 Strength. Why should both exist?

4b: With WS 5, you're going to be hitting on 3's most times, so the reroll is mostly unnecessary. You have strength 3, so wounding is iffy (4+ at best), and the opponent gets their full save. A normal bolter is about 3 points for equivalency in shooting. What makes this worth 20 points?

5: Meh, not hard enough to justify the extra 35 points. I can take 2 Angeli for a fraction more than a single Heroine. And all a retinue is is an additional Kill Point in Annihilation missions. Much better to attach to squads.

6: On the contrary, the worship a facet of the Emperor as the pinnacle of logic and truth, largely considered subversive if not outright heretical by the Imperial Cult. The hurdle is indeed quite high.

7a: This is news to me. I had always presumed that the cloak was the Cloak of Saint Aspira.

8a: I'll roll with this, primarily because it makes sense to me. I am convinced.

8c: Indeed, but that hardly makes them a unique role. These need to be elite! All they are know is Sister's with anger issues and a slightly different combat loadout.

9: As it should be. Without an Open-Topped vehicle or an Assault Vehicle, the Repentia should not be able to assault out of a transport. Quite frankly, why not make a Repressor variant that is open-topped? Give it a Siege gun of some sort for polite knocking at the door, and you have a solid Sister exclusive variant.

10c: Justifying absurdity with absurdity does not make valid precedent.

10d: I was hardly going to whine about Dark Heresy. My whinging is based on the concept that, barring a few very small differences, the vast majority of weapons are basically identical, and the ones that aren't are exceedingly rare. It is very hard to argue that the Sororita would be toting heavy weapons more powerful than the Marines (who have the whole testicular shrinking steroid nutcase route), or the Guard (who simply stick them in place and wait for the enemy). If anything, the Sororitas Heavy Bolter would be weaker than the Marine version, if only because it would be impossible for a normal human (even in power armor) to lift.

11a: Still performs the basic shotgun scout role far better, and still doesn't explain why the weapons ignore cover. Likewise, the squad is twice as big as the similarly costed scout squad.

11b: I repeat my statement on weapons being of a similar mark, and mass issued for the purposes of 40k. If you want guns that make sense, check out Flames of War.

13: Fair enough, but Guard pays for that privilege. Admittedly though, my argument here seems based on semantics and perceived threat. The precedent I have makes one pay for this kind of ability.

14: Burna Boyz don't have Power Armor, can't Infiltrate, and have pre-existing fluff which makes sense, same as Fire Dragons. Reverse the rolls and let the Nightflame squad get their shots off, and watch that big unit of Burna Boyz crumple, or those Eldar Fire Dragons reduced to smoldering wrecks. The difference is neither of those units, carrying pyrotechnic displays in their pockets, try to get away with Infiltrating. Plus, they don;t have silly names.

18: I'm not mentioning anything other than the Exorcist here. You've gone off and improved its already considerable main gun, and added the option to take away its weaknesses. That merits a price increase.

20a: Pretty much the exact opposite. Make this thing 200 points, and we'll talk.

20b: Meh, its your 'dex. You know there isn't any fluff basis without creating it.

21: Much simpler to just call it an Autocannon and make it an option. You're trying to make an Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Team outside of their codex.

22: So are Drop Pods, and when they mishap (off the table or other nonsense) they still can blow up into tiny bits with all the passengers inside. Stormravens are a better example, because they are orbital entry vehicles, and you know what? Still blow up into tiny pieces with all the passengers on a mishap.

24: Entirely agreed.

25b: Yarrick has a 50% chance of death. Celestine has an 8% chance. Hardly sporting.

25c: Either one would work. Heck, making it an aura ability ala Sanguinary Priests might be a better way to represent it. Give her more of a reason to justify that point cost IMO.

26: Agreed. She has a great background, and really should return as a character. The only problem I have with her is how situational she is. there isn't really a way to turn her into anything BUT a raving Psyker hunter.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 11:00 AM
1: The Witch Hunters picked the Sisters out of all the Imperial forces to assist them in hunting down rogue psykers. They also help guard the Black Ships. Apparently they do have experience and know-how, more than other Imperial organizations at any rate.

3: Which is why they pay the Mechanicus to do it for them.

4a: You answered your own question.

4b: And what points cost would you give it? As I said, it might be a bit overcosted, but I'm not sure it's THAT much over what it should be.

5: If you attach to squads, the HQ unit can be targeted by a hidden power fist, and killed in one blow. If you have a retinue, however, they count as upgrade characters, and therefor cannot be targeted specifically in close combat until they're the last ones alive in the squad. It's a HUGE benefit to the model's survivability.

6:Logic yes, truth? Hardly. The Mechanicus lies to its own people just as much as any other organization. It does not reveal the truths of science except to a privileged few.

7a: If it was, then why could you have two of them in any army?

8c: And they aren't elite... how? They hit faster, they hit more often, they can hit harder (better equipment for close combat), and they can have better upgrades. These are not sternguard, or vanguard veterans, or terminators, or nobs, or striking scorpions, or whatever, they are Celestians. Their own unique flair on the elite assault squad.

9: I'm not touching the Repressor. It's an Imperial Armour vehicle, and so any updates will be done thorugh Imperial Armour.

10c: You don't seem to comprehend what a precedent is. Quite simply, a precedent is "an example that is used to justify similar occurrences at a later time". GW's decisions may be absurd to you, but it does establish a precedent for making Rhino variant vehicles cheaper.

10d: How much, then, do you claim a Marine heavy bolter weighs? How much, then, do you claim a Sororitas in power armor can lift? I don't buy your arguments even for an instant.

11a: Look at the name of the ammunition.

11b: So quit whining then.

14: Watch those burna boyz be wasted... oh wait nevermind, they're in a battlewagon, sorry about that they're perfectly fine.

18: And I'm talking about overall balance. I am designing a codex, not a single unit.

20a: No.

20b: One simply cannot create an adequate amount of units to match fifth edition codex in numbers of options without making **** up. There is not enough fluff about Sisters to do so.

21: Autocannons aren't bolter weapons, flamer weaposn, or melta weapons. Therefor, no. Even Exorcists are described as (stupidly, IMO) melta missiles.

22: And the expensive dropship blows up but allows its passengers to arrive semi-safely in the deployment zone. It's something that the dropship pays for.

25b: Yarrick also costs less and has more army-effecting rules, and a ridiculous amount of weapons.

25c: So mind writing up an example of what your proposed rule might be worded?

26: Turn her into a monstrous creature / HQ killer?



Did you find the Frateris Militia units?

Necrosis
05-17-2010, 11:56 AM
Sisters are the main guards on black ships. They do spend a lot of time there. Thus it does make sense for them to have preferred enemy vs psykers.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 01:00 PM
By the way, to expand upon my point of having to make **** up in order to make a full fifth edition codex, here's a list of units which I basically completely pulled out of my arse:

Angelis Imperial
Priestess of the Machine
High Priestess (no such rank to my memory, but arguably it could represent any high-level official)
Palatine Atraea
Vindictor Squad
Conflagrator Light Tank
Cult of the Blazing Sun
Sisters of the Nightflame
Leman Russ Vengeance
Heirophant Siege Tank
Adepta Sororitas Dropship

The rest could be justified or renamed to match something in the fluff already. That's just shy of half of this codex. Cutting these units out would leave the codex with... twelve units I think, not including transports. Space Marines have 32 units in their codex not including special characters. Guard have 23 not including special characters, Leman Russ variants, the various squads within Infantry Platoons, the various types of Hellhounds, and the various types of Artillery pieces. Tyranids have 31 units not including special characters.

Quite frankly, I'm being conservative with my list of units.

4 HQ choices
6 Special Characters (two upgrade chars and one more independent char still planned)
4 Elites Choices (including Arco-Flagellants)
3 Troops Choices (including Citizens)
5 Fast Attack Choices (including Zealots)
5 Heavy Support Choices (including the Heirophant Siege Tank).

That's a fairly light codex. MERELY 21 units without special characters. Even if we divvy up the Citizens into two separate squads, it still doesn't put us that close to fifth edition codices. The Sisters NEED new fluff to be made up, and since I'm making this codex, that means I get to make up the fluff. This includes advancing the plot, and having something similar to the Marian Reformation happening (and a civil war take place amongst the Ecclesiarchy because of it) due to a Living Saint desiring to change the Sisters for the better.

Nabterayl
05-17-2010, 01:26 PM
If I can jump in here on three points:

Preferred Enemy. Irdion makes a good point that psykers are not necessarily so similar to each other that you could learn to fight them (since there is no "them" to learn how to fight). However, it does make sense that Sororitas would hate psykers, and judging by space marine chaplains, that has the same in-game effect. If the rule instead was, "Such is the hatred of the Sororitas for the witch that any model with this rule may re-roll failed rolls to hit in close combat against a unit that contains a psyker," wouldn't we say, "Why not just say Preferred Enemy?"

Book of Saints. Sororitas may be schola educated, but they're Sororitas trained. Like space marines, they have the potential to be the best soldiers in the Imperium. Like space marines, their psychology sometimes gets in the way of that. I totally buy sisters militant holding on, bellowing the sermons of St. Whatshisname, in situations where a storm trooper would say, "Um, ladies? We really should be falling back now ..."

Machine Priestess. Irdion, I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing for. Can you source this "feud" between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus? It's not holding up in my mind. The Mechanicus at least worship the Emperor. Space marines blatantly do nothing of the kind, but the Ecclesiarchy has no problem making fellowship with each and every chapter cult. The truth is that the Ecclesiarchy is pretty pragmatic so long as you recognize the Emperor as the ruler and defender of mankind, which the Mechanicus certainly does. So I see no reason why the Ecclesiarchy should hold any special hatred for the Mechanicus. As for the other side of the fence, the Mechanicus is plainly willing to proselytize, as techmarines evidence. In fact, not only does the Mechanicus proselytize, it does so on a non-exclusive basis: techmarines don't renounce their chapter cults when they are trained; they simply add belief in the cult mechanicus, and apparently Mars is okay with that. I don't see why the Mechanicus would accept that and fail to accept a woman who held dual beliefs in the cult mechanicus and the cult imperialis. The cult imperialis is way more compatible with the cult mechanicus than are most chapter cults, after all.

But whatever "feud" may exist between Ecclesiarchy and Mechanicus, we need to remember that its severity is limited by the simple fact that the Sororitas can still make war. It's the Mechanicus that builds the Ecclesiarchy's war materiel, and the Mechanicus that maintains it (either directly or indirectly). So are you just saying that rather than having a priestess of the machine, the codex should include a techpriest enginseer?

Melissia
05-19-2010, 08:59 AM
On Penitent Engines:

I'm pondering removing the rule and giving them T6, fearless warrior, give another wound, and make force weapons count as power weapons (applicable mostly to daemonhunters force weapons and the sword of asur), which remove all wounds).

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 04:38 PM
On Penitent Engines:

I'm pondering removing the rule and giving them T6, fearless warrior, give another wound, and make force weapons count as power weapons (applicable mostly to daemonhunters force weapons and the sword of asur), which remove all wounds).
You mean Eternal Warrior?

That strikes me as fair. I mean, if a Penitent Engine fell into a Jaws of the World Wolf crack, it really ought to be destroyed, and the current rules would prevent that.

I still think it's odd that you give them a heavy flamer instead of two flamers, though. Also, if you remove the Rampage rule, would you be removing the DCCWs from their wargear, and just making them S10?

Melissia
05-19-2010, 05:01 PM
Not likely.

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 05:25 PM
If you took away Rampage, what would be the point of having a DCCW (also, in what sense is it a DCCW? Is it a power fist that strikes at normal Initiative order, or is it just a power fist)? Monstrous Creatures can't lose wargear.

Melissia
05-19-2010, 06:07 PM
It's basically a power circular saw rather than a power fist.

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 06:22 PM
No no no, I mean rules-wise. What rules effect do you wish it to have? As a monstrous creature, the PE already ignores armor saves. As a monstrous creature (absent a special rule that you are apparently considering taking away), it cannot lose any wargear or weapons, unlike a walker. Is the only intended effect to be that a PE strikes at Initiative 1 but is Initiative 3 for all other purposes?

Melissia
05-19-2010, 06:58 PM
Its main intent is to increase its strength.

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Right, but that's only relevant if it can lose the item that increases its Strength. Ordinarily MCs can't do that, but the Rampage one allows this one to do so ... and I thought you started this out by saying you were considering dropping the Rampage rule in favor of Eternal Warrior and counting force weapons as regular power weapons.

Melissia
05-19-2010, 08:01 PM
So you reccomend I just change its strength to a base ten?

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 08:03 PM
Well, if you are getting rid of any mechanic whereby the DCCW could be lost, yes. For a normal MC, S5 with a piece of mandatory wargear that doubles its Strength is no different than S10.

Melissia
05-19-2010, 08:05 PM
Okay then. With these changes, what would you expect its price to be?

The changes being:

T6, +1 wound, Eternal Warrior, immunity to Force Weapons, no Rampage

Nabterayl
05-19-2010, 08:37 PM
Well, comparing it to a carnifex, I note the following:
Better WS, but inferior chance to hit (WS4 < WS3+two sets of scything talons)
No ranged options
Better base Strength
Better base Initiative
Better base Attacks (reading D6+2 as 5.5)
Better base Leadership (incidentally, the carnifex is an example of a Fearless model that is not Ld10)
Better base armor save
Better invulnerable save
Eternal Warrior+
Rage
Fleet
On the whole, I'd say a Penitent Engine with the modifications you describe make a Penitent Engine about as good as a carnifex. It will hit less often but has more attacks to make up for it, it is faster, and it has equal or better durability all around. On the other hand, it's less controllable, and can be built in fewer ways. On the basis of that comparison I'd say a PE should cost about 150 points (i.e., "as much as a carnifex, but a discount for the lack of flexibility").

Melissia
05-19-2010, 09:52 PM
Hrm. What can we do to bring that down? three wounds and T5? I really don't want it to be expensive.

Nabterayl
05-20-2010, 02:48 AM
T5 and W3 I think would go a long way toward reducing the price, as would reducing the unit to A1d6 (after all, remember that right now a PE on the charge gets a minimum of four attacks, each of which is S10, ignores armor saves, and rolls 2d6 for armor penetration!). I would think that either of those changes (T5+W3 or A1d6) would be worth cutting the price down to about 100 or 110, respectively. My reasons, unscientifically:
T5 by itself is only a small change, when you remember that the model still has Eternal Warrior (so it's not magically vulnerable to S10 hits) and 2+ armor (so it's only marginally more vulnerable to small arms fire). However, I think W3 is a big deal. I would bet that for a unit as comparatively slow as a Penitent Engine, the difference between W4 and W3 is often going to be the difference between the model reaching the enemy lines and dying just before its charge. That, coupled with the small increase in vulnerability due to T5, justifies a significant price drop in my mind - in order to make up for it, you'll need to either use more PEs or have more points available to support them.
The average difference over time between A1d6 and A1d6+2 is only two Attacks, which may not seem like much - but the difference between a minimum of one Attack and three Attacks is, I think, a big difference. A bad roll with a minimum of one Attack could easily cause the model not to win a close combat, tying the model up for another round unexpectedly and exposing it to another round of hidden powerfist attacks (to which, at either T5 W3 or T6 W4, the model is quite vulnerable). Since there's a significant chance of a Penitent Engine rolling badly on its Attacks at least once per game, removing the cushion of the +2 Attacks also justifies a significant price drop in my mind. I judge this the lesser of the two price drops because at T6 W4, the model is still fairly likely to get into close combat in the first place.

Of the two, I favor the T5+W3 change, personally. If the choice is between making a Penitent Engine less robust or less of a buzzsaw in CC, I think the flavor of the unit best fits making it less robust.

Melissia
05-20-2010, 07:07 AM
Agreed. It's meant to be a bit vulnerable to shooting, but an absolute beast in close combat.

Melissia
05-26-2010, 02:44 PM
Idea for a possible Exorcist variant:


R72", S4 AP5, Ordnance Barrage, 2d3 Small Blast, Ignores Cover Saves

Same price (possibly more?), but the vehicle would have to be one or the other.

Sitnam
05-26-2010, 09:10 PM
Instead of a differrent variant, why not make it a equipment choice. May exchange Excorcist missiles for (Insert name of new missiles) for free

Melissia
05-26-2010, 10:29 PM
Because giving it a variant means I can think up a cool name and increase the size of hte heavy support choices section.

Sitnam
05-26-2010, 11:15 PM
Eh I guess. Kinda like the ungodly number of Leman Russ variants in the IG codex.

Nabterayl
05-28-2010, 01:52 PM
On average over time 2d3 3" blast templates covers 9pi in.^2 of table. By contrast, a Whirlwind's equivalent barrage covers only 6.25pi in.^2 of table. I could go with that, since fluff-wise I have no problem with Sororitas armor hitting harder than Astartes armor, but be aware of that when crafting the price differential - and don't forget that multiple small blast templates gives the shooter greater control than a single template of equivalent area.

Also, I'm not sure these should be Ordnance weapons. After all, unlike a Castellan, we're talking about a number of small missiles, not a single large one.

EDIT: Actually, one thing I don't think fits well with this is the fact that multiple small blast templates gives the shooter greater control. Fluff-wise, Whirlwinds are supposed to be about the most sophisticated rocket artillery the Imperium has, and Exorcists in general have never been famous for their precision. Perhaps this variant should have a rule that when placing subsequent templates per the multiple barrage rules, "hits" should be placed as if they had scattered in the direction of the small arrow. The thought of one of these things stacking four 3" templates on top of the same cluster of guys just doesn't seem very Exorcist-like to me.

Melissia
05-28-2010, 04:45 PM
I intended to make them use double the scatter dice (which is what an indirect ordnance barrage does IIRC) and each individual shot scatters... shows how much I know about it, heh.

Nabterayl
05-31-2010, 03:14 AM
I intended to make them use double the scatter dice (which is what an indirect ordnance barrage does IIRC) and each individual shot scatters... shows how much I know about it, heh.
An indirect ordnance barrage is no different than any other indirect fire, except that you can't move and fire an ordnance weapon indirectly regardless of your movement class or vehicle type. You still get to subtract your BS score in inches if you can see the target, too. I like the idea of each individual shot scattering, though.

Melissia
05-31-2010, 07:03 AM
Could potentially be a lot of rolling though, heh.

Nabterayl
05-31-2010, 01:44 PM
No more than a squadron of grotzooka kanz.

Melissia
06-01-2010, 01:08 PM
Although it does break from the bolter/melta/flamer ideal, I'm considering giving the Sisters more than just combiplasmas and plasma pistols. Plasma does, after all, burn (to the point of vaporization mind you), and so it kinda fits still. And Sisters have always had limited amounts of plasma in their army list, and indeed GW specifically sells a Sister Superior with Plasma Pistol.

With all of that in mind, what's your (that is, the collective group of those reading this thread) opinion of plasmaguns as part of Sisters standard armaments, and plasma cannons on Retributors (or even as an option to replace the turret on the conflagrator with a plasma cannon)?

Nabterayl
06-01-2010, 06:58 PM
Hmmm ... I'm not much of a fan, honestly. While it is true that Sisters are into burny things, and plasma is certainly burny (no more or less burny than a melta beam, anyway, in my judgment), I feel like it misses the flavor mark. To my mind, there's a distinct subtext to the Sisters armory that says their weaponry must not only burninate but must also say to its victim, "F*ck you. No, f*ck you. F*ck. You." Hence the meltagun, as the most devastating man-portable anti-armor weapon, and the flamer, as the most devastating man-portable CQB weapon, and the bolter, as the most devastating combat rifle - and plasma pistols, as the most devastating pistol (absent infernus or inferno pistols, which I think it's perfectly reasonable not to be generally available to Sororitas).

Plasma guns, for all their admittedly grisly effects on man-sized targets, just don't strike me as having the same ... well, attitude. Hit an ork with a burst from a plasma gun and he goes down with a series of smoking holes stitched through his body. Hit an ork with a meltagun and he gets sawed in half or vaporized.

If you're looking to expand the armory, may I suggest instead allowing access to vengeance rounds and/or kraken bolts? Instead of giving retributors plasma cannons, you might make up special-issue heavy bolter or boltcannon rounds.

Melissia
06-02-2010, 03:13 PM
Decided against the plasma.

Melissia
06-12-2010, 08:18 AM
By the way... from Imperial Armour 1:


Many features that were originally modifications have now been accepted as STC and duplicated as such. In this way, what the Techno-Magi currently think of as pure STC designs are not, but lost in the mists of time. It is now impossible to separate original from adaptation.
I think this could be used to justify at least some of the various weapons and vehicles fluff-wise. What do y'all think? Some things need adjustment, or reworking entirely, in order to further justify their existence.

Nabterayl
06-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Well ... it can be used to justify anything. There's three ways the Mechanicus can bless a design:
The design is really an actual STC design, and the Mechanicus convinces itself that it's an STC design.
The design is really a modification of an actual STC design, and the Mechanicus convinces itself that it's an STC design.
The design is really not related to an STC design at all, and the Mechanicus convinces itself that it's an STC design.
The technological bottleneck is whether the Mechanicus can convince itself, arguing in good faith, that a given design is an original STC design. How hard or easy that is to do has more to do with the quality of the evidence presented than it does with the reality of the situation. We have no reason to believe that the Immolator was originally based on the Rhino chassis, but the Mechanicus has convinced itself that it was. We have no reason to believe that the Predator was ever designed to accept twin lascannons in favor of its autocannon, but the Mechanicus has convinced itself that it was. We have no reason to believe that the Leman Russ was designed as a tank, but the Mechanicus has convinced itself that it was.

So you could use this device to justify anything. The key to making it work, I think, is to provide a plausible reason for the Mechanicus to form a good faith belief that a given design is an STC design. In the case of the Leman Russ, I think the plausible reason is that the Russ' original designs simply don't exist, so the Mechanicus has no reason to suspect that the extant designs are not STC originals. In the case of the Immolator, I think the plausible reason is simply intellectual greed - contrary to popular belief, the Mechanicus is intensely curious, and takes the Quest for Knowledge quite seriously. In the case of the Predator, the plausible reason is threatened schism - nobody wants to declare two centuries' worth of trans-chapter space marine activities tech-heresy, so consciously or unconsciously the Mechanicus bowed to the political reality that the Annihilator pattern was here to stay.

Melissia
06-12-2010, 06:22 PM
Can the vast sums of money and political influence the Ecclesiarchy has add into this equation to help justify the idea of the Mechanicus basically sweeping the fact that it's a modification under the rug?

After all, the Mechanicus CLAIMS to be beyond greed and so on, but it needs workers, it desires political influence, and it has as much use for money as anyone else in the Imperium (to purchase resources, for instance).

I'm mostly thinking about the Conflagrator tank at the moment. The LRV has the same justifcation as any LR tank.

Nabterayl
06-13-2010, 02:32 AM
Can the vast sums of money and political influence the Ecclesiarchy has add into this equation to help justify the idea of the Mechanicus basically sweeping the fact that it's a modification under the rug?
Depends on what you mean by "sweeping under the rug." In my opinion, when dealing with the Mechanicus you have to start by treating them as True Believers. I don't think that any amount of money and political influence would influence the lords of Mars to consciously commit heresy. I'm pretty sure that if you tried to out-and-out force the Mechanicus to bless an original modification as STC they'd die first - or rather, cut you off from technical support, and if necessary, go to war for their beliefs.

That said, I can certainly see them unconsciously committing heresy. That's the key point about the Annihilator story - yes, it's a modification, but the Mechanicus has managed to convince itself that it was there in the STC data all the time (I imagine that to them this is not unlike somebody who reads a passage of Scripture or their favorite philosophy for the hundredth time and suddenly sees an insight he had never thought of before). Did the fact that it was an established space marine modification help to convince them? Maybe. Heck, probably - but the key fact is that the Mechanicus really believes that the Predator STC contained the Annihilator pattern.

So no, I don't think that literally sweeping under the rug fits with the flavor of Mechanicus lore. But I can imagine the money and political influence of the Ecclesiarchy creating a situation which helps the lords of Mars convince themselves that it isn't a modification - or, more likely given your timeframe, convince the lords of Mars not to enjoin the production of the design whilst they debate its provenance amongst themselves for the next several centuries. It could also be a military solution - if Conflagrators were instrumental in the defense or liberation of a Mechanicus world or important Mechanicus site, for instance, it would be awkward to declare them heretical - perhaps awkward enough that Mars would decide to do nothing while it conducts a thorough debate.

Melissia
06-13-2010, 06:35 AM
That I can definitely work with. I'll come up with a better fluff blurb in a bit.

Melissia
06-13-2010, 09:05 AM
The new Penitent Engine:

Heavy Support
Penitent Engines

<table border="1"><tr><td>105 Points</td><td>WS</td><td>BS</td><td>S</td><td>T</td><td>Wn</td><td>I</td><td>A</td><td>Ld</td><td>Sv</td></tr><tr><td>Penitent Engine</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>10</td><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>10</td><td>2+/6++</td></tr></table><table border="1"><tr><td>Type</td><td>Composition</td><td>Wargear</td><td>Special Rules</td></tr><tr><td>Monstrous Creature</td><td>1-3 Penitent Engines</td><td>2x Flamers
Cage of Condemnation</td><td>Fearless
Holy Rage
Unstoppable Rampage</td></table>
Cost is 105 per Penitent Engine


Cage of Condemnation
All psykers present within 6" of a Penitent Engine at the beginning of each turn must pass a leadership test or fall back. This will force Independent Characters to detach from their squad.


Unstoppable Rage
Penitent Engines have Eternal Warrior, and Force Weapons count as Power Weapons (including the Sword of Asurman and Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters Force Weapons). Penitent Engines that run before charging add a number of attacks equal to the inches ran instead of the usual +1 charge modifier.


Opinions? It should be simpler at least. I'm worried about points cost, as I'm unsure how to cost monstrous creatures.

Hugz4Genestealers
06-13-2010, 05:56 PM
Looks cool, and good, more importantly, but I gotta comment on the price. A three-wound, immune to instant death, strength 10 monstrous creature armed with two flamers in terminator armor with special rules that gets d6 bonus attacks on the charge for less than the cost of three terminators? A bit iffy if you ask me. Just an opinion, though.

Melissia
06-13-2010, 08:56 PM
It also has Rage, unlike terminators, and sticks out above a crowd (no using other units to give a cover save), unlike Terminators, and can't be transported or deep striked, unlike terminators.

A better comparison would be with other monstrous creatures, rather than terminators, but even then the Carnifex is usually agreed to be a bit overpriced.

Hugz4Genestealers
06-14-2010, 12:24 AM
Alright, then, comparing it to the carnifex, I would suggest perhaps dropping it to strength 9 and giving it furious charge, which would be a good fit with the Unstoppable Rage rule, as well. Having a crazy guy in an exoskeleton have a higher base strength than said carnifex is somewhat hard to swallow.
P.S. A question about the Cage: presumably it affects psykers locked in close combat, as well. So, if they are forced to fall back while locked in CC with the Engine, is it allowed to try and sweeping advance them? What about if the psyker is an IC?

DarkLink
06-14-2010, 12:32 AM
If the psyker is an IC, the psyker takes the test and falls back, which may cause him to detatch from his squad. If the psyker isn't an IC, then the psyker's entire squad falls back. The rule only affects psykers.

At least, that's the way I read it.

Hugz4Genestealers
06-14-2010, 12:42 AM
Yes, but can the Engine attempt to sweeping advance in either case?

Melissia
06-14-2010, 07:59 AM
Having a crazy guy in an exoskeleton have a higher base strength than said carnifex is somewhat hard to swallow.?

What exoskeleton? The "crazy guy" is nothing more than a prisoner that's along for the ride with the machine doing all the actual fighting and movement. Indeed, some Penitent Engine art actually depict the rider as headless. I don't see why I should nerf Penitent Engines, the stats are for the actual machine, not for the machine + rider.

Melissia
06-14-2010, 08:00 AM
Yes, but can the Engine attempt to sweeping advance in either case?

Can Sweeping Advances be made if your'e still in close combat?

For example, if you charge an Imperial Guard squad, but it doesn't flee the first turn, and a second Imperial Guard squad charges into melee as well (to tie your unit up some more)... and the first Guard squad finally flees but the second one is still in combat... can you in this situation perform a sweeping advance?

Nabterayl
06-14-2010, 10:37 AM
Can Sweeping Advances be made if your'e still in close combat?

For example, if you charge an Imperial Guard squad, but it doesn't flee the first turn, and a second Imperial Guard squad charges into melee as well (to tie your unit up some more)... and the first Guard squad finally flees but the second one is still in combat... can you in this situation perform a sweeping advance?
No, you can't.

Hugz, the S10 is partially my suggestion. Penitent Engines currently have dreadnought close combat weapons, which make them S5(10). Mel originally wrote her new PE as an S5 monstrous creature which had a power fist that struck at Initiative. This struck me as unnecessarily complicated, because an S5(10) monstrous creature that strikes at Initiative is no different from an S10 monstrous creature (well okay, except for purposes of Strength tests, but that seems like a pretty minor thing). So I suggested she just make it S10 and be done with it.

Rules question: do you intend to force the psykers to detach, or simply to move? There's a difference between forcing a unit to move out of coherency and detaching out of order. For instance, suppose an IC psyker in base contact with another model of its unit moves back d6" and rolls a 1. The way you have it right now that model would be in coherency with its unit, but still detached, which might be hard to keep track of. Another difference is if an IC psyker falls back during your turn, it suddenly becomes an independent target. And how do you deal with mixed units like psyker battle squads? If only the psykers fall back, is the entire unit considered to be Falling Back?

Melissia
06-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Good point. Just moving, and detaching if they're out of coherency with the unit?

And yes, if the unit that is taking the leadership test is the squad itself-- IE, psyker battle squads-- then that unit would fall back. Independent characters are the only ones that might separate from the squad.

Nabterayl
06-14-2010, 02:39 PM
So for instance, the minder of a PBS would Fall Back along with his psykers?

I think the way that makes the most sense to me for ICs is that IC psykers move, detach immediately if they move out of coherency, and are considered to be Falling Back if they detach (but not if they don't detach - the rules aren't set up to have models Falling Back, just units).

Another issue that occurred to me about this rule:

What about psykers that are currently locked in combat? Do they ignore the models they're locked with when they make their fall back move, displacing those models if necessary at the end of their move? Are they still locked in combat? Do psykers locked in combat just ignore this rule?

Melissia
06-14-2010, 03:19 PM
Hrm. This brings up a bit too many questions then. How would I redo it?

Nabterayl
06-14-2010, 03:32 PM
You could:

Say that all psyker models within x" of a Penitent Engine must pass a Leadership test (is it Leadership or Morale?) or move d6" directly away from the Penitent Engine, ignoring any models in their own unit and stopping if they come into contact with a friendly model or impassable terrain or within 1" of an enemy model. Models locked in combat would remain locked in combat, although after moving they would no longer necessarily be engaged, unless no model in the psyker's unit was engaged any longer, in which case the combat would simply end with no consolidation moves or Sweeping Advances.
Say that any unit not locked in combat, containing a psyker, within x" of a Penitent Engine must pass a Leadership test (is it Leadership or Morale?) or Fall Back.

Also, is this every turn? Or just on the psyker's turn?

Melissia
06-14-2010, 04:17 PM
It was intended to be on the psyker's turn, before the movement phase-- they count as falling back if they fail it.

Nabterayl
06-14-2010, 04:44 PM
It was intended to be on the psyker's turn, before the movement phase-- they count as falling back if they fail it.
I'd be sure to specify that. Things that are checked for every "turn" are kind of ambiguous.

Melissia
06-14-2010, 04:48 PM
True. And it is supposed to effect friendly psykers, too, mostly for apocalypse battles or team battles, so it'd just say the psyker's turn. I'm not the greatest at writing rules themselves, I mostly do concepts....

Nabterayl
06-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Along those lines, then, you should consider whether this is a Leadership test or a Morale test. The main difference (I think the only difference) is whether Fearless makes you immune (there aren't that many Fearless psykers, but there are some - for instance, weirdboyz can be Fearless, as can all tyranid psykers).

Melissia
06-14-2010, 10:01 PM
It's Morale. It's not meant to be THAT strong, just a nice fluffy ability.

Melissia
07-02-2010, 03:52 PM
I haven't abandoned this project yet, it's just kinda slipped to the side for now. I'll finish it with special characters and maybe a couple more Ecclesiarchy units later (for example, perhaps red redemptionists as a 0-1 Zealots upgrade).

Melissia
07-21-2010, 07:27 PM
Possible change to the power spear:

Instead of gaining more initiative on the charge, have it so that if the unit is charged, they always strike first regardless of all other variables-- resolve the Power Spear attacks first regardless of initiative, then resolve other attacks as normal.

So it'd be the following:

Power Spear: Power Weapon, +1 strength, two-handed, Reactive Strike
Reactive Strike: If a unit with power spears is charged, resolve all power spear attacks first regardless of initiative, then resolve attacks in initiative order as usual.


Basically people complained "but that's not how spears work!!!111oneoneone" and etc on th power spears. So here. I prefer the way it is now, but this is an alternative idea.

Nabterayl
07-22-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm not actually clear on how they do work now. The user may forego the usual +1A to strike at I10? Does that mean the Initiative thing only works on the charge?

Undeadreagan
07-29-2010, 07:57 AM
Keep in mind, I based my changes off of the Marian Reforms, and so the theme of the Sororitas in this codex is changing from Holy Warriors to Holy Soldiers, if that makes sense. The reformation was started after the Sororitas ranks were devastated all across the board by the wars of the 41st millennium, as zeal and pride caused a great deal of Sisters to make foolish military choices and do things which supported their zeal but greatly diminished the long-term cause of the Sororitas. And so, the woman-- whom had been declared a Living Saint by the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy beforehand-- began to reform the remaining Sororitas as well as begin to rebuild the organization, ensure all new leadership within the organization learns from not only the great tacticians of the past (such as Macharius, for example), but also the follies as well, including the organization's own follies and victories-- no loss is too shameful to remember and learn from, no victory too great that it cannot be reproduced or even surpassed by a brilliant and educated mind.



On the Priestess of the Machine: The Sororitas are the only faction in the Imperium that don't have a justification of how exactly their machines are maintained. As part of the reformations, the Living Saint who initiated the reforms met with the Mechanicus, and made certain agreements with them in exchange for training certain mechanically adept Sororitas in the rites of the Machine, so that their maintenance would be performed within the organization rather than from without, allowing the Sisters to be more independent in function but also raising issues (quite frankly, unnecessarily so) with some Inquisitors and Ecclesiarchal officials who fear that these individuals will corrupt the Sisters, making them accept the Cult of the Machine over the Emperor.

On the Vindictor Squad: I felt that a sniper squad worked perfectly with the shooty nature of the Sororitas, myself. The Vindictor squad also ties in with the Noviciates.

On the Confessors: Correct, they are a reworked version of the Priest listings from C:WH and C:IG. Their name is a reference to the Confessor unit of second edition C:SoB. Basically, there are three "ranks" of Ecclesiarchal officials in this codex. The High Priest(ess), the Confessor, and the Priest(ess)-- the High Priestess is an HQ unit, the Confessor is an attachable unit, and the Priest is a squad leader or the retinue of the High Priestess.

On Noviciates: I didn't give them bolters because I wanted to keep them from being too similar to Scouts. They function, essentially, in one of two ways: As a cheap and expendable assault squad, or as a cheap and large sniper squad. The story being both of these is simple: When equipped with the autoguns, they are essentially seen as doing target practice and improving their marksmanship, except their targets are firing back-- it's why I gave them BS3 instead of BS4. When using the combat shotguns, they are learning how to storm enemy positions, which Sororitas definitely do with their many short ranged weapons.

On dominians: They gained the Scouts special rule, and are able to purchase either lots of combiweapons or a smaller number of special weapons. Their transport also gains Scouts, of course.

On the Nightflame Squad: This goes along with the basic idea of the Repentia, a cult of Sisters whom take an aspect of the Sororitas and take it to the extreme. The Repentia take the self-deprecating nature of Sororitas culture (Described in C:WH as a lifestyle of "extreme self-denial") to the far end of the spectrum. The Nightflame squad, however, takes instead the reverence of flame to the extreme. To the Nightflame, fire is the Emperor's Own Implement-- such as the blindingly bright white fires that were used by the Living Saint Celestine. Essentially, they are pyromaniacs even by the measurement of the Sororitas, and have sought to use ambush and infiltration tactics in order to make better use of their most holy flamers.

On Seraphim: Seraphim were relatively unchanged except for a price decrease. I simply didn't see why Seraphim should be more expensive than Assault Marines.

On the Zealots Squad: It's not complete yet, but the idea is for an assault-oriented squad of, well, zealots. They are intended to have fleet and fnp, but other than that, I haven't decided. They might get Furious Charge instead of Fleet, but I'm leaning towards Fleet.

On the Heirophant Siege Tank: The Sisters don't have the long-ranged weaponry to commit to a long siege, nor do their choices of weaponry really lend them to that. The Heirophant Siege Tank is thus intended as a siege-breaker-- that is, it smashes through defenses and utterly decimates anything in front of it, breaking a hole in the defenses through which the infantry-- the true power of the Sororitas-- can pour through.

On the Exorcist Tank Hunter: Suit yourself. I think it'd look great, and depending on which version of the Exorcist you use, it would either make the pipe organ look even more massive or it would add a single missile launcher on each side of the Exorcist, which itself looks awesome in my mind.

On the Leman Russ Vengeance: Actually, the Exorcist is described as having armor somewhere in the middle between the Predator and Leman Russ. And don't try and say anything about what the Sisters are supposed to have tank-wise. In second edition, their only real "tank" was the Immolator. In third, the Exorcist, a tank hunter with heavy armor, was added.

This means, effectively, the Sisters currently only HAVE two actual tanks (the Rhino being a pure transport). There isn't honestly isn't much to draw upon. The primary reason I picked the Leman Russ as a basis is because it kept the Sororitas from looking too much like the Astartes. It also has the benefit of being more up to date, and is able to carry heavier weaponry. The fact that the current Leman Russ already has multimelta and heavy flamer options helped my decision along.

On the Sororitas Dropship: This was added as a means for Sisters to get from point A (space) to point b (the battlefield). It is essentially a flying rhino, based off of the Arvus Lighter (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm) which already exists in 40K and even has its own miniature-- it is not based on the Valkyrie.

On the Chimera: This is actually intended to be used only by Ecclesiarchal units, rather than those of the Sororitas. Chimeras are much more common than Rhinos, and much easier to procure due to them being present in Guard and PDF.


All hail the Mighty Melissa for her wonderful work on the Sisters of Battle,
Bow to her in thanks,
I said BOW!!!