CSM - Only Good for Heldrakes?

[DrBored]

So, looking at the tournament lists for Necrons, I couldn't help but notice that many Necron lists took a very small allied group of Chaos Marines. In one instance, they did nothing more than take the absolute minimum Sorcerer (no upgrades) and a cultist unit of 10, also with no upgrades, but then took a Heldrake with a Baleflamer. The rest of the 'cron list was mech'd up and pretty copy-paste from all the other cron lists out there.

Is the Heldrake really worth 300+ points to the Necron?

[Learn2Eel]

Well, aside from the Despair Cryptek/Deathmark combo with either a Veil or a Night Scythe, Necrons lack template/cover ignoring weapons that can butcher entire squads. Whilst Necrons work well enough without ignoring armour saves due to sheer weight of firepower, there's no doubt a Heldrake adds a lot of value there. I think the Chaos codex has a lot to offer beyond the minimal HQ/Troops and Heldrake, but I can understand why they do it. The Heldrake - especially post FAQs - is utterly broken and one of the most devastating units in the entire game.

[Caitsidhe]

The Helldrake is worth that much to the Necrons, certainly. It is a very good unit. Would it be worth over 300pts to me? No, but I'm not a Necron player. I am a CSM player and I do think the book offers more than Helldrakes, but it would be silly to ignore one of the few real gems they gave us this time around.

Enough time has passed to be brutally honest. The CSM book is hit/miss. It has really BAD units and some really GOOD units. The Helldrake is one of the best bangs for the buck.

[Sly]

CSM can get by without a Heldrake, because they have loads of other AP3 options in the Codex. None are as point-efficient as the Heldrake, and the Codex lacks point efficiency in other places. But, as an example, an Allied Tau squadron is very point-efficient fire support with S5/7 and AP5/4. If you put that into a CSM list and run Noise Marines, you get efficient anti-armor, solid AP3 from the Blastmasters, Doom Sirens, and a Burning Brand, and loads of options for Ignore Cover shots (Tau Commander can grant it to his squad, SMS on Broadsides, Markerlights, and of course all of the Noise Marine shots). So this list would be able to play without Heldrakes, or better yet, run Heldrakes with the Hades Autocannon for air superiority.

Now, consider Necrons... almost all of their firepower is AP4/5, generally lacks templates/blasts, has no Barrage weapons or long-range Ignores Cover abilities, etc... What do they do against a line of Lootas behind an ADL? The Lootas GTG against shots, and don't lose anything when firing blindly at the skies. Now you add in a Heldrake, and you start removing loads of models from cover, or removing bunches of models with a 3+ save. Something that the Codex doesn't really have anywhere.

It's just a perfect fit, where Necrons are probably the top Codex that most clearly lacks cover busting and efficient AP3 killing. When the solution to that comes in a very point efficient package, with a very minimal cost (HQ for 65, Troop for 55), it's not surprising that it will get picked a lot. I can also see IG being used as an ally with a squad of Griffons, but the Heldrake is better in most cases.

[DarkLink]

In one instance, they did nothing more than take the absolute minimum Sorcerer (no upgrades) and a cultist unit of 10, also with no upgrades, but then took a Heldrake with a Baleflamer.

But a 10 man cultist unit is a great cheap scoring unit in its own right. With the right psychic power the sorcerer can be pretty good, too. Worth it to get the heldrake.

[silashand]

Enough time has passed to be brutally honest. The CSM book is hit/miss. It has really BAD units and some really GOOD units. The Helldrake is one of the best bangs for the buck.

I find the csm book to be nothing but the previous codex plus a couple new daemon engines. Very bland overall if you want to play anything other than black legion or renegades. JMO...

[DrBored]

I find the csm book to be nothing but the previous codex plus a couple new daemon engines. Very bland overall if you want to play anything other than black legion or renegades. JMO...

I don't think this is really the case. It's got a lot of the 4th edition feel, but only on the surface. Once you start making a list, sitting down to figure out what you want to play, the options really do open up for you. Elite-heavy, troop-heavy, vehicle-heavy, horde, they're all viable options with CSM.

Problem is, nobody has bothered to LEARN the Codex. Enough time has passed? You mean, enough people picked up the book, took a glance at it, and sat it back down? I've had some great success with Chaos Marines with the new rules for Noise Marines, new points values for Bikes, and some of the spiffy new wargear.

What irks me is just the Necron players using CSM JUST for the Heldrake... That seems... a little OTT.

[Daemonette666]

I for one think the Helldrake is almost a guaranteed list take unit. I have been building what many would consider balanced (sort of) army lists with lots of cheap cultist units, Dark Apostles (MOT), Obliterators (MON), Helldrakes, and a Chaos Lord to unlock some of the Elite choices such as Abaddon (if a big game) for Chosen with Plasma Guns, or a Lord of Slaanesh for Noise Marines with Doom Siren, Blast Master, maybe Icon of Excess, and the entire squad has Additional CCW. I have been toying with taking an Imperial Guard allied contingent for 2000+ point games. I would take a cheap Command squad with Master of the Fleet, a cheapish Veteran Squad (meltas or flamers), maybe a Vendetta, and an Ordnance artillery squadron with a Gorgon and 2 Colossus.

I think the new codex does not have as much anti-air fire power as it could have been given. Maybe give Chosen and CSMs the same expensive option to upgrade missile launchers with Flakk Missiles. I am glad they atleast gave them Chaos Marks. The maulerfiend and Forgefiend could have been rolled into one unit that could be designed for the role you wanted. The Mutilator is pretty useless in my opinion, and the Nurgle Icon should have given a unit with the Mark of Nurgle a 5+ FNP, or +1 to their FNP if they had it already. Either that or Defensive Grenades and poisoned weapons. Mid you the icons cost a lot, can only guide Obliterators and Terminators in from Deep strike, and can be taken out with precision shots, so you lose the benefit as soon as the icon bearer is killed.

All in all it is a very useful codex with some nice cheap units, and a lot of combinations you can create. There are some units I will never buy or use, and many of the vehicles I now have will be sitting on the shelves collecting dust until vehicle rules get better.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think this is really the case. It's got a lot of the 4th edition feel, but only on the surface. Once you start making a list, sitting down to figure out what you want to play, the options really do open up for you. Elite-heavy, troop-heavy, vehicle-heavy, horde, they're all viable options with CSM.

They are all options. How "viable" they all are depend entirely on what you want them for. You are speaking in "glittering generalities" and that is rarely helpful. One can use ANY codex to make the types of lists you are talking about. That doesn't make them particularly competitive or even "viable."


Problem is, nobody has bothered to LEARN the Codex. Enough time has passed? You mean, enough people picked up the book, took a glance at it, and sat it back down? I've had some great success with Chaos Marines with the new rules for Noise Marines, new points values for Bikes, and some of the spiffy new wargear.

Yes, that's right; only you bothered to LEARN the Codex. The rest of us stuck our fingers in our noses and dug for green gold.


What irks me is just the Necron players using CSM JUST for the Heldrake... That seems... a little OTT.

Welcome to 6th Edition. Get used to it. Allies are part and parcel of the rules now. There are worse allied combinations.

[Pater Sin]

I have managed to make my army work perfectly well without a Heldrake, using CSM as allies just so you can use one model isn't really using the list to its full potential.

[Corbarvius]

What's worth using in the CSM 'dex:

Abaddon (Apocalypse), Huron, Kharn, Typhus + Zombies, Chaos Lord (various builds inc' MoK w/Axe, cheap Fearless leader, and Burning Brand bearer. Great with bikes), Winged Deamon Prince with Mace or silly Axe, CSM infantry (vanilla/MoK/MoN, infiltrating, with Rhinos, or walking, in 5s, 10s, or 20s), Vanilla Cultists, Terminators (especially with any of the Marks), Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Bikers (vanilla, MoK, MoN), Spawn MoN, Raptors, Havocs, Obliterators with MoN, Vindicator, and maybe the Defiler, Forgefiend and Maulerfiend.

[Demonus]

That list could have consisted of:

Obliterators
Hell Drakes
Kharn
Plague Marines

Everything else is just meh. Sure you could use it, sure it is "decent", but none of it is "Man this totally makes my army awesome!"
I dont see the Synergy to the Codex like you do in the Necron codex (dont own DA/Tau). Why is the Necron codex (and GK codex) a great codex? Cause lots of things compliment each other very well. I wish CSM did a better job of this. Maybe next time.

[DarkLink]

A buddy of mine plays thousand sons, and somehow he wins in our local tournament circuit all the time (and we have the largest gaming store on, like, the entire west coast. We've had 90+ people show up for some of our $15 entry fee tournaments). He (and I) find it hilarious. He says he wins by "rolling 4++'s and not being stupid".

But seriously, our opening tournament this year was at 1250, and he took Arhiman, 2x9 TkSons, a Hellbrute, a couple obliterators, and a unit of Terminators. And yes, that's a Hellbrute, not a Heldrake.

Of course, both of us are drifting towards higher quality rules like warmachine, so...

[Tynskel]

Warmachine is so bad. Yeah, the rules are 'better' but that brings out the worst in people. I tried so hard to collect them, but every time I pulled them out, it was just a bunch of the worst gamers on the planet that wanted to play.

[DarkLink]

It will be a welcome relief from 40k player *****ing about how we need to comp everything and how special characters are broken and how imbalanced the game is and how I'm cheesy for playing Grey Knights until I point out I've played them since before 5th ed and then it's really cool how I've stuck with my army and... well, at least PP cares about the quality of its rules. At our lgs there are plenty of annoying 40k players so I stick to the cool guys and girls anyways.

[Tynskel]

I simply don't play with people that complain like that.
Soooo, that pretty much removes the Warmachine Crowd, and a chunk of the 40k crowd. However, there's a sizable 40k crowd that doesn't do that junk, likes to just blow stuff up and go vroom vroom with the tanks, dakka dakka with the bolters, and pew pew with the plasma guns.

[The Sovereign]

A buddy of mine plays thousand sons, and somehow he wins in our local tournament circuit all the time (and we have the largest gaming store on, like, the entire west coast. We've had 90+ people show up for some of our $15 entry fee tournaments). He (and I) find it hilarious. He says he wins by "rolling 4++'s and not being stupid".


Really? Can he put out a tactica? I love the 1K Sons fluff, and plan to play them soon. I'm not a competitive player by any means, but it would be nice to not completely eat it hard for 4 months when I start.

[DarkLink]

Reecius from Frontline gaming actually asked him about writing a tactica, but my buddy doesn't really know where to start. He's not joking when he says that he wins by making 4+ invulnerable saves and not being stupid. He's also pretty busy with his job, I'm actually assembling some Valkyries for him in exchange for some Drop Pods and other Space Marine stuff.

[Pater Sin]

I would love to know why everybody is so obsesed by Heldrakes. I brought a forgefeind when they were they came out, but thats because a big stompy deamon engin with massive guns fits with the rest of my army. I can;t work out how to make the heldrake fit , I also only just started adding nurgle marines to the army because I needed something to do with the dark angles from dark vengence. My point is that is possible to build a viable army without having a big mechanical dragon and giving everything MoN or MoT.

[Caitsidhe]

I would love to know why everybody is so obsesed by Heldrakes. I brought a forgefeind when they were they came out, but thats because a big stompy deamon engin with massive guns fits with the rest of my army. I can;t work out how to make the heldrake fit , I also only just started adding nurgle marines to the army because I needed something to do with the dark angles from dark vengence. My point is that is possible to build a viable army without having a big mechanical dragon and giving everything MoN or MoT.

I don't disagree. It is perfectly "possible" to build viable armies without using the Helldrake. That being said, you army is always going to be more rounded if you include it. The Helldrake provides CSM with a force multiplier of an edge it has over most other Marine factions, i.e. AP-3 shooting. This is the one bone they throw us. We have it in Doom Sirens, 1K Sons bolters, and now in the Baleflamer and Burning Brand. In short, Chaos Space Marines are designed, by default, to screw over most Power Army factions, which happen to be mostly loyalist Space Marines.

From an "All Comers" perspective (which is the only one I build lists from) the Helldrake also allows Chaos Space Marines to deal with "hordes" style armies without having to match it in kind. I take at least 1-2 Helldrakes (but never more) in my lists because I can deal with more types of threats when it is there. It is also one of my AA options. One cannot rely on a Quad Gun and Havocs alone.

I do not dispute you (I agree in fact) that you can build pefectly decent CSM lists that include no Helldrakes. I submit that if you are going to regular tournaments without the options they provide, you are starting with a disadvantage.

[Demonus]

My only complain with Tsons is no Overwatch. If it werent for that, I think Id definitely give a Mainly Tzeentch army a go as Ive often used Tz Terminators and Daemons in my lists.