Whirlwind or Dakka Pred?

[Camael]

So I am working on a list and, conveniently, I have 85 points left to spare! So I was wondering, should I spend those points on a Dakka Pred with its heavy bolter and autocannon goodness? Or should I get a whirlwind and drop pie plates on light infantry? Below I am listing the pros and cons of each as far as I see them. Please feel free to add/remove pros/cons as you think is proper. I would also really like to bounce ideas around in here so have at it!

Predator (Pros)
Maneuverable
Decent Armor
Decent strength guns
Can engage light vehicles/MCs
I already own one

Predator(Cons)
Max 10 wounds
Needs LOS
Differing ranges on guns is annoying
Enemies get cover

Whirlwind (Pros)
Pie plate!
can ignore cover
good range
does not need LOS
likely to force opponent to shift play style

Whirlwind (Cons)
Bad Armor
Not great strength on weapons
My scatter dice doesn't like me
I would have to buy one

[Big_gay]

ive never heard of anyone having any success with a whirlwind ever. you could be the first but id be surprised
they don't really do anything. they just don't have much of a purpose. their ignores cover weapon has terrible ap so its hardly going to matter and it has meh armor. either it does nothing and dies or it does something minimal and dies. furthermore pie plates are easily negated with proper spacing, which your opponent cant always do but its still a blow to its effectiveness.

[Mr.Pickelz]

The Predator is a bit too direct, I'd go with the Whirlwind to toss something new/unknown at people. Having SM's with arty isn't something people are used to seeing or dealing with. Also since it's a good Infantry counter, this allows you to load out on more missiles/lascannons for AT issues.

[Tynskel]

Is it BA? Just remember to take full advantage of the whirlwind's speed if it is BA.

Unlike most tanks, the BA whirlwind can tank shock/ram the full 12" and still fire at anything within 48", LoS or not.

[Nabterayl]

I would point out that the Whirlwind, in 6th edition, has a 1/3 chance of landing a lot of wounds on the specific model of your choice. Not something that a Predator can do.

[Shas'O Alohcry]

I am usually more scared of the whirlwind and thunder fire cannon than of a Pred or two. I can hide from a Pred, or if using Eldar/tau/nids, just run cover to cover. There whirlwind and thunder fire cannon just hide aim and kill. Even when using my marines they can pump alot of wounds (if they scatter just right. Or I have been forced to bunch.)

It depends on what you want it to do. If you want to give yourself some extra anti-horde go with the whirlwind, if you want to take out light vehicles or MCs then go with the Pred. But unlike some people think, I have seen people have alot of success with whirlwinds and know one guy that doesn't build a marine list without one.

[Tyrendian]

I would point out that the Whirlwind, in 6th edition, has a 1/3 chance of landing a lot of wounds on the specific model of your choice. Not something that a Predator can do.

this pretty much - barrage sniping is just plain evil in 6th...
Also, it's just not true that no one likes Whirlwinds - they are not that popular, true, but in a TAC (Take All Comers) list they are a nice addition - I've seen Reecius from Frontline Gaming use one to rather good effect (in one game he even named it his all star of the match).

[Camael]

How would one barrage snipe?

[Pendragon38]

Or for 75pts take a pesky scout squad with sniper rifles.

Perry

[Tynskel]

1) you are not required to cover as many models as possible.
2) casualties start from the center of the blast
3) the requirement is that you roll full scatter (no BS modification).
4) Cover is determined from the center of the blast.

so, you can center the blast on a sgt. If you roll a 'hit', then roll to wound. All wounds must be applied to the sgt, and outward.

[dirkspair]

yes, this barrage sniping is one unfortunate result of the new rule set.
i would still go with the whirlwind, when i play my nids i bring at least one biovore and that pie plate is golden. very good at getting at pesky troops hiding behind an aegis line and guarding an objective.

[Denzark]

Is a dakka pred with HB/autocannon, as per OP, not 100pts?

[Wolfshade]

Is a dakka pred with HB/autocannon, as per OP, not 100pts?

I thought that they were more expensive...

The con of the lower armour of the WW is mitigarted by indirect fire so it can hide behind cover/out of LOS

[Tynskel]

Is it BA? Just remember to take full advantage of the whirlwind's speed if it is BA.

Unlike most tanks, the BA whirlwind can tank shock/ram the full 12" and still fire at anything within 48", LoS or not.

hmmmmm... going over the ordnance rules.
I forgot the tank cannot move, even though it has relentless.

I am not totally sure you can do this: fast says tanks fire at combat speed as though they were stationary, and for heavy vehicles (like the leman russ) they can fire as though they were stationary. So, perhaps, the BA Whirlwind can fire while moving 6".

[rtmaitreya]

BA whirlwind can move 6" and fire the ordnance.
BA whirlwind cannot tank shock/ram and fire its weapons in the same turn.

If you think a BA whirlwind can tank shock 12" and THEN fire it's ordnance, you have TWO rules you need to figure out how you break. As it stands based on RAW, you're not going to do what you want x2. Come back when you have two good ideas, otherwise you're not only wrong, you're "no chance of rolling a dice off" wrong, and "don't even bother calling over the tournament judge-who-is-your-brother-in-law" wrong. In the bell curve of rules discussion, you're at the fringy fringe left side, well below the 10% mark of finding too many wild-haired friends to back you up. Good luck at any general population game/tournament with that proposition.

[Houghten]

hmmmmm... going over the ordnance rules.
I forgot the tank cannot move, even though it has relentless.

Did you pick up the 4th edition rulebook by mistake? I mean, it says right there in the 6th Ordnance rules "a non-vehicle model." Then when you get to the vehicle rules it says "vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons." I can't find anything under Barrage about not moving either.


BA whirlwind can move 6" and fire the ordnance.
BA whirlwind cannot tank shock/ram and fire its weapons in the same turn.

How do you figure?

There's no restriction against shooting under Tank Shock Restrictions. Nor is there any restriction against Ordnance when it says "Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons at their full Ballistic Skill."



Seriously, I can't find anything that says a Fast Tank with Ordnance can't Tank Shock at Cruising Speed and then launch an Ordnance Barrage.

[White Tiger88]

Don't use ether........use the points and drop something else for a Contemptor dread, as things seem to sit in 40k right now tanks are well.....useless.

[Tynskel]

Did you pick up the 4th edition rulebook by mistake? I mean, it says right there in the 6th Ordnance rules "a non-vehicle model." Then when you get to the vehicle rules it says "vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons." I can't find anything under Barrage about not moving either.



How do you figure?

There's no restriction against shooting under Tank Shock Restrictions. Nor is there any restriction against Ordnance when it says "Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons at their full Ballistic Skill."



Seriously, I can't find anything that says a Fast Tank with Ordnance can't Tank Shock at Cruising Speed and then launch an Ordnance Barrage.

p. 51 vehicle model carrying an ordnance weapon cannot fire in the shooting phase if he moved in the preceding movementhase and cannot fire it as snap shots. Thus the 6" restriction.

[Caitsidhe]

Whirlwind. The ability to ignore cover and the proliferation of the gun line (particulary with the release of Tau gun lines) is extremely important.

[DeadPanda]

Don't use ether........use the points and drop something else for a Contemptor dread, as things seem to sit in 40k right now tanks are well.....useless.

Make it a Mortis pattern with cyclone and Kheres x 2 and your talking punishment to anything that comes at you. With BS 5 it's a killing machine and my favorite 40k unit bar non. (Just in case no one noticed ;) )

[Houghten]

p. 51 vehicle model carrying an ordnance weapon cannot fire in the shooting phase if he moved in the preceding movementhase and cannot fire it as snap shots. Thus the 6" restriction.

You might notice that the last two words in the previous line are part of the same sentence. Those two words are "a non-", which makes the full sentence "a non-vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the Shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase and cannot fire it as Snap Shots."

Jury's out as to whether a vehicle model can fire non-blast Ordnance as snap shots, but since we're dealing with a blast here, it's irrelevant.

As to the 6" restriction, a Fast Vehicle that moves at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons at its full BS. The Ordnance weapon's everything-else-as-Snap-Shots restriction prevents you getting the second weapon off to full effect, but you can still have the Ordnance weapon.

[Tynskel]

ah. I missed the 'non' part. whoopsies.

Why is the 'jury' out?
There's nothing in the rules about snap shots and ordnance in relationship to vehicles.
If you want to fire your Hellfury missiles, or the Laser Destroyer Cannons as snap shots, I don't see why not.

A waste for the missiles, considering they are 1 shot missiles...

[Houghten]

Basically, I don't actually trust GW to remember that they have non-Blast Ordnance weapons.

[Corbarvius]

Choose the Whirlwind

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Take the whirlwind. it will provide you with something that the predator will not.. indirect fire is something to never be underestimated. remember you can simply sit in cover behind a building and shoot until your opponent eliminates that whirlwind... and if he does.. he just sent a unit to deal with that 85 point beauty.... so not only have you forced him to take it but in an all commers list you have given yourself a ridiculous sniper rifle :)

[Magpie]

Jury's out as to whether a vehicle model can fire non-blast Ordnance as snap shots, but since we're dealing with a blast here, it's irrelevant.

Easy one for the jury
Page 13
"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots"

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

i just view it as a cheap way to get indirect ordinance and lets face it if your going to take a pred take one thats ac/lc sponsons atleast then its worth its points and can do some damage. where as i've never been a fan of the hb/ac pred just not effective enough imo. you could easily run a whirlwind its easy to hide and can be used to snipe. and lets not forget it has 2 different firing modes and more then likely will be getting some form of aa in the new book.