Refined Pure CSM (1850):

[Caitsidhe]

Here is a refined (from playtesting) all comers list:

HQ:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/Power Armor, Wings, & Black Mace 280pts
Chaos Lord w/Mark of Nurgle, Sigil of Corrpution, Power Axe, & Burning Brand of Skalathrax (Warlord) 150pts

TROOPS:
(7) Plague Marines w/Dedicated Rhino, Dirge Caster, (2) Melta-Guns, Champion has Power Axe 243pts
(7) Plague Marines w/Dedicated Rhino, Dirge Caster, (2) Melta-Guns, Champion has Power Axe 243pts
(5) Chaos Space Marines Champion has Combi-Boltgun 78pts

FORTIFICATION:
Aegis Defense Lines w/Quad Gun 100pts

ELITE:
(3) Chaos Terminators w/3x Combi-Melta and 3x Power Axe 112pts

FAST ATTACK:
Helldrake w/Baleflamer 170pts
Helldrake w/Baleflamer 170pts

HEAVY SUPPORT:
(2) Obliterators w/Mark of Nurgle 152pts
(2) Obliterators w/Mark of Nurgle 152pts


*The list deals with Hordes, Mech, Power-Armor, Gun Lines, Monstrous Creatures, and even 2+ Armor about equally, but obviously extreme lists (i.e. those weighted toward one thing) must be fought to emphasize the positive. Deathwing and other builds which are essentially all Terminator Armor must be handled gingerly since there are only a few key components which force invulnerable saves. Likewise, there are only three scoring units unless a scenario making Fast Attack or Heavy Support scoring comes up.

The emphasis, as with the earlier iteration of this list, is on option and changing up how it fights to adapt to the different style of lists. My original version had three 2-Man Obliterator Squads and one less Helldrake (along with misc. points here and there in Wargear). Playtesting simply revealed that more often than not, my Obliterators didn't always have a good target to fire upon when split up into the third unit. There is always a decent target for a Helldrake whether it is by Vector Strike or Baleflamer. More importantly the 2nd Flyer ensure that I will have at least one survive coming in against strong Skyfire/Interceptor options available to Imperial Guard and Tau.

A third Helldrake simply becomes an issue of redundancy and hobbles the list against certain builds, most obvious when fighting lots of Terminators. In short, you need the Obliterators to support the Daemon Prince w/Black Mace against 2+ spam. As with any battle, it comes down to using the right tools in the right combinations against the right targets. My gut reaction was to avoid more than one Helldrake, but I have now tried all three version, i.e. one, two, and three of them in a list. To reference the "Three Bears," only one was just right (from an all comers) point of view and it was two.

*The basic CSM Champion has a Combi-Boltgun only because I had three points left over to spend and that was the only thing I could find that it could be spent on without going over. :)

[Power Klawz]

I don't understand the meltaguns in the plaguemarine squads. Your prince, termicide unit and obliterators are plenty of anti-armor. Your helldrakes can vector strike rear armors in a pinch too, I think you'd be better served with plasma.

Other than that it looks like a really nice list that might even include the barest whiff of fluff.

I pretty much hate the aegis defense line though. You see it in every single list as though it automagically makes it an "all comers list" by its merest inclusion. There are things in your army that will accomplish the same thing without being a building I guess, but its everyone's darling so I guess there's no helping it.

I'd save the 100 points and maybe add a few more marines to the basic marine squad, toss some more nurgle marks around too.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't understand the meltaguns in the plaguemarine squads. Your prince, termicide unit and obliterators are plenty of anti-armor. Your helldrakes can vector strike rear armors in a pinch too, I think you'd be better served with plasma.

I've tried both and I always come back to Melta-Guns. My Daemon Prince is for hitting things that come out of the vehicles I crack. In the end, Plasma would give me a total of two extra shots (and the chance of getting hot) per unit. This assumes I am within 12" of the kinds of units against spamming the Plasma is required. In general, I don't take my PM anywhere near Terminators by choice. It comes down to how/why it gets used. The Melta-Guns remain assault, never get hot, and provide the armor cracking. The Plasma really only has one use and it isn't a use I want to be in a position to use. Long story short, I find the Melta gives me a more reliable list of options. I understand the mindset of the Plasma loadout, but I just don't find the two extra shots offset the loss of options.


Other than that it looks like a really nice list that might even include the barest whiff of fluff.

I would like to think it is more than the barest whiff. :)


I pretty much hate the aegis defense line though. You see it in every single list as though it automagically makes it an "all comers list" by its merest inclusion. There are things in your army that will accomplish the same thing without being a building I guess, but its everyone's darling so I guess there's no helping it.

There are several reasons for this, particularly for a CSM player. I like being able to start my Daemon Prince on the table with greater peace of mind regardless of what terrain is out there. Against everyone but Tau I'm looking at a 2+ Cover save should I go second. The Quad Gun is, without a doubt, one of the most useful and reliable weapons you can get. The Fortification doesn't ever give up a Killpoint in those scenarios where it matters. Worst case scenario, some of the nastiest of your opponent's shooting is wasted for a round trying to silence that gun before their air support comes in. Factor in the ephemeral benefit of placing some rough terrain opponents may have to pass through you are getting a lot of bang for your buck. I don't think the Aegis makes my list All Comers, but it certainly helps add to my AA power. It is also useful against Monstrous Creatures, Light Mech, just plain shooting, and unlike artillery, it is a gun emplacement and CAN overwatch. Being twin-linked and firing four times, it does add a nice chance of an extra hit or two to slow down/stop a mid to long range assault.


I'd save the 100 points and maybe add a few more marines to the basic marine squad, toss some more nurgle marks around too.

I agree that having another scoring unit would be nice, but so far I haven't actually needed it as long as I play to my strengths. The Mark of Nurgle added to my Termicide unit would be unlikely to yield a huge return. They are looked at as a suicide unit for a reason. The basic CSM unit would be nice with the Mark of Nurgle but the weapons able to hit them from the other side of the board are always high enough STR that it wouldn't matter. By the time they are getting hit by the kind of fire it matters most against, the battle is already trending away from me.

[Power Klawz]

Oh no, I totally get why you'd take the defense line. It offers a lot of benefit for 100 points. I just hate that it exists basically.

[Caitsidhe]

Oh no, I totally get why you'd take the defense line. It offers a lot of benefit for 100 points. I just hate that it exists basically.

I would rather they had given me the option to buy an upgrade for Skyfire and another for Interceptor for both my Obliterators and my Havocs. But we have to make do. My AA is made up of (and in effective order) Quad Gun, Twin-Linked Obliterator Weaponry, and Vector Strikes. This list can fight a flying circus but if they have really gone overboard on the planes it will be hard. My other All Comer List which is CSM/IG (using Sabres) is far more effective against them.

[Power Klawz]

I don't know why people aren't all about the hades autocannon toting drakes for anti air. It really is an amazing dogfight weapon, especially when you daemonforge it. One of these days I'm going to start a CSM army and rock that pilot ace dragon so hard.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't know why people aren't all about the hades autocannon toting drakes for anti air. It really is an amazing dogfight weapon, especially when you daemonforge it. One of these days I'm going to start a CSM army and rock that pilot ace dragon so hard.

Utility. This Edition the gun is king and the gun line is ubiquitous. With the release of the Tau recently, this effect has just been given steroids. A Torrent Flamer, particularly high strength deals with the spammed shooting units which are becoming part and parcel to the most competitive lists. The Hades Autocannon has too narrow a use. Most scenarios are won by scoring units accomplishing something or Killpoints. The Baleflamer can take out entire units with ease. It is all about bang for your buck.

Moreover, the BS of the Helldrake is only three which further limits the performance of the Autocannon. I encourage you to try it out, the CSM thing, but I think you will find over the course of play that such a loadout doesn't give you even twenty percent the return of a Baleflamer.

[Learn2Eel]

I have to agree with Caitsidhe. I've played dozens or more games with Heldrakes and the Baleflamer is hands down the best weapon in the game for clearing scoring units out - against Necrons, it is also invaluable to wipe out their units and deny them Reanimation Protocols, especially when combined with the Daemonforge.

[Power Klawz]

I guess I'm not really arguing that the baleflamer isn't the superior weapon, just that it doesn't do a particular job that the autocannon does do quite well. So if you're going to spam drakes and you're worried about enemy air, why not put an autocannon on one of them? I don't generally approach these sorts of things from an "all comers, WAAC" perspective though.

[Caitsidhe]

I guess I'm not really arguing that the baleflamer isn't the superior weapon, just that it doesn't do a particular job that the autocannon does do quite well. So if you're going to spam drakes and you're worried about enemy air, why not put an autocannon on one of them? I don't generally approach these sorts of things from an "all comers, WAAC" perspective though.

<chuckles> All Comer, i.e. competitive doesn't automatically equate to WAAC in perspective. I don't know if I would call two Helldrakes spamming them either, more of a midway point of utility without trying to build a one-trick pony. The reason I don't think putting an Autocannon in is a good buy is simple. I'm not going to pay 170pts for a BS-3 Autocannon and a D3+1 STR-7 Vector Strike. The use of the plane is just too narrow. There are cheaper options for AA that give you far more. Hell for that cost I could bring in a tiny allied detachment with two Sabre Batteries (gaining scoring units to boot).

[Blenderovski]

Nice list! I hear what Caitsidhe is saying about the Baleflamer also... The whole "Daemons have WS3" thing is exceptionally annoying, so template weapons are a thing of joy when you're able to use them. It's a written law when you have a cool unit such as a Heldrake, that you will ALWAYS roll 2's and 1's to undermine them...