Counterfire Defence System and Drone Controller

[Nabterayl]

Hey guys, can I get some opinions on whether the Counterfire Defence System works with Drone Controllers? Although it hasn't actually come up my group tends to value my opinion on rules disputes, and in this case I am honestly not sure what my opinion is.

The CDS says, "A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1."

The drone controller says, in relevant part, "All Gun Drones, Marker Drones and Sniper Drones in the same unit as a model with a drone controller use the bearer's Ballistic Skill instead of their own."

So suppose a suit has both a CDS and a DC. Do all gun drones, marker drones, and sniper drones in that suit's unit fire Overwatch at BS2, or BS1?

[Wildeybeast]

It's a hard one. I'd be inclined to read it as the controllers BS is 2 when he fires overwatch and since shots are simultaneous, so are the drones. I'd be happy to listen to arguments from the other side though, it's so hard to tell from the wording. This is why the Warhammer system of 'to hit' modifiers is superior. ;)

[Sly]

It's BS2.

1: you use the Controller's Ballistic Skill. Does the Controller's Ballistic Skill affect his snap shots? No. Regardless of his BS, he fires Snap Shots at BS1.
2: therefore, whether the Drone uses its normal BS of 2, or the Controller's 3 or 5, it still fires snap shots at BS1.
3: In the case of Overwatch specifically, it fires snap shots at BS2 rather than BS1.

Remember: the BS of the unit is used for normal shooting. When firing Snap Shots, this is overridden to a BS of 1, regardless of the original value. So no matter how you affect the original value, it gets modified to 1. After this, you may add specific situational modifiers like Counterfire Defense System or Markerlight counters. But you start all Snap Shots with a BS of 1 regardless of the original BS (other than specific rules that say you may fire Snap Shots at normal BS, in which case changing the base BS would make a difference).

[Magpie]

I'd say the drones stay at BS 1

Snap Shots: "If a model is forced to make snap shots its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purposes of those shots"

So that is a change of the model's ballistic skill not the BS of the shot. In a similar manner to an assault phase rule saying "the model counts as Initiative 1" as opposed to "the model attacks at Initiative Step 1"

The Counter Fire System says it fires Overwatch at BS2 so again it is the BS of the unit, not the shot itself and that BS is conferred on the drones without reservation by the Drone Controller.

You could look at it the other way and say that regardless of what BS is inherited from the drone controller they are still firing snap shots but I don't think so. The drone controller is "always on" and the BS of the controller is set at 2 for for overwatch so when resolving the Overwatch from the drones you go.

"Ok firing overwatch; BS 2 for this guy with the Counter fire, BS1 for the drones but they have a controller link so they get the BS2"

[DarkLink]

After thinking about it, as I read it the confusion comes from the order of modifiers. Normally, being a set modifier, snap fire superceds everything so you're stuck at BS1. The Counter Fire System doesn't say it extends its bonus to the Drones, however the Drones get to use the Commander's BS. So the question is, what type of modifier does that count as? Seems to me that the Drones using the Commander's BS is also a set modifier, since you're replacing the Drone's BS with that of the Commander's, whatever it happens to be.

So basically we have two contradictory set modifiers, one at BS 1 and one at BS 2.

[Magpie]

So basically we have two contradictory set modifiers, one at BS 1 and one at BS 2.

Problem is, I don't think that Snap Shot BS is a modifier, otherwise markerlights wouldn't work.

I think it is just "your BS is 1" (or 2) and it gets modified from there.

[Tynskel]

No, it does not apply to drones.
reasoning: Snap Shots are ALWAYS BS1, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Counter Defense Fire does not explicitly state that it applies to the drone controller.

[DarkLink]

Snap Shots are a set modifier. Anything that changes your BS is a modifier. There's nothing that requires a footnote saying 'btw, this here is a modifier so use the rules for modifiers to figure out how this works'. If it changes a characteristic, it's a modifier. Since Snap Shots sets your BS to 1, it's a set modifier.

Markerlights normally wouldn't work (you normally apply additive modifiers before set modifiers), except they explicitly say that you get to apply markerlight bonuses when taking Snap Shots.

[Tynskel]

Snap Shots are a set modifier. Anything that changes your BS is a modifier. There's nothing that requires a footnote saying 'btw, this here is a modifier so use the rules for modifiers to figure out how this works'. If it changes a characteristic, it's a modifier. Since Snap Shots sets your BS to 1, it's a set modifier.

Markerlights normally wouldn't work (you normally apply additive modifiers before set modifiers), except they explicitly say that you get to apply markerlight bonuses when taking Snap Shots.

Yes it is a set modifier, however, it is an 'ultimate' set modifier. Check out FAQs. Unless the Snap Fire rules is explicitly addressed, you cannot adjust the BS1.

[DarkLink]

If the FAQs say that Snap Shots are the set modifier to trump all set modifiers, then there's the answer.

[Nabterayl]

Check out FAQs.
Which ones are you thinking of? Citations, man!

[Magpie]

If the FAQs say that Snap Shots are the set modifier to trump all set modifiers, then there's the answer.

The FAQ does say that tau markerlights, Signum and Sgt Tellion etc cannot alter the BS 1 of a snap shot but then we see that Tau markerlights can so the FAQ is somewhat out of date now. Granted Markerlights are granted a specific exception but then again the counter fire is a specific exception too.

The thing is the Command Link makes a simple direct statement, drones use the BS of the owner of the command link. No limiting qualification is made so there for we can only assume that that applies to all circumstances.

However from a game play perspective I'd say you have to not allow it because of a piece of cheese I've just thought of. When you fire overwatch your BS is 1 (or 2 in this case) so what is your BS if you DON'T fire Overwatch ? It would be its normal BS. So the best plan would be for the Drone Controller to not fire at all and make all of his Drones BS 3,4,5 or whatever he is.

Having said that it is one of those things that could go either way and equal cases can be presented to support either so in those cases I take the "path of least abuse" and the sentence above means I am in the "doesn't work" camp.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, there are numerous FAQs that state this. The Taucodex explicitly states what gets modified in Snap Fire: in this case, it is the individual model, not the unit, that may use BS2 for Snap Fire.

There is nothing explicit that states that more than the individual model gains BS2. The Drone Controller is a different piece of war gear.

[Nabterayl]

Thanks for all your replies, guys. In case it's of interest to anybody, my current conclusion is that a drone controller doesn't "port over" the counterfire defense system. My reasoning is this:

Upon checking the rules again, I note that a model firing Snap Shots' "Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" (p 13). Thus, it is not the case that a model with a CDS changes to BS1 when firing Overwatch, and then increases to BS2 thanks to the CDS. Its BS remains unchanged at all times, and it fires Overwatch as if it were BS1 (as if it were BS2, thanks to the CDS). Since the CDS model's BS is not changed, the drone controller is simply inapplicable.

[Magpie]

Thanks for all your replies, guys. In case it's of interest to anybody, my current conclusion is that a drone controller doesn't "port over" the counterfire defense system. My reasoning is this:

Upon checking the rules again, I note that a model firing Snap Shots' "Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" (p 13). Thus, it is not the case that a model with a CDS changes to BS1 when firing Overwatch, and then increases to BS2 thanks to the CDS. Its BS remains unchanged at all times, and it fires Overwatch as if it were BS1 (as if it were BS2, thanks to the CDS). Since the CDS model's BS is not changed, the drone controller is simply inapplicable.

Why does the BS not changing make the Drone Controller inapplicable? Wouldn't it just mean that the Drones would get the unaltered BS?

[Nabterayl]

Why does the BS not changing make the Drone Controller inapplicable? Wouldn't it just mean that the Drones would get the unaltered BS?
Yes, it does. So for instance, if the drone controller model is BS5, the drones in his units can fire at BS5. And just like all BS5 models, they fire Overwatch counting their BS as 1.

[Magpie]

Yes, it does. So for instance, if the drone controller model is BS5, the drones in his units can fire at BS5. And just like all BS5 models, they fire Overwatch counting their BS as 1.

Yep so what that really means is that the fixed value BS from the Drone Controller is seen to be over ridden by the Fixed value from the Overwatch, which seems more logical to my mind.

[Nabterayl]

Yep so what that really means is that the fixed value BS from the Drone Controller is seen to be over ridden by the Fixed value from the Overwatch, which seems more logical to my mind.
If that gets you to the same conclusion I don't have a problem with it, but to me, the point is that Overwatch doesn't modify Ballistic Skill at all.

I have a Ballistic Skill of 5.
I choose to fire Overwatch. I still have a Ballistic Skill of 5.
I roll to hit for my Overwatch. The Overwatch rule tells me to ignore my Ballistic Skill (which is still 5) and roll as if my Ballistic Skill were 1 (which it is not).
My Counterfire Defense System, if I have one, may tell me to roll as if my Ballistic Skill were 2 (which it is not).

A drone controller just makes a drone run through those steps, except that the drone will never get to step 4 because it can't carry a CDS. If Overwatch did at any point change a model's BS, we would have to ask which overrides which and/or in what order the Overwatch, CDS, and DC modifications occur. Since Overwatch doesn't do any actual modifying, it's a moot point.