Morality of the Net List

[Night System]

Hey guys, after an experience I had last week, I have some thoughts to share.

To give a brief introduction, last weekend I was at Brighton Warlords tournament (Great Time, Highly Recommend!) with my tyranids. my first 4 games were not that great, the first 3 being draws and the 4th with my losing horribly. All against Gun Lines, as you can imagine, my gribblies did not fair amazingly well. In my 5th game, I was placed up against a young chap who was a great guy to play. However his list did not pose many challenges for me, with the main body of his force being 3 tactical squads and an assault squad.

After around half an hour of playing, the result was clear and we was the first pair to finish that round as I annihilated him. Don't get me wrong, I am not the most amazing player by any means. My list is not good at that many things, but beating standard tactical marines is one thing it really excels at, so from my point of view, it was a good match up. In our post game discussion, he asked me if I had found the list I used off the internet. I casually said no and carried on as usual but since then it has been bugging me. For reference, here is my list.

Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2x Twin Devourers - 260

Doom Of Malan'tai - Mycetic Spore - 130

Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
10 Termagaunts - 50

Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
10 Termagaunts - 50

Trygon - Toxin Sacs - 210

2 Carnifexes, 2x Twin Devourers - 380

I would call it mildly competitive, but nothing more than that. It may be my own personal bias, but I have always found that the term Net-List has always been used in a derogatory sense. In that, a good player would not need to go online to find out how to build his army, he would be able to work it out for himself. Only less able players would feel the need to go and copy another persons ideas.

So having just won my game, being asked if I had simply taken my list from somebody else I was slightly offended. The theory being that my gaming ability does not quite match up to my list. Now yes that is quite the cynical thought of me, he could of (and probably meant) that my list was good in general. But he did say that he had seen very similar lists online. I would call that a symptom of the Tyranid codex in itself; it isn't the best designed book. But I have had Tyranid armies for the past 7 years and would like to think I know how to play them quite well, and my own gaming group can confirm that I have spent the past few months finally crafting that list after many many play tests.

I learnt later, that a couple of the players at the tournament, did indeed get there lists straight off the internet. I suppose the question I am asking to the general gaming community is this:

Is copying army lists off the internet an honest way to play?
Am I as a gamer being unfair as to judge those who do?
Is my grumpiness over reacting to what otherwise may have been a fair comment?
What are your opinions on the topic in question?

[Mr Mystery]

There's nothing inherently wrong or unsporting in fielding a net list, whether or not you picked it up from the intertubes or not.

However, I feel those who only ever net list are missing out. You're fielding something you're told is hard, but will never really understand why it's so hard. Typically, they revolve more around outright power than sneaky tactics they allow, and as such, whether or not you picked it yourself or from the net, you risk being labelled a power gamer. Many will rightly not care, after all, my hobby is not your hobby, and we all get different things from it. But others might feel peer pressure to change their list, and thus their hobby, because others cannot or will not adapt their own list and tactics to counter it.

That to me is ultimately self defeating. Power gaming is not achieved with the list alone. It's more about the personality of the gamer. You can field the most rubbish list ever, and quibble over every bloody rule and measurement made, and this be an undesirable (to me) opponent, compared to a really nice and easy going gamer whose list just happens to be harder than a Gypsy's Nan.

But either way, never apologie for your hobby. Whether or not I'd want to play you again is irrelevant. Popular opinion is all too often ill informed, and the result of picking up your opinion from some bloke on the Internet who had his arse handed to him, when clearly all should know better than beating him.

Beardy is in the eye of the beholder!

[Deadlift]

Personally I don't play "net lists" as I don't enjoy the tournament setting. But my feelings on the "net list" and people who take them is why not. If you are starting a new army and want to make sure your buying whats right for you without wasteing money then fair enough. We're all reading tactica on different stuff anyway, a net list is just one step further. However copying a net list doesn't guarantee sucess. Just having the models doesn't make the player better. Only experience offers that.
However I just play with friends, we all use models we like the look of and worry about performance after. That's just us and I perfectly understand those that want to maximise performance especially if your gaming area is competative. Nobody enjoys loosing on a regular basis. Each to their own I guess.

[Anggul]

It's a bit different with Tyranids. There are only a very few good units, so most people end up with very similar armies even though they haven't just copied them off of the internet.

[imperialpower]

People play the game for different reasons if list building does not do it for you then why not take a list from the net, I think been asked if you did copy a list off the net just suggests that you have a good list worthy of been copied.

[Aegwymourn]

It's a bit different with Tyranids. There are only a very few good units, so most people end up with very similar armies even though they haven't just copied them off of the internet.

This. Tyranis terribly suffer from "Best in Slot" syndrome all over there codex. There are only a handful of ways to run a competitive list with their codex.

Secondly as Mr Mystery and Deadlift said it shouldn't really bother you one way or another if someone thinks you are net listing. Personally in a competitive environment like that net listing to me is similar to just asking a group of friends to help make a list. On my local 40k forums people are always posting their lists looking for constructive feedback to become better for our local league/playoffs. If you opponent chooses not to use a resource available to just about anyone (the internet) to help them come up with a better list then the burden is on them to play/construct a list better.

[Caitsidhe]

It doesn't matter how many of them did (or didn't ) get their lists off the internet. People gravitate toward what works. The gun is king in 6th Edition and as a result the number of gun lines is growing at an exponential rate. Even if nobody had the internet, the same thing would happen. Until they get Nids a new book you are behind the eight ball. Even when they give you a new book there is no guarantee you will get out from behind it.

It would be boring (but in synch with 6th Edition) but you can make a list which is mostly those little scoring, shooty bugs all set up for maximum shots and spam them via the mycetic. :) Volume of fire is a beast. Six units of those things each doing thirty shots does inflict some mean damage.

[Mr Mystery]

I think Caitsidhe raises an important point. The good will out.

Give a gamer a Codex, and they will soon identify the units that appeal to them. And if your local community places importance on the competitive side of things, that means units considered most efficient. As you mentioned, this was a Brighton Warlords event, and from what I understand (I'm just up the road in Tunbridge Wells) they're a competitive bunch. As such, they are likely used to net lists.

However, I am aware that sore losers will use 'net list' as the reason you beat them. Which is rude if you ask me! As covered, you need to know why the list is hard to be successful with it.

[Denzark]

When you look at morality, as per the title of the thread, you need to look at the intent of the individual. Are they a painter/modeller who fancied a change to army 'y' from army 'x', had no clue what a reasonable list was and so used a net list? I would say this is not questionable morality. If you are a beardy power WAAC geek and wanted that net list as the most distilled win to crush your opponents at some tourney, then that is questionable morality.

[gcsmith]

When you look at morality, as per the title of the thread, you need to look at the intent of the individual. Are they a painter/modeller who fancied a change to army 'y' from army 'x', had no clue what a reasonable list was and so used a net list? I would say this is not questionable morality. If you are a beardy power WAAC geek and wanted that net list as the most distilled win to crush your opponents at some tourney, then that is questionable morality.

It's hardly questionable morality to take the most powerful list you can to an event where you go to WIN! It's not a casual gaming event, it's a tournament.

[Learn2Eel]

A lot of people that start a new army often aren't sure what models they like and what would make a good army. In that sense, I don't mind net-lists, but I feel I have more....."respect", perhaps - for people that write their own competitive army lists.

[Deadlift]

It's hardly questionable morality to take the most powerful list you can to an event where you go to WIN! It's not a casual gaming event, it's a tournament.

Which is why I don't go to them, to me it's how to turn a fun game of 40k into something far to serious. I would question those types though that enjoy crushing an opponent for fun.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's a complicated situation.

On the one hand, I do think it's kind of unsporting to throw personality, style, uniqueness, fluff, and everything out the window to play the best list possible that you got off the Internet. Isn't part of the point of this game that list-building is part of the tactical acumen that you are meant to be displaying when you play?

More importantly, I feel that netlists hurt the community of the game. Netlists contribute to the feeling that my - say - Blood Angels were beaten by your - say - Imperial Guard, because the Imperial Guard have this awesome list you can make, which you found on a wesbite. The Blood Angels do not have this awesome list. Thus, I lost.

I would much prefer feel like I, Mark, was beaten by you, Robert, because you are a better player. That's an enjoyable feeling of losting, because I can still feel like if I become a better player, which is sure to happen any day now, next time I'll beat Robert. If I feel like my army lost to his army because of this awesome list... well, there's not much I can do about that except quit Blood Angels and take up Imperial Guard, is there?

Now, this problem is endemic in 40k because it isn't a very well balanced game. This isn't the be-all end-all quality of games, and I'm not trying to start a "which game is better" fight. I'm coming to this from the position of someone who likes a lot of games. That said, there are games like Infinity where I always feel like I was beaten by the guy across the table from me, and there are games like 40k where I frequently feel like I've been beaten by my opponent's list and never had a chance. This may be changing with the new round of codex releases - we'll see.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with using a netlist. I can't stop you. Furthermore, the Internet has put us in a position where the information is hard to avoid, and once you know about the netlist, how can you resist wanting to use it? Everyone likes to win, after all.

I suppose it's really a personal choice. I can't even say I wouldn't do it. If I came across a netlist for my Tau, say, that seemed fun and interesting, I'd at least give it a try. That said, it's true that netlists tend to rely on power and spamming the "best" thing in the codex, which means I'm unlikely to encounter a netlist that would appeal to me.

[Maelstorm]

For a tournament, I'll bring a competitive beat-stick list. It can be extremely un-fun to pay to get mauled while sticking with a "fluffy" list.

For all other games I take whatever I've most recently painted - to experiment and find out if synergy can be created. I don't care if my list gets tabled if I've had fun with friends and learned something new along the way. I love learning the tricks/plots/ploys from other codex armies!

[Mr Mystery]

There's also a very real downside to net listing....

The next net list from the next codex will have trumping your net list as a high consideration. And if that wasn't enough, it's highly likely your net list will suffer with each new game edition, and even more with a new codex version. Whether design studio intention, or just new toy itis is hard to say, but be prepared to have to spend more overall keeping your army up to speed than a less engineered list...

[OrksOrksOrks]

There's also a very real downside to net listing....

The next net list from the next codex will have trumping your net list as a high consideration. And if that wasn't enough, it's highly likely your net list will suffer with each new game edition, and even more with a new codex version. Whether design studio intention, or just new toy itis is hard to say, but be prepared to have to spend more overall keeping your army up to speed than a less engineered list...

Which is the advantage of making a list you like the look of, its always going to be what you want

[Learn2Eel]

There's also a very real downside to net listing....

The next net list from the next codex will have trumping your net list as a high consideration. And if that wasn't enough, it's highly likely your net list will suffer with each new game edition, and even more with a new codex version. Whether design studio intention, or just new toy itis is hard to say, but be prepared to have to spend more overall keeping your army up to speed than a less engineered list...


Which is the advantage of making a list you like the look of, its always going to be what you want

Agreed. I know a tournament player who often buys his stuff from my LGS (but rarely plays there) and it is astonishing how much stuff he will buy to stay competitive. One day, he walked in and bought something like six boxes of power-armoured Grey Knights out of the blue. At least I can say that that particular purchase has likely proven to be worthwhile!

[Chris Copeland]

Honest to God, I don't even know where to find "net lists." I am a Tyranid player who recently made the transition over to playing Dark Angels. I'd LOVE to find a spot that says, "Here. Try this. THIS is a competitive 1850 Dark Angels Deathwing build." I think my Google-fu is not that strong...

In any case, I'm not too worried about net lists... I play against whatever my buddies bring... I'll keep fiddling with my Deathwing until I get it right... Cope

[Mr Mystery]

Pretty much my take on things. For instance, I started Daemons the other month because I really liked the new models, and GD's aside, the whole range is pretty dashed spangly and new! Yet to build them all, but once I do I'll find out whether tinkering is required.

[DrLove42]

A lot of what can be said has already been said

I was there as well...I took Chaos.

A single dragon, cos i didn't want to be That Guy
I also used Spawn and Maulerfiends cos I love them

Not a netty competitve list, no DP, only one unit of Havocs....and I can midway with 2 conclusive wins, 2 very close draws and 2 very close losses.

[Wolfshade]

I think the title should be the mentality of the net list.
I may have played a net list, though not conciously so.
It is an interesting construct that we have a hobby with great options but we discover a very good army build up and that becomes spammed. I would agree that there are some options that work better than others at doing specific things, for example I think that the missile laucnher is the best option for tactical marines with their ability to frag or krak. I also bemoan those choices which are in the codex which you can't really see the use for and so never include them, like I have never found a use for shotgun scouts.

But the problem arises with net lists where they do not meet your local playing conditions. I have had problems beating my brother-in-laws nids and so posted the list I was using for some advice, one of the suggests saw putting melta bombs on every sargeant, magna grapple and replacing all special weapons with meltas. This was back in 5th where you couldn't use grenades against things other than vehicles. So a lot of the options were redundant, another replaced high (relatively) rate of fire weapons with single shot high strength again it was aimed at popping armour, something that is lacking in a nid list.

But ho-hum, there are some advantages, as has previously been mentioned, they tend to have a large turn over of models so spend quite a bit with GW, which can only be a good thing, the other advantage (possibly) is that you have a good idea of what you are going to be facing and so can counter those options with how you design your list.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the whole "Net List" thing is vastly overblown. It has become a meaningless term like "Troll" on the internet that is applied whenever someone wants to make an excuse or villify someone. A point in case is one of my own lists. I have an (1850) CSM/IG list in which I build an artillery line for Sabres anchored on a platoon and Lord Commissar. They are the allies. The rest of my army is CSM and designed around a very aggressive, board control system. I played it for about three weeks and did amazingly well with it. It caused a storm of debate behind closed doors (and my back). I even had a friend of mine (who plays Orcs and whose planes I shot down) tell me that my list was all over the internet and he didn't like net lists. I had to smile...

"Really? My list is so popular it is all over the internet?"

"Yes. I've seen it several places."

"That's funny. I follow all the sites and the only places I've seen it on the internet is where I myself have posted it."

There are other aspects of the story but it suffices to say my list has not gone viral. The only proponent of it seems to be me. :) I am never going to assume anyone just copied their list from the internet, unless they tell me that. I suspect most smart people will come to similar conclusions when they study a codex or combination of such books. I tend to assume my opponent is at least as smart as I am (however intelligent that may be). It seems all to common for most people to assume they are smarter than their opponent, or at least somehow "morally" superior. I can't tell you how little I think of the attitude.

In the end, it doesn't matter does it? You should always assume you are in for a hard fight. You do the best you can do with what you have. Even if someone is going to the internet to look for ideas, isn't the gaming community online just an extension of your friends and opponents locally? Don't you ask your friends for advice (or get it whether you ask or not) on what you should use? What would be the difference between you getting my opinion on a good list online or in person?

[Wolfshade]

I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place ;)

That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."

If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.
I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th :)) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place ;)

Preach it brother. The sooner we see the Sabre Artillery line in common use the sooner the flying circus combinations will go away for more balanced options. :) I'm considering running my list at this year's Alamo GT just to punish the flying circus.


That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."

It is interesting and kind of sad. The ONLY time I hear the words "Net List" come out of someone's mouth is when they are complaining about the butt-kicking they just received and need to scapegoat why they lost.


If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.

I tend to agree that you should go for the units that give you the most reliable bang for the buck, but I differ with Goatboy on strategy in that I think (particularly in 6th) that you also want the most options to deal with the widest variety of types of builds since you never know who you are going to pull on a particular round. As such my own most competitive "pure" CSM build only has a single Helldrake in it. I know that seems to fly in the face of net wisdom, but I simply have too many other scenarios to build for to spam three of the things. I considered two, but in the end I went to one because I truly needed the points to handle other kinds of opponents. There are still factions whose basic function is so good due to the nature of 6th Edition that spamming them is the best competitive option. This also tends to be emphasized when the army is really only good at one thing (like say Tau). However, allies still give the option of bringing in other options to build a true all comers list.


I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th :)) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.

Yep. You gravitate towards what works in the most reliable way and against the most varied threats. That is true of real military operations too. I'm never going to call someone morally bankrupt for playing the game well.

[pohanew]

I think that if you want to use a net list than so be it but in my opinion I think if you do you aren't confident in you own list making abilities for example I am terrible at making lists but I have managed to come up with a competitive list

HQ
necron overlord with warscythe and res. orb= 130 pts

royal court
necron lord with warscythe and res orb= 75 pts

troop
9 warriors= 117 pts

5 immortals with Tesla carbines = 85 pts

dedicated transport
night scythe (immortals) =100 pts

heavy support

annihilation barge with gauss cannon= 90pts

total 597 pts

this list was made for warhammer world doubles invasion 2013

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

the thing about a net list is you can have it spoon fed to you but if they don't know how to use it or the tricks that it can do most armies wont just play themselves. so you can have a very hard list but if your incompetent and don't know how to use it its just another list. i fear the veteran gamer who knows what his list can and can't do before i fear the twit with the flavor of the month.