Riptide or Crisis!?

[oink]

So, I've got in a couple (2) of games proxying a riptide in place of some Crisis suits and I'm not certain that the Riptide is performing as well as crisis suits would do.

My trouble is that coming in at around about 200pts a riptide is costing you more than a regular unit build of crisis suits (a unit of 3 suits with twin plasmas and a third weapon will come in between 150-170pts!) I'm trying to work out then why the riptide should be better because at the moment I'm seeing that the suits bring with them a much higher fire rate. If you spend the spare points to equal their cost to the riptide you can buy drones and give the suits greater wound count as well.

It may be that I'm simply too cautious with using the riptide to get the best out of it?

So, this post covers two areas;
1. I want to hear other peoples thoughts on the pros and cons of the riptide and crisis suits when compared to each other.
2. I want to hear how you have been using riptides on the battlefield and the results they are giving you.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, first of all, I don't think you want to compare the crisis and riptides to each other. They may both be elites, but they don't do the same thing.

Crisis suits are small, mobile, and relatively easy to deep strike. They can usually find terrain to hide in. They can field a wide variety of weapons, which means you can use them to fill any number of holes in your army... though the job they do best right now (IMHO) is putting AP 1 and 2 on the table, and then working as troubleshooters that can kill nearly anything that the rest of your army might struggle with (MEQ and TEQ, mostly - the rest of our codex can kill GEQ like it's going out of style). While they're durable by Tau standards - 3+ armor, two wounds, access to 4++ - they're still T3. They'll still fold in hand-to-hand combat with anything, and they'll still go down real fast if anyone manages to put plasma or missile wounds on them.

To use crisis suits effectively, you need to make sure you stack the deck. Crisis suits may be one of the best things the Tau codex has to offer, but do not let them get into a fair fight. Give them something they can use at longish range - 24'' to 36'' or so - and maybe something that works well close up, too, so they can whittle their target down while dancing around in cover, then move in for the kill when you're sure you can wipe the target out. That, or give them backup. I think that the ideal partner for a crisis team is a squad of pathfinders with three rail rifles, in a devilfish, with a recon drone. The recon drone means that the crisis suits won't scatter when they arrive, the rail rifles help the crisis suits finish what they start (but have the range to give the pathfinders, themselves, the chance to maybe survive the exchange), and the devilfish means that the crisis have somewhere to hide when they're done unloading their shots.

I guess the point I'm making is that crisis suits excel at hit-and-run tactics and do best when extensively supported with markerlights, other units, and something to make deep striking more reliable.

Riptide, on the other hand, is a huge fire magnet. It's a beast to kill, with a ton of wounds and the option to field two extra ablative wounds in the form of missile drones with 4++ saves, a really good toughness, and an incredible invulnerable save (especially if you're willing to nova charge - and if you aren't willing to nova charge at every opportunity, why are you bothering to use a riptide?). The riptide is quite capable of tearing things up completely unsupported... but it has very little tactical versatility, aside from that. It's a pain to hide behind terrain, 2d6'' assault moves don't help a lot when your base is the size of my hand, and your opponent is scared of it and wants to kill it right now. Frankly, the riptide's job is to die, because if your opponent is willing to pour enough fire into the thing to end it, he's ignoring your crisis suits and stealth suits and pathfinders and that hammerhead over there and all your other toys. And alternately, if he ignores your riptide, it will tear him apart.

So, if you aren't getting enough out of your riptide, probably it's because you aren't playing aggressively enough. The riptide doesn't need support - except for some markerlights, because you know, the only thing better than Heavy 12 Rending is Heavy 12 Rending and BS 5 that Ignores Cover. Or whatever. But it doesn't even really need that. Play your riptide balls out - I mean, don't be stupid, it's still a Tau model, but be aggressive. Dare your opponent to come and get it while your more mobile units harass his flanks and then hide in cover.

Without looking at your entire list, I'd also wonder if you're kitting out the riptide correctly.

Unlike crisis suits, the riptide only has two main weapon options: big huge scary ion gun that puts out a decent number of shots with high Strength and low AP or an ordnance blast to wreck heavy vehicles or a giganormous burst cannon with enough shots to make an Ork blob run off the board. You need to look at your list very carefully before you decide which gun the riptide needs.

Can you deal with MEQ and TEQ? Do you have sources of AP 1 and 2? Are you playing a Tau Toys Today list, but lack boots on the table? Give your riptide the heavy burst cannon and laugh as hordes are whittled down to your own size. Do you have tons of fire warriors and gun drones? Do you have boots on the table, with pulse rifles and carbines, and also some Kroot? Are you afraid of high AV vehicles and armor saves better than 4+? Bring the ion cannon and watch those land raiders and terminator squads evaporate like a bad dream. If you chose wrong, though, you are leaving a huge, riptide-shaped hole in your army list.

[ElectricPaladin]

Give them something they can use at longish range - 24'' to 36'' or so - and maybe something that works well close up, too, so they can whittle their target down while dancing around in cover, then move in for the kill when you're sure you can wipe the target out.

This, by the way, is why I favor the helios configuration at the moment. That's a fusion blaster and a plasma rifle (and some neat support systems). That means that each suit can deliver one 6/2 shot at 24'', that plus an 8/1 shot at 18'', and an additional 6/2 shot at 12'' (for a total of three MEQ and TEQ killing shots at closest range). This gives the crisis team a lot of tactical flexibility. They can hang back in the 24'' - 30'' range (thanks to jump-shoot-jump and ignoring terrain when they move) and plink away at their target, or get a little closer and take two shots, or go all out, jump in to 12'' range (which is dangerously close to assault range) and blast away.

[SonicPara]

I'm planning on using one Riptide, and either two Crisis Teams or one Crisis Team and one Stealth Team. Riptide is the big bad gap filler that, especially armed with the Ion Accelerator, can jump around the field supporting your forces where necessary.

Crisis Teams are highly customizeable but highly specialized units usually built with a set purpose. Stealth can be used in several ways as sneaky denial and anti-infantry devils or stealthy markerlights.


This, by the way, is why I favor the helios configuration at the moment. That's a fusion blaster and a plasma rifle (and some neat support systems). That means that each suit can deliver one 6/2 shot at 24'', that plus an 8/1 shot at 18'', and an additional 6/2 shot at 12'' (for a total of three MEQ and TEQ killing shots at closest range). This gives the crisis team a lot of tactical flexibility. They can hang back in the 24'' - 30'' range (thanks to jump-shoot-jump and ignoring terrain when they move) and plink away at their target, or get a little closer and take two shots, or go all out, jump in to 12'' range (which is dangerously close to assault range) and blast away.


Yeah, Helios are really strong at the moment. I'm thinking of giving each one the Advanced Targeting system. It is the cheapest support system AND turns every Helios suit into an absolute terror as they stand a chance at singling out someone important with precision shots. I'm currently considering a unit of three Helios with ATS and Shadowsun (who brings her own meaning she lands precision shots on a 5+) for a maximum of six S6/AP2 and five S8/AP1 shots that ALL have a chance at precision shots. If you go the whole game targeting vehicles with the unit then oh well, it was only 9 points (Shadowsun's is free) and you had the added ability if you needed it. If you engage infantry with the unit you get on average one S6/AP2 and 0.5 S8/AP1 precision shots out of the Helios team every full salvo and one S8/AP1 precision shot out of Shadowsun. What the unit lacks in rate of fire, it makes up for in its ability to punch through the meat-shields and melt away key models.

[gcsmith]

What I like about the riptide is that it's a very good unit for line breaking, with 360 LOS and a 72" range weapon. Give it inteceptor and watch as enemy cries when it destroys things coming into ur back field as well.

[oink]

Thanks for the responses so far.

@ eletricpaladin
You make really good points, I do want to clarify that I do understand that the two units are covering different tasks. My comparison though is mainly down to the fact the riptide eats points that could be pushed into a crisis team - and because those teams are so customisable there is likely to be a set up that can do what the riptide can do more or less. For now though, I want to stay away from making this discussion too personal and about how my army uses the riptide. However, if you are interested, I'd be happy to pm you my army list for more focussed advice.

I also agree that you are probably right, I have been using the riptide very timidly. I'm generally a very conservative player so I will need to undergo something of a makeover in order to get the most out of this new unit.

I would ask you though, if you think spending 250pts on a soaking unit is worth it... or more to the point, at what game level do you consider it worth it!?

also @ sonicpara

I third the point, helios teams are pretty scary these days. But you might be interested to hear that, when targetting infantry the burst cannon is now more effective than the fusion blaster - EVEN against TEQ! Indeed, plasma + burst set up is well worth considering these days (and it wasn't too bad before anyway).

[SonicPara]

Just a note, the Riptide is NOT fearless. This means that purchasing those expensive shielded missile drones is opening yourself up for morale checks whenever one of them gets blown out of the sky. In my opinion, ignore the drones and, if you must spend the points on the Riptide, go for something like Interceptor and Skyfire. The Riptide should probably ALWAYS have interceptor due to the aforementioned potency of 360 degree line of sight on a tall model but combo this with the Ion Accelerator (5 points for a more flexible weapon that also is less prone to Gets Hot rules due to less dice rolling? automatic upgrade!) and you can blast pretty much anything coming on from reserve in any fashion; at this point the Riptide is only at 190 points. If you are light on anti-air but have points to burn, throw 20 more points on it and give it skyfire allowing you to use that flexible Ion Accelerator to fire its standard mode for a bunch of S7/AP2 shots and saving the Nova Charge for double firing your smart missile system (skyfire, 30" range, ignores cover so no jink) at the flyer at full BS due to skyfire.

TL,DR: Don't spend the points on the drones and instead use the points elsewhere or invest them in to strong support systems for the Riptide like interceptor and skyfire. Also, avoid the Heavy Burst Cannon if you ever plan on nova-charging your weapons. Gets Hot on a Heavy 12 weapon? Averages say you never take damage due to your 2+ armor save but why tempt fate when you can get the vastly superior Ion Accelerator for only 5 points?

[ElectricPaladin]

Just a note, the Riptide is NOT fearless. This means that purchasing those expensive shielded missile drones is opening yourself up for morale checks whenever one of them gets blown out of the sky. In my opinion, ignore the drones and, if you must spend the points on the Riptide, go for something like Interceptor and Skyfire.

I don't know. On the other hand, missile pods are pretty tasty and you're basically buying the riptide extra wounds. Also, don't forget, with its mobility, you kind of want it to fall back after an exchange of fire that manages to put a wound on it. So, the riptide falls back... which means that your opponent is less likely to be able to shoot it with the rest of his army. Then, between its jet pack and the long range of all its serious weapons, it can just leap back into the fray.


The Riptide should probably ALWAYS have interceptor due to the aforementioned potency of 360 degree line of sight on a tall model but combo this with the Ion Accelerator...

I agree with this entirely. Interceptor - and Skyfire, for that matter - are very good rules to put on the riptide.

However, I think that there is a time and a place for the heavy burst cannon. If your meta is full of a lot of Orks or 'Nids, for example, or if the rest of your army is loaded up on ion weapons and railguns and other big toys. You need something that can unload a ton of shots into light infantry.


I would ask you though, if you think spending 250pts on a soaking unit is worth it... or more to the point, at what game level do you consider it worth it!?

I'd say a single riptide starts being worth it at 1500 points, and really comes into its own at 1850. Lower than 1500 and your list will start to look like "riptide and friends," and while riptide is really good, it's not quite broken enough for that to be a viable list. Also we don't want people to start hating on the Tau like they do the Blood Angels (Mephiston and friends) or the Grey Knights (everything)... then they won't join our empire!

[Learn2Eel]

So, first of all, I don't think you want to compare the crisis and riptides to each other. They may both be elites, but they don't do the same thing.

Crisis suits are small, mobile, and relatively easy to deep strike. They can usually find terrain to hide in. They can field a wide variety of weapons, which means you can use them to fill any number of holes in your army... though the job they do best right now (IMHO) is putting AP 1 and 2 on the table, and then working as troubleshooters that can kill nearly anything that the rest of your army might struggle with (MEQ and TEQ, mostly - the rest of our codex can kill GEQ like it's going out of style). While they're durable by Tau standards - 3+ armor, two wounds, access to 4++ - they're still T3. They'll still fold in hand-to-hand combat with anything, and they'll still go down real fast if anyone manages to put plasma or missile wounds on them.

To use crisis suits effectively, you need to make sure you stack the deck. Crisis suits may be one of the best things the Tau codex has to offer, but do not let them get into a fair fight. Give them something they can use at longish range - 24'' to 36'' or so - and maybe something that works well close up, too, so they can whittle their target down while dancing around in cover, then move in for the kill when you're sure you can wipe the target out. That, or give them backup. I think that the ideal partner for a crisis team is a squad of pathfinders with three rail rifles, in a devilfish, with a recon drone. The recon drone means that the crisis suits won't scatter when they arrive, the rail rifles help the crisis suits finish what they start (but have the range to give the pathfinders, themselves, the chance to maybe survive the exchange), and the devilfish means that the crisis have somewhere to hide when they're done unloading their shots.

I guess the point I'm making is that crisis suits excel at hit-and-run tactics and do best when extensively supported with markerlights, other units, and something to make deep striking more reliable.

Riptide, on the other hand, is a huge fire magnet. It's a beast to kill, with a ton of wounds and the option to field two extra ablative wounds in the form of missile drones with 4++ saves, a really good toughness, and an incredible invulnerable save (especially if you're willing to nova charge - and if you aren't willing to nova charge at every opportunity, why are you bothering to use a riptide?). The riptide is quite capable of tearing things up completely unsupported... but it has very little tactical versatility, aside from that. It's a pain to hide behind terrain, 2d6'' assault moves don't help a lot when your base is the size of my hand, and your opponent is scared of it and wants to kill it right now. Frankly, the riptide's job is to die, because if your opponent is willing to pour enough fire into the thing to end it, he's ignoring your crisis suits and stealth suits and pathfinders and that hammerhead over there and all your other toys. And alternately, if he ignores your riptide, it will tear him apart.

So, if you aren't getting enough out of your riptide, probably it's because you aren't playing aggressively enough. The riptide doesn't need support - except for some markerlights, because you know, the only thing better than Heavy 12 Rending is Heavy 12 Rending and BS 5 that Ignores Cover. Or whatever. But it doesn't even really need that. Play your riptide balls out - I mean, don't be stupid, it's still a Tau model, but be aggressive. Dare your opponent to come and get it while your more mobile units harass his flanks and then hide in cover.

Without looking at your entire list, I'd also wonder if you're kitting out the riptide correctly.

Unlike crisis suits, the riptide only has two main weapon options: big huge scary ion gun that puts out a decent number of shots with high Strength and low AP or an ordnance blast to wreck heavy vehicles or a giganormous burst cannon with enough shots to make an Ork blob run off the board. You need to look at your list very carefully before you decide which gun the riptide needs.

Can you deal with MEQ and TEQ? Do you have sources of AP 1 and 2? Are you playing a Tau Toys Today list, but lack boots on the table? Give your riptide the heavy burst cannon and laugh as hordes are whittled down to your own size. Do you have tons of fire warriors and gun drones? Do you have boots on the table, with pulse rifles and carbines, and also some Kroot? Are you afraid of high AV vehicles and armor saves better than 4+? Bring the ion cannon and watch those land raiders and terminator squads evaporate like a bad dream. If you chose wrong, though, you are leaving a huge, riptide-shaped hole in your army list.

Just a note, Crisis Suits are Toughness four, not three.

Aside from that, good post, though I think the Riptide benefits the most from the Ion Accelerator, particularly on a standard sized board. On a 6x4, given its height and Night Vision in its basic gear, it can literally shoot across the board and annihilate entire squads with pretty resounding success. I wouldn't use it against Land Raiders though; first the Nova Charge, then the Overheart, then you need to roll a 6 on two dice and hope it doesn't get a cover save. I would go for AV13 maximum with the Ion Accelerator unless I am desperate, honestly.

The Heavy Burst Cannon isn't bad, but it eats up Markerlights if you want it to be worthwhile, and even then, the Ion Accelerator wins hands down on sheer versatility and range.

I've used the Riptide quite a bit so far and it is the perfect "anchor" unit, in the sense that it is an odd unit out and draws massive amounts of attention. I've only played against Necrons so far - a tough enemy - but it has made its points back in each game and soaked up entire armies' worth of firepower and lived to tell the tale. Many (including myself, sometimes) forget that it is a Jetpack unit, and thus it can be used as a pretty nasty baiting unit - just be sure not to gamble too much, as the lack of Fearless and low Initiative make it prime bait for Sweeping Advances.

[Panxer]

I'm with Paladin, they do two different things and should be used in different circumstances. I use the riptide as a hammer rather than a scalpal. Its one of only 2 T5 units the Tau can field and should be used accordingly:
Riptide is: 1. a bullet magnet that looks scarier than he really is. Yes, he's super tough and would be better used as a lure to draw fire while other more mobile units move in a make more effective strikes against the enemy. 2. Mobile and could be used as a deep striking Oh SHEIZ unit on the back end while the enemy is advancing drop this guy on their back end and see how they react, I bet it'll be hilarious. 3. Doesn't put out the shots that a squad of XV8's have, but has better ranged anti-tank/ anti- TEQ instead 4. Is nice to have just in case. 5. Cannot be killed by instant death. 5. Can fulfill dual purpose and can act as a super mobile Ion-head Tank, thus opening up one of your heavy slots for something else of your choosing.

XV8 units used in concert are: 1. Death by a thousand cuts 2. 6 wounds with all kinds of weapons and options that are more customizable than the Riptide 3. a more efficient use of points (as far as shot output) 4. Can be killed by instant death :(

IMO METT-C (Mission, Enemy Forces, Time to complete the mission, Terrain Associated, Cover Available) should decide what you use, when, where, and why...