Big Winners and Big Losers of the Tau Codex

[ElectricPaladin]

Let's discuss.

IMHO:

Big Winners
• The entire HQ section, which gained two great special characters, plus Aun'shi coming back. Plus all ethereals (including the Aun'va) being updated and made useful. Plus an entire new, cheap, infantry-focused HQ. Seriously, everyone should own a cadre fireblade, if just for use in small games.
• Firewarriors, who got cheaper and gained photon grenades standard.
• Pathfinders - possibly the biggest winners, IMO. New options, new weapons, special drones, and no more mandatory devilfish.
• Broadsides, who got special drones and new gun options.
• Sky rays, who have a new purpose in anti-air fire.
• Sniper drone teams, who are no longer unutterably cr@ppy.
• Ionheads - and, more broadly, the entire category of ion weaponry - which can now be used to pop heavy infantry, light vehicles, and monstrous creatures, making them a viable choice in many environments.
• Kroot may have lost something in terms of stats, but gained utility as infiltrating snipers. Also, krootox no longer gimp the unit, which is awesome.

Big Losers
• XV8 Bodyguard, with their unit size dropped to two.
• Stingwings got marginally better with the addition of Hit & Run, which makes them more useful as close-range harassers, but neither their gun nor their close combat weaponry (or skills) makes them useful. If their guns had become Assault 2 or 3, or they had power weapons, or something...
• Piranhas. With the advent of the Age of Plasma, these guys got even easier to kill. Their lack of long-range weaponry means that they have to get in too close to survive most exchanges. Worst of all, they no longer really function quite as well as mobile seeker platforms, thanks to the changes in seeker missiles.

Big Nothing
• Stealth teams lost the option to take a lot of stealthed gun drones, which kind of kills stealth bomb. That said, the boost to burst cannons keeps them useful, but only barely.

[Power Klawz]

I'd probably place broadsides in the big nothing column. The new options are pretty kewl, but losing twin linked strength 10 badassery has got to count for something. The ability to take skyfire really doesn't make up for the loss, while I wouldn't call it a net loss they definitely did not gain overall either.

Kroot also vie for a slot in the break even column. I don't really know how to feel about the loss of close combat capability, but given the shift in the meta towards shooting primacy you may have a point. Losing close combat utility FEELS like a nerf, but when you consider that what they've become is probably a lot better in the context of the game it probably isn't.

Saying that the stingwings lost something is also controversial. They got longer range on their guns and can move through cover (not sure if they could do that last edition.)

They make great mid range harassment/killers and with their mobility they can get out of Dodge rather quickly. Even if you hang around too long and get charge by something they can't be pinned down for too long (if they survive) since they can just jump out of combat and spray more ap3 hate next turn. All in all I'd say that they might not be the best unit ever, but they still gained considerably and certainly didn't lose anything.

Also didn't they get an armor buff? I think they used to be armor 5+ (which maid them a laughably ironic MEQ killer since bolter fire would wreck them faster than their guns could wreck space marines due to rate of fire.) and are now equivalent to fire warriors with a 4+, making them substantially better at the task of mowing down MEQ and not getting comically wiped by the inevitable return fire.

[DWest]

I would have to say, from the perspective of a player who went against Tau regularly, the drop from S10 to S8 on Broadsides is a buff for them, and I say this because the XV88 is still dangerous at S8, but they're not as big of a psychological threat now, which makes them less likely to get focus-fired to pieces turn 1.

[Caitsidhe]

I would have to say, from the perspective of a player who went against Tau regularly, the drop from S10 to S8 on Broadsides is a buff for them, and I say this because the XV88 is still dangerous at S8, but they're not as big of a psychological threat now, which makes them less likely to get focus-fired to pieces turn 1.

From the perspective of a person who still faces Tau often enough, this is Bizarro World logic. :) I consider this right on par with the logic that says, "Mech is much better now because fewer people are going to take Melta Guns over Plasma." Do you see where I'm going with that? Broadsides got worse. That is the long and the short of it. If there is a Broadside on the table, I'm still going to kill it. I'll be a lot less worried about instant death for my Daemon Prince, but that isn't going to means I ignore the thing.

People are still going to concentrate their fire one one vehicle or another (whichever is easiest to kill or the biggest threat) to get first blood. The only reason not to shoot at the Broadside with long range fire on turn one is if there is a higher STR weapon ready to go.

[ElectricPaladin]

I would have to say, from the perspective of a player who went against Tau regularly, the drop from S10 to S8 on Broadsides is a buff for them, and I say this because the XV88 is still dangerous at S8, but they're not as big of a psychological threat now, which makes them less likely to get focus-fired to pieces turn 1.

That's a really good point that hadn't occurred to me. Twin-linked Strength 10 on what's basically an infantry model - hard as hell, but still infantry - is a huge target. Weakening it a little, but leaving it strong enough to be effective, is a really good idea.

[Power Klawz]

Board presence is a big issue I suppose, but so ephemeral as to be almost impossible to nail down. Heldrake has it, Bloodthirster has it, Broadsides had it, but do they still?

Guess it depends on what else is on the board, but being knocked down to str8 does tend to lower their destruction priority, I'll give you that. The real question then is can their improved meta-game survivability account for the statistical loss of destroying power? Given the potential carnage of a 3 strong railgun team back in the day, I'd say no. That is assuming best case scenario of course, or a "target rich environment" in which you get very lucky and pop a couple of land raiders on turn one or something.

Functionally however it might not be so true. No one is really doing raider spam anymore and str8 is plenty strong to ruin anything's day with enough shots. They become great long range terminator mulchers and if not taken out early (which they probably won't since your opponent will likely be focusing his attention on that shiny new riptide prancing around disintegrating entire units) they will probably fry any TEQ unit within a few turns that is foolhardy enough to be caught out in the open (or even if they're not in the open since markerlights laugh at cover.)

I guess I just can't bring myself to call it a buff that they are not as dangerous as they used to be and so are less likely to be focused early, its an interesting development and potentially a good one, but its just not really a buff.

This is a bit of hyperbole in metaphor, but that's like saying you're more dangerous to police now that you've replaced your 9mm with a squirt gun filled with orange juice, since they're less likely to open fire on you and might even start laughing, thus opening them up for your devastating fusillade of vitamin c enriched doom.

Now don't get me wrong, I DO think this change was a good thing. They needed to be taken down a peg while still maintaining viability through greater flexibility. I'm just saying that you can't honestly call a reduction in capability a buff, because it is in fact the opposite.

[Nabterayl]

I'd add markerlight drones to the winners column. They're BS2 now, but (i) more than half as cheap, and (ii) jet pack infantry, instead of whatever their owner is. (ii) means that units like broadsides and fire warriors can take them and still shoot their markerlights at full BS on the move, and (i) means that Tau players can buy a lot more of them. Also, new drone controllers mean that high-BS units such as a commander can potentially turn a whole squad's worth of marker drones BS5 - even a whole squad of marker drones, now that such things exist.

[Mr Mystery]

In defence of Broadsides, with Skyfire they become one of the best anti air units currently in the game. Massive range, twin linked, S8 and AP1. I cannot think of a single more reliable anti-air unit in the game. Damned difficult for fliers to avoid, and take quite a battering before going down.

It's the AP1 that does it. +2 to damage rolls? Yes please Santa! Add in Missile Drones, and you have a competent, well ranged fire support unit.

Yeah, the drop from S10 is a bummer, but given their range, they have an excellent chance of getting shots at weaker side armours, mitigating the drop to some degree.

Not saying they are 'auto-include' just giving some food for thought.

[Caitsidhe]

In defence of Broadsides, with Skyfire they become one of the best anti air units currently in the game. Massive range, twin linked, S8 and AP1. I cannot think of a single more reliable anti-air unit in the game. Damned difficult for fliers to avoid, and take quite a battering before going down.

I agree with you completely here. It is one of the best Anti-Air units in the game (if not the best overall). That is one of the reasons I don't buy into the notion that people are going to be less inclined to kill it on the first turn. :)


Not saying they are 'auto-include' just giving some food for thought.

They might be auto-include for a good all comers list. It just depends on the best bang for the buck in AA for the Tau. From my own, CSM, perspective, the Broadsides get a lot of fire from me because chances are I have at least one incoming Helldrake. I don't want any Broadsides around to take their shots for exactly the reasons you mention.

[SonicPara]

• Piranhas. With the advent of the Age of Plasma, these guys got even easier to kill. Their lack of long-range weaponry means that they have to get in too close to survive most exchanges. Worst of all, they no longer really function quite as well as mobile seeker platforms, thanks to the changes in seeker missiles.


Piranhas have always been paper-thin, close-range, suicide skimmers; their role has not changed one bit. Seeker Missiles have always been overpriced and generally bad so the limiting of the new Seekers doesn't really cramp their style either.

The new Piranha is infinitely better for one reason: 33% price reduction. Piranhas are still paper-thin, unreliable suicide units but now they tie up significantly less points as they are now dirt cheap. Add in that Gun Drones and Burst Cannons got an extra shot and that Fusion Blasters gained some range and the new Piranha is so absurdly better than the old one it might be one of if not the most improved unit in the book. It improved from "garbage" to "not that great" but the huge drop in points cost for them is reason enough to take them and not feel bad about it. The battlefield control they provide simply by rushing head-first into an opposing army is worth the pocket change you spend on them.

[marandamir]

Changes to Broadsides affected mostly their role from Anti-Heavy AV to Anti-anything but Heavy AV. S10 single shots are basically for AV13 or AV14 targets or to drop some instant death on a T5 guy you REALLY want dead. So a pack of broadsides aren't going to be scaring away that land raider rumbling towards you anymore. Instead, you need to leverage other unit types for that aspect. Like rail-heads or the plethora of stuff that can take the 18" fusion gun, which is a huge boost (armorbane at 9", woot!). So I don't think broadsides kinda got buffed, but only in its wider range of capabilities.

[ElectricPaladin]

The new Piranha is infinitely better for one reason: 33% price reduction. Piranhas are still paper-thin, unreliable suicide units but now they tie up significantly less points as they are now dirt cheap. Add in that Gun Drones and Burst Cannons got an extra shot and that Fusion Blasters gained some range and the new Piranha is so absurdly better than the old one it might be one of if not the most improved unit in the book. It improved from "garbage" to "not that great" but the huge drop in points cost for them is reason enough to take them and not feel bad about it. The battlefield control they provide simply by rushing head-first into an opposing army is worth the pocket change you spend on them.

That's actually pretty fair. The only reason I'm unlikely to try this myself is that first of all, piranhas didn't get any more versatile and still don't field any weapons I really want. I have burst cannons all over the freaking place and I'd rather put fusion blasters on XV25s and XV8s, which I can deep strike or jump-shoot-jump to improve their survivability. Also, the models didn't get any less expensive.

[oink]

For Piranhas don't also forget that a unit of these effectively give you two fast attack units for the price of one. This is important because the fast attack slot is, imo, very overpopulated with pretty good choices all round. In addition to that, Piranhas bring to the table a very fast moving unit of fusion blasters. Given the changes to broadside AT capability, the piranhas present thsemselves as a possible alternative for anti tank duty.

I'm not incredibly concerned with their survivability issues. They are fast enough to manouvre them tactically to get the benefit of cover, and of course they can be defended by the gun drone unit they bring along which can not only help with firepower, but also prevent assaults vs the piranhas and potentially also be used to provide cover when terrain isn't always enough...

[Power Klawz]

Doing a little bit of digging on stingwings and came up with something potentially interesting.

Vespid stingwings have "moves through cover" which states that any model with that rule automatically passes dangerous terrain tests. This kind of makes them a little awesome in my estimation.

First of all, they can deep strike into cover to no ill effect. Secondly since they are jump infantry they can always move 12 inches through difficult terrain without rolling for distance, and when they land they will be fine. I'm not sure if everyone else all ready knew this and just didn't think it was a big deal or overlooked the wording on the moves through cover USR.

Deep striking them into some ruins near power armored targets seems like it'd be pretty cool.

[Mr Mystery]

Still not convinced by them. Just too many points for their fragility. They are great at taking out isolated units, and certainly have the manoeuvrability to find and target them, but they are so fragile for their cost, and fairly likely to be themselves isolated.

Given they are up against Pathfinders (pretty much an essential for most lists) and both fliers, not to mention Drones, I just see them as an out-competed choice. Not bad as such, just not as good as other options.

[gcsmith]

Still not convinced by them. Just too many points for their fragility. They are great at taking out isolated units, and certainly have the manoeuvrability to find and target them, but they are so fragile for their cost, and fairly likely to be themselves isolated.

Given they are up against Pathfinders (pretty much an essential for most lists) and both fliers, not to mention Drones, I just see them as an out-competed choice. Not bad as such, just not as good as other options.

They provide a drone unit, and they are less fragile to the front than land speeders. Bolters can't hurt them to the front. And they are easily worth more than a landspeeder thanks to the drones they provide.

[Mr Mystery]

I was meaning Vespid....

Piranhas are fun! Give them flechette dischargers, and interpose them between fire warriors and attack enemy infantry, and they're a right lol! Ideal for stuff like Hormagaunts outside of synapse range, which have to charge! They get mullered royally, and as they can't pin you in combat, just reverse up in your next turn, meaning you don't need to spend firepower on any survivors, as they'll just charge in again!

Scratch that. Forgot Rage changed. Still, it helps prevent charges, as the enemy had to go round, not through, giving you a turn of rapid fire pain to dish out. And if something able to hurt them charges, they'll still get flechetted hard in the face. For stuff like Genestealers, that's not good!

[Power Klawz]

I don't really see it as an either/or scenario. Tau flyers are by no means mandatory (broadsides will plink aircraft out of the sky all by themselves.) and all those markerlight hits from your pathfinders and marker drones need someone to use them, why not str5 ap3 deep strikers?

A squad of 10 stingwings with a strain leader is 190 points, that by no means breaks anyone's bank. For that cost you are going to decimate any non TEQ unit the turn they arrive. For the price of a couple of marker light hits, you wind up with an average of 5 dead MEQ per turn. Depending on the particular power armored target you're shooting at that could pay for the unit in the first round of shooting.

They seem to make really good anti-assault marine troubleshooters. If you've got a blood angel assault squad with a sanguinary priest barreling down an unguarded flank these guys can catch up with them and pull their teeth out. Expensive vanguard vets will suffer the same. Of course they're situational, against armies of armor 5 or less you're not going to see the return on investment since everything else in your army punches through light armor for cheaper. Against terminators they won't do much with their low rate of fire, against ap4 they'll still be pretty useful but that's kind of a niche that tau themselves have cornered. (Although they'd do fine against their imperial cousins, deep striking storm troopers.)

Where they seem to suffer is that their guns don't count as pulse weapons so they can't benefit from sweet ethereal-enriched rapid firing. Considering that they're probably going to be well outside the bubble of awesome anyways though this doesn't seem like much of a problem.

I think they'll find use as counter units to deep striking or fast moving MEQ assault units or units like themselves, deep striking ap3 close range threats like storm troopers, hell even dark reapers (which I suspect will be just as if not more amazing in the new dex.)

Being able to plop a squad of anti-MEQ right into cover behind a juicy target just seems like too good a thing to completely discount. They're a little pricey but not a point more than a standard assault marine, and they don't have or need the pricey gear options that most assault marines will take. In a pinch they can tie up a scary unit for a turn to slow it down, then disengage and blast some more. There's a lot of tactical flexibility here and they're not THAT squishy.

What would have pushed them over the top into "yes I love bugmen" territory would have been an option for the strain leader to take drones I think. (or making their weapons assault 2 or even rapid fire, but that's broken talk right there.)

[Mr Mystery]

They also benefit from Supporting Fire, so I guess they are better than I thought. Still not for me though :)

And something I think has been missed on Piranha. The very cheap Smart Missile has now become non-marker dependant. With their general nippiness, they can provide a naughty side or rear shot at enemy armour. Against regular players, main benefit can only be depended upon the first couple of times. The other time of course they can exert a surprising amount of board control... And their AV11 is... Irritating as has been pointed out. You need decent weapons to target them, and against Tau, that firepower will be pretty thinly spread....

[gcsmith]

I don't really see it as an either/or scenario. Tau flyers are by no means mandatory (broadsides will plink aircraft out of the sky all by themselves.) and all those markerlight hits from your pathfinders and marker drones need someone to use them, why not str5 ap3 deep strikers?

A squad of 10 stingwings with a strain leader is 190 points, that by no means breaks anyone's bank. For that cost you are going to decimate any non TEQ unit the turn they arrive. For the price of a couple of marker light hits, you wind up with an average of 5 dead MEQ per turn. Depending on the particular power armored target you're shooting at that could pay for the unit in the first round of shooting.

They seem to make really good anti-assault marine troubleshooters. If you've got a blood angel assault squad with a sanguinary priest barreling down an unguarded flank these guys can catch up with them and pull their teeth out. Expensive vanguard vets will suffer the same. Of course they're situational, against armies of armor 5 or less you're not going to see the return on investment since everything else in your army punches through light armor for cheaper. Against terminators they won't do much with their low rate of fire, against ap4 they'll still be pretty useful but that's kind of a niche that tau themselves have cornered. (Although they'd do fine against their imperial cousins, deep striking storm troopers.)

Where they seem to suffer is that their guns don't count as pulse weapons so they can't benefit from sweet ethereal-enriched rapid firing. Considering that they're probably going to be well outside the bubble of awesome anyways though this doesn't seem like much of a problem.

I think they'll find use as counter units to deep striking or fast moving MEQ assault units or units like themselves, deep striking ap3 close range threats like storm troopers, hell even dark reapers (which I suspect will be just as if not more amazing in the new dex.)

Being able to plop a squad of anti-MEQ right into cover behind a juicy target just seems like too good a thing to completely discount. They're a little pricey but not a point more than a standard assault marine, and they don't have or need the pricey gear options that most assault marines will take. In a pinch they can tie up a scary unit for a turn to slow it down, then disengage and blast some more. There's a lot of tactical flexibility here and they're not THAT squishy.

What would have pushed them over the top into "yes I love bugmen" territory would have been an option for the strain leader to take drones I think. (or making their weapons assault 2 or even rapid fire, but that's broken talk right there.)

What would of made them, yes I love bugmen is if they were actually 16 points still, or heck, 14 or something, especially with marines looking like they are going down to 13 points a model.

[Uncle Nutsy]

I still like my piranha rush, but it's changed a little bit. Before, I used to push them right up the flanks and loose seekers after their maximum distance. Now, I just have to park them into cover and bring them out the next turn. In fact, I might use them as sneaky ground hugging support.

[Power Klawz]

Not sure why you'd think loyalist marines are heading to 13 points. DA are 14 points a pop and while they are stubborn, they also lose the ability to fail checks on purpose and so cannot disengage from a losing fight like normal marines, probably a wash in terms of points. Chaos marines are 13 a pop but they don't have ATSKNF, which definitely warrants a 1 point deduction. I'd be surprised to see 13 point vanilla marines in the next dex, surprised but its not totally out of the picture I guess.

14 points for stingwings sounds kind of ludicrous. Storm troopers are 16 and they don't have jump packs, not to mention they're only toughness 3 and the imperium hasn't invented markerlights.

[gcsmith]

Not sure why you'd think loyalist marines are heading to 13 points. DA are 14 points a pop and while they are stubborn, they also lose the ability to fail checks on purpose and so cannot disengage from a losing fight like normal marines, probably a wash in terms of points. Chaos marines are 13 a pop but they don't have ATSKNF, which definitely warrants a 1 point deduction. I'd be surprised to see 13 point vanilla marines in the next dex, surprised but its not totally out of the picture I guess.

14 points for stingwings sounds kind of ludicrous. Storm troopers are 16 and they don't have jump packs, not to mention they're only toughness 3 and the imperium hasn't invented markerlights.

The fact of the matter is, 16 points was overcosted for Vespid before, they made them slightly better, IE, worth the 16 then made them 18. They are not worth it for that cost and what they compete with.

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure why you'd think loyalist marines are heading to 13 points. DA are 14 points a pop and while they are stubborn, they also lose the ability to fail checks on purpose and so cannot disengage from a losing fight like normal marines, probably a wash in terms of points. Chaos marines are 13 a pop but they don't have ATSKNF, which definitely warrants a 1 point deduction. I'd be surprised to see 13 point vanilla marines in the next dex, surprised but its not totally out of the picture I guess.

14 points for stingwings sounds kind of ludicrous. Storm troopers are 16 and they don't have jump packs, not to mention they're only toughness 3 and the imperium hasn't invented markerlights.

Can't really compare units across books though. Storm Troopers are useful in a Guard army, as they bring fairly survivable infantry with a decent gun to a list where it's mostly chaffe infantry, and are pointed accordingly.

[Power Klawz]

You can compare units across different armies, there's nothing stopping you. Especially when you're looking at two very similar armies and two unit types within those armies that do very similar things. The only real disconnect is the generational gap between the two, one being squarely in 5th and the other 6th.

Also you can't really say "the fact of the matter is..." and then state something purely subjective. There is no formula for point value calculation, the design team doesn't even use one and mostly just settles on what "feels" right. So really what your summation amounts to is "I can't envision myself being able to get 18 points of usefulness per model out of this unit type."

The only real test is using them in a game and seeing what happens. I can think of at least half a dozen relatively common scenarios where they'd be worth the points investment to me. The maneuverability, speed and impact of the unit lends itself well to tactical flexibility. They can get where they need to be and kill what they need to kill. Their situational effectiveness is in direct contrast to pure mathematical assumptions. Its obvious that the design team is moving away from creating obvious mathematical superiority for units and putting more emphasis on situational superiority.

Depending on the battlefield, dropping these guys into ruins makes them more survivable than terminators, with better guns. I guess if all you ever do is build "all comers" tournament lists then you might find the chances of this outcome to not warrant the risk, but there are more game types than blindly drawn opponents tournament style.