AP3 on the wane?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Just something I've noticed amongst the first 4 codecies out for 6th Edition....

There seems to be fewer and fewer AP3 weapons out there. Whilst it's not being taken away in most cases, the various new toys people are given to play with seem to cap out at AP4 for the most part.

Take the Ion Rifle. Even supercharged, only AP4. The big bomb? AP5.

Just wondering if I'm seeing something that isn't there, or if others have observed the same.

[Learn2Eel]

We are seeing more monstrous creatures and more power weapons in the form of relic wargear and the like, I haven't noticed a dearth of AP three ranged weaponry though to be honest. Take the Ion Cannon on the Hammerhead; when over-charged, it fires a Strength eight AP three large blast!

[SonicPara]

With Tau the lack of AP3 is due to the plethora of high-strength, high rate of fire weapons that the army gets. Tau overwhelm armor through volume of fire; fire that sticks to the targets due to S5+ making wounding rolls favorable.

I don't think AP3 is being phased out, just this release is light on it for calculated reasons.

[RGilbert26]

CSM codex has lots of AP2 /3, DA has some and Tau have around the same...ish.

[Wolfshade]

If there is a reduction, then I see this as a good thing after all Power Armour is supposed to be virtually impenetrable.

[Mr Mystery]

CSM codex has lots of AP2 /3, DA has some and Tau have around the same...ish.

But apart from one or two exceptions, I'm noticing the new weapons getting it.

And as Wolfshade mentioned, that's not necessarily a bad thing overall. Assuming it's more than just a half baked obersvation on my behalf!

[Learn2Eel]

Well it really depends on the functionality of the unit. They can't hand out AP three too much otherwise the in-game value of Space Marines - GW's most popular set of codices by far - will decrease. As long as a unit pays for its abilities as always, it should work out just fine. Massed AP three tends not to work too well anyway, as it usually leaves one light on anti-tank or anti-Terminator duties; Thousand Sons are pretty endemic of this as the only real army I can think of that has AP three out the waazoo.
A similar kind of logic should apply to monstrous creatures. If everyone had force weapons or lots of high strength shooting, no-one would take them. It is my best guess that Grey Knights will be toned down quite a bit in their next codex to reflect this, particularly when one considers the changes to Daemons.

Not that this is arguing any real point in the thread or anything, just a general observation :)

[Charistoph]

Very very few ranged weapons had an AP:3 at all. Most were AP5, with Rending, plasma, and vehicle killers being AP: 2 or 1.

As Learn2Eel mentioned, Thousand Sons and Tau were among the few to actually carry AP: 3 weapons at all.

If anything, 6th Edition has had an INCREASE of AP: 3 due to the nature of Power Weapons.

[Denzark]

Very very few ranged weapons had an AP:3 at all. Most were AP5, with Rending, plasma, and vehicle killers being AP: 2 or 1.

As Learn2Eel mentioned, Thousand Sons and Tau were among the few to actually carry AP: 3 weapons at all.

If anything, 6th Edition has had an INCREASE of AP: 3 due to the nature of Power Weapons.

Yeah I was sort of thinking this as well.

[bfmusashi]

Storm Troopers and Henchpeople also rock the AP 3.

[Caitsidhe]

I have to echo the comments of some others; I have not noticed a decline in AP-3 weaponry. If anything, there has been a significant increase. My own faction (Chaos Space Marines) gained a bunch of AP-3 Torrents above and beyond the AP-3 Templates we already had with Doom Sirens, AP-3 Large Blast Defilers, and of course the largely ununsed AP-3 Bolters of 1K Sons.

[magickbk]

rock-paper-scissors-power armor-AP 3.

I'm sure every codex release from here on out will get some new nasty that can pump out some AP 3, if the army already doesn't have a unit that does. That's why Stormtroopers got it. Tau didn't really need a magic influx since they got rail rifles last time out, and making them rapid fire increases the potential. And they have Crisis suits that can have fusion/plasma, so between that and being able to force a lot of non-AP 3 saves, they are pretty good at handling marines.

I don't imagine there will be a lot of new AP 3 out there when Eldar come out, as they already have Wraithguard and Dark Reapers. Maybe Warp Spiders will get it, so that they can release a new box and make it a must-have.

[Power Klawz]

Heldrake says AP3 is big business. Also battlecannons are still battlecannons.

[Learn2Eel]

It is kind of interesting that the faction that hates Loyalist Space Marines the most (Chaos Space Marines) has the most AP3 in the game by far....

I've noticed though that too many units pay way too many points to be "Space Marine killers"; in editions past and present, Vespid Stingwings, Thousand Sons and the like have all been over-costed and generally made redundant because they were designed solely to kill Space Marines. Thankfully, this has been toned down; though Thousand Sons are still "meh", Vespid are actually quite useful now.

[Power Klawz]

The thing I really don't get about thousand sons is that they are slow and purposeful and so can't fire overwatch. I mean I guess it makes a certain kind of sense from a fluff angle, but really what does being slow and purposeful benefit a unit that's about as awesome in close combat as a brick wall (maybe the enemy will scrape their knuckles while they pound on us!)

That combined with the mandatory mini-wizard kind of ruins the appeal for most people I guess. The sorc is 58(!) points and not optional! At 23 points you get a spess mahreen that is fearless, double taps ap3 at 12 inches while rocking a 4++(and then you get to burn some more in later turns), hates loyalists and for some reason can charge after rapid firing. Maybe a tad overpriced, but for the whole package 23 points aint that bad, especially for a unit that can shrug off battlecannons like so much confetti. Its just a shame the sorcerer is such a points drain and only has access to the wonderful lore of Tzeentch (who apparently really dislikes them and only lets them spray vaguely weapon-like clouds of bright lights at enemies.)

Vespid are shaping up to be pretty superior MEQ hunters though. They can jump-shoot-jump right? Gnarly looking bug people jumping out of trees to fry your ultra-bros are a pretty scary thing.

(Ok maybe I was a little harsh on the lore of Tzeentch. The primaris power is total rotting garbage though, and 1/3 of the other powers give you the amazing ability to try and turn your other characters into that which shall not be named by punching them in the dick. The other 2 are pretty decent though I guess, 18" poor man's melta beam and an actually pretty awesome template weapon that makes terminators and potentially the land raider they rode in on go poof on a 4+, but a 33% chance at awesome is just that.)

DOUBLE EDIT: Scratch that, aspiring sorcerers are power level 1 and so cannot wield the almighty horror-flame of the changer of ways, and so are left spraying strength 8 beams out of their nether regions, or gesturing madly in a vain attempt at making the enemy laugh themselves to death. Well at least they've got force weapons and ap 3 pistols.

I'm actually kind of thinking now if a sorcerer can target him/her/itself with Boon of mutation. I mean, theoretically you could start the game with a boon for 10 points, and then punch yourself in the ding ding for a couple of turns and hope you don't turn into a gribbly or die, and maybe pull off a turn 2 assault (after double tapping with ap3 bolter robots of course) with a ravening self buffed super warrior who one shots your opponents warlord.

HA! Not bloody likely, but a boy can dream can't he?

[MajorWesJanson]

Vespid are Jump Infantry, not Jet infantry.

[Power Klawz]

Vespid are Jump Infantry, not Jet infantry.

Yeah just found that out today. That certainly makes them less impressive, but I suspect they could still get the job done as a supporting unit.

[marandamir]

Very very few ranged weapons had an AP:3 at all. Most were AP5, with Rending, plasma, and vehicle killers being AP: 2 or 1.

As Learn2Eel mentioned, Thousand Sons and Tau were among the few to actually carry AP: 3 weapons at all.

If anything, 6th Edition has had an INCREASE of AP: 3 due to the nature of Power Weapons.

I'd really consider Power weapons to be a nerf away from AP2 rather than an increase of ap3. They already ignored 3+ armor so to me, that hasn't changed. What did change is the point costs of units that carry said weapons. Bloodletters are 10 pts with a power weapon, taken in units up to 20. That is ALOT of ap3 for CHEAP (marines sergents pay 10-15 pts extra for a power weapon!). You could do that before the last demon dex but the costs were way higher. Tau battle suits could always take fusion and plasma weapons but the cost was pricy and the new dex made some weapons better (like the fusion being 18" now). Templates that are AP3 are actually very deadly as they also negate cover. For marines that pretty much meant no save at all unless you were lucky enough to have an invuln. With the inclusion of Torrent special rules it has made life harder for 3+ armor models. Also, don't forget psychic powers. In 5th ed psychic powers were useless as psychic hoods negated most attacks. Now, all you get is a 6+ deny the witch roll to protect you from any ugly psychic attacks that have ap3 or worse.

So to me, AP3 is actually more available than it was. I think the balance factor will be the overall cheapening of 3+ armor save models. CSM are 13 pts each and I expect those to be pretty close to stock marine prices (maybe 14 a model due to 'know no fear'). That isn't a bad price and if marines get cheaper then you can take more of them and you won't mind it as much when some get owned by the increased AP3 weapons out there.

[jgebi]

starting to think gameswork shop guys aren't so mean about how they do the rules

[marandamir]

starting to think gameswork shop guys aren't so mean about how they do the rules

They aren't mean, just greedy. They simply make units better to drive up sales of that unit. Then again business is all about being greedy, so I should amend that by saying they aren't mean, they are just businessmen :p

[Charistoph]

I'd really consider Power weapons to be a nerf away from AP2 rather than an increase of ap3. They already ignored 3+ armor so to me, that hasn't changed.

Yeah, but they were Ignore Armor and not actually AP: 3, which they are now, which was my point. Except for:

So to me, AP3 is actually more available than it was.

Which is exactly what I said. We also have already seen more and more of them coming in the new books.

Is that a good thing? I think so, especially if they keep AP: 2 messing with Armour Pen results.