What If: Inqusition goes too far

[Aenir]

I was having a discussion with a buddy about the power of the inquisition, and if they could command marines

I was trying to argue the poitn that if marines split up again, I think it would break down to Codex vs Non Codex

DA
Space Wolves
BA
Templars (and Imperal fists?)

vs Codex Chapters

He is arguing that they could even go to calgar and tell him to jump and he would ask how high

[Nabterayl]

Inquisitors certainly have the authority to command space marines. The question is whether or not the space marines will care.

Imperial Armour Volume 4 tells the story of an Ordo Xenos inquisitor investigating what turned out to be an Imperial research station attempting to study tyranid biology. Naturally the tyranids escaped and overran the facility. In addition to the inquisitor's personal band of Elysian drop troops and some inducted Cadians, he was aided by space marines of the Red Scorpions chapter. In the final desperate hours, as the Imperials were falling back to a strong point to await evacuation, one of the Red Scorpions' Thunderhawks went down. With it was the captain of the First Company and one of their dreadnoughts. The remaining Red Scorpions set out on a rescue mission, abandoning the inquisitor, Elysians, and Cadians to the oncoming tyranid horde. The inquisitor ordered the marines to stand with him, and the greater number of imperiled men. He literally brandished his inquisitorial mandate in their faces. The marines didn't even respond, physically brushing past him on the way to their Rhinos, and rescued their stranded comrades. Upon their return the marine commander informed the inquisitor that they were evacuating. Again he ordered them, in the name of the Emperor and by the authority vested in him as a bearer of the inquisitorial mandate, to stand their ground. He threatened them with the wrath of his conclave. The marine commander loaded up his Thunderhawks and evacuated. The inquisitor, the Elysians, and the Cadians were killed to a man.

The Ordo Xenos, as you might imagine, was Not Happy.

And yet, in the end, no punitive action was taken against the Red Scorpions.

I think this is a pretty typical example of the relationship between marines and the Inquisition. Legally, if you will, an inquisitor can absolutely command any space marine in the Imperium to do his bidding. However, if the space marine says no, there is damn all the lone inquisitor can do about it. In order to force the marines to comply, he'll need serious backup, which can come in one of three forms:
Serious political pressure. Depending on the chapter in question, and the inquisitor in question, it might be that there is political leverage the inquisitor can apply. For instance, a very new chapter might rely heavily on a local forge world to supplement its chapter forge. If he has the connections (and the balls), the inquisitor might be able to threaten the recalcitrant marines with cutting off their supply of Thunderhawks and drop pods, which would be a crippling blow to the chapter. Or, depending on the nature of the mission and the personality of the marine commander, he might be able to maneuver the marine commander into a position where he has to comply with the inquisitor's orders or else look like a coward or dishonorable man in front of people whose opinion he cares about.
Another marine chapter. If the inquisitor can demonstrate to another marine chapter's satisfaction that the first marine chapter has effectively gone rogue by refusing his demands, he might be able to get the second marine chapter to threaten the first with war unless it complies.
An Ordo Hereticus strike force. If the inquisitor can't convince another marine chapter, but can convince his local Ordo Hereticus conclave, the Ordo Hereticus could call upon the Adepta Sororitas to put together an elite force of sisters under the command of one of its best battle-hardened inquisitors, and this strike force would be called upon to threaten the marines with destruction unless they complied with the inquisitor's demands.
The first option is not very likely to succeed. The second and third are essentially nuclear options, since if the chapter doesn't back down, the inquisitor will effectively be forced to try to destroy it. If he succeeds, then he's taught the marines a lesson but has also destroyed the very troops he was hoping to use. If he fails, he looks like an idiot, and he doesn't have the troops he was hoping to use, and he's wasted valuable time.

So even though, legally, an inquisitor can commandeer marines just like any other imperial citizen, practically, he has to hope the marines decide to play along.

Gabriel Angelos, captain of the Blood Ravens Third Company, sums it up well in one line: "I shall not cede command of my Space Marines to him, Inquisitor or not."

[Aenir]

...
So even though, legally, an inquisitor can commandeer marines just like any other imperial citizen, practically, he has to hope the marines decide to play along.

Gabriel Angelos, captain of the Blood Ravens Third Company, sums it up well in one line: "I shall not cede command of my Space Marines to him, Inquisitor or not."

Which brings up my 2nd point, if the inquisitors went so far as to alienate to the point of rebellion (not push to chaos, just normal human power games)

Could the chapters above deal with the inquisition?

Would they have to fight the codex chapters or would all space marines band together?

[RogueGarou]

Well, it kind of depends on the folks involved, circumstances and what they were being "asked" to do. Inquisitors certainly can go too far but that is kind of a gray area since there are many factions of the Inquisition. The Inquisition is broadly broken up into Puritan and Radical camps and then each of those viewpoints is further broken down into many differing ideals, Thorian, reincarnation of the Emperor, et cetera. For a Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, using a bound Daemon is perfectly acceptable but for a Puritan Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, that would be an unforgivable heresy. The same can be applied to their relations with Marines.

Space Marines fall outside of the normal structure of things for Inquisitors. An Inquisitor can see pretty much all of the Imperium as theirs. I want that battleship... by the power of the Inquisition, this battleship is going to do what I say. You, Guardsman, you're my personal servant now, got it? That kind of thing. With the Space Marines, though, they do not have any compunction to obey other than what they decide to abide. Some Chapters have long-standing agreements to work with the Inquisition or certain Inquisitors. Some Chapters will obey out of loyalty to the Imperium and to an Emperor's servant. Some Chapters will actively resist the interference of an Inquisitor or anyone else they want to ignore. Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are all somewhat famous for resisting Inquisitorial investigation generally.

Some Chapters have very strong ties to an Inquisitor and follow their lead quite easily or willingly. For example, the Relictors who were tied to a Radical Inquisitor for some time. They will use Daemon weapons to fight Chaos and will often pursue their own agenda without regard for the greater needs or strategies of other Imperial forces. During the Third War for Armageddon, the Relictors participated but they were essentially a non-entity as they barely engaged the Orks. Instead, they were searching for artifacts from the First War for Armageddon, relics from the Daemon and Chaos invasion of the planet. Almost as soon as the 13th Black Crusade started and the call for assistance at the Eye of Terror was received, the Relictors pulled up stake on Armageddon and most of the Chapter made their best time to the region but again they may have been following their own plan and not necessarily the overall plan to defend Cadian space.

The Inquisition maintains some Marine units possibly because they can not depend on some of their ties to the Astartes providing unequivocal support. Kryptmann was strongly criticized by Uriel Ventris when he virus bombed a planet about to be taken by the Tyrannids. It seemed that Ventris was about to cut his Ultramarine forces from the Inquisitor when he joined the Deathwatch force for the attack on the Norn Queen. The Ordo Malleus maintains very close ties to the Grey Knights and the Ordo Xenos maintains ties to several Chapters and forms the Deathwatch from those Chapters. There have been some different mentions of the structure of the Deathwatch, though. In some fluff it is implied that only certain Chapters are used to form the Deathwatch. In other fluff it was stated that all of the Chapters have a commitment to tribute some troops to the Deathwatch for a period of service. Those Marines who return to their Chapter are then able to spread their knowledge of how to fight the alien to the rest of the Chapter. This is similar to an exchange program but some writings imply it is a lifelong deployment to the Deathwatch and those Marines have a duty to serve the Ordo Xenos until death. Until we get a Codex and an official word, who knows which is more accurate.

The short answer is, Marines can obey an Inquisitor but are mostly not required to obey since they are a separate entity from the rest of the Imperium. They are also one of the few organizations which could successfully resist an Inquisitor's "request".

[Nabterayl]

Could all the space marines in the Imperium handle the inquisition? Almost certainly.

There is no question in my mind that the Imperial Guard could defeat all the space marines in the Imperium, if they were willing to pay the cost. Heck, the marines would have a hell of a time with just the Navy. And that doesn't even start to count the Adepta Sororitas, who are a lot closer to space marines in terms of combat power than some people give them credit for, and more importantly are closer to space marines in training and capabilities than any other troops in the Imperium except the storm trooper corps.

The thing is, I doubt very much it would come down to that. A crusade against the Inquisition (which is surely how the marines would think of it) would boil down to a series of large-scale assassinations as marines hunted down inquisitors and whatever troops they had managed to surround themselves with. Space marines own their own fleets. They barely register in terms of combat power compared to the Navy, and even on a ship-for-ship basis Navy vessels are at least the equal of their space marine equivalents. But the mere fact that every chapter has its own fleet, with superior Navigators, while the Inquisition is forced to commandeer Navy vessels, means that the space marines would have a fairly easy time seizing and retaining the strategic initiative. It would be very difficult to force the marines to battle.

And, as you've said, it wouldn't even come down to that, since the odds of all the space marines in the Imperium turning on the Inquisition are almost nil. You could of course construct a scenario where it happens, but any scenario that is sufficiently drastic would also see the rest of the Imperium turning on the Inquisition (e.g., suppose every Inquisitor in the Imperium ascends to daemonhood. Would that unite the space marines against the Inquisition? Yes. But by the time the marines even got there the Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Imperial Guard, PDFs, Adeptus Arbites and Adepta Sororitas would already have gutted the Inquisition).

So in any scenario that was bad enough to actively turn marines against the Inquisition, but not bad enough that everybody else piled in, yes, the marines would almost certainly be split.

I don't think it would boil down to codex vs. non-codex chapters, though. I don't think the codex vs. non-codex divide is as big a deal as that. I think the division would come down to less predictable things, based on a chapter's history of dealing with the Inquisition, the precise things the Inquisition had done to turn some marines against them, and each chapter master's assessment of what would ultimately benefit the Imperium more.

EDIT:
The short answer is, Marines can obey an Inquisitor but are mostly not required to obey since they are a separate entity from the rest of the Imperium.
That's not true. The space marines are part of the Adeptus Terra (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Terra), which firmly places them within the overall umbrella of the Imperium. They aren't separate from it. Space marines are formally required to obey an inquisitor. They just don't necessarily care.

[Gotthammer]

That's basically how the Badab War started. Huron was being hassled by the man over late tithes and not submitting to testing by the AdMech. Eventually the Administratum, Inquisition and AdMech got sick of the run-around, and sent some guys to enforce their will.

Huron, being a tricky fellow, used this to persuade loyal Astartes that their independance was being infringed upon over a matter of taxes, so got allies. Other Chapters, who were likely better informed, came in against Huron and his buddies.

Also, DA, BA and Fists are all codex. The only variences are DA have Death/Raven wing, and BAs have the Death Company. The Wolves hate the Inquisition for what they did after Armageddon I, and have actively stymied them at times. However the Wolves are highly regarded by the Guard, Fleet and almost all other Chapters, so any action against them would not be well recieved. The Inquisition wanted to crush Grimmnar for his impertinance towards them, but had to stay their hand as they knew if they did it would likely lead to a second heresey of sorts.


It depends on the Chapter's age, prestige and background IMO. For instance a new, 100% codex chapter would do whatever the Inquisition asked of them, or be disbanded or destroyed - being new means they would have few allies aside from those with the natural bond of Astartes Brotherhood. The circumstances would see how many would come to their aid (see Badab War).
An older, more established one could probably get some leeway (see Vraks III where the Angels of Absolution only enter the war on their terms). They'd have enough of a history that if they were known as great warriors they'd have the other Chapters more willing to back them. If they were known as being flakes or psychos, they'd be on their own (like the Flesh Tearers after Armageddon III).
A wierd isolationist chapter (like the Red Scorpions) would just ignore them (and everyone except the Emperor himself) when it suits them better. Same for Chapters who believe in the humanity of the Emp, as opposed to the Imperial Cult, or don't recognise the authority of anyone outside the Primarchs or Emperor - Codex Chapters could take this mindset, seeing the Administratum, Ecclesiarcy and High Lords as upstarts and usurpers, and the wisdom of Calgar, the other Primarchs and the Emperor (also their genetic forebears) as the only authority over them.

So the short summary is that it would really depend on who was involved, why the =I= and marines are going against each other, and what each side has to lose by forcing the situation to escalate.

[Just_Me]

First of all, the Fists are very much a codex chapter, and the Templars, while they don’t actually follow the codex are fiercely loyal and puritanical (they don’t even use psykers of any kind), so much so that they make some puritan Inquisitors look like radical loose cannons.

Second, you are grotesquely over simplifying the power structure of the Imperium. The Imperium is not a unilateral organization with clear-cut political divisions. It’s more like a giant house of cards. Built on a stack of oil drums. And all of the cards are explosives. And the person building that house of cards has palsy. Humor aside, the ONLY things that keep the whole thing from falling into an anarchistic disaster are; a) inertia, b) the tacit understanding that all of the organizations play nicely with each other. To try another simple analogy imagine the different factions of the Imperium as a daycare full of toddlers and there aren’t enough toys for everyone, and most of them have lethal weapons, and some of them are genetically enhanced super beings, and others are religious zealots, and… You know what? There is not simple way to descried the power dynamics of the Imperium, it’s just a f*cking mess.

Could the unified Astartes take on the Inquisition in full blown war? Hell yes! Would that ever happen? No. The Astartes chapters can barely work together when they are fighting on the same side; they are by their very nature fiercely independent organizations.

The thing to always recall is that the Inquisition can order ANYONE to do ANYTHING. But… There are organizations that have the political clout to “interpret” or ignore those orders. The Astartes and the Mechanicum are notorious for doing that, partly because they are special cases and are semi-independent of the Imperium proper, and the Ministorium and Navis Nobilis also has the power to do so if they pick their moments. However, all of said organizations are perfectly well aware that the Imperium is always in imminent danger of flying apart, and are quite adept at pushing only just so far.

With this in mind the whole thing becomes an almost elegant political dance. Only the most arrogant self righteous Inquisitor would try to enlist the aid of an Astartes chapter in the form of an order (not that it doesn’t happen, and sometimes it even works), they request that aid ever so politely, cite ancient oaths of fealty, point out the importance of their need, etc. Most of the time the Astartes agree to help, but if they don’t the Inquisitor must ask himself just how far he wants to push things. Does refusal to give aid really mean the chapter has gone rogue? Or is it more likely that there are other legitimate concerns the Astartes have which actually necessitates their refusal? Does he really want to start another Badab war over what might have been nothing more than a legitimate conflict of interests? Most of them will be more circumspect than that.

[Melissia]

Just a side comment for those whom overvalue the Astartes: don't let the arrogance of the Astartes get in the way of the simple fact that the Inquisition can, if it really wants to, destroy an Astartes chapter completely and utterly. It has done so in the past and it will do so in the future. The Marines are valuable, but the treason is a crime worse than heresy and punishment will come, even if not immediately or directly.

That said, if all the Marines in the Imperium somehow turned on the Inquisition? What about inquisitorial servants such as deathwatch (or even former deathwatch members) and grey knights, whom have obligations to the Inquisition? Or chapters which themselves have a good relationships with the Inquisition or even specific inquisitors?

Remember, the Inquisition is even MORE individualistic than Space Marines are. Every single inquisitor is a unique individual with unique beliefs (whereas Marines are typically trained so that their division and individuality still reflects the chapter's general theme), even the various members of an Ordo or belief group debate amongst themselves-- monodominants might debate on just how extreme they need to go, for example. Getting two Inquisitors to agree on anything can often be harder to do than getting the Inquisition and Space Wolves to work together.

[rkiviman]

You can't overvalue the Astartes chapters. They are needed just as much as the Inquisition authority. The Astartes are autonomous and have a sworn allegiance to the Emperor and he is the only authority they fully recoginize.Being loyal and faithful servants of the Emperor they also recognize that the Imperial authority is the one he set up and will obey as long as does not interfere with their faith in the Emperor or their loyalty to their respective chapters. The DeathWatch respond to command of the Ordo Hereticus and Inquistion. These Marines that serve their are hand picked and willingly serve. They in their service to the Imperium authority give glory to their respective chapters. The Inqiuisition and the Space Marines work together and would/should not come into an open conflict. This would destroy the fabric of the Imperium and both recognize what's at stake even with all their differences. It is interesting how in spite of their differences they both manage to accomplish their various missions and protect the Imperium.

[Nabterayl]

You can't overvalue the Astartes chapters. They are needed just as much as the Inquisition authority.
I think she meant overvalue in the sense of overestimate their combat power, which you certainly can do. Mel's quite correct that the Inquisition can and has gone nuclear on individual marine chapters in the past and wiped them out. A space marine chapter is valuable, but not so valuable that they can do no wrong in the Inquisition's eyes. They're powerful combat formations, but not so powerful that the Inquisition (with the appropriate assistance from other marine chapters or one of the Chambers Militant) can't wipe them out.

[Aldramelech]

Now I admit I'm not as well read as many in the realms of 40k, but what Ive read so far (All the Ultra books, Dawn of war series etc.) leads me to believe that the Space Marines by and Large do not take orders from Inquisitors, regard them as a minor irritation and couldn't care less what they think.

In fact in one of the Blood Ravens books Capt. Gabrial Angelos flat out tells one he does not have the authority to issue orders to him.

[Just_Me]

It is certainly true that chapter have been wiped out by the Inquisition before, but in each case it was for something more serious that just refusing to polish an Inquisitor’s shoes when asked. Generally it involved either really radical warlordism or the corruption of their gene-seed and/or refusal to submit to the routine inspection of same.

When they have to act the Inquisition is perfectly capable of extinguishing an Astartes chapter with: a) aid from another chapter (thus the independence of the chapters is in itself a safeguard). b) their own Inquisitorial Stormtrooper forces. c) the Adepta Sororitas (which I think we all agreed in that other thread are one of the few military forces that can truly take on marines on relatively even footing, even it still nowhere near “equal”).

[Nabterayl]

regard them as a minor irritation and couldn't care less what they think.
I think this is what makes this hypothetical hard for me to analyze. It's hard for me to imagine the Inquisition "pushing" the space marines as a whole too far. What could they do that the marines would even care about? Even subjecting a chapter's recruiting world to Exterminatus wouldn't get the marines as a whole riled up, I don't think. Virus-bomb Fenris and Logan Grimnar's going to have it in for you, but I can't see why the Imperial Fists would care. And even then it's not like Grimnar would have it in for the entire Inquisition. More likely the individual that ordered the Exterminatus, or perhaps his Conclave.

[Nabterayl]

When they have to act the Inquisition is perfectly capable of extinguishing an Astartes chapter with: a) aid from another chapter (thus the independence of the chapters is in itself a safeguard). b) their own Inquisitorial Stormtrooper forces. c) the Adepta Sororitas (which I think we all agreed in that other thread are one of the few military forces that can truly take on marines on relatively even footing, even it still nowhere near “equal”).
Agreed about a) and c). b) I'm not so sure about. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't bet on an Astartes chapter if it was facing, say, an Imperial Guard army. I wouldn't even necessarily bet on an Astartes chapter if it was facing just a sufficient number of Inquisitorial storm troopers. But I doubt many inquisitors - if any - have enough storm troopers in their house troops to get the job done.

[Aenir]

like i said, it would be a rather think stretch, hence the what if...


But I think what im trying to ask now, could the Sisters + Inquisitorial Stormtroopers hold up to the weight of a combined assault of multiple marine chapters?

One chapter sure... but you (as an example) would have the DA, plus all their successors, or the Ultramarines and all of THEIR successors etc.

[Nabterayl]

I think the question is how many sisters, and how many storm troopers? Two sisters and ten million storm troopers? Yeah, I think a force like that could stand up to several marine chapters, you know? =P

I think this is one of those situations where you need to take it scenario by scenario. For instance:

Marines attacking a Sororitas fortress (or anybody's fortress) - will go fine, if the marines control the orbits, which means punching out any local system defense forces or Imperial Navy detachments and taking out the surface-to-orbit defenses. Without their strike cruisers and battle barges, space marines have no heavy artillery. Taking out a real fortress without artillery is a hell of a job even for the best infantry in the Imperium. As long as there isn't a powerful local Navy detachment, several chapters' fleet assets should be able to achieve decisive space superiority. Taking out surface-to-orbit defenses is a marine specialty, so unless the fortress has its own integral defense lasers/STO missile batteries, this scenario probably goes to the marines, by virtue of the fact that they can bombard the fortress from orbit with impunity (and space marine ships, while not designed for ship-to-ship combat, are designed for planetary bombardments).
Marines attacking a Sororitas/storm trooper force in a pitched battle - this is trickier. This situation is kind of akin to several SEAL teams engaging the U.S. Marines in a pitched battle. SEAL operators are very dangerous men, but you'd still be asking them to do something they aren't really equipped or organized to do, and if you told a couple SEAL teams, "Tell me how you'd take out this Marine battalion" the last answer they'd give you was, "Well, we'll engage them in a pitched battle and defeat them by virtue of our superior training."

Marines aren't SEALs, but like SEALs, and unlike Sororitas, pitched battle is not what they do. So this one comes down to numbers, I think. Several marine chapters is a lot of marines - more marines than you'll necessarily find Sororitas in one place. My personal rule of thumb is that if the marines get to fight the way they want to, ten marines are worth approximately forty Sororitas, although I've completely made up that ratio out of thin air. If the Sororitas and storm troopers can bring the marines to battle not on the marines' terms (which will be very difficult, as the marines have a decisive mobility advantage in the form of their Thunderhawks), I would not be at all surprised if 4,000 Sororitas can defeat 3,000 marines.
Marines attacking a Sororitas/storm trooper force through a series of commando raids - this is what marines do, and they're better equipped for it than anybody in the Imperium. Find a vulnerable target, hit it via Thunderhawk, drop pod, and teleporter before it can be reinforced, and then run away via Thunderhawk. Rinse and repeat. If they can continue to fight this way, I imagine a couple marine chapters could take on many times their number of Sororitas and storm troopers. Victory for the Sororitas and storm troopers in this scenario would depend upon finding a way to stop the raids. Holing up in a fortress is one way to do this. A more aggressive way would be to use the storm troopers' own attached Valkyries to counter-raid the marines. The difficulty there is that the marines can and will retreat to space to prevent this. What the Sororitas and storm troopers would really need in this situation is serious anti-air assets, probably in the form of Guard or PDF Hydras, SAM batteries, or ground-based Navy fighter squadrons. Knock out the Thunderhawks and the ability of a marine chapter to fight the way it wants to is seriously reduced, which would increase the ability of the Sororitas and storm troopers to bring the marines to pitched battle.
That's how I'd analyze that hypothetical, anyway.

EDIT: I focus mostly on the Sororitas precisely because they are the troops that are trained and equipped for conventional engagements. Storm troopers, like marines, are fundamentally special forces operators. The trouble is that they don't have their own spacecraft, which means that most of the time there would be nothing for the storm troopers to raid, since most of the time the space marines are going to withdraw to their strike cruisers and battle barges. Thus, the storm troopers will be largely forced to fight as airborne infantry, a mission which in any but the direst circumstances is a gross waste, and likely to result in high casualties for the storm troopers.

EDIT 2: In the pitched battle scenario, I'm making some assumptions about Sororitas armor, particularly that Exorcists are a normal part of their motor pools. That is, admittedly, a big if. We know that the Prioris pattern is very rare, with some vehicles dating back to the Age of Apostasy when the design was first produced. It's less clear to me how rare the Sanctorum pattern is. Certainly the Sanctorum pattern doesn't look particularly old, which leads me to believe that it might be more common.

[Just_Me]

like i said, it would be a rather think stretch, hence the what if...


But I think what im trying to ask now, could the Sisters + Inquisitorial Stormtroopers hold up to the weight of a combined assault of multiple marine chapters?

One chapter sure... but you (as an example) would have the DA, plus all their successors, or the Ultramarines and all of THEIR successors etc.

I think what we are having trouble with is two things.

First this isn’t even really a “stretch,” the hypothetical you are proposing is so far-fetched with so many variables and unlikely circumstances having to coincide for anything like what you are describing to happen that it is very hard to consider it at all. It’s like asking who would win in a cage fight between the Emperor and a giant radioactive crab in a wetsuit, one gets so hung up on the absurdity of the situation that it’s hard to make rational comparisons.

The second is the vagueness of the conditions you have outlined, how many Stormtroopers are we talking about? How many marines? Do you literally mean a whole chapter in its entirety (unlikely, marines virtually never fight this way)? Is the Inquisition force involved defending a fortress, or are they all just fighting on a continent wide Imperial parking lot? The variables and vagaries of terrain and conditions make any battle hard to predict, a single soldier with a sniper rifle could hold up and entire division if he were defending a mountain pass. And all of that is just very basic ground level tactical stuff, not even considering things like air-support, let alone strategic and logistical questions. This unpredictability is why we even play wargames, otherwise a 40k game would go like this; “oh you brought marines? Well I brought Witch Hunters, and everyone knows that marines would beat Witch Hunters, so you win, good game!”

[Nabterayl]

like i said, it would be a rather think stretch, hence the what if...


But I think what im trying to ask now, could the Sisters + Inquisitorial Stormtroopers hold up to the weight of a combined assault of multiple marine chapters?

One chapter sure... but you (as an example) would have the DA, plus all their successors, or the Ultramarines and all of THEIR successors etc.
It just occurred to me that you might be trying to get an idea of the balance of military power between the Inquisition and the Astartes. That's an easier question to answer, though the short answer is, "We don't know." Long answer:

There are more Ordos within the Inquisition than the Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Xenos, and Ordo Malleus. The lesser Ordos are still part of the Inquisition, but they don't have (as far as we know) Chambers Militant. So those Ordos have far, far less inherent military power than even a single space marine chapter. Of course, any inquisitor even in one of the lesser Ordos could in theory impress the entire Imperial Guard.

We don't know how many inquisitorial storm troopers there are in the entire Inquisition, within any given Ordo, or even in the service of any given inquisitor. Fluff-wise, it's doubtful that anybody knows the precise number at any given time. Real-world wise, this seems like one of those things GW is never going to tell us. Certainly they never have told us. So this number gets to remain a big unknown. It is complicated by the fact that, fluff-wise, inquisitors sometimes permanently induct Guard units into their household troops. Detachment D-99, formerly D Company of the 99th Elysian Drop Troop regiments, is one known example of this. These are not storm troopers, but they are permanent Inquisitorial troops outside of the Chambers Militant.

The amount of information we have about the Chambers Militant varies. About the Deathwatch we know almost nothing, except that they're a seemingly permanent space marine chapter whose membership is not permanent (just like military formations today - the regiment stays the same, even though its members come and go). Is it a codex chapter? If not, how big is it? Does it include armor? We just don't know. The actual capabilities of the Deathwatch are a big black hole in our knowledge.

The Grey Knights we know something more about. Our best information puts their numbers at about three thousand marines. The Daemonhunters codex implies that the Grey Knights are effectively part of the Ordo Malleus. We don't know much about their organization, but they seem to be more efficiently organized than most marines, in that they don't appear to have this silly quasi-British battle company/reserve company distinction. The Grey Knights are also, of course, powerful psykers, and seem to have somewhat more Land Raiders per 1,000 marines than normal. Against this we may balance the fact that Grey Knight storm bolters are strictly side arms (each clip has only 20 rounds); unlike on the tabletop, Grey Knights are definitely intended and equipped primarily to fight hand to hand. All in all it's probably fair to say that the Grey Knights are worth four to six normal space marine chapters in terms of overall combat power.

The Adepta Sororitas we know less about than the Grey Knights, in some ways. We have a pretty good idea (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2907) of their combat power per sister, what their mission is, what they'd be good at and what they wouldn't. We know that, although their Orders Militant are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sororitas are not formally part of the Ordo Hereticus (formally, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy). Instead, at the Convocation of Nephilim, the Sororitas agreed to fight for the Ordo Hereticus when called. Unfortunately, we don't know how many sisters there are in the Orders Militant, which is the real question. We know that preceptories are formations of 1,000 sisters apiece, but we don't know how many preceptories are in an Order, or even what the ballpark range is. We don't even know how big the various Orders Militant Majoris are, or how much of the pie they make up compared to the Orders Militant Minoris. Thus, it is impossible to estimate how much combat power they represent collectively. It's not even possible to estimate, say, whether the Order of the Sacred Rose could take on the Dark Angels in a one-on-one.

When it comes to the Chambers Militant, there's another variable that further muddies the soup. Each of the Chambers Militant are primarily loyal to the Emperor - the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch because they are space marines, and the Sororitas because that's how they roll. Thus, depending on the reason for a marine attack against any of their respective Ordos, there's no guarantee that the Chambers Militant would fight at all - or that they wouldn't fight on the marines' side.

Is any of this getting at the question you're really trying to ask?

[Just_Me]

Also, in general we have been discussing the Inquisition here as if it were a single unified organization when this is emphatically not the case. Each Inquisitor is essentially a power in and of his/herself. Some have permanent household contingents that are small armies, others only have a handful of loyal retainers. Some prefer to operate primarily or entirely behind the scenes and may rarely if ever persecute a military action (Ravenor and Eisenhorn for example), others are quite willing and capable of taking overt and direct military action (Cortez and Rex come to mind). Each and every one of them is a potential wild card, you don’t become an Inquisitor at all by being anything less than exceptional, and some of the most potent psykers in the Imperium (with abilities that can turn the tides of entire battles) are Inquisitors (Ravenor and Rex once again are good examples), and even the meanest of non-psyker Inquisitors will be capable of astonishing feats of skill and determination.

Thus the Inquisition is incredibly hard to quantify. Supposing one was to consider the unified military capability directly under the control of the Inquisition as a whole in purely quantifiable terms (e.g. how many men under arms, how many tanks, relative quality of war material, etc.) then I am fairly sure that the Inquisition would come up woefully short of the all of the true dedicated military arms of the Imperium. But on the other hand this comparison would be meaningless as the Inquisition would induct forces from other Imperial organizations as needed, and the force-multiplying effects of each Inquisitor would be completely incalculable.

[Aenir]

yeah, that hits it a bit more clearly, I am sorry for the vague post :)

So what im getting from this however, is that Since all these fighters are loyal to emp. first, not the inquisition

So in the thing mentioned earlier (All inquisitors asend to daemonhood) other than their own troops would they have anything to pull from?


To the other posters:

How about a planetary invasion

IE a traditional (@ least on TT campaign), start with Planet Strike, run a couple of missions, then finish it off with an apoc)

how would that equate into the background?

[Melissia]

Also, in general we have been discussing the Inquisition here as if it were a single unified organization when this is emphatically not the case.

I already said that >.>



Your scenario is just so far fetched that it's just... illogical to even think about. Why should all Inquisitors ascend to daemonhood? Some inquisitors are Ex-Sororitas and quite possibly even Ex-Astartes, and, quite frankly, there are factions within the Inquisition that, even IF they were potentially heretical (which itself is a stretch), if one group turned daemonic the second one would side with the Imperium simply out of spite for the first group.

The Inquisition theoretically can call upon the entire Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy. If you're going to do what ifs and extremes, quite frankly no single enemy in 40K can withstand the amount of forces they can call upon even without their Orders Militant, but of all Inquisitors turned daemonic for some stupid reason (what kind of a lame-*** writer do you have to be to seriously consider putting something so contrived and random into a book?), they likely couldn't call on ANY loyal Imperial forces, EVER. But they probably could call upon daemonic and chaotic forces instead.

I doubt even all of the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers would side with them if they saw evidence of Inquisitors turning into daemons. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are considered the cream of the crop, the top two percent (or less even) of all stormtroopers to graduate from the Schola Progenium-- the same school that initially trains Sororitas and Commissars.

[Nabterayl]

So in the thing mentioned earlier (All inquisitors asend to daemonhood) other than their own troops would they have anything to pull from?
Well, if all the inquisitors in the Imperium ascended to daemonhood overnight, they wouldn't have anybody to pull from; even their own household troops would turn on them. Of course, that's not how it would work; it's not like the Chaos gods just hand out daemonhood willy nilly. There are Chaos legionnaires who have served the dark gods for 10,000 years who haven't hit daemonhood yet.

A much more plausible scenario is that an inquisitor falls to Chaos over a period of time, quite possibly by accident, and take his household troops with him. In that sort of scenario it's highly unlikely that any troops from his Ordo's Chamber Militant would follow him.


To the other posters:

How about a planetary invasion

IE a traditional (@ least on TT campaign), start with Planet Strike, run a couple of missions, then finish it off with an apoc)

how would that equate into the background?
You could spin it a couple of different ways. If you wanted to be fairly literal about it, even an Apocalypse game probably represents a very small battle. For instance, the 12th Tallarn Armored regiment, a fairly typical Imperial Guard tank regiment, at the time of the Taros campaign, fielded one hundred and fifty nine Leman Russes, eleven Baneblades, ninety Sentinels, one hundred and six Chimeras, forty-eight Basilisks, twenty Hydras, and seventy-nine Salamanders, plus support vehicles. One regiment - one of two that fought in the Taros invasion, which was a small invasion by Imperial Guard standards. Since even the largest Apocalypse battle you're likely to be able to play is a tiny, tiny engagement by 40K standards, you have the luxury of making your campaign be about a single rogue inquisitor if you want it to be.

In fact, let's say you don't want to be quite that literal about it, but still want to run a campaign wherein marines from several chapters invade a planet and do battle with one or more inquisitorial players. That can still be quite a small number of inquisitors - as small as one - fluff-wise. Keep in mind the following:
Even a single rogue inquisitor could induct into his service as many Guardsmen and PDF troopers as he could lay his hands on. A handful of rogue inquisitors could easily possibly command tens of thousands of soldiers.
While the Chambers Militant would be unlikely to fight for a rogue inquisitor, it's not like rogue inquisitors go around with a flashing sign over their head that says "Rogue." Very often in 40K it's not clear who's rogue and who isn't. If you want, say, sisters of battle to fight with your inquisitor(s) in your campaign, it's easy enough to say that they simply disagree with the invading marines that the inquisitor has done anything wrong, and are going to fight to protect him or her.
A codex marine chapter has very limited manpower. In fact, merely crewing every vehicle in the chapter's armory will take most of the Sixth and Seventh Companies (organizationally, the reserve companies are really there to support the battle companies, which means that a marine chapter really has basically five "fighting" companies, plus support). As a result, chapter masters tend to be very cagey with their use of men. I won't say that they're cowards (unless I'm having a *****-fest with Melissia about how much I love to hate marines ;)), but they're very aware of how few men they can afford to lose. If you ask a chapter master to do a job that will take 1,000 marines to complete, he'll most likely tell you no - because that would mean putting his entire chapter at risk of annihilation, and very, very few missions are worth that to a chapter master. Instead, he'd try to get a coalition of chapters together, each of which only contributes a few hundred men, so that no one chapter is at risk of getting wiped out just because the mission goes south. It's not like the Ultramarines allocate all ten companies to a mission, then ask the Imperial Fists to allocate all ten of their companies to the mission, and then ask the Blood Angels to allocate all ten of their companies. If a mission requires that many marines, the Ultramarines would try to get, say, fifteen chapters each to commit two companies.

What this means is that you can have a reasonable multi-chapter marine force in your campaign without the mission being so big that it requires the full resources of multiple marine chapters.

Helpful?

[Melissia]

And let's face it, even contributing just a single company is considered a major military investment for the Astartes chapters. They'd normally put in a couple squads at most.

[Ivarr]

Well, if all the inquisitors in the Imperium ascended to daemonhood overnight, they wouldn't have anybody to pull from; even their own household troops would turn on them. Of course, that's not how it would work; it's not like the Chaos gods just hand out daemonhood willy nilly. There are Chaos legionnaires who have served the dark gods for 10,000 years who haven't hit daemonhood yet.

A much more plausible scenario is that an inquisitor falls to Chaos over a period of time, quite possibly by accident, and take his household troops with him. In that sort of scenario it's highly unlikely that any troops from his Ordo's Chamber Militant would follow him.


You could spin it a couple of different ways. If you wanted to be fairly literal about it, even an Apocalypse game probably represents a very small battle. For instance, the 12th Tallarn Armored regiment, a fairly typical Imperial Guard tank regiment, at the time of the Taros campaign, fielded one hundred and fifty nine Leman Russes, eleven Baneblades, ninety Sentinels, one hundred and six Chimeras, forty-eight Basilisks, twenty Hydras, and seventy-nine Salamanders, plus support vehicles. One regiment - one of two that fought in the Taros invasion, which was a small invasion by Imperial Guard standards. Since even the largest Apocalypse battle you're likely to be able to play is a tiny, tiny engagement by 40K standards, you have the luxury of making your campaign be about a single rogue inquisitor if you want it to be.

In fact, let's say you don't want to be quite that literal about it, but still want to run a campaign wherein marines from several chapters invade a planet and do battle with one or more inquisitorial players. That can still be quite a small number of inquisitors - as small as one - fluff-wise. Keep in mind the following:
Even a single rogue inquisitor could induct into his service as many Guardsmen and PDF troopers as he could lay his hands on. A handful of rogue inquisitors could easily possibly command tens of thousands of soldiers.
While the Chambers Militant would be unlikely to fight for a rogue inquisitor, it's not like rogue inquisitors go around with a flashing sign over their head that says "Rogue." Very often in 40K it's not clear who's rogue and who isn't. If you want, say, sisters of battle to fight with your inquisitor(s) in your campaign, it's easy enough to say that they simply disagree with the invading marines that the inquisitor has done anything wrong, and are going to fight to protect him or her.
A codex marine chapter has very limited manpower. In fact, merely crewing every vehicle in the chapter's armory will take most of the Sixth and Seventh Companies (organizationally, the reserve companies are really there to support the battle companies, which means that a marine chapter really has basically five "fighting" companies, plus support). As a result, chapter masters tend to be very cagey with their use of men. I won't say that they're cowards (unless I'm having a *****-fest with Melissia about how much I love to hate marines ;)), but they're very aware of how few men they can afford to lose. If you ask a chapter master to do a job that will take 1,000 marines to complete, he'll most likely tell you no - because that would mean putting his entire chapter at risk of annihilation, and very, very few missions are worth that to a chapter master. Instead, he'd try to get a coalition of chapters together, each of which only contributes a few hundred men, so that no one chapter is at risk of getting wiped out just because the mission goes south. It's not like the Ultramarines allocate all ten companies to a mission, then ask the Imperial Fists to allocate all ten of their companies to the mission, and then ask the Blood Angels to allocate all ten of their companies. If a mission requires that many marines, the Ultramarines would try to get, say, fifteen chapters each to commit two companies.

What this means is that you can have a reasonable multi-chapter marine force in your campaign without the mission being so big that it requires the full resources of multiple marine chapters.

Helpful?

Bear in mind though that all of this makes sense in the fluff because of the ridiculous numbers of guardsman available in any given system. And in the fluff a marine chapter committing a few squads is a lot when all of it works out...after all 2-3 squads of marine should be able to engage 1000s of guardsman and win. On the table top this does not seem much because the Marines are scaled back drastically and a small contingent of Marines would be run over by just a hundred guardsman or so.

[Nabterayl]

Bear in mind though that all of this makes sense in the fluff because of the ridiculous numbers of guardsman available in any given system.
As ponderous as it seems, the Guard is actually a mobile, offensive force. They have to be garrisoned somewhere, of course, but the job of system defense falls to the PDF, which is kind of a second class Guard. Not every system will be dripping in Guardsmen (or Navy squadrons), but every system will have plenty of PDF to be dragooned. And of course, some systems will be dripping in Guardsmen.


And in the fluff a marine chapter committing a few squads is a lot when all of it works out...after all 2-3 squads of marine should be able to engage 1000s of guardsman and win.
I don't actually think that's true. Thousands of guardsmen may not be able to stop two to three squads of marines from achieving their objective. But if you told thirty marines to literally go out and kill thousands of guardsmen, they would either a) fail or b) succeed, but only because the thirty marines have a strike cruiser that bombarded the guardsmen from orbit and the guardsmen had no way to hurt a starship. Remember that in a stand-up fight a hundred Avenging Sons were beaten by a single Tau hunter cadre (outnumbered roughly eight to one, with the marines lacking any armored support except for two dreadnoughts), and a hundred and fifty Red Hunters were wiped out to a man by a couple thousand heretic guardsmen and mutant rabble.

Fluff marines are good, but they're still mortal. Force them to fight in ways that are disadvantageous to them and they die just like everything else.

[Aenir]

"Fluff Marines:
http://1d4chan.org/images/9/9d/SlutPatrol_01.gif




TT Marines:


http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2008/3/Plasma-23124627.jpg




Could it been they were doomed b/c of the lack of armor instead of the Numbers?

Either that or he suffered from the DOW Sgt. Idiotness :D





Hmm, I always thought that if they deemed it neccessary, they would commit the whole chapter, its rare but it has been done

[Melissia]

Even in fluff, Marines get killed with some frequency. A single stray meltagun shot will utterly destroy a Marine, for example, and even a Marine would probably not relish the idea of facing down a barrage of multilaser/heavy bolter fire from a well-led armored fist platoon-- their armor will fail eventually. And let's not forget that Battle Cannons really ARE that devastating, and the Guard has ridiculous amounts of them when in major engagements-- in major conflicts, there are quite easily more Leman Russ tanks than there are Marines in a chapter.

[Just_Me]

I already said that >.>

No need to get defensive, I am fully aware that you already mentioned Inquisition factionalism. What I was saying was that the general tone of the thread has been to talk about “the Inquisition” as if it were a single body, and this is of course misleading, as I am sure most of us already know.


Your scenario is just so far fetched that it's just... illogical to even think about. Why should all Inquisitors ascend to daemonhood? Some inquisitors are Ex-Sororitas and quite possibly even Ex-Astartes, and, quite frankly, there are factions within the Inquisition that, even IF they were potentially heretical (which itself is a stretch), if one group turned daemonic the second one would side with the Imperium simply out of spite for the first group.
...

I doubt even all of the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers would side with them if they saw evidence of Inquisitors turning into daemons. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are considered the cream of the crop, the top two percent (or less even) of all stormtroopers to graduate from the Schola Progenium-- the same school that initially trains Sororitas and Commissars.


Well, if all the inquisitors in the Imperium ascended to daemonhood overnight, they wouldn't have anybody to pull from; even their own household troops would turn on them. Of course, that's not how it would work; it's not like the Chaos gods just hand out daemonhood willy nilly. There are Chaos legionnaires who have served the dark gods for 10,000 years who haven't hit daemonhood yet.

A much more plausible scenario is that an inquisitor falls to Chaos over a period of time, quite possibly by accident, and take his household troops with him. In that sort of scenario it's highly unlikely that any troops from his Ordo's Chamber Militant would follow him.

I am fairly certain that the example of “all of the Inquisitors spontaneously ascending to Daemonhood” is not be presented as a serious possibility, rather as a “plot device” to of sorts to represent a set of circumstances wherein ALL marines would simultaneously go to war with the ENTIRE Inquisition. Think of it as the plot hole through which Yoda falls to end up in Soul Calibur IV, we just don't try to take it seriously, get over the fact that it makes no sense, and proceed to the mindless button mashing :D.

Moving on, as to the question of whether a handful of Marines represents the tactical equivalent of many hundreds of Guardsmen, I agree that as long as the Guard are able to fight "their" war the answer is no. But I have no problems believing those figures if the Astartes are able to dictate the battle, in close ranged fire fights, say through the halls of a ship or corridors of a building, where the Guard have no ability to bring their heavier elements to bear. If we arbitrarily decide to lock 20 Astartes in a (very big) room with 1000 Guardsmen sans mechanized support, I would actually put my money on the Astartes.

The problem with this entire debate is that the match-ups and comparisons are getting so ludicrously contrived, hypothetical, and arbitrary as to be useless. Sure, maybe if we locked a series of various different numbers and combinations of Imperial troops in a room together and told them to fight it out we might in the end know who has bragging rights over whom, but this would tell us absolutely nothing about the relative effectiveness of Imperial military organizations as a whole, and even less about the power dynamic between said forces (and yes, I am aware of the irony of something telling use "less than nothing").


To the other posters:

How about a planetary invasion

IE a traditional (@ least on TT campaign), start with Planet Strike, run a couple of missions, then finish it off with an apoc)

how would that equate into the background?

I am intrigued, is all of this really intended to generate information for a narrative campaign (an undertaking I wholeheartedly approve of by the way) of some sort? If so you will likely find it more effective to ask more direct and specific questions, rather the incredibly open ended ones we are all evidently trying and to answer.

[Aenir]

no, but i am using the ideas for a campaign down the line perhaps :)

It all started when i had a discussion with my buddy who swore up and down that the Astartes would have NO chance vs the inqusition, which I disagreed with, but as we could not come to an agreement, I decided to ask the Knowlegeable posters of BOLS (and Melissa, the Resident Soritas :D)

PS: Is it possible Melissa is a Sister of Battle who got lost in the Warp and ended up here? :)

[Just_Me]

PS: Is it possible Melissa is a Sister of Battle who got lost in the Warp and ended up here? :)

Nope, not a possibility. It is a virtual certainty :D.

Seriously though listen to what she says about the Sororitas (and the rest of 40k lore for that matter), she really seems to know her stuff…

[Aenir]

its an agent of the inquisition!!

Quick, assemble the Marines!!!

[Nabterayl]

no, but i am using the ideas for a campaign down the line perhaps :)

It all started when i had a discussion with my buddy who swore up and down that the Astartes would have NO chance vs the inqusition, which I disagreed with, but as we could not come to an agreement, I decided to ask the Knowlegeable posters of BOLS (and Melissa, the Resident Soritas :D)

PS: Is it possible Melissa is a Sister of Battle who got lost in the Warp and ended up here? :)
Heh. Your buddy is totally wrong ... in the "real world" of 40K. I mean, if he wants to have some kind of hypothetical grudge match, the Astartes have no chance against a single Inquisitor ... as long as that Inquisitor gets to induct whatever troops he wants :p


And in THIS corner, we have ... a million space marines!

<Cheers>

And in THIS corner, we have Inquisitor Bralok ... and one hundred billion Imperial Guardsmen! And the ENTIRE Battlefleet Obscuras! And six Titan Legions! And five hundred trillion civilians, each armed with his or her very own suicide pack. But wait, folks, he's just getting started. He also has ...

<Sound of a million space marine jaws hitting the floor>

[Aenir]

"the betting begins at 0/1000, a bet of 0 dollars on bender would win 1000 if he should win...still, very few takers!"


He was also mentioning that each inquisitor at any inquisitorial base would have as many storm troopers as a chapter, in addition, they would not be awed at the space marine mystique, as they are trained to fight chaos

Would you agree?

[crazyredpraetorian]

The SWs sent the Inquisition packing, once. I think the Inquisition knows which battles they can win and those that they can't.

[Sam]

Heh. Your buddy is totally wrong ... in the "real world" of 40K. I mean, if he wants to have some kind of hypothetical grudge match, the Astartes have no chance against a single Inquisitor ... as long as that Inquisitor gets to induct whatever troops he wants :p


And in THIS corner, we have ... a million space marines!

<Cheers>

And in THIS corner, we have Inquisitor Bralok ... and one hundred billion Imperial Guardsmen! And the ENTIRE Battlefleet Obscuras! And six Titan Legions! And five hundred trillion civilians, each armed with his or her very own suicide pack. But wait, folks, he's just getting started. He also has ...

<Sound of a million space marine jaws hitting the floor>

Going light on the Guardsmen, I see. :D

[Just_Me]

"the betting begins at 0/1000, a bet of 0 dollars on bender would win 1000 if he should win...still, very few takers!"


He was also mentioning that each inquisitor at any inquisitorial base would have as many storm troopers as a chapter, in addition, they would not be awed at the space marine mystique, as they are trained to fight chaos

Would you agree?

They could have that many (and a few most likely do), but probably not, at least not under their personal command. And even so, what of it? At one-to-one ratios in a stand-up fight Astartes trump everyone.

It is true they would regard the Astartes with less superstition than the average civilian, and would certainly be used to facing the gribbly horrors of a hostile universe, but at the same time he/she is likely to have a very real understanding of just how deadly an Astartes can be. Take Eisenhorn, just about the balliest guy ever, faced down giant monsters, battle titans, and Daemonhosts but still knew enough to instantly fell back at the prospect of engaging a single Chaos Marine in close combat.

[Nabterayl]

"the betting begins at 0/1000, a bet of 0 dollars on bender would win 1000 if he should win...still, very few takers!"


He was also mentioning that each inquisitor at any inquisitorial base would have as many storm troopers as a chapter, in addition, they would not be awed at the space marine mystique, as they are trained to fight chaos

Would you agree?
I don't think we have any idea how many storm troopers are at a given inquisitorial base. A whole regiment? A company? I'm sure there are bases that large and bases that small.

I do agree that inquisitors would not be "awed" by the space marine "mystique" - partially because they're trained to fight Chaos, but mostly just because they've seen more of the Imperium than 99% of its citizens. I mean, to be honest with you, I don't think storm troopers would be "awed" by the space marine "mystique," simply because they're trained to do the same jobs - space marines have advantages that storm troopers can't ever hope to have, but fundamentally, I think to a storm trooper, a space marine is just a really, really awesome fighting man. Not a sky god. Not an angel of death (except in a poetic sense). Just the finest warrior you're ever likely to meet. I think that's how an inquisitor would look at a space marine too.

Which means, as crazedredpraetorian says, an inquisitor would have plenty of respect for space marine opponents. It's hard to have respect for an opponent that you only half-jokingly view as a manifestation of God. Once you view that opponent as a mere man - a very hard, very driven, very dangerous man - then you can start having real respect for what they can do.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Just a side comment for those whom overvalue the Astartes: don't let the arrogance of the Astartes get in the way of the simple fact that the Inquisition can, if it really wants to, destroy an Astartes chapter completely and utterly. It has done so in the past and it will do so in the future. The Marines are valuable, but the treason is a crime worse than heresy and punishment will come, even if not immediately or directly.



HA! Through treachery and surprise, never through open engagement. The Inquisition could never hope to openly oppose a Space Marine chapter so they use underhanded tactics, like the Pope on the Knights Templar.

[Aldramelech]

This is all a bit daft really. Its like saying "What would happen if the Royal Marines decided to attack the British Army?"
It ain't gonna happen........

Its the old "If Cavemen and Astronauts had a fight, who would win?" argument adapted to 40K.

[Melissia]

HA! Through treachery and surprise, never through open engagement. The Inquisition could never hope to openly oppose a Space Marine chapter so they use underhanded tactics, like the Pope on the Knights Templar.

For most chapters, all the Inquisition would have to do is manufacture a good enough reason and they'd be able to literally just wipe them off the face of history. I point towards the Flame Falcons as a good example, a group that was utterly wiped out by the Inquisition and the Grey Knights with only a handful escaping their wrath. The Relictors faced a similar fate as well. In fact, pretty much only the most famous and beloved of chapters-- such as the Space Wolves-- can openly defy the Inquisition and get away with it. If a bit of fluff tries to claim thta the Inquisition can do nothing against any Marine chapter, though, it's wrong. Even the Space Wolves could very well be attacked and decimated by the Inquisition, the difference is that the Inquisition sees it in its best interest NOT to do so because these chapters are politically protected, and doing so would drain a great deal of political resources and probably weaken the Inquisition's pull as a whole.

This is mostly speaking of the Inquisition as a group, which I should put out caveats that yes, there are some Inquisitors who are so extreme that they WOULD do this. But they generally don't last long and don't have as much political power and sway as the more intelligent ones.

[Aenir]

we are only mentioning small chapters for the most part, what about the Ultramarines or Templar,could they be erased? (I do not believe so)

[Nabterayl]

Militarily, any single target can be erased by the Guard, as long as politically a large enough army group can be assembled. That's the trouble - yes, a billion Guardsmen can squash anything flat, but you're never going to be able to assemble a billion Guardsmen for a single campaign, because the Imperium has so much going on. Not even an inquisitor has a hope of getting a force that big - think of all the toes he'd have to step on to suck up that many resources (including the toes of other inquisitors, mind).

The real limiting factor in the Imperium's projection of combat power is political. There is no single entity in space that can match the might of the Imperial Navy. There is no single entity in space that can match the might of the Imperial Guard. (EDIT: Okay, maybe a tyranid hive fleet. Maybe.) And yet the Guard doesn't win every campaign it undertakes. Why? Because politics prevent the proper resources from being allocated. Perhaps the supreme commander of the army is an incompetent political appointee. Perhaps the wrong force mix is allocated to his group. Perhaps the supreme commander knows what he's doing, but can't get enough men and materiel. Perhaps he does everything right, but his plan relies on the assistance of special branches of the service such as titans or space marines, and the specialists never show up.

Politics are the real shield of famous and well-liked chapters such as the Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Could a large enough Navy and Guard strike force be assembled to squash those chapters flat, with absolutely no hope of victory for the marines? Of course it could. But Grimnar and Calgar have lots of allies within the Imperium. So anybody trying to assemble the requisite strike force will find, after going through the convoluted politicking required to get a strike force in the Imperium, that he goes in with not enough ships, and not enough men. Then the marines will fight off the strike force and everybody will prattle on about how invincible they are :p

They aren't invincible. They're well liked. Even in 40K, that matters a lot.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

This is all a bit daft really. Its like saying "What would happen if the Royal Marines decided to attack the British Army?"
It ain't gonna happen........

Its the old "If Cavemen and Astronauts had a fight, who would win?" argument adapted to 40K.

Except the Inquisition frequently attack Space Marine Chapters. See Melissa's post.


For most chapters, all the Inquisition would have to do is manufacture a good enough reason and they'd be able to literally just wipe them off the face of history. I point towards the Flame Falcons as a good example, a group that was utterly wiped out by the Inquisition and the Grey Knights with only a handful escaping their wrath. The Relictors faced a similar fate as well. In fact, pretty much only the most famous and beloved of chapters-- such as the Space Wolves-- can openly defy the Inquisition and get away with it. If a bit of fluff tries to claim thta the Inquisition can do nothing against any Marine chapter, though, it's wrong. Even the Space Wolves could very well be attacked and decimated by the Inquisition, the difference is that the Inquisition sees it in its best interest NOT to do so because these chapters are politically protected, and doing so would drain a great deal of political resources and probably weaken the Inquisition's pull as a whole.

This is mostly speaking of the Inquisition as a group, which I should put out caveats that yes, there are some Inquisitors who are so extreme that they WOULD do this. But they generally don't last long and don't have as much political power and sway as the more intelligent ones.

The Inquisition COULD theoretically manufacture a good enough reason to wipe out any Space Marine Chapter, what I am saying is the standard Imperial citizens/soldiers would never, ever through its support behind the Inquisition when faced with the choice between the Emperor's Personal Scions or the Inquisition. It would lead to civil war, between those too scared of the Inquisition and those who know the Space Marines are the Emperor's Chosen. The Inquisition would never be ale to do such a thing either, it is always single powerful anti-astartes inquisitors. Never unified action. Also, averages dictate that if there is a significant anti-marine contingent of inquisitors there has to be a pro-marine faction as well, and I would say this is the Horusians(if I am not Mistaken) who want to reignite the Great Crusade.


Militarily, any single target can be erased by the Guard, as long as politically a large enough army group can be assembled. That's the trouble - yes, a billion Guardsmen can squash anything flat, but you're never going to be able to assemble a billion Guardsmen for a single campaign, because the Imperium has so much going on. Not even an inquisitor has a hope of getting a force that big - think of all the toes he'd have to step on to suck up that many resources (including the toes of other inquisitors, mind).

The real limiting factor in the Imperium's projection of combat power is political. There is no single entity in space that can match the might of the Imperial Navy. There is no single entity in space that can match the might of the Imperial Guard. (EDIT: Okay, maybe a tyranid hive fleet. Maybe.) And yet the Guard doesn't win every campaign it undertakes. Why? Because politics prevent the proper resources from being allocated. Perhaps the supreme commander of the army is an incompetent political appointee. Perhaps the wrong force mix is allocated to his group. Perhaps the supreme commander knows what he's doing, but can't get enough men and materiel. Perhaps he does everything right, but his plan relies on the assistance of special branches of the service such as titans or space marines, and the specialists never show up.

Politics are the real shield of famous and well-liked chapters such as the Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Could a large enough Navy and Guard strike force be assembled to squash those chapters flat, with absolutely no hope of victory for the marines? Of course it could. But Grimnar and Calgar have lots of allies within the Imperium. So anybody trying to assemble the requisite strike force will find, after going through the convoluted politicking required to get a strike force in the Imperium, that he goes in with not enough ships, and not enough men. Then the marines will fight off the strike force and everybody will prattle on about how invincible they are :p

They aren't invincible. They're well liked. Even in 40K, that matters a lot.

Totally agree.


we are only mentioning small chapters for the most part, what about the Ultramarines or Templar,could they be erased? (I do not believe so)

Ultramarines could easily call their successors to their air, and the Inquisition would have a hell of a time trying to shut down the Templars. Since am I something of a Templar expert (and modest too ;) ) I will go into detail on this one. First the Templars are too spread out for punitive action to happen all at once. They have Crusades ranging from a single strike cruiser to entire Crusade Fleets spread all across the Imperium, they are impossible to tie down. Sure they have several major garrisons across the Imperium, and many more small ones that are rarely visited by the Chapter, but these are inconsequential as the Templars true power is its fleet. As probably the oldest of the Fleet Based Chapters, the Templars have been referenced as being some of the best Marine Naval Fighters. The Eternal Crusader is easily a match for any Capital ship, not because of its heavily augmented fire power and shielding, but its deadly passengers as well. The kicker is the Eternal Crusader is just the largest of the Templars many augmented Battlebarges. Any engagement with the Templars in space, while favoring the Imperial Naval forces the Inquisitor has duped, would not be as easily decided as against a normal Chapter. The official 'unofficial' BFG list included the option to include regular naval vessels in it the Fleet as well, so the Templars are hardly sticklers for the separation of powers clause.

[Aldramelech]

But many posts here are talking about an all out war between the Inquisition and several Space Marine Chapters, if not all of them. All of which is slightly irrelevant as the original question was "Do Space Marines answer to the Inquisition?"
Not who could duff up who behind the bike sheds......

P.s My Dads bigger then your dad!:p

[Nabterayl]

True, but I thought Aenir explained that the reason for the question was a debate over a hypothetical throw-down between "the Inquisition" and "the space marines," one of the arguments used being that "the Inquisition" would be able to split "the space marines" by inducting them. Hence all the posts about the hypothetical throw-down and variations thereon.

[The Sin of Pride]

Hasn't it been a long held premise that the Astartes answer to no one but the Emperor himself?

So any 'throwdow' would need a cast-iron reason, other than the usual purging of Chapters deemed as traitors.

[Melissia]

The Inquisition doesn't NEED popular support, Marshall2Crusaders. In fact, it's fairly unpopular as it is right now; the authority of the Inquisition does not come from popular support, but from the Emperor's Mandate.

[Nabterayl]

And also from the ignorance of the people it uses. I think you've overestimating the opinion Imperial subjects have of space marines, Marshal, and underestimating much Imperial Guardsmen really are soldiers. It's not a question of popularity; it's a question of what the fighting men and women really believe. If they really believe that any given space marine chapter has committed heresy, then it doesn't matter how popular the space marines in question might be (and I can't believe that they all are popular; if they were, the reputation of chapters such as the Imperial Fists and Salamanders wouldn't be remarkable). If they really believe that their regiment is more important than anything else (hardly a strange thing for even the most pious soldier to believe), then it doesn't matter how popular the space marines in question are, either. How many Guardsmen are going to refuse a lawfully given order because they think that space marines are the Emperor's Chosen? Not many, I wager.

The Inquisitorial attack on the Space Wolves is a good example. Grimnar is probably the single most popular space marine in the Imperium. And yet when the Inquisition attacked, the men and women who did the fighting didn't seem to have any problem doing their damndest.

Certainly, an inquisitor probably isn't going to get very good results from his inducted troops by saying, "I hate the Space Wolves; let's take them out!" But if he says, "Sadly, the Space Wolves have turned from the Light of the Emperor and refused all my entreaties to return to the fold. Now, men, you must be the sword of the Emperor's justice. Stand firm and do your duty to Mankind and the Emperor," popularity isn't going to cause some kind of mutiny in the ranks.

[Just_Me]

The Inquisition doesn't NEED popular support, Marshall2Crusaders. In fact, it's fairly unpopular as it is right now; the authority of the Inquisition does not come from popular support, but from the Emperor's Mandate.

Well, they do have popular support in a sense, they are just not popularly liked. People support and obey them out of either fear of reprisal or a sense of duty. If any one person or group decides to get over their fear and resist them then the Inquisition can call upon the vast majority of people who still support them (out of fear, or whatever) and squash the upstart(s).

The irony of course is that if everyone were to suddenly decide that they don’t want to listen to the Inquisition anymore, the Inquisition would basically be powerless to do anything about it. So in a sense the Inquisition does hold power through popular support, even though they aren’t well liked.

In fact even though they aren’t liked (and most people outright fear and/or despise them) they are respected, as they are seen as holy servants of the Emperor doing their duty, however distasteful that duty may be (i.e. the Emperor's Mandate that you mentioned).

[The Sin of Pride]

You know what they say; It's better to be feared than loved.

Part of the power of the Inquisition lies in the fact that they are feared, but would the Astartes really fear them?
And They Shall Know No Fear.. springs to mind!

[Nabterayl]

Of course they wouldn't fear the Inquisition. But not being afraid of something and recognizing that it can kill you are two different things. When we say that space marines don't care about the Inquisition, I think what we really mean is that most space marines are well aware of how much they can flout the Inquisitorial Mandate before a) violating their honor or b) getting the Inquisition pissed off enough at them that their chapter is at risk.

[Melissia]

Which includes complete and utter decimation of their chapter down to the last scout.

[Ole]

Wouldn't it be enough to "just" kill a great deal of normal marines - and especially Apothecaries - to ensure their doom? I mean, in the long term, chapters without geneseed are going to die. Of course, I can't see that happening except in case of outright treason by the marines, but then again stuff like that did happen, right?

[Crevab]

The Celestial Lions are a prime example of what the Inquisition can do when perturbed. And the Flame Falcons when they think something is wrong.

[Aenir]

never heard of those chapters before, what successors are they?

[Aegis]

Forgive the lightness of the comment, but one good argument for a marine chapter to listen to Inquisitorial authority: Exterminatus.

With the authority to effectively scorch an entire planet, and its inhabitants, 7 ways from Sunday, and have it be recognized by the High Lords of Terra, pragmatism can easily replace fear as the prime motivator, and could make a chapter fall into line.

[Crevab]

Unsure of who they're from. A quick glance at Lexicanum revealed little.

But anyway, the Celestial Lions had just completed a campaign to purge a world of heretics, but the Inquisitor at hand wanting a bit more thoroughness wiped the population. The Lions objected and began a campaign seeking an investigation. A bunch of senior officers were heading to Terra to continue in person when theirship got blown into Ork territory by a freak warp storm and destroyed. Suuuuure. When Armageddon 3 started, they committed all their forces, which they lost rather quickly. Bad intel lead them into traps, "ork snipers" killed all the apothecaries, and the like.

The Flame Falcons burst into flame. The immolation didn't hurt the marines, but their foes got quite crispy. Everyone thought it a miracle except the Inquisitor sent to investigate. They were declared Excommunicate Traitoris and got purged by the Grey Knights. Though a rumored few survived. Shame I could never find an official color scheme for the Falcons.

EDIT: oh, but the Falcons were part of the Cursed 21st founding

[Nabterayl]

Wouldn't it be enough to "just" kill a great deal of normal marines - and especially Apothecaries - to ensure their doom? I mean, in the long term, chapters without geneseed are going to die. Of course, I can't see that happening except in case of outright treason by the marines, but then again stuff like that did happen, right?

Certainly a chapter can be neutralized without killing every last marine. In fact, if you read between the lines a little, when the Ordo Hereticus goes after a marine chapter, killing every last marine doesn't seem to be Plan A. Take a look at the Ordo Hereticus strike force minidex here on BoLS, which contains the fluff information from the original GW article. Based on that, it looks like the preferred way to neutralize a marine chapter is to take out its headquarters staff, which probably includes torching its apothecarium, and then withdrawing before the rest of the chapter can respond.

[Just_Me]

Actually to most efficient way to wipe out a chapter would be for an Inquisitor to lead a small strike force (even a stormtrooper force) and capture/destroy their gene-seed bank. If they succeeded in capturing it they would have the chapter by the “purity seals” (so to speak… :D) and could impose whatever restrictions or penance they deemed appropriate. Otherwise if it were to be destroyed then the chapter would be doomed in the long run.

[Ivarr]

As ponderous as it seems, the Guard is actually a mobile, offensive force. They have to be garrisoned somewhere, of course, but the job of system defense falls to the PDF, which is kind of a second class Guard. Not every system will be dripping in Guardsmen (or Navy squadrons), but every system will have plenty of PDF to be dragooned. And of course, some systems will be dripping in Guardsmen.


I don't actually think that's true. Thousands of guardsmen may not be able to stop two to three squads of marines from achieving their objective. But if you told thirty marines to literally go out and kill thousands of guardsmen, they would either a) fail or b) succeed, but only because the thirty marines have a strike cruiser that bombarded the guardsmen from orbit and the guardsmen had no way to hurt a starship. Remember that in a stand-up fight a hundred Avenging Sons were beaten by a single Tau hunter cadre (outnumbered roughly eight to one, with the marines lacking any armored support except for two dreadnoughts), and a hundred and fifty Red Hunters were wiped out to a man by a couple thousand heretic guardsmen and mutant rabble.

Fluff marines are good, but they're still mortal. Force them to fight in ways that are disadvantageous to them and they die just like everything else.

I agree one hundred percent. The situation will always dictate. But, for every story like those, there is a story of a commander and his retinue literally holding off an entire Waaugh! at the front gates of their monastery or a small contingent of marines taking an objective that an entire regiment of IG could not.

"Sicarius's most famous battle to date stands as the Assault on Black Reach against the Ork Warlord Zanzag. The whole of the 2nd Company stood against ten thousand Orks. As their ammunition ran dry the Ultramarines fought with knife and chain sword until the last Ork fell. "

[Melissia]

Which is nothing more than fluffery making them sound epic. The Imperial Guard has its own epic last stands, but you hear less about them because GW wants to glorify the Marines.

[The Sin of Pride]

Which is nothing more than fluffery making them sound epic. The Imperial Guard has its own epic last stands, but you hear less about them because GW wants to glorify the Marines.

The Imperial Guard can be both epic and epically stupid.. But thats by the by.

I think what makes the last stand situations of the Astartes more epic is simply because of the relatively small numbers involved.
The average Guard regiment numbers in the thousands, for infantry, and the true fighting strength of a Chapter is usually aound the thousand mark.

[Melissia]

So can Marines. Marines are by no means more intelligent than the average human based on how they are written (rather than how they are intended to be), they merely typically have more experience.

Regardless, Guardsman last stands can also have very small numbers. In fact, the Guard's last stands are more epic than any Marine can ever be, because Guardsmen are the common human beings. Marines can never be as epic as the Guard.

But that's a debate for another thread.

[The Sin of Pride]

So can Marines. Marines are by no means more intelligent than the average human based on how they are written (rather than how they are intended to be), they merely typically have more experience.

Regardless, Guardsman last stands can also have very small numbers. In fact, the Guard's last stands are more epic than any Marine can ever be, because Guardsmen are the common human beings. Marines can never be as epic as the Guard.

But that's a debate for another thread.

I bow to your superior ability to present your argument coherently!

[Melissia]

Don't be a troll. I didn't want to drag this topic off topic, because that debate has raged on for dozens of pages in the past and really should have its own thread if it exists at all.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

In fact, the Guard's last stands are more epic than any Marine can ever be, because Guardsmen are the common human beings.

The most epic battle I ever saw was praetorian imperial guard out-numbered by necrons. It was like Zulu meets terminator and it was insanely awesome. So, I canny agree there.

[Aenir]

As far as strength goes, isnt the IG rather helpless if the Navy isnt there?

(by the by, are they 2 sep organizations like Inquis and astares, or more like different branches.. IE Army and Navy?)

At least if the Marines dont have their dropships, they can still cause havoc, without the navy, the IG seems like all it could do was sit on a fortress or something?

[Gotthammer]

Pre heresey there was only the Imperial Army, which was one huge conglomerate of Armour, Infanty and space fleets. After the heresey they were broken up inot totally seperate groups so the Fleet had nothing to take resources with, the Guard no way of getting around if they rebel.
The guard were further re-organised so that instead of joint arms regiments they were all infantry, or all armour etc. Again to limit their effectiveness should they revolt.

[Nabterayl]

As far as strength goes, isnt the IG rather helpless if the Navy isnt there?

(by the by, are they 2 sep organizations like Inquis and astares, or more like different branches.. IE Army and Navy?)

At least if the Marines dont have their dropships, they can still cause havoc, without the navy, the IG seems like all it could do was sit on a fortress or something?
Yes, if the Navy doesn't provide transport, the Guard cannot go anywhere. As part of its paranoid desire to prevent any single organization from having the power to threaten the Imperium from within ever again, all starships in the Imperium are either:
Part of the Imperial Fleet (which includes both the Navy and the merchant marine)
Part of the Adeptus Astartes
Part of the League of Black Ships
Part of the Inquisition (whose fleet seems to be far smaller than the number of inquisitors)
Owned by a Rogue Trader
None of those organizations, by itself, has the power to prosecute a full-scale ground war. The only organization that does have the power to prosecute a full-scale ground war is the Imperial Guard, and they don't have any ships. And by far the largest source of ships, of course, is the Imperial Fleet.

So you're quite right that the Astartes are more self-contained than the Guard (this is, by the way, the major reason that they are the Imperium's fast response force - they're the only ground troops in the Imperium that has their own starships). I don't know if I would call that stronger, but certainly more self-sufficient.

This is, by the way, why the Imperial Guard doesn't actually organize any of the Imperial Guard's offensives. When the Imperium goes to war, it's organized at the level of the Departmento Munitorum, which exists above the level of the Guard or the Navy (that way neither the Guard nor the Navy is ordering the other around, which helps to avoid some inter-service friction, even though of course the Munitorum must choose either a Guard or a Navy officer as supreme commander of the offensive).

[Denzark]

This is all a bit daft really. Its like saying "What would happen if the Royal Marines decided to attack the British Army?"
It ain't gonna happen........

Its the old "If Cavemen and Astronauts had a fight, who would win?" argument adapted to 40K.

Except after Millionaire's Weekend. And when there is women inolved. Or paras....

[Denzark]

OK, camel spider versus scorpion etc.

Here we go. The High lords of Terra - the highest governing body - have an Inquisitorial Representative on the board. Now and again, a chapter is declared excommunicatoris traitoris - ie Astral Claws. But was what the imperium (=High Lords) sent against them sufficient to prevent the escape of some 200 into the eye of terror?

No. Yes we hear of some chapters destroyed, particularly those whose geneseed turns up dodgy - cursed second founding anyone?

At the end of the day the power of a single space marine chapter should not be under estimated - even against guard firepower/numbers. At Badab all the rebel chapters were not destroyed outright.

The imperium, even with all its marines on side, and the Guard, has not been able to clear out the eye of terror - with 8 traitor chapters within - yes I know they are at legion strength but even if you say 15000 marines to a legion - very liberal estimate - thats only 120000 - less than a quarter of loyalist chapter numbers, not including IG and fleet. And the casualties the original traitors have taken in 10000 years of continuous warfare.

What I am trying to illustrate is that in terms of power, aka political influence and the ability to touch imperial citizens lives, the Inquisition is matchless. But in Space Marine systems, ie Ultramar and Fenris, etc, those worlds dance to the chapter tune - if there is ecclesiarch or inquisition presence it would be by permission only, espcecially fenris.

When it comes to combat power, there is only one thing the inquisition uses to take on Marines - other marines. Were the loyalists to wholesale rebel - cannonically unthinkable, there is insufficient combat power in the entire imperium to beat them - after all most marine chapters could probably use exterminatus if they wanted to - it is normally their ships dropping buckets of sunshine and life eaters for the inquisition any way.

[Melissia]

And yet, Marine territories are only a tiny minority, less than one hundredth of one percent at their very best-- that is the most optimistic outlook.

[Denzark]

True but combat power doesn't rely on territorial possessions alone.

[Melissia]

True but combat power doesn't rely on territorial possessions alone.

The 1/100 of one percent assumed that each chapter has ten worlds that it directly govern, which is generous as most would actually only have around one homeworld and two to five recruiting worlds.

There comes a point where it doesn't matter how elite your armed forces are if you are so outnumbered that you simply cannot deal with everything. The Marines would be hard pressed to protect even their homeworld against a dedicated Imperial attack. The Marines are independent and strong, but not THAT independent and strong.

[Denzark]

The 1/100 of one percent assumed that each chapter has ten worlds that it directly govern, which is generous as most would actually only have around one homeworld and two to five recruiting worlds.

There comes a point where it doesn't matter how elite your armed forces are if you are so outnumbered that you simply cannot deal with everything. The Marines would be hard pressed to protect even their homeworld against a dedicated Imperial attack. The Marines are independent and strong, but not THAT independent and strong.

Not taking into account home PDF - the Macragge system has hundreds of thousands of IG equivakents, as probably does other marine systems. And also concentration of force. As you refer to 'the marines' as if they are one entity, we'll go with that. As they are not tactical slouches, and are used to personal sacrifice, we could assume that some chapters would give up their worlds in areas of space hard to defend and mass in one region, and also all space borne chapters would concentrate there.

the inquisition itself cannot muster enough combat power and couldn't even by using those under order - fleet, guard, sisters. If so, why is the imperium still beset by Tau, Eldar, Tyranids etc even with the marines on side?

[AirHorse]

This topic was interesting till it turned into "I hate marines" vs "I love marines"...

In a vague attempt to be on topic, the inquisition generally only ever answers to itself, but luckily for the imperium the inquisition itself is most definately not united. If one inquisitor went too far(and it happens often enough to not be a total rarity) its more likely that the inquisition itself leads the hunt to bring said inquisitor to justice.

It is possible that the inquisition asks for some favours from other branches of the imperium(such as marines or other officies of the inquisition) but then they can also more or less turn up at an imperial guard recruitment world and say "give us you newest regiment ta, we are off hunting rogues".

[Kanaellars]

yeah, that hits it a bit more clearly, I am sorry for the vague post :)

So what im getting from this however, is that Since all these fighters are loyal to emp. first, not the inquisition

So in the thing mentioned earlier (All inquisitors asend to daemonhood) other than their own troops would they have anything to pull from?


To the other posters:

How about a planetary invasion

IE a traditional (@ least on TT campaign), start with Planet Strike, run a couple of missions, then finish it off with an apoc)

how would that equate into the background?



Read Ben Counter's "Grey Knight".

2 Rouge Inquisitors, 15 Grey Knights.... it turns an entire REGION of space into pure hell.

[Aenir]

is that a short story or is it in the omnibus?

I was thinking of getting the GK omni, but wasnt sure if it would be good or just all crazy religious nuts

[AirHorse]

grey knight omnibus is pretty decent, i liked it at least :P. Its pretty light on the zealotry which is nice and the main character is awesome. Gives a nice little bit of insight into how the grey knights operate alongside the inquisition too.

[Aenir]

I think i shall buy it then

on a more topic centric note, are the grey knights called for the inqusition only if there are daemons present?

b/c if so, they couldnt be counted on vs marines :|

[Just_Me]

I think i shall buy it then

on a more topic centric note, are the grey knights called for the inqusition only if there are daemons present?

b/c if so, they couldnt be counted on vs marines :|

That’s a tricky question. Nearly all of the fluff states pretty squarely that they are specifically an anti-daemon force, but the descriptions of some of their actions imply a more "anti-chaos in general" role, and there are more than a few examples of them acting against renegade Marines (particularly when chaos taint is believed present).

EDIT: And yes, the Grey Knights books are generally quite good, not up to Abnett standard (yes, I’m a bit of a rabid Abnett fan) but good. I liked the first two the best, though the third is worth the read.

[gorepants]

...but luckily for the imperium the inquisition itself is most definately not united. If one inquisitor went too far(and it happens often enough to not be a total rarity) its more likely that the inquisition itself leads the hunt to bring said inquisitor to justice...

I think this sums the situation up nicely, but does not go far enough. The whole Imperium is so fragmented by both politics and space that the idea of all of anyone ganging up on all of anyone else seems a little unlikely, so I've decided (for my first post no less!) to show how I think things would work with an analogy.

The Funk Marines (my Globetrotters themed army*) are chilling on the Globetrotter Homeworld when Inquisitor Stooge arrives with his retinue of straight men and says, 'excuse me my good men but could you wage some war on my behalf?'

Chaptermaster Tate questions the sucker Stooge's jive talk.

At this point we enter choose your a own adventure scenario:

1: Inquisitor Stooge carefully explains what is required and the Funk Marines realise that while he is a jive-talking stooge, their mission is suitably bad *** and they lay a hurting on someone.

or

2: Inquisitor Stooge fails to convince them of his mission so talks to Inquisitor T, who goes to the Globetrotter Homeworld and during a game of space basketball tells Chaptermaster Tate that Stooge is actually Inquisitor Holmes in a cunning disguise, that the plan only seems like foolery and he pities the fool who does not quit his jibber jabber and lay a hurting on someone.

or

3: Inquisitor Stooge threatens the Funk Marines with his army of stooges. Chaptermaster Tate calls in his old pal Inquisitor T, who quietly takes Stooge aside and explains to him that he pities the fool who talks jibber jabber to his friends, and (since this is 40K), has an assassin shoot him quietly in the back of the head cos that's how the Inquisition rolls.

or

4: Inquisitor Stooge is really Inquisitor Holmes in disguise and realises that the Funk Marines aren't the real Globetrotters, but have been replaced by very good Chaos voice actors. He gets Apothecary Watson to lay waste the Globetrotter homeworld from a good safe distance and raises a really big army of street urchins and loyal Space Marines to destroy the remnants of the false Funk Marines.

or

5:Inquisitor Stooge realises he's not getting anywhere, so shrugs his shoulders and goes begging to someone else.

*this is a lie. But an awesome one.

[Aenir]

Dont forget the bounce pass of timeskips off the hull of a nearby predator :D

[Aldramelech]

I think this sums the situation up nicely, but does not go far enough. The whole Imperium is so fragmented by both politics and space that the idea of all of anyone ganging up on all of anyone else seems a little unlikely, so I've decided (for my first post no less!) to show how I think things would work with an analogy.

The Funk Marines (my Globetrotters themed army*) are chilling on the Globetrotter Homeworld when Inquisitor Stooge arrives with his retinue of straight men and says, 'excuse me my good men but could you wage some war on my behalf?'

Chaptermaster Tate questions the sucker Stooge's jive talk.

At this point we enter choose your a own adventure scenario:

1: Inquisitor Stooge carefully explains what is required and the Funk Marines realise that while he is a jive-talking stooge, their mission is suitably bad *** and they lay a hurting on someone.

or

2: Inquisitor Stooge fails to convince them of his mission so talks to Inquisitor T, who goes to the Globetrotter Homeworld and during a game of space basketball tells Chaptermaster Tate that Stooge is actually Inquisitor Holmes in a cunning disguise, that the plan only seems like foolery and he pities the fool who does not quit his jibber jabber and lay a hurting on someone.

or

3: Inquisitor Stooge threatens the Funk Marines with his army of stooges. Chaptermaster Tate calls in his old pal Inquisitor T, who quietly takes Stooge aside and explains to him that he pities the fool who talks jibber jabber to his friends, and (since this is 40K), has an assassin shoot him quietly in the back of the head cos that's how the Inquisition rolls.

or

4: Inquisitor Stooge is really Inquisitor Holmes in disguise and realises that the Funk Marines aren't the real Globetrotters, but have been replaced by very good Chaos voice actors. He gets Apothecary Watson to lay waste the Globetrotter homeworld from a good safe distance and raises a really big army of street urchins and loyal Space Marines to destroy the remnants of the false Funk Marines.

or

5:Inquisitor Stooge realises he's not getting anywhere, so shrugs his shoulders and goes begging to someone else.

*this is a lie. But an awesome one.

LMAO That cheered me up!

[Aenir]

just because of that post, someone is gonna make a globetrotter themed SM army (using vulkan and friends of course :) )


Hey sweet, this thread is result #1 if you google globetrotter space marine!! WE ROCK!

[Cryl]

I think this sums the situation up nicely, but does not go far enough. The whole Imperium is so fragmented by both politics and space that the idea of all of anyone ganging up on all of anyone else seems a little unlikely, so I've decided (for my first post no less!) to show how I think things would work with an analogy.

The Funk Marines (my Globetrotters themed army*) are chilling on the Globetrotter Homeworld when Inquisitor Stooge arrives with his retinue of straight men and says, 'excuse me my good men but could you wage some war on my behalf?'

Chaptermaster Tate questions the sucker Stooge's jive talk.

At this point we enter choose your a own adventure scenario:

1: Inquisitor Stooge carefully explains what is required and the Funk Marines realise that while he is a jive-talking stooge, their mission is suitably bad *** and they lay a hurting on someone.

or

2: Inquisitor Stooge fails to convince them of his mission so talks to Inquisitor T, who goes to the Globetrotter Homeworld and during a game of space basketball tells Chaptermaster Tate that Stooge is actually Inquisitor Holmes in a cunning disguise, that the plan only seems like foolery and he pities the fool who does not quit his jibber jabber and lay a hurting on someone.

or

3: Inquisitor Stooge threatens the Funk Marines with his army of stooges. Chaptermaster Tate calls in his old pal Inquisitor T, who quietly takes Stooge aside and explains to him that he pities the fool who talks jibber jabber to his friends, and (since this is 40K), has an assassin shoot him quietly in the back of the head cos that's how the Inquisition rolls.

or

4: Inquisitor Stooge is really Inquisitor Holmes in disguise and realises that the Funk Marines aren't the real Globetrotters, but have been replaced by very good Chaos voice actors. He gets Apothecary Watson to lay waste the Globetrotter homeworld from a good safe distance and raises a really big army of street urchins and loyal Space Marines to destroy the remnants of the false Funk Marines.

or

5:Inquisitor Stooge realises he's not getting anywhere, so shrugs his shoulders and goes begging to someone else.

*this is a lie. But an awesome one.

That is brilliant. Utterly brilliant.

Make that army, make it now and post pics :D

[Aldramelech]

It wouldn't be very mobile, They'd all refuse to fly with that crazy fool!

[Aenir]

They would also have one bad *** gravity pump with all of terra's money


(anyway back onto topic)

in the situation someone mentioned earlier about loyalty to the regiment, how far does that go? if a trooper were to find that the officer was wrong, what happens? ( I remember reading somewhere that questioning an officer's orders is like questioning the emp. himself, but that is a whole nother thing)

[Nabterayl]

My guess is that, nine times out of ten, that trooper would do nothing. There's three things at work here. One is the normal soldierly devotion to his brothers in arms. Guardsmen are conscripted for life, so it's only natural that their squadmates (and platoon-mates, company-mates, etc.) would be the most important people in their lives. In addition to the normal bonds among soldiers under fire, a Guardsman effectively has no other family, nowhere else to go. I think it would take a LOT - more than mere piety for the vast majority of people - to motivate a man to rock that boat. Besides (and this is the second thing at work), doubting and punishing officers is what commissars are for. It would take any awful lot of guts for a Guardsman to do something that if a commissar had not already done it (and if the commissar had already ... corrected the officer, problem solved).

Against these two forces is every Imperial subject's duty to his Emperor. To be sure, if the commissar DOES fail to correct any officer, in theory the regular Guardsman should. But how many have the guts to do that - and, to be frank, the motivation? Standing up to any officer when even the commissar had not is a good way to get yourself shot for mutiny. For most Guardsman, I imagine it's just easier to keep their heads down and follow orders.

[Aldramelech]

"Fraging" unpopular Ruppert's is as old as warfare.......

[Melissia]

"Fraging" unpopular Ruppert's is as old as warfare.......

Bingo. It depends on the situation of course, but failure officers don't tend to live long, either through their own mistakes or because of the ire of their subordinates.

A thousand angry guys with guns does is NOT a safe place to be.

[Aenir]

even if they are flashlights

Whats with the whole if you question orders you die thing?

Humans are still giving the orders and therefore they make mistakes :|

[Nabterayl]

Whats with the whole if you question orders you die thing?

Humans are still giving the orders and therefore they make mistakes :|
I'm not sure on what level you mean "question orders." Private doubts are one thing. Soldiers are soldiers; they'll have their private doubts (which they will undoubtedly share with each other in *****ing sessions ... away from sufficiently senior ears) and their gallows humor no matter what the regime. In the Imperium, of course, it would be possible to go too far - there's a fine line between gallows humor and speaking heresy - but I imagine that the best officers and commissars make considerable allowance for soldiers being soldiers.

Getting into a debate with your lawful superior under fire is another thing. It has nothing to do with the infallibility of those superiors, and everything to do with the fact that debating under fire threatens your entire unit, and ultimately, the entire army. Refusing the lawful orders of your lawful superior under fire? That's even worse. Even in the most enlightened of modern armies, that's very likely punishable by death.

Again, the point is not that your superiors are infallible. The point is that refusing the lawful orders of a superior under fire threatens the entire foundation and combat effectiveness of an army.

Your original question was "if a trooper were to find that the officer was wrong." I'm not sure what you meant by "wrong." Here's a couple of examples. What did you have in mind?
If the officer just made a bad call, that's nothing new. Soldiers always think their officers are making stupid calls, on and off the battlefield.
If the officer committed treason or heresy, I still think that nine times out of ten the average trooper will do nothing. Partly this is a collective action problem - there's ten thousand other guys in the regiment who could oppose the officer, not to mention an entire cadre of supernumerary political enforcers whose job it is to oppose the officer. Why should the average trooper care? Even if he did care, why should he be the one to stick his neck out?
If the officer put the trooper and his mates at risk through willful, manifest incompetence, nine times out of ten the average trooper will do nothing ... until the offending officer gets fragged. Officers committing treason or heresy is a distant, abstract, somebody else's problem. Officers making calls that seem dumb goes with the territory. Officers getting their troops killed goes with the territory - I'm sure nobody lives long in the Guard without accepting the fact that they're probably going to die a violent death. But if an officer poses a sufficient threat to a trooper's own personal world - the world of his squad or his platoon, the people he really cares about - yeah, odds are good that officer's going to get himself killed.

[Aldramelech]

Yep, when the metal meets the meat there is no time for questions or debate. Any decision made under fire is preferable to no decision at all. Your average Soldier will happily carry out the stupidest order as long as the decision is made with confidence. Indecision gets people killed. Fragging happens after the event as a rule, when people get back and think about those decisions.

[Aenir]

with all this going on, (commissars watching officers, down the line and so forth) it seems that the IG is a rather ineffective unit, strong, yes, but still in effective.

How could the IG beat a chapter of astartes with all that effectiveness wasted with the whole system?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

A wall of ordnance, which is basically what they are best at. They hold stuff and kill stuff with fire superiority. Skill is secondary.

[Melissia]

with all this going on, (commissars watching officers, down the line and so forth) it seems that the IG is a rather ineffective unit, strong, yes, but still in effective.

How could the IG beat a chapter of astartes with all that effectiveness wasted with the whole system?

Because you're underestimating them. People keep mentioning the worst aspects of the Guard, but those are really exceptions rather than the rule-- the Guard itself is actually quite an efficient, powerful war machine, and 99.99% (continuing) of all battles won by the Imperium are won by the Guard, not the Astartes or Sororitas. The percentage might be smaller if you include the Skiitani though, as they are also a large, regular military force, and quite efficient too-- but with their own problems.

[Aenir]

i thought it was in every unit, just in certain other units that it boiled over

What Are Skittani?

[Melissia]

The Skiitani are the army of the Adeptus Mechanicus.


Commissars are usually present in every unit, but the ones that last the longest are typically the more lenient ones, not the gun-crazy ones who shoot for almost no reason (if any at all). Officers are usually competent enough, especially lower level officers in charge of companies, with mid-level officers sometimes having issues with them being appointed from the ranks of nobility. High level officers, such as generals and lord generals, are almost invariably experienced and talented, however.

[Aenir]

so its the junior officers who have the problems

Does that change From Catachan/Cadian/others?

(im basing it on the IG omnibus) where they said commisars do horribly in catachan regiments

[Nabterayl]

I think it's too much of a generalization to say it's a particular tier of officer that is the weak link. As you point out, different segments of the Guard draw from different martial cultures, and I don't think we have a lot of good hard evidence either way. The Death Korps' aesthetic (World War I) would lead one to expect competent and courageous mid-level officers, and that's exactly what we see in the Vraks campaign. The Catachan aesthetic (Vietnam war movies) would lead one to expect incompetent officers, and yet we have a number of examples of competent and courageous commissioned Jungle Fighters.

I would say a couple of things about the inefficiency point you make. The first is that you're right, the Guard should strike modern eyes as inefficient and not put together as well as it could be. This is deliberate; GW has gone to great pains to write it that way.

The second is that it's not always as bad as it seems. Sometimes it is; the Guard is big enough to have room for complete and total incompetents. The Guard is even big enough for not all of the Grade A ****-ups to die in their first major battles; some of them will survive through dumb luck. A few even reach the highest levels of command through a combination of political patronage and (again) dumb luck, such as the gentleman who was initially given supreme command of the Vraks campaign.

However, many of the structural deficiencies in the Guard can be mitigated by conscientious soldiering. Fragging, *****ing about orders, and all of that isn't evidence of inefficiency; all soldiers at all times have (and presumably will continue to) do those things. So we'll leave that aside. That makes the major structural deficiency in the Guard the commissariat. And even commissars don't have to be bad.

A commissar is not just there to second-guess the officer he's leading. He's there to make sure morale doesn't waver. Sometimes that means terrorizing the troops, or their officers, or their noncoms - whatever it takes. However, remember that commissars are not just political hacks. They come from the same schools that teach the storm troopers and the Adepta Sororitas how to soldier, and cadet commissars actually serve as line infantry before they get to supervise anybody. They are equipped to terrify, but also to inspire. In a very real sense, the commissariat is the Imperium's officer quality control program - they're the only people in the Guard with command authority who go through any kind of standardized training program from the start of their military career, and also the only people in the Guard with command authority who are guaranteed to have worked their way up from the mud and the blood.

In other words, while a bad commissar can be a millstone around his unit's neck, a good commissar has the potential to be an asset. The key is the working relationship he can build with the officer that he is officially watch dogging - will they be adversaries, or will they be, in a sense, partners?

The third is that while the Guard definitely has some inefficiencies, the Astartes have some as well. In terms of command and control, the Astartes have a definite advantage. All of our sources agree about this. Their comms equipment is better, and the chapter is generally going to be more tightly knit than an equivalent Guard formation. Partially that's a simple fact of physiology - while both Astartes and Guardsmen effectively serve for life, the life of a space marine is just longer than the life of a Guardsman, and so a space marine has the advantage of having had longer to form a well-oiled machine with his squad. Partially also it's spiritual - space marine chapters are essentially their own tiny splinter religions, and that will tend to bind them together as well - and partially it's due to the indoctrination and psychosurgery space marines receive, which Guardsmen do not.

However, logistically, sometimes the Guard has the advantage. If a space marine runs out of ammunition (which he will, comparatively quickly), he has to wait for a Thunderhawk transporter to reach him with a supply pod to reload. This is true whether it's a bolt pistol or a Demolisher cannon that's out of ammo. That's definitely an inefficiency, and a serious one. The Guard has a much more sophisticated supply train, which doesn't rely solely on orbital supply drops to keep the supplies flowing (though orbital supply drops are used). It may take them a while to set it up, but once they do, it lets them keep up the pressure much more efficiently than the Astartes can.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

so its the junior officers who have the problems

Does that change From Catachan/Cadian/others?

(im basing it on the IG omnibus) where they said commisars do horribly in catachan regiments

Junior Officers are a problem in any military anywhere, fictional or nonfictional.

[Aldramelech]

Junior Officers are only as good as their senior NCO's.

[Aenir]

I just re read 15 hours in the IG omnibus... (granted it was in the hell called butcheroc) it seems that they could hardly do things right and its all about the front line troop.. the same frontline troop with what, LD 7?

Im still not seeing how they are even partially effective

-> Nab Dont the IG have the same problem when they are making planetfall as well?

[Nabterayl]

I just re read 15 hours in the IG omnibus... (granted it was in the hell called butcheroc) it seems that they could hardly do things right and its all about the front line troop.. the same frontline troop with what, LD 7?

Im still not seeing how they are even partially effective
I haven't read the IG omnibus, but I do know that depictions of the Guard vary wildly, which GW justifies by the fact that "the Guard" is little more than a more or less uniform materiel base overlaid on a million different ways of waging war. As a result, sometimes the Guard is depicted as a herd of bumbling incompetents waiting to get slaughtered, and other times as a skilled, professional force. Both depictions are correct.

Look at it this way: the Guard's overall structure is based on the British Army during the period of the British Empire. That army had its structural flaws, but it was still the best of its day, and the Empire is a testament to the results it achieved on the battlefield. Individual Guard regiments may be based on any famous military people of history, which sometimes is wildly implausible (e.g., Atillans and the Mordian Iron Guard), sometimes only mostly implausible (e.g., the Death Korps of Krieg) and sometimes makes a whole lot of sense (e.g., Cadian Shock Troops and the Armageddon Steel Legion).

The wildly implausible regiments we just kind of have to shrug our shoulders at and try to suspend our disbelief a little harder. They're like chainswords - we know that those wouldn't work, we know that the in-universe explanation is bull**** on its face, and yet the fluff insists that they work. There's only so much you can analyze that from a metafictional point of view.

The regiments that make sense, though, like the Shock Troops, have a lot in common with the best Western armies (which are of course what they're based on). I don't know about you, but given the choice between the American Army and Marine Corps and a bunch of superhuman space knight monks with slightly better weaponry, I'd take the Army and Marines.

Yes, even the regiments that make sense are saddled with commissars, but it's a mistake to draw too close a parallel between 40K commissars and the political commissars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar) of the Red and Soviet Armies, for the reasons I explained in my last post. Some commissars are clearly a burden on their units. Others are clearly not. Is Ciaphas Cain a burden or an asset to his unit? Gaunt (even before he became a colonel)? Yarrick?


-> Nab Dont the IG have the same problem when they are making planetfall as well?
Which problem?

EDIT: Something about the Astartes' efficiency as opposed to the Guard's seems to be sticking in your mind. Would you mind sharing what that is?

[Aenir]

I was referring to the whole waiting for the ammo and such (logistically) I guess

It also has to do with the whole regular human vs super human idea

[Nabterayl]

Ah, I see. Yes, certainly during planetfall even the Guard would rely on Navy landers to provide supplies. The difference is that once on the ground, the Guard has the capability to set up forward operating bases and rear-area depots, and ferry supplies from those areas to the troops that need it. Space marines have what they can carry in their Rhinos and that's it, no matter how long they've been on the ground (one reason they don't stay on the ground long).

As for the human/superhuman thing ... one thing I'm finding on these boards is that how much you're impressed by that depends a lot on the individual. Me, I'm impressed by soldiers, which space marines definitely are not. They're more like knights, with all the good and the bad that implies. (Don't get me wrong, I think knights are cool, but I don't admire them.)

But in terms of effectiveness, what do space marines have going for them?

Superior command and control technology
High level of air mobility, even for armored fighting vehicles
High level of ground mobility
Superior small-unit cohesion and morale
Superior small-unit experience
Superior physical fitness and endurance
All those are good things, which contribute to space marines' effectiveness. What are some of their weaknesses?
Inferior ammunition endurance
Primitive supply train
Lightly armored armored fighting vehicles
No heavy artillery except for orbital bombardment
Military objectives can be overridden by a sense of honor
Can take only light casualties before suffering crippling losses
Those weaknesses don't mean that marines are ineffective - I'm just pointing out that all Imperial forces have their idiotic inefficiencies. If you notice, the marines' weaknesses tend to be the Guard's strengths.

Fighting marines is hard, as fighting well-trained, experienced, confident, highly motivated men always is. But there's no real mystery to beating them. A single hunter cadre - the equivalent of an IG company - kicked the crap out of any Avenging Sons battle company on Taros by systematically taking advantage of the weaknesses I listed above.

[Aenir]

It seems that if the marines were human, they would be a airborne division and thats it

perhaps we should start seeing them as this?

[Nabterayl]

That is exactly how I think of them. Well okay, not exactly; I exactly think of them as super ultra commando knights on steroids. In terms of what they can do, and what they are fit to do, the commando analogy really fits. In terms of how they view the Guard, each other, and the rest of the Imperium, the knight analogy really fits.

None of this is to rag on the Astartes. Are they badass? Yes, absolutely, they are well 'ard, and because of that, they will kick *** and take names even when asked to do non-commando type missions. But that doesn't mean asking them to do those types of missions is a good idea, or a good use of their unique capabilities. It's just recognizing them for what they are, apart from the in-universe awe.

[Melissia]

Which is why you don't really want Marines to be doing frontline work. That's just not a good use for them. Let the Guard do the footslogging trench warfare, etc, the Marines are much more useful elsewhere.

[Aenir]

maybe not in the over the top type trench warfare, but couldnt they be super effective at digging under an enemy trench and blowing it out from under them :D

or you could just do the whole blitzkrieg thing :)

As far as it goes, (And it might just be me) Guard is better on D and the Marines are Better on the offensive, GK, Sisters and the like seem to be moderate at both

[Nabterayl]

Depending on what your personal definition of offense and defense is, that's true. I don't want to get overly technical on you.

There are ways in which what you said is not true, of course. Say you need to take on a traitor Guard armored regiment - a hundred and fifty or so Leman Russes, a dozen Baneblades, couple dozen Basilisks, couple dozen Hydras, a hundred or so Chimeras. Space marines are not the force you want for that. The entire chapter's armory only amounts to twenty to thirty Predators, maybe a dozen Land Raiders, and about a dozen Vindicators. It will take two entire companies of marines just to crew the armory, which is a major commitment of marines even without any infantry support. Would you put thirty Predators, twelve Land Raiders (keeping in mind that some of them are going to be Redeemers and Crusaders) and a dozen Vindicators up against a hundred and fifty Leman Russes (keeping in mind that some of them are going to be Vanquishers), a dozen Baneblades, about fifty Basilisks, about fifty Hydras, and a hundred Guard squads in Chimeras? Even with Thunderhawk transporters and adjusting for proper speeds (a Predator is about four times as fast as a Baneblade in reality), I wouldn't take those odds. I'd much rather have a loyalist Guard armored regiment.

So in that scenario (and keep in mind that we're talking about a single traitor Guard regiment here), the Guard is better at offense than the marines.

Here's another example. Suppose you need to assault a fortress. I don't mean a namby-pamby Planetstrike Indomitable Fortress (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430057&prodId=prod340014a). I mean a full-on fortified position, with multiple defense lines, each several miles thick, each covered in minefields, razorwire, and tank traps, with bunkers and forts in mutually supportive positions, connected by trenches and underground tunnels, covered by anti-air batteries and surface-to-orbit defenses - all before you get to the actual fortress, which is an even tougher nut to crack. The kind of fortress that the Guard took on in the Vraks campaign.

Space marines can't handle that sort of target. The anti-air batteries mean that you can't fly in Thunderhawks. The heavy gun positions mean that you can't drop pod in without finding yourself targeted by enemy artillery from a half dozen different directions the instant you hit the ground. The surface-to-orbit defenses deny you the use of your orbital bombardments. Whirlwinds can't crack the bunkers and gun positions; their missiles are too light. There's nothing to outmaneuver, so the speed of their AFVs is of little value. The only available option is a frontal assault, and the marines have no weapons capable of silencing the enemy's heavy guns except at practically point-blank range (Demolisher cannons, meltaguns, meltabombs). The marines may well be able to overwhelm the outer skin of the first defense line, but the sheer thickness of the defense line means that every marine in the strike force will be dead even if they could make a straight hell-for-leather dash for the main objective, which they can't, because of the minefields and tank traps.

The problem is not that the marines are insufficiently superhuman. The problem is that they don't have the numbers, and they don't have the equipment, to handle this sort of target. This sort of target requires heavy, ground-based artillery (so you can use it despite the surface-to-orbit batteries), heavy armored vehicles, and a lot of manpower. In this kind of environment a single wrong move could see over an entire company of space marines wiped out at once (as indeed happened at Vraks). One or two wrong moves and you've just lost an entire strike force's worth of marines. Even marines aren't good enough to prevent that from happening in this kind of environment; mistakes happen.

So in this sort of situation, the Guard is better at offense than the marines.

Neither of these scenarios are uncommon. This is why I think of the marines and Guard not in terms of offense vs. defense, but in terms of different mission profiles and capabilities.

[Aldramelech]

Space marines can't handle that sort of target. The anti-air batteries mean that you can't fly in Thunderhawks. The heavy gun positions mean that you can't drop pod in without finding yourself targeted by enemy artillery from a half dozen different directions the instant you hit the ground. The surface-to-orbit defenses deny you the use of your orbital bombardments. Whirlwinds can't crack the bunkers and gun positions; their missiles are too light. There's nothing to outmaneuver, so the speed of their AFVs is of little value. The only available option is a frontal assault, and the marines have no weapons capable of silencing the enemy's heavy guns except at practically point-blank range (Demolisher cannons, meltaguns, meltabombs). The marines may well be able to overwhelm the outer skin of the first defense line, but the sheer thickness of the defense line means that every marine in the strike force will be dead even if they could make a straight hell-for-leather dash for the main objective, which they can't, because of the minefields and tank traps.

Nuke the site from orbit...... its the only way to be sure lol

[Aenir]

Depending on what your personal definition of offense and defense is, that's true. I don't want to get overly technical on you.

There are ways in which what you said is not true, of course. Say you need to take on a traitor Guard armored regiment - a hundred and fifty or so Leman Russes, a dozen Baneblades, couple dozen Basilisks, couple dozen Hydras, a hundred or so Chimeras. Space marines are not the force you want for that. The entire chapter's armory only amounts to twenty to thirty Predators, maybe a dozen Land Raiders, and about a dozen Vindicators. It will take two entire companies of marines just to crew the armory, which is a major commitment of marines even without any infantry support. Would you put thirty Predators, twelve Land Raiders (keeping in mind that some of them are going to be Redeemers and Crusaders) and a dozen Vindicators up against a hundred and fifty Leman Russes (keeping in mind that some of them are going to be Vanquishers), a dozen Baneblades, about fifty Basilisks, about fifty Hydras, and a hundred Guard squads in Chimeras? Even with Thunderhawk transporters and adjusting for proper speeds (a Predator is about four times as fast as a Baneblade in reality), I wouldn't take those odds. I'd much rather have a loyalist Guard armored regiment.

So in that scenario (and keep in mind that we're talking about a single traitor Guard regiment here), the Guard is better at offense than the marines.

Here's another example. Suppose you need to assault a fortress. I don't mean a namby-pamby Planetstrike Indomitable Fortress (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430057&prodId=prod340014a). I mean a full-on fortified position, with multiple defense lines, each several miles thick, each covered in minefields, razorwire, and tank traps, with bunkers and forts in mutually supportive positions, connected by trenches and underground tunnels, covered by anti-air batteries and surface-to-orbit defenses - all before you get to the actual fortress, which is an even tougher nut to crack. The kind of fortress that the Guard took on in the Vraks campaign.

Space marines can't handle that sort of target. The anti-air batteries mean that you can't fly in Thunderhawks. The heavy gun positions mean that you can't drop pod in without finding yourself targeted by enemy artillery from a half dozen different directions the instant you hit the ground. The surface-to-orbit defenses deny you the use of your orbital bombardments. Whirlwinds can't crack the bunkers and gun positions; their missiles are too light. There's nothing to outmaneuver, so the speed of their AFVs is of little value. The only available option is a frontal assault, and the marines have no weapons capable of silencing the enemy's heavy guns except at practically point-blank range (Demolisher cannons, meltaguns, meltabombs). The marines may well be able to overwhelm the outer skin of the first defense line, but the sheer thickness of the defense line means that every marine in the strike force will be dead even if they could make a straight hell-for-leather dash for the main objective, which they can't, because of the minefields and tank traps.

The problem is not that the marines are insufficiently superhuman. The problem is that they don't have the numbers, and they don't have the equipment, to handle this sort of target. This sort of target requires heavy, ground-based artillery (so you can use it despite the surface-to-orbit batteries), heavy armored vehicles, and a lot of manpower. In this kind of environment a single wrong move could see over an entire company of space marines wiped out at once (as indeed happened at Vraks). One or two wrong moves and you've just lost an entire strike force's worth of marines. Even marines aren't good enough to prevent that from happening in this kind of environment; mistakes happen.

So in this sort of situation, the Guard is better at offense than the marines.

Neither of these scenarios are uncommon. This is why I think of the marines and Guard not in terms of offense vs. defense, but in terms of different mission profiles and capabilities.

granted that they have way more, but (fluff wise) arent marine vehicles superior in almost every way to the guard tanks?

do the guard even have anything that can match a land raider that isnt super heavy?

in addition to which, also (rare of course) couldnt one use an ares pattern in place of a demolisher and therefore use the superior LR armor with the big gun of the Vindi?

On top of material superiority, do the marines not have a superior training schedule with more gunnery?

who needs 10000s of artillery shells to hit a target when you can do the job with say 100 whirlwind missles that are on target?

I guess its the whole quality vs quantity arguement.

As for that position, id suppose you would have to mass at one point, Land raiders leading the way, combined arms, take risks with thunderhawks to tie up AA, push along a small corridor with whirlwinds behind the attack, keeping the artillery suppressed, and get ready to bash em out at any time.

While this is going on, i would suppose that terminators and assault marines should be making an assault a bit ahead of the prong, past the next line or so.



EDIT: Aldramelech.. I have 3 canisters of nerve gas, why dont we roll em in there and gas the ****ng nest? :)

[Nabterayl]

granted that they have way more, but (fluff wise) arent marine vehicles superior in almost every way to the guard tanks?
Surprisingly, no. Space marine vehicles are superior in some ways. They are almost universally faster than their Guard equivalents. For instance, a Predator Annihilator has a maximum off-road speed of 50 kph, whereas a Leman Russ has a maximum off-road speed of 21 kph (and a Baneblade has a maximum off-road speed of 18 kph). A Land Raider can pull 48 kph off-road. That is, undeniably, a big deal. Imagine playing a game of Apocalypse where the Russes could only 2.5" at combat speed, but the Predators could move 6" at combat speed. Lots of potential there for outmaneuvering the Russes.

However, space marine lascannons are not, fluff-wise, any stronger than Guard lascannons, and in some fluff depictions (and some editions of 40K) a battle cannon is actually better at tank-busting than a lascannon. A Predator Annihilator and a Leman Russ with hull lascannon are almost equally matched, firepower-wise, and likewise, a Leman Russ can almost equal a Land Raider in firepower. A Leman Russ, fluff-wise, radically out-guns a Predator Destructor.

Armor-wise, space marine vehicles definitely have more advanced armor, but they also have less of it. Fluff-wise, a Leman Russ really does have better armor (taking into account the armor technology as well as the thickness, armor sloping, etc.) than a Predator. Not as good as a Land Raider, but not that much worse, either (from the front, anyway).


do the guard even have anything that can match a land raider that isnt super heavy?
A Vanquisher will open a Land Raider just as well as it will open up anything else, yes. So will a Destroyer tank hunter. Of course, both of those are rare. But a couple of Leman Russ can gang up on a Land Raider just fine and take one out, yeah. And don't forget the Leman Russes equipped with Demolisher cannons themselves; an armored regiment should have two to three dozen of those.


in addition to which, also (rare of course) couldnt one use an ares pattern in place of a demolisher and therefore use the superior LR armor with the big gun of the Vindi?
Yes, but remember that a Demolisher cannon has a much worse range than a battle cannon, and an entire chapter is unlikely to have more than one or two Land Raider Ares. A battle cannon gets in two to three shots before even a lascannon comes into range, and a lascannon has twice the range of a Demolisher cannon.


On top of material superiority, do the marines not have a superior training schedule with more gunnery?
Oh, absolutely. Space marines will certainly be better gunners. Are they good enough gunners for every tank to achieve a kill ratio of 3:1? Maybe. Personally I doubt it. Even if they could, though, that would tell us that a chapter's entire armory is equal to one armored regiment. That would, undeniably, be a phenomenal feat of arms, one that the space marines could be proud of. But good luck getting an entire chapter's armory on any single battlefield facing only a single armored regiment. Any target that important is likely to have armored regiments falling out of its ears.


who needs 10000s of artillery shells to hit a target when you can do the job with say 100 whirlwind missles that are on target?
Well, that depends. The Whirlwind missiles really are, fluff-wise, as weak as they are on the tabletop relative to Guard artillery. So let's say you've got to take out an AV14/14/14 bastion. The strongest long-range artillery you've got is a S5 Vengeance missile. You can go ahead and hit it a hundred times with a hundred missiles, and still nothing is going to happen.


I guess its the whole quality vs quantity arguement.

As for that position, id suppose you would have to mass at one point, Land raiders leading the way, combined arms, take risks with thunderhawks to tie up AA, push along a small corridor with whirlwinds behind the attack, keeping the artillery suppressed, and get ready to bash em out at any time.

While this is going on, i would suppose that terminators and assault marines should be making an assault a bit ahead of the prong, past the next line or so.
It's not just a matter of quality vs. quantity. It's also a matter of scale. Certainly the approach you describe is a sensible one. But that doesn't mean it would work.

The point I'm making is that a target doesn't have to be that big before it is literally too big for even an entire chapter to handle, let alone the two to three companies that most chapters consider a major strike force - and if the mission profile is wrong, the target doesn't need to be that big to be too big for space marines to handle.

Space marine armored vehicles just aren't that good. They're fast, yes, and heavily armed for a vehicle that fast (well, by Imperial standards; a Hammerhead is head and shoulders better than anything the Imperium has). But they aren't tougher than Guard tanks (except for Land Raiders, which are, but only from the sides and rear), and they only marginally out-shoot Guard tanks on a one-for-one basis. When you're outnumbered at least three to one in even the most favorable conditions, being marginally better on a one-for-one basis is not a happy situation. Space marine vehicles, like everything else space marine, are intended to pounce on vulnerable or critical targets, smash them, and get the hell out of dodge. For that purpose, they are great. For a straight-up slugging match, they're only okay, and sometimes there is simply no way around a straight-up slugging match. Not everything can be neutralized through commando raids.

[Melissia]

maybe not in the over the top type trench warfare, but couldnt they be super effective at digging under an enemy trench and blowing it out from under them :D

or you could just do the whole blitzkrieg thing :)
Any form of extended combat is bad for the Marines. The sororitas can handle it a bit better due to their superior numbers, but generally speaking, the Marines are best at dropping down and attempting to destroy vital resources before the enemy can react, while the Sisters are best at getting up close and ending a fight quickly. The Guard is, quite simply, THE imperial army you want to go to if you are planning a long campaign. Neither Space Marines nor Sororitas can do what the Guard can do. Whether it is a long offensive campaign or a long defensive campaign, the Guard is always most suited for it.

As much as people malign the lasgun, it kills people far easier in the fluff than it does in the tabletop (depending on the writer, of course-- I prefer the Cain books, myself)-- and its ammunition is rechargeable to boot. They have superior logistics, superior artillery, superior tanks, superior numbers, and a superior fighting style for this purpose.

The bolter, for all its glory, is designed to end things quickly. Kill quickly, kill easily, etc. Its ammunition is extremely expensive (a single shell is worth somewhere around two to twenty times as much as a lasgun charge pack, depending on how close you are to a bolt shell factory-- and that's the civilian model boltgun rifles, astartes and sororitas shells are far more expensive than even those) and large, with each .75 caliber shell being quite heavy. How many clips an astartes or sororitas takes to battle I don't know, but even if they took a dozen clips, that's ONLY around 240 shots (assuming twenty shots per clip, which I'm not sure is actually accurate). And using all of that up is likely to be considered wasteful by both parties.

[Nabterayl]

The bolter, for all its glory, is designed to end things quickly. Kill quickly, kill easily, etc. Its ammunition is extremely expensive (a single shell is worth somewhere around two to twenty times as much as a lasgun charge pack, depending on how close you are to a bolt shell factory-- and that's the civilian model boltgun rifles, astartes and sororitas shells are far more expensive than even those) and large, with each .75 caliber shell being quite heavy. How many clips an astartes or sororitas takes to battle I don't know, but even if they took a dozen clips, that's ONLY around 240 shots (assuming twenty shots per clip, which I'm not sure is actually accurate). And using all of that up is likely to be considered wasteful by both parties.
Twenty rounds per clip is standard, yes, though the MkIV Ultra pattern seems to use twenty-five round magazines as standard and three-round bursts, which means five to eight bursts per clip depending on pattern. I don't think any source ever specifies a standard loadout for a tactical marine, but I do know the following:

Raptors tactical marines carried a total of 80 boltgun rounds on their first drop on Taros. Eighty rounds - four clips, including the one in the gun. This may have been an anomaly, given that this was a Thunderhawk insertion against an isolated target, and there would have been room in the gunships for additional clips (and presumably, time to go get them). Regardless, this does mean that the Raptors expected eighty rounds per man to be sufficient to neutralize the defenders of the target missile silo.

Second Company of the Avenging Sons assaulted the governor's palace on Taros at the opening of the Taros incident. This battle is more instructive, since it was a classic drop pod assault with no logistical support and the planners knew that they might need to pursue their target (the planetary governor) beyond the palace itself. Thus, we may expect them to have been carrying full loads of ammunition. As it happened, after Second Company neutralized the palace's defenders, a Tau hunter cadre attacked, driving the battle company back through the streets of the surrounding city in a running firefight until the space marines holed up in the palace itself. For two days the space marines held off the hunter cadre, and by the end of the second day the marines' ammunition was running low enough that the company captain decided offensive operations would be impossible.

The Avenging Sons attack on the palace suggests that the ammunition a battle company can carry on its persons is enough for two days of fairly heavy, but not constant, fighting. We should bear in mind that Second Company took fairly heavy losses during this operation, so presumably the living marines were scavenging ammunition from the dead. So about two days of fighting seems like a reasonable estimate for a full ammunition load - less if the fighting is really intense (you can empty two hundred and fifty boltgun rounds in about seventy-five seconds, but of course ammunition expenditure in a real firefight is almost never going to spike that way).

Regardless, if you take a look at the illustrations of space marines we have in the Imperial Armour books, it seems clear that the limitation on ammunition loadouts is space, not weight. Space marines are never depicted with any kind of webbing, and even if they can carry a lot of ammunition by weight (which of course they can, being space marines in power armor), there just isn't that much space to carry stuff. So no matter how much ammunition a space marine can carry, a Guardsman can carry more, just by dint of the fact that a Guardsman's magazines hold two to three times as much ammunition as a boltgun's, are smaller and lighter, and (in a pinch) can be recharged with nothing more complicated than a campfire.

[Aenir]

wasnt there a thread on marine ammo in the Bolter and chainsword way back when?

I thought they were all contained in the backpack and therefore could hold alot of clips or bunch of the shells

[Nabterayl]

Heavy bolter ammunition is carried in a backpack. I've never seen any indication that regular backpacks are anything other than generators and filters, though.

[Melissia]

I haven't, either. Face it, GW fluff isn't bound by simple things like logic or good writing.

[Aenir]

I think we can agree on that :D

[Aenir]

Another Thought occurs, we are thinking of armored regiments, what about an infantry regiment or pure artillery regiment?

[Nabterayl]

I don't think an artillery regiment would be all that hard to handle for anything except a pure infantry force. It especially wouldn't be all that hard to handle for an air mobile force like space marines. There's still an element of scale, of course. Two hundred Basilisks in one place (the size of a Steel Legion artillery regiment) simply cannot be destroyed by ten assault marines, for instance. Yes, the assault marines could use a drop pod or Thunderhawk to get the drop on one battery, and take it to pieces, but then they're on the ground, and there's still a hundred and ninety-seven Earthshaker cannons to take revenge. Even if the marines immediately hopped back into their Thunderhawk, it only takes one shell incoming at the right time to paste the marines.

But could a well-equipped marine strike force take out an artillery regiment with careful planning? Yes, I think so. The idea of making a regiment out of nothing but artillery, or even mostly artillery, is just silly.

Infantry regiments are trickier, I think. Depending on their world of origin, infantry regiments can be big - twelve thousand men in the case of Tallarn infantry regiments. That's a lot of men, and unless they're just standing around in the open, probably too many to effectively paste with a space marine strike force's meager artillery assets. Nor are Chimeras any slouch compared to Rhinos, in speed or in armor, and even foot regiments have some vehicles. I don't think even a big infantry regiment could stand up to an entire space marine chapter (not that that's anything to be proud of), but I do think that, in a stand-up fight, a big infantry regiment could give a space marine strike force serious problems.

Of course all of this is rather unrealistic. One of the reasons the Guard is organized into regiments that make no sense as combat formations is because regiments aren't combat formations. It's not as if the tank regiment is tasked with objective A, while the infantry regiment is tasked with objective B, and the artillery regiment is tasked with objective C. Instead, elements of each regiment would each be tasked with A, B, and C - or, if the objectives are particularly large-scale, perhaps all three regiments would be tasked with the same objective. That way you have the proper force mix to respond to more than one kind of threat, and each combat arm - infantry, armor, and artillery - can cover the weaknesses of the others.

[Aenir]

I thought being split up (to combat the whole chaos thing) was so each regiment could do its own thing in addition to being difficult to turn.

so you could say, Arty Regiment 2934-4903.2 hit this objective, while armored regiment rushes the objective, and the infantry guards the flanks

[Nabterayl]

In-universe, you're absolutely right. Out-universe, it's because the Guard is based on the British Army, and this sort of organization was one of their hallmarks in the 18th century :p

As long as you're fighting large, multi-regiment actions, it's not a big deal. You can devote three regiments to a single objective. However, every "single objective" can be broken down into a series of smaller objectives ("take that city" becomes "take this hill," "take that road," "neutralize that bunker," "clear that house," etc. until finally the city is taken). Ideally, each of those smaller objectives would be undertaken by a combined force from all three regiments, so you never have a situation where it's just infantry or just tanks or just artillery trying to achieve a given objective, no matter how small.

This of course is not the most efficient way to do it - as an example, you'd much rather be calling someone from your own regiment for artillery support, with whom you have trained and fought alongside before, than calling some stranger from another regiment (and quite possibly a whole different planet) who you had never met before this campaign. The coordination between your unit at the front and the artillery at the rear is likely to be much tighter if you've trained together before being thrown into the battle, and coordination is something you care about a lot when calling down artillery. The same goes for coordinating between infantry and armor (a surprisingly difficult task), and coordinating between armor and artillery. But keeping the regiments separate like this is part of the point; the Imperium trades the efficiency of integration for the security of compartmentalization.

[Aenir]

It may be me, but why (background wise) do we see so much more infantry based things versus that whole combined arms?

PS: Im thinking of starting an infantry horde IG army as my next 40k army

Mix of penal legion/conscripts/regs

[Nabterayl]

Part of it is cross-regimental inefficiency. Part of it is the politicking that goes on in the Departmento Munitorum when lords high commander are jockeying for regiments to be part of their invasion forces. Part of it is the inconsistent depictions of the Imperial Guard and the desire of some authors to portray them in an incompetent light. Part of it is the genuine incompetence of some Imperial Guard officers, even high-ranking ones.

Mostly, though, I think it's that the Imperium's manufacturing capabilities suck.

The Imperium is large, and thus it can churn out a ridiculous total amount of manufactured goods. However, on a forge-by-forge basis, they're hideously inefficient, saddled by the Mechanicus' superstition and the fact that they're copying what were low-tech designs (including those of their forges) to begin with. It can take centuries to build the largest machines (titans, starships) - when they can be built at all - and the smaller war machines are similarly slow to produce compared to what we, living in the western world, would expect. Whole planets may be given over to manufacturing, but there are not that many forge worlds compared to the size of the Imperium as a whole, and for every non-forge world that has a decent manufacturing base, there's several that are primitive hellholes or just plain primitive.

Human beings, on the other hand, reproduce at about the same rate they always have, and do so on every world of the Imperium.

These two factors combined mean that even though forge worlds can churn out thousands upon thousands of Chimeras, Leman Russes, and the like, the Imperium's total output of machines lags behind its total output of men. So it makes sense that the Imperial Guard would have more infantry regiments than it would artillery or armor regiments - and if you have seven infantry regiments for every armored and artillery regiment (I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air), what else can you do but field lots of infantry?

As they say, when the Imperium gives you infantry, make infantryade ... or ... something ;)

[Melissia]

Well, you generally try to avoid making infantryade, but your enemies certainly try.

[Aenir]

Infantryade, in two flavors, Catachan and Cadian Plastic or Mordian/Vallhallan Metal! :D

[Gotthammer]

Well, you generally try to avoid making infantryade, but your enemies certainly try.

Men, you're lucky men. Soon, you'll all be fighting for your planet. many of you will be dying for your planet. A few of you will be put through a fine mesh screen for your planet.



They will be the luckiest of all.

[Nabterayl]

You know, if you're fighting eldar, that might even be literally true :p

[Aenir]

ahhh, zapp brannigan


Captain Zapp Brannigan: If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
[Kif groans]
Captain Zapp Brannigan: Now, like all great plans, my strategy is so simple an idiot could have devised it. On my command all ships will line up and file directly into the alien death cannons, clogging them with wreckage.
[Fry raises his hand]
Fry: W-Wouldn't it make more sense to send the robots in first a - ?
[Bender starts to choke him à la Homer Simpson to Bart in "The Simpsons". His antenna flashes again and he stops choking Fry and salutes]
Bender: Sir, I volunteer for a suicide mission.
[Bender's antenna stops flashing and he bangs his head with his knuckles]
Bender: Cut it out!
Captain Zapp Brannigan: You're a brave robot, son. But when I'm in command every mission's a suicide mission.
(Courtesy of IMDB)

I didnt know eldar had fine mesh screens! :D

[Nabterayl]

Shadow weavers, man. Shadow weavers :)

[Aenir]

what are shadow weavers?

Ive never heard of them

are they a form of harlequin or warp spider?

[Nabterayl]

Shadow weavers are a form of eldar artillery, found in the tabletop in support weapon batteries (which might be why you've never heard of them, as support weapon batteries are rarely employed, and in Apocalypse there are larger versions mounted on Falcon chassis). It's a form of the same monofilament technology behind death spinners, except instead of waving around a stream of monofilaments like a death spinner, the shadow weaver weaves a net of monofilaments and fires it in an arc like a mortar. The monofilament then drifts down onto the battlefield, slicing up the enemy's unprotected squishy bits, as if somebody had dropped a giant spider web made of razors.