GW store opening in San Diego...how will this effect LGS?

[JMichael]

I have often wondered why a city as large as San Diego never had a GW store. Not that we needed one. But alas GW is staking their claim in April.
We have 6 LGS spread out over 20 miles that have gaming rooms/tables for 40k (and other games). 4 of them have a dedicated weekly 40k night/league.
Even with the GW store opening just a few miles from a LGS I don't think they will effect our stores much at all. If anything they will help!

We are a Military town. 3+ Navy bases and 3 Marine Corps bases (including 1 of the 2 boot camps). Every game store offers a 10% military discount. I doubt the GW store will.
I think the GW store will introduce young people to the hobby, and they will then migrate to the other stores to play.

But this is all just my speculation.
What experience/observations do you have when a GW store opens near other Local Game Shops?

[Caitsidhe]

I have often wondered why a city as large as San Diego never had a GW store. Not that we needed one. But alas GW is staking their claim in April.

It never had one because Games Workshop has been flailing around it policy and long term plan. The recent departure/change of the CEO and what is clearly a very different direction with the new guard, has revealed a new plan and direction.


We have 6 LGS spread out over 20 miles that have gaming rooms/tables for 40k (and other games). 4 of them have a dedicated weekly 40k night/league.

It is their intention to take ALL of that business. Games Workshop tracks which stores buy how much product. They are opening their store there because if the town is big enough to support all those LGS, they believe that once those LGS no longer can get Games Workshop product, their customers will default to them.

And for those who can't see the writing on the wall and think I'm paranoid, let me point something out. A city that can support 6+ LGS (four of which have weekly leagues) don't need ANY help growing the hobby. :) They don't need help recruitment. If the point of a Games Workshop store was to recruit and increase the hobby, it would not need to go up anywhere near San Diego. Games Workshop is in the first stages of making a move. They are losing on several legal fronts. They cannot control their product once they sell it to merchants. Thus, instead of going the route which would be sane, they are trying to corner the market on their own product. They are closing stores in areas that need them (where the hobby need recruitment and help) and opening and maintaining them only in those cities which are flush and where everyone has ample access to product. They opened one in San Antonio not that log ago, a city that like San Diego has no need of it whatsoever.

The only reason to make the changes and calculated openings and closings we are seeing is because they intend, in the not too distant future, to cut off American LGS from all product. The intend to be the ONLY vendor.


Even with the GW store opening just a few miles from a LGS I don't think they will effect our stores much at all. If anything they will help!

They won't hurt that LGS. It won't help it either. This will remain true until your local LGS suddenly has no Games Workshop product to sell. The model in Europe does not rely on Games Workshop stores to provide most of the gaming space (as the LGS do in America). That is the problem they are facing, i.e. competition with an LGS here is something they will always lose until they provide the same options or something the LGS can't. They have opted, instead of providing more, to eventually supply the product alone. Of course, most LGS will no longer support Games Workshop gaming at that point. Would you allow people to come use yoru gaming tables for Warhammer when you can't carry the product? :) This is part of the reason I think this whole approach is deluded. American gamers will just switch games and continue to play at the LGS they love.


We are a Military town. 3+ Navy bases and 3 Marine Corps bases (including 1 of the 2 boot camps). Every game store offers a 10% military discount. I doubt the GW store will. I think the GW store will introduce young people to the hobby, and they will then migrate to the other stores to play.

I don't agree with the notion that Games Workshop stores bring real new blood to our hobby because by in large the hobby is an adult thing. I don't think they will ever change that here. I agree with you that you won't get a discount. :)

[JMichael]

I just checked the store's facebook page and they did state 'no discounts'.

Is there really a plan by GW to not sell to brick an morter LGS?
For those that have GW stores...Do they allow in store gaming? I seem to have read that as they see the gaming as advertisement for their games, that only people with nicely painted armies can play, etc.

[Earl Harbinger]

I just checked the store's facebook page and they did state 'no discounts'.

Is there really a plan by GW to not sell to brick an morter LGS?
For those that have GW stores...Do they allow in store gaming? I seem to have read that as they see the gaming as advertisement for their games, that only people with nicely painted armies can play, etc.

The GW store local to me is one of closet sized one man stores so they only have 2 tables. In store gaming is allowed and the manager is cool with painted/unapinted/3rd party parts. However, being so incredibly cramped for space detracts from the gaming experience.

[Caitsidhe]

I just checked the store's facebook page and they did state 'no discounts'.

Is there really a plan by GW to not sell to brick an morter LGS?
For those that have GW stores...Do they allow in store gaming? I seem to have read that as they see the gaming as advertisement for their games, that only people with nicely painted armies can play, etc.

That is for you to decide. I am giving my "opinion" on the matter based on the evidence at hand. I believe there is a several phase plan to do exactly that. You are free to think I'm nuts, take my opinion with a grain of salt, and/or do as I suggest. Consider all the recent activities and changes logically and apply them in a way which follows the Games Workshop paradigm of the past. See what conclusions you come up with. :)

[Twizted86]

Wait, who offers discounts? I've been in san diego for 3 years and this is the first I'm hearing of this. As far as the original topic, I hope the customers stay loyal to the LGS, and don't jump ship. They do a lot more for the community and I know I would rather help a small business keep the lights on.

[Wolfshade]

It will be interesting to see what this sort of store will be like.
Will it continue to follow the trend of the comparatively small store, more focused on the sell rather than the hobby, or will this reveal a new direction for american stores?

I hope that it is the latter as what Caitsidhe has said in the past has really shown GW to have "missed the mark" by cloning EU stores in the Americas. Now, the reason why I hope it is a success is so that it can serve the hobby community well, though it sounds like there are plenty of LGS which would offer stiff competition (in terms of community and price).

[Psychosplodge]

What kind of return do they need though to make them profitable enough, when you consider how small some of towns in the UK are that support a GW, why can't the considerably larger cities in the US?

[Mr Mystery]

I'd imagine any of the FLGS which might be poorly run may suffer. But seeing as GW don't offer discounts in store, and the FLGS already have an established customer base, those well run and well thought of will be absolutely dandy.

I reckon we might see GW running their own stores in the US purely as recruitment centres. Sole product on their shelves being their own, and able to infect people with a decent staffers enthusiasm for the setting (models aside, the setting sells all! Look at the HH series etc). Take a spod, turn him in a Gamer, and specifically, a GW gamer. Then let him wander into the FLGS. Doesn't matter if he buys there, GW store has already recruited replacements. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Wow there is some paranoia running wild in this thread, Caitsidhe, you might need to drink less coffee or something.

As for GW moving to an area with a lot of FLGS, well, as you think, GW is great at getting younger people into the hobby, FLGS aren't, they're generally not that F and can be rather intimidating for younger people and those inexperinced in the hobby, they do however have thier uses, they generally have more gaming space and have new games and models for you to try out.

[Caitsidhe]

Wow there is some paranoia running wild in this thread, Caitsidhe, you might need to drink less coffee or something.

I don't drink coffee. At the moment I'm not even drinking sodas with caffeine. Be that as it may, I take no offense if you want to label me paranoid or nuts. My assessment is based simply on the facts with a particular emphasis on recent events. I would like to point out that paranoia requires an element of fear. I don't fear Games Workshop, nor do I think they are "out to get me." I have no ax to grind in the matter at all. My Games Workshop product comes from barter, prize support, and/or Ebay.


As for GW moving to an area with a lot of FLGS, well, as you think, GW is great at getting younger people into the hobby, FLGS aren't, they're generally not that F and can be rather intimidating for younger people and those inexperinced in the hobby, they do however have thier uses, they generally have more gaming space and have new games and models for you to try out.

I never said I think Games Workshop are good at getting younger people into the hobby. I don't think younger people in the U.S. on the whole are interest in the hobby at all. Games Workshop has been around for quite some time and the ratio of young children involved in the hobby has always been a near flat line. Children, in general, don't go to boutique stores. They go to TOY stores, i.e. gaming shops with lots of variety. Young people who end up in a Games Workshop store do so only if their parents take them there. That just isn't the dominant culture over here. However, if I were to give your argument any credence, I would have to see a Games Workshop store setup to be inviting/appealing to the younger set. It isn't. They tend, in general, to be setup like the little stores that sell high end stereo equipment for your car.

We should always apply critical thinking skills. That isn't paranoia; it is commonsense. If recruitment was their actual goal, Games Workshop stores would be appearing in cities that lack a strong war-gaming presence but that have the right demographics (i.e. potential) for it. If they were aimed at the younger set, they would be appearing in locations were younger children are likely to be "walk ins" and be setup for people to spend more time in them. My point is that if "recruitment" is the goal for these stores and it is just accepted that they are going to be a "loss leader," they are being badly mismanaged for that purpose.

I don't believe they are intended as "loss leaders," or is "recruitment" more important than profit. I think those are the excuses given by people in the company trying to cover their own butts for doing a bad job and by those people who are apologists who simply don't want to call Games Workshop on really poor judgement. I think they place their stores in cities that already have large, healthy gaming populations because they want that business and then were puzzled when they didn't get it. I think their stores ended up financial losers because of bad management and now Games Workshop is changing tactics to try and salvage some timber from the deadfall. I think the people now in charge have a very concise, ambitious (if deluded) plan to try and dramatically alter how their product is placed on the market, consolidating it with themselves as the sole vendor and distribution network.

[gcsmith]

You realize if they wanted to be the sole trader, the easiest thing to do would be to stop third party sales.... "But they earn most money through third party!!!" Exactly, so they don;t want to end third party.

[eldargal]

GW store opens
Horse eats its young
Two headed cat is born
Sheep start fornicating with goats
The earth cracks
Brimstone falls from the sky
FLGS closes
The world is rent asunder and humaity spills screaming and mewling into a cold, deathless void.

Or:

GW store opens, does well.
FLGS also do well offering things GW don't like a variety of companies products and more gaming space.

[Caitsidhe]

You realize if they wanted to be the sole trader, the easiest thing to do would be to stop third party sales.... "But they earn most money through third party!!!" Exactly, so they don;t want to end third party.

Not yet... that will come soon enough though. That is the other shoe to drop. They are taking the first steps now by trying to eliminate all internet sales besides their own. This is rather huge since most stores today rely also on the internet. Very few "brick and mortar" stores don't make use of it. Telling an LGS you can't sell anything except over the counter is a huge change and it affects a rather large number of people, not just businesses that are entirely online. The other telling change is how much stock must be kept on the shelves and of "what kind." If you wean the LGS to a minimum of stock that largely must represent new product, you are already starting to setup a situation even in the brick and mortar stores where people must go to Games Workshop for a certain percentage of models.

It is also important to note that the sales Contracts which Games Workshop setups with third party vendors prohibits them from selling below a certain price but it is NOT reciprocal. This means nothing prevents Games Workshop from doing discounts if/when it pleases at some future date. In short, the perfect means to start pulling people into their own stores exists. This dovetails nicely into the fact that they are only building or maintaining stores that already have a healthy population of gamers (and didn't actually need a Games Workshop store).

I agree with you that they currently do earn most of their money (at least in the United States) through third party stores. This is because they lacked a distribution network. What we are seeing is the fact that Games Workshop has finally clued in on the fact that modern gamers use the internet a great deal and that there is, in fact, a distribution network they can subsume. More to the point, Games Workshop has now been selling to LGS in the United States long enough to have decent numbers and research of when/where to place. They know which stores, if no longer able to carry their product, would create overflow to their own shops. Games Workshop sells to third party vendors wholesale. The public is used to paying a certain price. If Games Workshop starts to sell direct as the vendor, it doubles it profit because it doesn't sell to itself wholesale. If they can manage the trick of rerouting the customer base (not easy) it is nothing but win for them.

[Wolfshade]

GW store opens
Horse eats its young
Two headed cat is born
Sheep start fornicating with goats
The earth cracks
Brimstone falls from the sky
FLGS closes
The world is rent asunder and humaity spills screaming and mewling into a cold, deathless void.

And that is why Mark Wells resigned.

[Psychosplodge]

to prepare?

[Mr Mystery]

Not yet... that will come soon enough though. That is the other shoe to drop. They are taking the first steps now by trying to eliminate all internet sales besides their own. This is rather huge since most stores today rely also on the internet. Very few "brick and mortar" stores don't make use of it. Telling an LGS you can't sell anything except over the counter is a huge change and it affects a rather large number of people, not just businesses that are entirely online. The other telling change is how much stock must be kept on the shelves and of "what kind." If you wean the LGS to a minimum of stock that largely must represent new product, you are already starting to setup a situation even in the brick and mortar stores where people must go to Games Workshop for a certain percentage of models.

It is also important to note that the sales Contracts which Games Workshop setups with third party vendors prohibits them from selling below a certain price but it is NOT reciprocal. This means nothing prevents Games Workshop from doing discounts if/when it pleases at some future date. In short, the perfect means to start pulling people into their own stores exists. This dovetails nicely into the fact that they are only building or maintaining stores that already have a healthy population of gamers (and didn't actually need a Games Workshop store).

I agree with you that they currently do earn most of their money (at least in the United States) through third party stores. This is because they lacked a distribution network. What we are seeing is the fact that Games Workshop has finally clued in on the fact that modern gamers use the internet a great deal and that there is, in fact, a distribution network they can subsume. More to the point, Games Workshop has now been selling to LGS in the United States long enough to have decent numbers and research of when/where to place. They know which stores, if no longer able to carry their product, would create overflow to their own shops. Games Workshop sells to third party vendors wholesale. The public is used to paying a certain price. If Games Workshop starts to sell direct as the vendor, it doubles it profit because it doesn't sell to itself wholesale. If they can manage the trick of rerouting the customer base (not easy) it is nothing but win for them.

Dude. Normally I kind of get your drift, even though I rarely agree...but you really are coming across paranoid on this one....

And remember, despite what those against GW would like to claim, they remain the largest hobby wargames company in the world, the most successful hobby wargames company in the world, are turning a decent little profit, and are in sales growth. Be very careful who is being labelled the apologists here...because you know, only one side has actual facts on it's side....

[Caitsidhe]

Dude. Normally I kind of get your drift, even though I rarely agree...but you really are coming across paranoid on this one....

As I said before, I realize my observations may well turn out wrong and I'll look foolish. I'll be the first to man up and say, "don't I feel silly," if this comes to pass. I don't make my commentary based on what I think will make me sound sage and brimming with wisdom, popular, or cool. I make my commentary based on the evidence I see; call them educated guesses if you will. Call it paranoia if you like that better (although this would be an inaccurate use of the term).


And remember, despite what those against GW would like to claim, they remain the largest hobby wargames company in the world, the most successful hobby wargames company in the world, are turning a decent little profit, and are in sales growth. Be very careful who is being labelled the apologists here...because you know, only one side has actual facts on it's side....

I would like to parse your words here. I'm not "against" Games Workshop. This indicates an odd bias in your statement, as if this is an "us versus them" situation. It is the very thing which makes you sound, quite often, like an apologist. You qualify anyone who says Games Workshop did something bad as being "against" them. This is a very Bush-Cheney way of qualifying the world, i.e. "you are either for us or against us." In regards to the facts, they aren't on anyone's side. Facts are just information and people like to spin information to claim that is is "on their side." Facts don't have sides. They don't care. Facts are facts. An economic analysis of the quarterly reports of Games Workshop over the last couple of years shows them in the black, but much of this is due to offsets (such as closing shops, reducing hours, increasing prices, and so on). It isn't due to real growth which is problematic for a company, particularly one which has been laying out lots of money on things like the rights to do The Hobbit. The health of a company is better tracked by eliminating any profit that is created by manipulating the books and assets. If you do these things you see a predictable lack of growth and in some cases a decline brought on by increased competition.

In short, Games Workshop is in the black for now, but in the long run there are only so many shops she can close, so many corners she can cut. Games Workshop must actually make inroads and increase profit. There are many ways to do this, but one of them... an ambitious, risky one is to go almost entirely to direct marketing. They are, after all, the owner of the IP, the producer of the product and can double profit if they don't have to use a middle man. I think it is a poor choice based on the growth of competition, but if they pull it off it will be one of the great business coups in history. I'm not anti-Games Workshop. I'm pro-consumer (me). Do I think it will be good for the Games Workshop consumer if they pull it off? No.

[Mr Mystery]

And again...they have increased sales volumes, and well beyond their price raises.

Company is doing just fine, and in one of the worst financial downturns in living memory. UK high street has been shredded, closures everywhere. GW? Hardly batted an eyelid, and made more money.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I don't drink coffee. At the moment I'm not even drinking sodas with caffeine. Be that as it may, I take no offense if you want to label me paranoid or nuts. My assessment is based simply on the facts with a particular emphasis on recent events. I would like to point out that paranoia requires an element of fear. I don't fear Games Workshop, nor do I think they are "out to get me." I have no ax to grind in the matter at all. My Games Workshop product comes from barter, prize support, and/or Ebay.



I never said I think Games Workshop are good at getting younger people into the hobby. I don't think younger people in the U.S. on the whole are interest in the hobby at all. Games Workshop has been around for quite some time and the ratio of young children involved in the hobby has always been a near flat line. Children, in general, don't go to boutique stores. They go to TOY stores, i.e. gaming shops with lots of variety. Young people who end up in a Games Workshop store do so only if their parents take them there. That just isn't the dominant culture over here. However, if I were to give your argument any credence, I would have to see a Games Workshop store setup to be inviting/appealing to the younger set. It isn't. They tend, in general, to be setup like the little stores that sell high end stereo equipment for your car.

We should always apply critical thinking skills. That isn't paranoia; it is commonsense. If recruitment was their actual goal, Games Workshop stores would be appearing in cities that lack a strong war-gaming presence but that have the right demographics (i.e. potential) for it. If they were aimed at the younger set, they would be appearing in locations were younger children are likely to be "walk ins" and be setup for people to spend more time in them. My point is that if "recruitment" is the goal for these stores and it is just accepted that they are going to be a "loss leader," they are being badly mismanaged for that purpose.

I don't believe they are intended as "loss leaders," or is "recruitment" more important than profit. I think those are the excuses given by people in the company trying to cover their own butts for doing a bad job and by those people who are apologists who simply don't want to call Games Workshop on really poor judgement. I think they place their stores in cities that already have large, healthy gaming populations because they want that business and then were puzzled when they didn't get it. I think their stores ended up financial losers because of bad management and now Games Workshop is changing tactics to try and salvage some timber from the deadfall. I think the people now in charge have a very concise, ambitious (if deluded) plan to try and dramatically alter how their product is placed on the market, consolidating it with themselves as the sole vendor and distribution network.


Yeah, you really proved you're not paranoid and only apply critical thinking.


Anyway, real talk, kids like Warhams, they love going in the shops and the staff in a GW will not only engage with them, they'll let them play and teach them how to paint, thats what gets them. Yes, wargaming is a niche, but there are reasons that GW are the major player within that niche, they get people young, like cigarette companies used to! Its how they do business and its how they've always done business, I don't know what is possesing you to ignore that and paint them as evil or stupid?

You obviously don't understand this business, a recruitment store isn't in any way a loss leader, GW say that most hobbyists spend more in the first 3 years than they will in the rest of the hobby, thats what they want, the kids who are going to come in, get hooked and spent all their pocket money, christmas and birthday money on Spess Marhines.

And you've never seen a GW shop set up to appeal to kids? Have you been in a GW??

Its covered in cool warriors in massive armour and monsters and aliens with guns that are arms, and swords that are also chainsaws. Its exactly what gets a 14 year old boy excited. Thats not a co-incidence.

They go to areas with established presence because those are the places that show they can support the hobby, if an area is too small, not enough product will be sold to make a profit.

Basically, you're not nearly as smart and superior as you like to think you are and you're coming across like a weirdo about this.

[Caitsidhe]

And again...they have increased sales volumes, and well beyond their price raises.

Company is doing just fine, and in one of the worst financial downturns in living memory. UK high street has been shredded, closures everywhere. GW? Hardly batted an eyelid, and made more money.

Do you see the difference between our analysis of those quarterly reports. Yours reads like a brochure trying to attract investors. Mine is simply an analysis of profits based on growth and manipulation of assets. We both arrive at the same conclusion, that they are currently in the black, but the tone and inferences you make are very different overall. How can you not be aware you sound like a cheerleader rather than someone making an objective analysis?

[Caitsidhe]

Basically, you're not nearly as smart and superior as you like to think you are and you're coming across like a weirdo about this.

That is a relief. I'd hate to be as smart and superior as I think I am. That would be a very great burden indeed. :)


3808

Also... in case that fails to attach...

http://skewsme.com/blog/2013/03/wile-e-coyote-super-genius/#axzz2Of6gLbnT

[OrksOrksOrks]

How can you not be aware you sound like a cheerleader rather than someone making an objective analysis?


how can you not be aware that you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist?

[Caitsidhe]

how can you not be aware that you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist?

Perhaps because I know the definitions of those words and how they apply? There is no conspiracy here. That would imply some great secret. Paranoia implies fear of which I have none. I am postulating a theory though, so one out of three isn't entirely bad. What I am stating is I believe that Games Workshop is taking a business gamble and is in the initial phase of trying to take over direct market of their own product. There is nothing evil in this nor is it a conspiracy (hell it isn't even subtle). I don't even begrudge them the notion. If it works it is one hell of a great business step (from their perspective not ours). I just have my doubts about them pulling it off.

[Psychosplodge]

And again...they have increased sales volumes, and well beyond their price raises.


I'm sure in the legal case papers it actually showed volumes were down, but revenue was up.


But Caitsidhe They've always primarily sold the product direct here, it's only really in the US where they seem more reliant on the third party retailer, yes they exist here to a lesser degree but GW have always been about their own high street presence. It's not really a new direction?

[Caitsidhe]

I'm sure in the legal case papers it actually showed volumes were down, but revenue was up.


But Caitsidhe They've always primarily sold the product direct here, it's only really in the US where they seem more reliant on the third party retailer, yes they exist here to a lesser degree but GW have always been about their own high street presence. It's not really a new direction?


Agreed. It isn't a new direction for them in Europe. They want what they have over there... here. :) I don't begrudge them that. I just don't think it will work the way they want.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm sure in the legal case papers it actually showed volumes were down, but revenue was up.


But Caitsidhe They've always primarily sold the product direct here, it's only really in the US where they seem more reliant on the third party retailer, yes they exist here to a lesser degree but GW have always been about their own high street presence. It's not really a new direction?

As long as the money increases, I don't think the board care overly :) But yes, poor wording on my part.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Paranoia implies fear of which I have none.

No it doesn't.

[Caitsidhe]

No it doesn't.

Delusions of persecution imply fear of said persecution. I don't feel persecuted. I don't fear being persecuted. But you and I need not quibble and get side lined. You and I have the next two years to watch this unfold and since it is unlikely either of us is going to convince the other, the best thing to do is sit back and watch. I've got my popcorn.

[JMichael]

Wait, who offers discounts? I've been in san diego for 3 years and this is the first I'm hearing of this. As far as the original topic, I hope the customers stay loyal to the LGS, and don't jump ship. They do a lot more for the community and I know I would rather help a small business keep the lights on.

I've been told they all do, but if you are active or retired military and have your ID (or even DD-214) then certainly ask!

But I know the 3 following do for sure.
Game Empire
Game Towne
Villainous Lair Gaming

Pretty sure the remaining 3 do as well.
At Ease Games
Pair o Dice
Game Rave

[Wise Ol Bird]

GW opened a new store in Va Beach in January. Somewhat similar demographics. We will see how things turn out.

BTW, GW did not do a good job of advertising the new store. I happened upon it by chance. I would have expected a least one email going"hey, look over hear"

[JMichael]

GW opened a new store in Va Beach in January. Somewhat similar demographics. We will see how things turn out.

BTW, GW did not do a good job of advertising the new store. I happened upon it by chance. I would have expected a least one email going"hey, look over hear"

Same here. I just happened to notice it on GW's list of retailers.
The store has a facebook page, but no real effort to advertise to the public.
I will say they are the perfect area (location could be better), surrounded by upper middle class neighborhoods with tons of kids, nothing much to do in the area, and parents with money!

[Herzlos]

And again...they have increased sales volumes, and well beyond their price raises.

Sales volume appears to have decreased, though profits have increased by a small margin. So they are doing well now but the long-term trend doesn't look good if the sales keep decreasing.


Company is doing just fine, and in one of the worst financial downturns in living memory. UK high street has been shredded, closures everywhere. GW? Hardly batted an eyelid, and made more money.

I wouldn't say they've hardly batted an eyelid. They've survived but they've had to make some serious cost savings across the board, including the closing/relocation or downsizing of stores and reduction of store staffing (many stores are 1-man now, whereas that was unheard of pre-recession) and services.

They are still going, and still profitable, but I'm not sure where they'll be in another 5-10 years unless they can turn things round.

[Wolfshade]

They are still going, and still profitable, but I'm not sure where they'll be in another 5-10 years unless they can turn things round.

GW has been growing and expanding since 1975, I think over the last 38 years they know what they are doing, even if we the consumers do not always see it/agree.

[Mr Mystery]

GW has been growing and expanding since 1975, I think over the last 38 years they know what they are doing, even if we the consumers do not always see it/agree.

Indeed. There is a large difference between closing and relocating stores. They continue to refurbish what they have, sometimes relocating, and continue to open new stores.

Hands up people in retail land that can say this? And this is whilst growing their profit margin, and takings going up. Things are very much turned round.

[Herzlos]

I agree they are doing quite well to still be going, but expanding they aren't. They posted profits because of huge cost cutting measures.

There are plenty of retail chains that are still fine, and plenty that have folded, and plenty who have had to cut staff back. I can't think of any companies on that scale that have cut staff and retail costs as severely as they have (reduced opening hours, minimum staff count, store size reduction or cheaper locations).

I'm also sure they'll be in a good position to scale back up after the recession, but I'm not sure how much reputation and market share hit they'll have taken by that point.

It's probably also worth pointing out that whilst GW has been going since 1975, the world is somewhat different now, as are the staff that make up GW. A lot of the people who made GW great have moved on so it's not the same company it was 30 years ago (and neither should it be).

[eldargal]

Some historical context is useful here; until 2005 GW sales were growing, in 2005/6 they collapsed (revenue halved or something, it was huge) from 2006-8 as far as we can tell they started going up again and GW started restructuring after the 2005/6 collapse. In 2008 the GFC hit and sales and revenue in Europe started declining. It is possible that the decline in sales volume is a reflection of that rather than any particular trend of customers away from GW. We won't know until the economic situation stabilises.

As to reputation, consumers have short memories.

[Mr Mystery]

Worth also noting their share price seems fairly resilient, which says something about confidence in them, and I have to say I'm willing to bet the share holders (Pension companies hold a lot, according to the annual report) know a lot more about these things than anyone here present (certainly more than myself. I'm proper rubbish with money!)

So we're swing a company willing to restructure, that's a market leader. PWC give them a virtual monopoly on UK sales, and the UK represents one of their largest customer bases (no surprises). If memory serves, last annual report showed all sectors of its operation in profit, including Oz, which after. Their 'embargo' the interwebular predicted would collapse.

As a company, their borrowing is practically non-existent, which is a healthy sign. Any expansion is performed through actual cash (could be incorrect term) rather than increased borrowing.

They are also a very peculiar business. No other player in their field has their own stores, and whilst yes that does come at a financial price, it gives them an unrivalled edge and market presence.

As for their competitors, not being public ally owned renders them unknown quantities. Nobody but their owners knows their profit and turnover. Internet people postulate, and list anecdotes. I read one sight which based on interviews with the companies and FLGS, placed Warmahordes as 2nd after 40k, and ahead of Fantasy in the US. Whilst I cast no aspersions on the veracity of their findings, it is impossible to draw any firm conclusion based on that info, as at least from what I read, no gathered info was published.

So we can only truly rely on GW's published results. I know some feel they are cooking the books, but that's pretty much impossible to substantiate. What we do know is that as the single biggest player, GW are more likely to maintain, and lose market share as more competitors come forward. It each of those losses could be going to any one of those companies.

Overall, GW are looking pretty robust as a company.

[Warptiger]

Cutting off sales to retailers would be insane. If you carry GW products at all in your store, you've probably have a couple thousand dollars of their product sitting on your shelves (or more). Product that's already been purchased and paid for by the retailer. Games Workshop already made money, even if the retailer can't sell it. In that case, you want as many stores as possible... 20, 30, 50, 100. Every single store has to buy a certain amount of product to fill their shelves.

You want to be like the merchant selling picks and pans to the gold miners in a gold rush. You don't care if the miners strike it rich, go broke, or dump the stuff on the ground five seconds after they buy it... you're still getting paid by every single one of them (and at inflated rates too), and you're making money off the fact your product is in demand.

Cutting off retailers would be like the merchant in the example above deciding it's better to take all the equipment and go try panning for gold himself. Yeah, you might strike it rich, but more likely you won't. You assume all the risk. The merchant who's selling gear to the gold miners has hardly any risk at all (about the only risk is not spotting that the demand has peaked, and getting stuck with a warehouse full of picks no one wants anymore).

It really doesn't make a lot of sense at all, and it doesn't dovetail with anything they've done in recent memory. It's like the tournament scene. Games Workshop pretty much walked away from that, and with good reason. There are tons of independent tournaments all over the place now, and they don't need to be involved in it anymore. They ran them long enough to get it jumpstarted, and then let nature take it's course. I've been playing 40K since 1st edition, and I remember you could count the number of tournaments in a year on one hand, and still have plenty of fingers left over.

I actually consider the fact that GW even has brick and mortar stores slightly surreal. Always seemed like some half baked attempt to make the hobby more "mainstream".

[Psychosplodge]

Worth also noting their share price seems fairly resilient, which says something about confidence in them, and I have to say I'm willing to bet the share holders (Pension companies hold a lot, according to the annual report) know a lot more about these things than anyone here present (certainly more than myself. I'm proper rubbish with money!)


I once read an interview with a financial analyst that said if the people running pension funds knew what they were doing they'd be running hedge funds.

[Psychosplodge]

forum double post

[Mr Mystery]

I once read an interview with a financial analyst that said if the people running pension funds knew what they were doing they'd be running hedge funds.

Still know more than us :).

Unless some of us run hedge funds. In which case I say shame on you :p

[Psychosplodge]

Still know more than us :).

Unless some of us run hedge funds. In which case I say shame on you :p

Have you seen the state of pension funds recently?
And if I was running a hedge fund I'd keep better hours :D