MWG Closing

[Liazardman]

Not sure if anyone has posted this elsewhere but Miniwargaming up here in Canada looks like it is one of the first casualties of GW's new policy's. I'm not sure who has heard of/visited this store/site but it has been great for hobby support and all kinds of other things for years.

Here is the official announcement, if nothing else its a great point by point walk through of GW's new policy and its potential effect on at least one company's business model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA)

[Badtucker]

Its not just about gws change in policy.

[LordGrise]

Linky no worky!

[gresha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA

[Kawauso]

Sadness. =/

[Deadlift]

It's the store closing, the excellent website and vault will still be available. I encourage anyone to sign up as its a great resource of videos etc.

[TheBitzBarn]

He made some excellent points in the Video. Really Ripped GW reasons to shreds showing them to be moron or Liars. Not sure which is worse.

[Wolfshade]

Doesn't this kind of emphasis GWs point.
The firm is closing because they had no diversity, or the diversity in range was not enough to cover their costs, so the only thing that they did was to route GW sales via a third party.
A company that is soley dependent on one supplier is always going to be at risk if the supplier changed their way of working. Similiarly what would they have done if GW stopped the trade discount althougther so they had to buy at RRP, or decided to wind up operations.
It is ashame for the owner, employees and users, but the goods i.e. GW stock is still readily available elsewhere, albiet at an increased cost.
The resources they provided video tutorials etc was above and beyond what some online sellers produce but in themselves not a money making resource and arguably not adding any greater value than that of a fan site.

[jgebi]

I just want to say GW is a company so it's up to them theirs not point *****ing about it, and as most people should know business is war and in war their are always casualties. Well not for the necrons but any way the point still stands

[Tyrendian]

Doesn't this kind of emphasis GWs point.
The firm is closing because they had no diversity, or the diversity in range was not enough to cover their costs, so the only thing that they did was to route GW sales via a third party.
A company that is soley dependent on one supplier is always going to be at risk if the supplier changed their way of working. Similiarly what would they have done if GW stopped the trade discount althougther so they had to buy at RRP, or decided to wind up operations.
It is ashame for the owner, employees and users, but the goods i.e. GW stock is still readily available elsewhere, albiet at an increased cost.
The resources they provided video tutorials etc was above and beyond what some online sellers produce but in themselves not a money making resource and arguably not adding any greater value than that of a fan site.

kinda agree to your first point - MWG were at risk because they depended on GW sales for a lot of their revenue... though that doesn't make it any nicer of GW...
And that increased price for the products will probably cost GW a lot of customers in CA (and elsewhere as more stores follow MWG's course)
But one correction: as Matt pointed out clearly, they ARE making money (and a reasonable amount it sounds like) with their videos - their Vault to be precise... let's hope that's enough to keep them alive together with Dark Potential, because the vids they do are great...

[Gir]

Doesn't this kind of emphasis GWs point.
The firm is closing because they had no diversity, or the diversity in range was not enough to cover their costs, so the only thing that they did was to route GW sales via a third party.
A company that is soley dependent on one supplier is always going to be at risk if the supplier changed their way of working. Similiarly what would they have done if GW stopped the trade discount althougther so they had to buy at RRP, or decided to wind up operations.
It is ashame for the owner, employees and users, but the goods i.e. GW stock is still readily available elsewhere, albiet at an increased cost.
The resources they provided video tutorials etc was above and beyond what some online sellers produce but in themselves not a money making resource and arguably not adding any greater value than that of a fan site.

Most game shops rely on GW to stay open as they tend to be the best sellers and have good margin for the sellers.

[daboarder]

I just want to say GW is a company so it's up to them theirs not point *****ing about it, and as most people should know business is war and in war their are always casualties. Well not for the necrons but any way the point still stands


Oh go away please, its this ambivalent acceptance of corporate behavior in the name of ever increasing obscene profit, that has lead to the septic nature of the modern economy.

we KNOW that GW is supposedly legally allowed to do this, we KNOW that they have a duty to the company and we KNOW that any indignation on our part is unlikely to change anything, but as rational non-selfish people its still sickens us to see greed taken so far.

[Wolfshade]

I would point out that if we are truely non-selfish then we would be less capitalist and more socialist/communist.

[daboarder]

I would point out that if we are truely non-selfish then we would be less capitalist and more socialist/communist.

happy medium is the key to a society that does not stagnate, degenerate and ultimately destroy itself under its own extremes.

[Caitsidhe]

Most game shops rely on GW to stay open as they tend to be the best sellers and have good margin for the sellers.

Actually, no. Most shops in the U.S. (I can't comment on Australia) are highly diversified and Games Workshop only makes up a fraction of their sales. Games Workshop is taking the "gamble" that they can reroute the online sales to themselves. That remains to be seen. Attacking one's own distribution net (i.e. sales) seems an odd way to go about things particularly as competition grows (and will continue to grow). Sales through online and brick and mortar made the SAME money for Games Workshop. This is important to understand because every online store that closes is lost sales unless they make up those sales with the redirect or location.

I don't expect, since they aren't being offered any more compensation, that most brick and mortar stores are going to carry anymore stock than they did before. Some may stop carrying it altogether if they also have an online store or the other requirements too intrusive. Again, since brick and mortar stores only get more regulated by the new policy, it is no way assures they will make more sales to compensate what was lost (particularly if they supposedly can't adjust the prices the way they see fit). Do you see where this is going?

Games Workshop believes (for some reason) that:

1. Increasing costs across the board to consumers will not lose them sales.
2. Reducing sales outlets in their distribution system will not lose them sales.
3. That bad press will not lose them sales.
4. That increased competition will not lose them sales, particularly when said competition does NOT use said policies.
5. That independent stores (particularly in America) will not react badly to authority and thus hurt sales.
6. That by locking things down they are securing their market rather than creating an even bigger one (like say prohibition).
7. That attempting to manipulate the market across multiple countries won't embroil them in more expensive legal woes.
8. That they can control the internet in the first place when giants like the music and film industry already lost this battle.
9. That nerd-rage and angry consumers is all just hot air and nothing ever comes of it.
10. That they, Games Workshop, ARE the hobby and not just merchants providing for a larger hobby called Wargaming.

Any three of these delusions could be devastating under the right conditions. Think about what all ten can do under any conditions. New game systems are coming out in droves and many of them are quite good. The average quality of the models in these start up companies is coming off very good and getting better all the time. Games Workshop has just HANDED their competition the biggest gift a small, up and coming company can get. They get a MARKET. They get to be the "good guys" who don't put limitations and policies in places to restrict distribution. They don't require minimum stock. They just want their product out there and are lean and hungry, i.e. the perfect supplier for stores and consumers. Think about that, and then consider the wisdom of Games Workshop making this move... now.

[Defenestratus]

Oh go away please, its this ambivalent acceptance of corporate behavior in the name of ever increasing obscene profit, that has lead to the septic nature of the modern economy.

we KNOW that GW is supposedly legally allowed to do this, we KNOW that they have a duty to the company and we KNOW that any indignation on our part is unlikely to change anything, but as rational non-selfish people its still sickens us to see greed taken so far.

As a devout Capitalist, I'm all for GW maximizing its profit, EPS, etc...

What I disagree with is their methods through which they seek to accomplish that. I see the latest retailer policy as bad for their consumers, and therefore in the end, bad for the company. Caitsidhe hit the nail on the head with his post.

[Learn2Eel]

Actually, no. Most shops in the U.S. (I can't comment on Australia) are highly diversified and Games Workshop only makes up a fraction of their sales. Games Workshop is taking the "gamble" that they can reroute the online sales to themselves. That remains to be seen. Attacking one's own distribution net (i.e. sales) seems an odd way to go about things particularly as competition grows (and will continue to grow). Sales through online and brick and mortar made the SAME money for Games Workshop. This is important to understand because every online store that closes is lost sales unless they make up those sales with the redirect or location.

I don't expect, since they aren't being offered any more compensation, that most brick and mortar stores are going to carry anymore stock than they did before. Some may stop carrying it altogether if they also have an online store or the other requirements too intrusive. Again, since brick and mortar stores only get more regulated by the new policy, it is no way assures they will make more sales to compensate what was lost (particularly if they supposedly can't adjust the prices the way they see fit). Do you see where this is going?

Games Workshop believes (for some reason) that:

1. Increasing costs across the board to consumers will not lose them sales.
2. Reducing sales outlets in their distribution system will not lose them sales.
3. That bad press will not lose them sales.
4. That increased competition will not lose them sales, particularly when said competition does NOT use said policies.
5. That independent stores (particularly in America) will not react badly to authority and thus hurt sales.
6. That by locking things down they are securing their market rather than creating an even bigger one (like say prohibition).
7. That attempting to manipulate the market across multiple countries won't embroil them in more expensive legal woes.
8. That they can control the internet in the first place when giants like the music and film industry already lost this battle.
9. That nerd-rage and angry consumers is all just hot air and nothing ever comes of it.
10. That they, Games Workshop, ARE the hobby and not just merchants providing for a larger hobby called Wargaming.

Any three of these delusions could be devastating under the right conditions. Think about what all ten can do under any conditions. New game systems are coming out in droves and many of them are quite good. The average quality of the models in these start up companies is coming off very good and getting better all the time. Games Workshop has just HANDED their competition the biggest gift a small, up and coming company can get. They get a MARKET. They get to be the "good guys" who don't put limitations and policies in places to restrict distribution. They don't require minimum stock. They just want their product out there and are lean and hungry, i.e. the perfect supplier for stores and consumers. Think about that, and then consider the wisdom of Games Workshop making this move... now.

Have to agree here. A lot of there business decisions lately are only going to end in tears - granted, unless they know something we don't.

Sad to hear about MWG (and other affected retailers). I've never bought from there before, but businesses being shut down for no good reason at all is not at all a good look for GW - granted of course that their new policies and the like are not the only factors in play here. From a personal perspective, I can see the "no selling to other countries" policy leading to GW's Australian sales going up in flames; the amount of people I know that buy online because the Australian prices are so ridiculous (granted, as a good friend explained to me our average salary is higher than in North America and many other countries) is staggering, to say the least. Whilst I can afford the higher prices and I don't mind the idea of supporting my local store, there's no doubt that a lot of people will be really upset about this move. Many Aussie war-gamers simply can't afford what we are charged down under, it is an expensive hobby either way but our prices are ridiculously higher than anywhere else (obviously New Zealand is in the same boat as us). Again, it doesn't bother me too much, but I bet a lot of people are going to be incensed by the move...

I'll always support GW as I love WH40K, and have done so for over ten years (since I was a child), but I just hope they are still around in the next ten years, which is what I am betting many are increasingly more worried about.

[Tynskel]

Meh.

The reality is that Games Workshop provides a fantastic product. The price they sell the product is inexpensive (possibly even an order of magnitude inexpensive) in comparison to other products along the same quality.

[Caitsidhe]

I can see the "no selling to other countries" policy leading to GW's Australian sales going up in flames; the amount of people I know that buy online because the Australian prices are so ridiculous (granted, as a good friend explained to me our average salary is higher than in North America and many other countries) is staggering, to say the least.

This is just an alien idea to me. You are buying the same bits of plastic as we are over here. It has no more value in Australia than it does here but they think YOU should pay more. In America we call this discrimination. It wouldn't be legal here because it is clearly based on on where you come from. They might as well be saying, "Screw those Australian guys. They make too much money."


Whilst I can afford the higher prices and I don't mind the idea of supporting my local store, there's no doubt that a lot of people will be really upset about this move. Many Aussie war-gamers simply can't afford what we are charged down under, it is an expensive hobby either way but our prices are ridiculously higher than anywhere else (obviously New Zealand is in the same boat as us). Again, it doesn't bother me too much, but I bet a lot of people are going to be incensed by the move...

As well they should be. I hope they just play the games they like and use models provided by OTHER companies. Plenty of models will continue to be on Ebay and I fully expect plenty of people to get around the silly policy and force Games Workshop to spend money trying to enforce it. Nothing like further killing one's own distribution net, like cutting off the nose to spite the face.


I'll always support GW as I love WH40K, and have done so for over ten years (since I was a child), but I just hope they are still around in the next ten years, which is what I am betting many are increasingly more worried about.

You should be worried. Everything Games Workshop has been doing as well as an EDUCATED look at their quarterly reports indicates a company that is in trouble. They have offset losses by closing stores to try and make themselves look in the black. They invested big in Tolkien brand (and that wasn't cheap I assure you) and have yet to see a real return. They are engaged in more and more legal debacles and bad press. All of these things are a desperate kind of flailing around to secure the old dynasty, an unwillingness to accept the market has changed and they must change with it.

[ElectricPaladin]

Actually, no. Most shops in the U.S. (I can't comment on Australia) are highly diversified and Games Workshop only makes up a fraction of their sales. Games Workshop is taking the "gamble" that they can reroute the online sales to themselves. That remains to be seen. Attacking one's own distribution net (i.e. sales) seems an odd way to go about things particularly as competition grows (and will continue to grow). Sales through online and brick and mortar made the SAME money for Games Workshop. This is important to understand because every online store that closes is lost sales unless they make up those sales with the redirect or location.

I don't expect, since they aren't being offered any more compensation, that most brick and mortar stores are going to carry anymore stock than they did before. Some may stop carrying it altogether if they also have an online store or the other requirements too intrusive. Again, since brick and mortar stores only get more regulated by the new policy, it is no way assures they will make more sales to compensate what was lost (particularly if they supposedly can't adjust the prices the way they see fit). Do you see where this is going?

Games Workshop believes (for some reason) that:

1. Increasing costs across the board to consumers will not lose them sales.
2. Reducing sales outlets in their distribution system will not lose them sales.
3. That bad press will not lose them sales.
4. That increased competition will not lose them sales, particularly when said competition does NOT use said policies.
5. That independent stores (particularly in America) will not react badly to authority and thus hurt sales.
6. That by locking things down they are securing their market rather than creating an even bigger one (like say prohibition).
7. That attempting to manipulate the market across multiple countries won't embroil them in more expensive legal woes.
8. That they can control the internet in the first place when giants like the music and film industry already lost this battle.
9. That nerd-rage and angry consumers is all just hot air and nothing ever comes of it.
10. That they, Games Workshop, ARE the hobby and not just merchants providing for a larger hobby called Wargaming.

Any three of these delusions could be devastating under the right conditions. Think about what all ten can do under any conditions. New game systems are coming out in droves and many of them are quite good. The average quality of the models in these start up companies is coming off very good and getting better all the time. Games Workshop has just HANDED their competition the biggest gift a small, up and coming company can get. They get a MARKET. They get to be the "good guys" who don't put limitations and policies in places to restrict distribution. They don't require minimum stock. They just want their product out there and are lean and hungry, i.e. the perfect supplier for stores and consumers. Think about that, and then consider the wisdom of Games Workshop making this move... now.

Basically? I agree.

Games Workshop suffers - and has, for a long time - from Only Game In Town Syndrome (OGITS). Wizards of the Coast and TSR both suffered from OGITS in their day. Companies suffering from OGITS are under the delusion that their customers have no other options. They will continue to abuse their customers, ignore their input, ignore their desires, and refuse to spend time and energy upgrading their product and PR practices to match the modern day.

The thing is, GW isn't the only game in town. GW sells their rulebooks for $60? Corvus Belli releases theirs for free. GW releases models months and years after the books come out? Privateer Press releases them months before the books come out. GW starts releasing models in an inferior medium at higher prices? PP makes the jump to plastic and lowers prices. GW will eventually feel the hurt as their practices drive customers away. Some people I know theorize that the new push in 6th to balance the rules are part of that dawning realization.

Fortunately, GW is a big company and this is unlikely to kill them. If they have half a brain in charge, sooner or later, they'll realize that they have OGITS and try to change course.

[Deadlift]

Could all of this be a precursor for big expansion into the US. Take out everyone else and then move in and grab the customers ?

[Renegade]

So the way round this is to open a sister store somewhere in Europe, Jersey is a good as low price location, and to the online trading from there.

Now I understand that joe bloggs in north America or Australia may not have the funds for this, but this is what partnerships are for.

If GW threatens the store in an unfair way, it has two lots of legislation and choose where to fight back.

[Caitsidhe]

Could all of this be a precursor for big expansion into the US. Take out everyone else and then move in and grab the customers ?

God I hope so. That would be HILARIOUS. They have already proven totally inept at running stores in the U.S. market. It would be very amusing to see them double down and try to push stores which are diversified and provide support to their customers out of business with their tiny stores which are not diversified and provide almost nothing.

This won't happen and isn't about to happen because Games Workshop HAS learned their lesson. They are closing stores and have given up on that gambit. Now they are going to try and ramrod the independent stores as their sales proxies. This clearly indicates they need to learn another lesson.

[Wolfshade]

Actually, no. Most shops in the U.S. are highly diversified and Games Workshop only makes up a fraction of their sales. Games Workshop is taking the "gamble" that they can reroute the online sales to themselves. That remains to be seen. Attacking one's own distribution net (i.e. sales) seems an odd way to go about things particularly as competition grows (and will continue to grow). Sales through online and brick and mortar made the SAME money for Games Workshop. This is important to understand because every online store that closes is lost sales unless they make up those sales with the redirect or location.

I doubt that anyone has done an diversity study of what ranges are held and from whom. Indeed the only market share analysis that I am aware of is the one that was performed by PWC several years ago that gave GW a 95% market share in the UK.

In the case of the PWC report it was included in the relevant years AGM minutes and I would expect that a US market share analysis to similiarly be included.

GW would consider the other e-sellers to be direct competion to their own distribution net, not complementary since buying online is easy and straight forward. They would probably also see these e-sellers as not a growing market but "taking off the top" of existing hobbyists, without the e-sellers developing the hobby base, the same way (f)LGS do. I would agree that if the sales are not re-directed to another GW source either directly or indirectly that this is a lost sale.

I am not sure that the discounted sale through a competitors website is worth the same as a sale from a GW sale point be it birck and motor or through their own website, indeed the higher cost at a GW store would suggest that they could increase profit by making people buy direct.




I don't expect, since they aren't being offered any more compensation, that most brick and mortar stores are going to carry anymore stock than they did before. Some may stop carrying it altogether if they also have an online store or the other requirements too intrusive. Again, since brick and mortar stores only get more regulated by the new policy, it is no way assures they will make more sales to compensate what was lost (particularly if they supposedly can't adjust the prices the way they see fit). Do you see where this is going?

I can see where this is going and it is quite simple, GW want a single item cost across an entire region, the higher prices incurred by the physical stores puts them (both GW and LGS) at a disadvantage via e-sellers. It is these hobby centres which are important for the market to grow. There is little point having 17.5 million different online sellers of a hobby line if there isn't a community to purchase it and while these e-sellers are an advantage to us the confirmed hobbyists, afterall who doesn't like to purchase as cheap as possible, it does little in the way of increasing "passing trade".



Games Workshop believes (for some reason) that:

1. Increasing costs across the board to consumers will not lose them sales.
2. Reducing sales outlets in their distribution system will not lose them sales.
3. That bad press will not lose them sales.
4. That increased competition will not lose them sales, particularly when said competition does NOT use said policies.
5. That independent stores (particularly in America) will not react badly to authority and thus hurt sales.
6. That by locking things down they are securing their market rather than creating an even bigger one (like say prohibition).
7. That attempting to manipulate the market across multiple countries won't embroil them in more expensive legal woes.
8. That they can control the internet in the first place when giants like the music and film industry already lost this battle.
9. That nerd-rage and angry consumers is all just hot air and nothing ever comes of it.
10. That they, Games Workshop, ARE the hobby and not just merchants providing for a larger hobby called Wargaming.


1. Sales are irrelevant, profit is what matters, if GW sells 10 items and makes £100 profit, or 1 item and makes £100 profit, it doesn't care as profit is profit and increasing sales does not necessarily lead to increased profit. There was a good article on price elasticity on the BoLS front page describing how changes in cost/sales effect items. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/editorial-gw-double-edged-sword-of.html)

2. GW distribution system is unchanged, it is reducing it's competitors. I can still just as readily buy online from GW direct as I always have, the choice of vendor is diminished, not the distribution, which is handled through logist companies.

3. We are all heavily invested into our hobby, and given the amount of time, effort and money I am not sure that it will reduce sales. How much bad press does Apple get from using alleged slave/child labour to produce their goods and that does not seem to reduce demand in any appreciable way.

4. I am not sure how they are increasing competition, if MWG is evidence then they are reducing competition.

5. The indy stores will need to evaluate what % of their profit comes from GW sales, and how much fringe benefit they get e.g. come in for GW product X and then pick up alternative company's Y. What GW are doing is moving in a very capitalistic way to maximise their sales I am sure any store owner will recognise this. Compare this really with the effect that WHSmith demands on White Dwarf, GW stopped supplying it to WHSmith and as a conseuqence increased its direct sales/subscriptions, thoguh again this did limit the passing traffic.

6. This is what they are trying to do but unlike prohibition, GW are the sole producer of their brand of tabletop wargames whereas anyone can make alcohol.

7. Now this one I do agree with, one would have to imagine that their lawyers looked very carefully at local/national and international laws to ensure what they are doing is legal. I do not know enough about international commerce laws to verify this, but I would cite their sucessful control of the Australia/New Zealand market several years ago that has not been sucessfully challenged as far as I am aware. Though e-sales are much more difficult as questions of jurisdiction are harder to prove. Where is the point of sale? The location that the consumer accessed the website, the delivery location, the location of the server holding the website, the location of the company running the website, the location of that companies bank...

8. I don't think that they are trying to control the internet. Certainly the internet sales, but there is a significant difference between the music industry, music/film/video games/computer software can all be copied and created digitally, but I cannot "download" a gretchin (yet, in a few years with better 3D printers that might be the case), the physical item cannot be obtain illegally, though obviously the books and audio books can be and are availble.

9. I think unfortunately that this is quite the problem, most of us are angry at price increases but we bare the increased costs because we have invested too much time/effort/money to give up on the product, or we believe that we are still getting good value for a money. A lot of forum talk after the last round of price hikes was less to do with people stop making their purchases but that they would spend the same money but buy less frequently.

10. The only market share analysis performed suggest tha they are the majority of teh table top war games hobby, but I think that this is a mistake that we make. After all, as I have previously pointed out, this should be in Wargames Corporate, not 40k News and Rumours. We are just as guilty of thinking that GW are the hobby and this mindset is not helpful to us.




Any three of these delusions could be devastating under the right conditions. Think about what all ten can do under any conditions. New game systems are coming out in droves and many of them are quite good. The average quality of the models in these start up companies is coming off very good and getting better all the time. Games Workshop has just HANDED their competition the biggest gift a small, up and coming company can get. They get a MARKET. They get to be the "good guys" who don't put limitations and policies in places to restrict distribution. They don't require minimum stock. They just want their product out there and are lean and hungry, i.e. the perfect supplier for stores and consumers. Think about that, and then consider the wisdom of Games Workshop making this move... now.

The start up companies have a market, but that market is existing hobbyists, this market has always existed. Indeed it would be niave to talk about table top wargaming and not mention what GW has done for it, one has to look at the huge sucesses of DoW computer games and how that has converted gamers to wargamers and has made people aware of the whole sector. If the competition is good enough, then it will grow and develope naturally. I would also observe that a start up has significant cost implications over an established company, one only has to look at the recent wargaming that have failed.

While writting this I considered that perhaps this is the point at which GW consider that they have enough market penetration to take over all sales of GW in this area, and by re-routing sales directly from GW that they are then going to be increasing their profit to fund brick stores to recruit new gamers and put the hard effort in in converting passing traffic to hobbyists

[Tynskel]

I still haven't understood where people come up with 'abuse'.

Their products are cheaper and better than almost everything on the market.

[Caitsidhe]

@Wolfshade: The great thing about this debate is that we will see the results in the next two years. Both of us will be alive to see how the chips fall. I'm made my observations and I'll be willing to eat crow if I'm wrong. I feel fairly confident. What Games Workshop is attempting has not been accomplished by any company in a LONG time.

[ElectricPaladin]

I still haven't understood where people come up with 'abuse'.

Their products are cheaper and better than almost everything on the market.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

Sure, overcharging for tiny plastic spacemen is hardly "abuse" but I don't think their products are cheaper or better than anything on the market, let alone everything.

Let us not argue the relative quality and value of GW's product, however. Certainly, they have a right to sell their product as though it were the bee's knees. Confidence is good for you. At the very least, I think, you should acknowledge that there are a lot of options out there and GW is not categorically the top of the heap for everyone.

[Wolfshade]

@Wolfshade: The great thing about this debate is that we will see the results in the next two years. Both of us will be alive to see how the chips fall. I'm made my observations and I'll be willing to eat crow if I'm wrong. I feel fairly confident. What Games Workshop is attempting has not been accomplished by any company in a LONG time.

I completly agree with you. It ultimately comes down to one gamble, is the customer loyal to the product or the seller.

If it is the product GW are quids in, if not well we'll see a bit of a U-turn.

I think the thinking behind this move is that these e-sellers take the cream from the top.
That is physical hobby stores put the hard work in converting passing trade to hobbyists, and a lot of that work is not directly profit making. Spending 1 hour taking someone through the intro game is not sales, and for then that person to be hooked and turn round and say, "Brilliant, I'm hooked, let me just buy this game from your competitor" is a bit disheartening to say the least, the e-seller has just profiteered of the back of the physical store. If we consider the relationship in that sense, it is parasitic. Whereas the non-GW lgs are more symbiotic.

[Renegade]

God I hope so. That would be HILARIOUS. They have already proven totally inept at running stores in the U.S. market. It would be very amusing to see them double down and try to push stores which are diversified and provide support to their customers out of business with their tiny stores which are not diversified and provide almost nothing.

This won't happen and isn't about to happen because Games Workshop HAS learned their lesson. They are closing stores and have given up on that gambit. Now they are going to try and ramrod the independent stores as their sales proxies. This clearly indicates they need to learn another lesson.

I think the problem with GWs experience in the US is more down to how it was implemented. If they had done as they have in the UK, which is to have 2 or 3 stores in each city and one or two in each large town, it would have worked better. They have to compete against a lot of others in the UK, but they appear close to the town centres and bus stops, school routes.

I think was is really getting the US goat is that a UK company is the leading player in this field, and is telling US companies how it will do business, something that that is often on the other foot.

However unfair people think this is, one only has to look at US companies to see that this is not just GW, but how a lot of the bigger players act, particularly those from the US.

[StarWarsDoug]

Privateer Press releases them months before the books come out.

It's really not a valuable exercise to turn this into a PP vs GW Debate. PP has their own numerous issues. Their plastics are vastly insuperior in detail, they have models which become impossible to stock for months on end (Gatormen?), blah blah blah.

I think the most important point to take here is GW behaves in a manner that offends many of their purchasing base. And they haven't learned their lesson over the years. Question is, will they ever, or will they drive off the fans?

[juliusb]

GW needs to stop acting like a defense contractor and more like a games company. They need to focus a little less on profits and controlling everything and more on making a fun, ACCESSIBLE GAME.

[Mr Mystery]

Key word there is company.

They are there to make as much profit as possible. Like every other company out there. Not sure why some seem to struggle with that concept.

As for accessibility, that is the point of this move. Internet sales do not grow the hobby. Bricks and mortar stores do, through intro gaming, running events and generally encouraging play.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's really not a valuable exercise to turn this into a PP vs GW Debate. PP has their own numerous issues. Their plastics are vastly insuperior in detail, they have models which become impossible to stock for months on end (Gatormen?), blah blah blah.


I don't want to get into a competition, either. I'm just trying to point out that GW's behavior seems predicated on the idea that they have no competition, so they can charge as much as they want and act however they want... but that's not true anymore.

[Deadlift]

I would like to see a poll on here to see if GWs recent decision in regards to sales will effect personal brand loyalty.

I know there are many forum contributors that are far more wordy than me and could put an interesting poll together ;)

[Tynskel]

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

Sure, overcharging for tiny plastic spacemen is hardly "abuse" but I don't think their products are cheaper or better than anything on the market, let alone everything.

Let us not argue the relative quality and value of GW's product, however. Certainly, they have a right to sell their product as though it were the bee's knees. Confidence is good for you. At the very least, I think, you should acknowledge that there are a lot of options out there and GW is not categorically the top of the heap for everyone.

No, Games Workshop product is cheaper that equivalent in most cases: For example: Find a model airplane that has the same level of detail, quality of plastic, and is cheaper than GW. This does not exist. Oh, by the way, there's a game that you can use with your model airplane from GW...

[juliusb]

Key word there is company.

They are there to make as much profit as possible. Like every other company out there. Not sure why some seem to struggle with that concept.

As for accessibility, that is the point of this move. Internet sales do not grow the hobby. Bricks and mortar stores do, through intro gaming, running events and generally encouraging play.

I half agree with you about the word company and profit motive. But short term profit shouldn't hurt your long-term brand; that's bad for profits in the long run. Their obsession with secrecy is why I compared them to a defense contractor; it's just a little over the top for a toy company.

Another annoying example is their hard street dates and White Dwarf deliveries. Around here my FLGS gets new releases on Fridays but has to wait until Saturday to sell them. There are often excited customers there on Friday wanting to buy stuff and wouldn't it just be better to let fans have a one-day bonus? Wouldn't it be good for the brand to have excited customers posting on forums about how lucky they are because they got their toys a day early?

Wouldn't it help the brand to have enthusiastic resellers instead of annoyed shop owners who complain about GW to customers?

Wouldn't it be nice if, to guarantee subscribers got their magazine on time, GW sent it out a little early at the risk of some people seeing the "grand unveiling" a couple of days early?

The perceived "coolness" of a company effects profits long-term. I love this game and I worry that GW is hurting themselves too much to survive. I just wish GW would focus on fun and lighten up a little bit for their own good.

[ElectricPaladin]

No, Games Workshop product is cheaper that equivalent in most cases: For example: Find a model airplane that has the same level of detail, quality of plastic, and is cheaper than GW. This does not exist. Oh, by the way, there's a game that you can use with your model airplane from GW...

I don't compare Games Workshop to other models - I compare it to other minis games. I've heard GW's claim that they are primarily a minis company, but I don't buy it. It's not how they market themselves. It's not how they make money.

[Deadlift]

I don't compare Games Workshop to other models - I compare it to other minis games. I've heard GW's claim that they are primarily a minis company, but I don't buy it. It's not how they market themselves. It's not how they make money.

Maybe they mean in terms of sales ? I am sure model sales outstrip rule book sales by a massive margin, even if you include army books etc.

[Caitsidhe]

Key word there is company. They are there to make as much profit as possible. Like every other company out there. Not sure why some seem to struggle with that concept.

I think we are all clear on the concept. Some of us are making the argument that these are very short-sighted methods that have been tried by others and didn't work out to well. Nobody begrudges anyone wanting to make profit. There is a point at which, however, you are not serving the customers enough to where they will keep paying you.


As for accessibility, that is the point of this move. Internet sales do not grow the hobby. Bricks and mortar stores do, through intro gaming, running events and generally encouraging play.

This is patently FALSE. Sales grow the hobby. The more models, books, and so on which get sold, the more players which correspond to those models/books/etc. are out there. While I agree that brick and mortar stores are helpful in providing access, it is rather silly to say sales (which will be more diverse as prices are lower) isn't growing the hobby. The more expensive they make it by cutting back access points, sales, and so on the fewer people can get their foot in the door. In short "that dog won't hunt."

*To summarize, lower prices result in a lower barrier to get into the hobby and thus more people are likely to get in the door. Removing those options which allow lower prices by DEFAULT cannot grow the hobby more.

[Lockark]

Most game shops rely on GW to stay open as they tend to be the best sellers and have good margin for the sellers.


Most game shops I've knowen actully rely on Magic the Gathering. Well GW makes them a tidy profit, it's MTG that is their "bread and butter".

They try to diversafiy to not rely to much on one product, but the truth is if MTG was to die tomorrow, alot of gaming shops would go out of business.

Mini wargameing was the exception to this. Despite having a brick and mortor store, they relied more on their web sales of GW product.

They did try diversifying by trying and push games like Warmachine and started carrying MTG in their defence. But being a canadian online retailer they had a uphill battle ageist US based stores.

[Defenestratus]

Of the last couple LGS' that I've had the pleasure of being a customer of, all of them pay the rent with MTG.

GW sales are paltry compared to the revenue generated from MTG (for those stores at least)

[Mr Mystery]

I think we are all clear on the concept. Some of us are making the argument that these are very short-sighted methods that have been tried by others and didn't work out to well. Nobody begrudges anyone wanting to make profit. There is a point at which, however, you are not serving the customers enough to where they will keep paying you.



This is patently FALSE. Sales grow the hobby. The more models, books, and so on which get sold, the more players which correspond to those models/books/etc. are out there. While I agree that brick and mortar stores are helpful in providing access, it is rather silly to say sales (which will be more diverse as prices are lower) isn't growing the hobby. The more expensive they make it by cutting back access points, sales, and so on the fewer people can get their foot in the door. In short "that dog won't hunt."

*To summarize, lower prices result in a lower barrier to get into the hobby and thus more people are likely to get in the door. Removing those options which allow lower prices by DEFAULT cannot grow the hobby more.

It's not about price as such. GW make the same money from a third party web sale as they do a third party store sale. Difference being the chance of a web sale being made to an entirely new customer are far less than if its in store. Again this is a relatively straight forward issue.

FLGS cannot compete with the discounts offered by web traders. GW's future rests more on healthy FLGS than it does web stores. As such they have chosen to support the FLGS by taking steps to remove the issue of higher discounts.

FLGS can still set their own price, as they always have done. Nowhere in the document does it say 'you must sell at our price'. Discounts will still be available. GW will get the same cut they always did (it's my understanding tp sales are 60% of GW retail. I may well be wrong, as this is based on interwebular observation).

There seems a misconception out there that any discount, whether 1% or 20% or what have you somehow hits GW. It doesn't. They've been paid already, and that amount is the same regardless of what the item eventually sells for.

As for what provides the biggest profit is also a peculiar argument. Even if GW sales only account for say, 10% of your profits, losing even that much, with precisely no guarantee it'll be made up elsewhere, is enough to kill a small business. It can of course be survived, especially if there is a long term strategy to wean players onto different games and that, but then that's a lot of effort, when the alternative is simply to continue on your current margins, and make do.

[Caitsidhe]

Of the last couple LGS' that I've had the pleasure of being a customer of, all of them pay the rent with MTG.

GW sales are paltry compared to the revenue generated from MTG (for those stores at least)

Yup.

[NockerGeek]

Of the last couple LGS' that I've had the pleasure of being a customer of, all of them pay the rent with MTG.

GW sales are paltry compared to the revenue generated from MTG (for those stores at least)

Oh, definitely. MTG definitely pays the bills in our area as well.

And really, what I think this all comes down to, and what separates GW from all its competitors in the wargaming market, is that GW has retail spaces and is trying to push product at those retail spaces. Think about your FLGS - it'd be a total dick move to learn about and/or play a game at your local store but refuse to buy anything there because you can get it cheaper on Amazon. For GW, they see that on a massive scale, with every one of their retail outlets perceived as suffering from online sales that aren't directly theirs (and it's no coincidence that GW is all too happy to let you order online from within the store). This is something that Privateer Press, Wyrd Miniatures, Corvus Belli, et al, don't have to deal with; online vendors are their friends, because from their perspective a sale is a sale is a sale, and the groundwork is done at local independent retailers.

If you think about it that way, then the rest of GW's policies make some kind of sense. The increasing numbers of GW Hobby Centers opening up in the US, the price increases to counter the profits they feel they're losing from third-party online sales, the insistence on selling domestically, the policies against third-party online sites: all of these things make sense if GW is trying to protect their retail business, whether warranted or not.

What is the solution, though? Should GW just drop the retail arm of the business and depend on online sales (both first- and third-party) and independent stockists? Should GW continue to run retail locations, but treat them as basically loss leaders to get people into the hobby? Should they keep doing what they're doing?

[daboarder]

This is just an alien idea to me. You are buying the same bits of plastic as we are over here. It has no more value in Australia than it does here but they think YOU should pay more. In America we call this discrimination. It wouldn't be legal here because it is clearly based on on where you come from. They might as well be saying, "Screw those Australian guys. They make too much money."


You should be worried. Everything Games Workshop has been doing as well as an EDUCATED look at their quarterly reports indicates a company that is in trouble. They have offset losses by closing stores to try and make themselves look in the black. They invested big in Tolkien brand (and that wasn't cheap I assure you) and have yet to see a real return. They are engaged in more and more legal debacles and bad press. All of these things are a desperate kind of flailing around to secure the old dynasty, an unwillingness to accept the market has changed and they must change with it.

Thank you so much for both those statements.

The only good thing about the second one however is that the IP has proved to valuable to be allowed to let slip into ambiguity, someone will buy it when GW goes bust.

[Tynskel]

I don't compare Games Workshop to other models - I compare it to other minis games. I've heard GW's claim that they are primarily a minis company, but I don't buy it. It's not how they market themselves. It's not how they make money.

Even then, GW game is better. Sure their rules aren't necessarily as 'tight' as something like privateer press. But, who wants to play with someone that plays Warma-hordes. Every time I bust my Cryx out, I am dealing with a rules nutcase. Every time I bust out my bugs or marines, I am dealing nuclear strikes, heroes, or single lone guardsman that saves the day. Much better atmosphere in GW's design.

Again, the models are better. That's a huge boon, especially considering most people out there just build n' paint.

[TheBitzBarn]

"It's not about price as such. GW make the same money from a third party web sale as they do a third party store sale. Difference being the chance of a web sale being made to an entirely new customer are far less than if its in store. Again this is a relatively straight forward issue." - Mr Mystery

I have to take issue with what you said the high prices and in some areas LACK of stores drive people to the web. Why is Amazon so big they sell same books as Barnes and Nobles? People care about price points. Stores are GREAT but they have to be Great and that is RARE. They also have to be around you I sell to a group in Montana and they have no store in 100s of miles. So should they be deprived product and if it was not for me they would Buy MUCH less Product. This boils down to they want to CONTROL all web sales they have 1800+ product that are ATO or Direct as they use to call it and Stores cannot get this stuff. Why? Cause they want the sales directly via web. I hate this policy as much as the next guy.

Quote Originally Posted by Caitsidhe View Post
This is just an alien idea to me. You are buying the same bits of plastic as we are over here. It has no more value in Australia than it does here but they think YOU should pay more. In America we call this discrimination. It wouldn't be legal here because it is clearly based on on where you come from. They might as well be saying, "Screw those Australian guys. They make too much money."

I am sure you have heard of the Cost of doing business. All Product has to be shipped form Memphis Tennessee or Nottingham England. there are only 22 million of you so makes NO sense to build a Plant. Factor in shipping cost, Factor in CRAZY import Tariffs (yes they exist I get customers telling about the weekly), Factor in Tax Structure of Australia, Factor in CRAZY wage rules, Factor in High Rents (cause only like 8% of the Land is livable) and you have all the reason this items cost more in your country. Minimum Wage is over 14.00 dollars and Hour that is insane. that right there cause the overhead to import, staff and sell products by 100% compared to US.

I am not try to start an argument just wanted to respond PLEASE do not think this is a personal attack on either of you. You both sound passionate and intellegent .

[daboarder]

Quote Originally Posted by Caitsidhe View Post
This is just an alien idea to me. You are buying the same bits of plastic as we are over here. It has no more value in Australia than it does here but they think YOU should pay more. In America we call this discrimination. It wouldn't be legal here because it is clearly based on on where you come from. They might as well be saying, "Screw those Australian guys. They make too much money."

I am sure you have heard of the Cost of doing business. All Product has to be shipped form Memphis Tennessee or Nottingham England. there are only 22 million of you so makes NO sense to build a Plant. Factor in shipping cost, Factor in CRAZY import Tariffs (yes they exist I get customers telling about the weekly), Factor in Tax Structure of Australia, Factor in CRAZY wage rules, Factor in High Rents (cause only like 8% of the Land is livable) and you have all the reason this items cost more in your country. Minimum Wage is over 14.00 dollars and Hour that is insane. that right there cause the overhead to import, staff and sell products by 100% compared to US.

I am not try to start an argument just wanted to respond PLEASE do not think this is a personal attack on either of you. You both sound passionate and intellegent .

Pssh the cost argument is and always has been a BS excuse, along with the higher wage crap (just because other countries have horrible work standards) I for one am glad that price gougers are being run through the ringer today by a commission, if things go the way they should companies should be regulated into offering international prices to aussie customers or get the hell out of our country!

Latest quote from Microsoft: "we charge Australians more because we can...." pretty much says it all.

Until they realise the we wont stand for heavy handed embargo attempts people will pirate more and more, unless GW engender good will with the community 3D printers mean their days are numbered, then again perhaps this is an attempt to maximise profits before the inevitable.

for those willing to read into the real cost of running large business in Australia Apple, Microsoft, Adobe and other technology giants have been so far unable to provide financial justification to a government inquiry, for the "Australia tax" which says it all really, if the cost of business was an issue they'd be more than happy to show that, the fact that they haven't puts the lie to that argument.

[Wolfshade]

As for accessibility, that is the point of this move. Internet sales do not grow the hobby. Bricks and mortar stores do, through intro gaming, running events and generally encouraging play
This is patently FALSE. Sales grow the hobby. The more models, books, and so on which get sold, the more players which correspond to those models/books/etc. are out there. While I agree that brick and mortar stores are helpful in providing access, it is rather silly to say sales (which will be more diverse as prices are lower) isn't growing the hobby. The more expensive they make it by cutting back access points, sales, and so on the fewer people can get their foot in the door. In short "that dog won't hunt."
So if I was the only person buying things, but buying the equivalent of the world sales you would say that that was ok because there are more sales and therefore the hobby is growing?
The hobby isn't the revenue, it isn't the number of kits sold, it is the number of people playing it.

The corrolation between the size of the hobby and the number of sales is not so straight forward. We do not know if 10 dark vengance sets being sold relates to 10 new players (20 new players as they have gone in halfs with their friends) or 1 pre-existing player who thinks the kit is exceptional value.


*To summarize, lower prices result in a lower barrier to get into the hobby and thus more people are likely to get in the door. Removing those options which allow lower prices by DEFAULT cannot grow the hobby more.

The BoLS front page article to which I linked showed that lower prices does not necessarily mean more sales or more profit.

Indeed as has been explicity said a lot of people have a budget for the hobby and will spend that on what they like but that total cash spent is not going to change because of price. By reducing the cost that person buys more, but the overall profit is going to be less, since the individual margin per kit is lower.

As regard to the higher prices in parts of the world we have had threads from way back in 2010 bemoaning the costs and yet people continue to pay and play.

[Caitsidhe]

I am not try to start an argument just wanted to respond PLEASE do not think this is a personal attack on either of you. You both sound passionate and intellegent .

I don't take offense. You are making arguments, not personal attacks. I respect that. I can even accept increases based entirely on shipping (although that should only show up in shipping) costs, taxes and tariffs. I don't accept (and find repugnant) the notion that because they have a higher minimum wage, they should be charged more. I am one of those people who won't buy a car if I walk on to the lot and there are no prices already on the vehicles. The cost should not vary based on what they think I can pay. I only buy from locations that charge the same for everyone. The value of an item has to be static to be fair. The problem with the arguments you are making is that they don't quite hold up. If (and when) I buy something for a friend and ship it to Australia, I encounter the same shipping costs and so on that you talk about but they don't even come CLOSE to the increase Games Workshop is applying. In short, they are gouging the Australians just because they can. :D

[gcsmith]

I don't take offense. You are making arguments, not personal attacks. I respect that. I can even accept increases based entirely on shipping (although that should only show up in shipping) costs, taxes and tariffs. I don't accept (and find repugnant) the notion that because they have a higher minimum wage, they should be charged more. I am one of those people who won't buy a car if I walk on to the lot and there are no prices already on the vehicles. The cost should not vary based on what they think I can pay. I only buy from locations that charge the same for everyone. The value of an item has to be static to be fair. The problem with the arguments you are making is that they don't quite hold up. If (and when) I buy something for a friend and ship it to Australia, I encounter the same shipping costs and so on that you talk about but they don't even come CLOSE to the increase Games Workshop is applying. In short, they are gouging the Australians just because they can. :D

Actually, you did state that you want static prices for everyone right? Well the stores have to have higher prices since the price of the product needs to earn money to pay the staff, if staff have higher minimum wage, you need to pay more. Now you could say online could be cheaper, but you also said static price, and since stores need to charge so much, so should online.

[Mr Mystery]

Quite so. I myself this month bought a new Daemon army for 40k, and spent in the region of £400 to do so.

Some of the prices surprised me, but then this is a hobby. Along with drinking and smoking, and my new PS3 and 3D bluray collection, it's one of a handful of indulgences. Each of those things I derive pleasure from. I spend more time on my models than any other, indeed the time spent on it (including reading codecies, rules and novels, often on the cludgy) is eclipsed only by time spent at work, and sleeping. So in my case, the price becomes singularly unimportant compared to the value it offers me. Good example? I paid £40 for God of War Ascension this month, as mainly because I'm on holiday, completed it in a couple of afternoon gaming session. Now whilst I don't begrudge it's price, I've got less out that purchase than the equivalent in models,. I'm not finished assembling the army, yet to paint wit. And already I've spent around 20 hours building. And that army isn't going anywhere. I'll likely play it as my main force for around a year. And every minute spent on it wrings further value from the initial investment.

Now not everyone is going to match my experience, which is why I don't declare it to be universally good value.

But start up costs? $99.00 for Dark Vengeance? That's pretty good in my book! And I would say far from being a barrier. Other games have lower costs its true. Warmahordes did (does? Not my cup of tea so haven't paid much attention) those starter boxes with a couple of Warhacks and a Warcaster. I got the Khador one, and then the Menoth one. And I found that due to the mechanics just using those became monotonous. YMMV of course. But I know which I consider the better introduction to war gaming!

[Wolfshade]

Not really wanting to get into a discussion about the price of the unit but...

The other issue is with pricing is how do you define it.

If you convert a single cost to local currency then this limits the market to only similiar economies, most companies do not do this.
For instance a pint of beer in some parts of the UK is £3.50, now if we convert that into say South African Rand that about 60 rand, which is more than a days work, ABMiller believes that the prices should be equivalent to 30 minutes work.

Most commonly you base it on some type of comparitor like minimum wage or average salary and then work it out as a fraction of that.

(http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29346-Price-Comparisons)

[Mr Mystery]

Now my brain hurts!

[Herzlos]

FLGS cannot compete with the discounts offered by web traders. GW's future rests more on healthy FLGS than it does web stores. As such they have chosen to support the FLGS by taking steps to remove the issue of higher discounts.

No they haven't. If they wanted to do something about deep discounting they'd have had the contract mention a restriction of no more than 20% discount, or only allow stores with a retail presence to sell online.

But they haven't; No-one can sell online, order in more than $500/month from the ever-expanding special order section, or split boxes. This means that FLGS's have their utility to customers reduced (less ordering capacity), their incomes throttled (less ordering capacity, no online or bit sales).

GW doesn't want online discounters because customers to their rather than their own store, but they also don't want customers going to LGSs (otherwise they wouldn't make it so hard for them to order stuff, and have huge ranges which they just can't get). They tolerate LGS's for now because they need them for market coverage in the US, but I don't doubt for a second they'd stop selling via any 3rd parties the moment they thought they could get away with it.

Because obviously anyone who can't buy from an LGS or online retailer will buy from GW direct. They won't buy into other systems or anything :p

[Mr Mystery]

No retailer should be splitting boxes, ever. See early explanations.

You cannot legally prevent discounts of any level.

And yep. Those wanting to buy 40k, Fantasy, Hobbit, WotR, Epic, BFG, etc who can't get it from a FLG will go to GW direct. Because you know, that's where you get 40k, Fantasy, Hobbit, WotR, Epic, BFG etc when you can't get it locally??

[Emerald Rose Widow]

The issue is GW seems to be acting like someone running a monopoly would, and in many ways they are kind of like one. But to be more honest, from an economic standpoint they are closer to Monopolistic Competition. The difference being they arent the only miniature hobby seller on the planet, but their product is differentiated. The problem is because of that there is competition, and the other systems do have good models, good rules, and fun games. Those other companies are investing more and more in their miniatures, and from everything I can see GW will only stay the leader in this for so much longer before Wyrd, and Privateer both catch up in model quality.

So there will come a point when they need to start acting like they have competitors, and not like they have explicit control on the market. The thing is, they aren't acting like that, they are doing what effectively amounts to throttling their sales base. Just because they limit online sales to themselves, doesn't mean people wont buy from third party when they can, or get older miniatures and do counts as armies. Then there is always the distinct possibility that these people will just move on to other systems that do not cost as much, but have more static miniatures. This could also be shown by the fact that all of these other companies are growing.

I think GW is really hurting themselves from being able to compete in the long run, just for the sake of making their quarterly report look good.

[Wolfshade]

The question is how do Wyrd (of whom I have not heard) and Privateer plan to expand?

If they wish to consume the GW market, then that is fine, it is easy(ier) to convert a wargamer from one system to another (c.f. how players of one pc/console game can be attracted to a similiar game). The question is how do they expand once they have converted the wargaming community? How do they grow?

In all my local games shops I have not come across another product until last month and I discovered Flames of War, not in a games store, but in a model store (think Hornby Railway/Scalextric etc.).

My experiance is that GW do the hard yards getting people into gaming and then these other systems then leech off that effort. In my gaming group we have all either been direct converts from the local GW store, or by friend who had been directly caught. I think there is one exception who got into it via the old GW boardgames.

[Caitsidhe]

Game Workshop is deluded. What they want, eventually, is for their products to be sold ONLY at Games Workshops stores and/or online direct from Games Workshop. They don't like other LGS at all. They tolerate them because they had to do so, lacking the distribution network themselves. Their goal, which is crystal clear is to reach a point where they cut off the other LGS too. Make no mistake on this point.

1. Attempt to clamp down on all online sales but their own under guise of helping LGS.
2. Alter ordering and supplies to LGS to ensure local Games Workshop store always has better selection and start weaning process.
3. If clamp down is successful and Games Workshop stores in place, offer sales discounts that LGS are not allowed to use.
4. Reroute all product through Games Workshop stores.

They have the right to attempt all these things. It is deluded and stupid, but they are completely within their rights. The problem is that, as others have pointed out, they now have a growing, reliable base of competition. What is more, they have completely misjudged (no surprise there) the psychology and demands of the American branch of their hobby. While a small minority of the players can be rerouted to what amounts to a specialty boutique store, most of them will simply move on to greener pastures. American gamers are notoriously fickle. Let's assume for a moment that Games Workshop manages all the phases above (which I consider unlikely). They might as well write off their American market altogether.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

The question is how do Wyrd (of whom I have not heard) and Privateer plan to expand?

If they wish to consume the GW market, then that is fine, it is easy(ier) to convert a wargamer from one system to another (c.f. how players of one pc/console game can be attracted to a similiar game). The question is how do they expand once they have converted the wargaming community? How do they grow?

In all my local games shops I have not come across another product until last month and I discovered Flames of War, not in a games store, but in a model store (think Hornby Railway/Scalextric etc.).

My experiance is that GW do the hard yards getting people into gaming and then these other systems then leech off that effort. In my gaming group we have all either been direct converts from the local GW store, or by friend who had been directly caught. I think there is one exception who got into it via the old GW boardgames.

Wyrd games' main game is Malifaux, which has been growing in popularity this last month, especially with groups like Wargames Consortium pushing the game. Privateer is already expanding and putting out more and more, and better miniatures. More players are picking the games up because they run well and are fun. By no means am I saying that GW will die, per se, but there will be a point where they no longer have the primary market share and we are starting to see that little by little. I know in my area alone privateer has exploded and we have gamers in the area who come to our local game store on wednesdays to play as well as teach new people of which there are plenty.

While GW may do the work getting people into the games, that doesn't change the fact that they are the ones that are pushing the people to those other games. Games who are far cheaper, which during an economic downturn is a major mitigating factor. You also need less physical space for games like malifaux and warmahordes, these are all contributing factors in people's decisions. I personally will still be playing 40k of course because I do love the game, but I will be curbing my purchases in the future to other systems to try new things, and just keep using the army I already play. Because of this, my FLGS will still be getting moneys, but GW wont get it very often.

[Defenestratus]

No retailer should be splitting boxes, ever. See early explanations.

This thinking just befuddles me and will likely lead to objects being defenestrated.

The MARKET WANTS BITS. The market WILL provide what consumers WANT whether its "legal" or not.

Thus the reason that black markets exist, and will exist in the future despite what GW tries to do.

There is nothing GW can do short of just not selling their product that will prevent consumers from getting what they want.

[Caitsidhe]

This thinking just befuddles me and will likely lead to objects being defenestrated.

The MARKET WANTS BITS. The market WILL provide what consumers WANT whether its "legal" or not.


Thus the reason that black markets exist, and will exist in the future despite what GW tries to do.

I've stated this myself, many times. Once a market exists, it is virtually impossible to eliminate it. Attempts to clamp down on such a market only feeds the problem. It is basic economics.



There is nothing GW can do short of just not selling their product that will prevent consumers from getting what they want.

Exactly. There is another option, the one that Games Workshop seems unwilling to consider. They could simply sell the product themselves, going bulk and lowering prices. Utilizing brand name, existing distribution, and an existing industrial capacity to mass produce the could pound their competition into the ground. They refuse to do this because they continue to think the world has not moved on since they were the only big fish in the pond.

[Herzlos]

And yep. Those wanting to buy 40k, Fantasy, Hobbit, WotR, Epic, BFG, etc who can't get it from a FLG will go to GW direct. Because you know, that's where you get 40k, Fantasy, Hobbit, WotR, Epic, BFG etc when you can't get it locally??

Those who'll play it at any price will. But those who find it too expensive without the discount will just not bother, and are more likely to take advantage of the discounts available for other games systems, or for proxies. There are also those who'll change system out of principle. None of these lost customers are likely to come back.

If you're playing Fantasy Dwarves for instance, and can only buy GW stuff from them direct, or you could get Mantic or Avatars Of War Dwarves at a 20% discount from their already lower RRP, whilst supporting your local store, are you always going to go to GW?

They are already facing serious competition from many companies who are producing similar figures of at least the same quality for less, which makes the decision to restrict how customers can get the stuff and how LGS's can compete is only likely to hurt them in the long run because they don't have a monopoly in the wargaming space now.

[Herzlos]

No, Games Workshop product is cheaper that equivalent in most cases: For example: Find a model airplane that has the same level of detail, quality of plastic, and is cheaper than GW. This does not exist. Oh, by the way, there's a game that you can use with your model airplane from GW...

Almost every airplane made by Airfix or Tamiya is more detailed and cheaper* than a GW kit of an equivalent size... Some people don't like the Airfix plastic though.

*Particularly somewhere like Australia.

[Herzlos]

No retailer should be splitting boxes, ever. See early explanations.

I've had a scan through the thread and see no real explanation as to why boxes should never be split. Brand dilution? That's nonsense, no-one buying partial GW kits it going to be worried if it's from GW or not because (1) if they are buying bits they already know what they are looking for and (2) Every sprue has GW stamped on it, and every book is marked.

The only reason I can see* for banning box-splitting is the belief that customers will buy the whole box if there is no other way to get the parts. Some of them may, but many of them won't. Would you buy another infantry squad purely for an extra flamer? Or another Dark Vengeance set purely for the Cultists or Hellbrute?

*And even then I don't agree with it.

[Deadlift]

This thinking just befuddles me and will likely lead to objects being defenestrated.

The MARKET WANTS BITS. The market WILL provide what consumers WANT whether its "legal" or not.

Thus the reason that black markets exist, and will exist in the future despite what GW tries to do.

There is nothing GW can do short of just not selling their product that will prevent consumers from getting what they want.

You could argue, if the market wants bits, then maybe GW should go back to supplying bits. Maybe this as is rumoured is a precusor to this ?

me sometimes I make my own

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub70AU5RfmI

[Deadlift]

double post, sorry

[Wolfshade]

The problem GW has in entering the bitz market, at the moment they are moving towards getting everything on a sprue so they would either have to specially isolate items and make them into individual sprues or have someone whose job it is to clip items from sprues.
Both options are going to be quite expensive and the amount of space that would be required to store the items individually would be incredible.

Back when the items were spun cast metal items, all seperate it wasn't too hard for GW to do this and indeed they did, you could by "nemis force weapon #3", or what have you.

If I had to choose between either having all the options on sprue or having to buy metal (or presumably now finecast) "upgrades" I would choose the sprue option. Though I don't necessarily think that this is an either or option.

[Denzark]

I think the problem with GWs experience in the US is more down to how it was implemented. If they had done as they have in the UK, which is to have 2 or 3 stores in each city and one or two in each large town, it would have worked better. They have to compete against a lot of others in the UK, but they appear close to the town centres and bus stops, school routes.

I think was is really getting the US goat is that a UK company is the leading player in this field, and is telling US companies how it will do business, something that that is often on the other foot.

However unfair people think this is, one only has to look at US companies to see that this is not just GW, but how a lot of the bigger players act, particularly those from the US.

I think this is a lot of the problem in terms of bad publicity - a UK company using the worst corporate lessons, across the pond - corporate lessons learnt in the style of US big business...


GW needs to stop acting like a defense contractor and more like a games company. They need to focus a little less on profits and controlling everything and more on making a fun, ACCESSIBLE GAME.

Er - wrong. Firstly I don't think you need to bring in Defence Contractor- the allusion here is that because their profits are based on killing people they are immoral and GW are therefore the same. Next, GW don't think they are a games company - all their corporate literature says their main thing is making model soldiers. A subtle difference. Lastly, UK companies in law are required to act on behalf of their shareholders, so keeping the company profitable is the very first thing they should think of. Besides most people on here claim that their behaviour is not eventually profitable.


I would like to see a poll on here to see if GWs recent decision in regards to sales will effect personal brand loyalty.

I know there are many forum contributors that are far more wordy than me and could put an interesting poll together ;)

I don't have any loyalty to the GW brand - but to 40K? Are they separable or not? If the IP went elsewhere I would probably follow. I care nothing for how GW runs itself as long as i can access 40K. After all it is a luxury item, its not like kraft foods are gouging people who need their output.


The issue is GW seems to be acting like someone running a monopoly would, and in many ways they are kind of like one. But to be more honest, from an economic standpoint they are closer to Monopolistic Competition. The difference being they arent the only miniature hobby seller on the planet, but their product is differentiated. The problem is because of that there is competition, and the other systems do have good models, good rules, and fun games. Those other companies are investing more and more in their miniatures, and from everything I can see GW will only stay the leader in this for so much longer before Wyrd, and Privateer both catch up in model quality.

So there will come a point when they need to start acting like they have competitors, and not like they have explicit control on the market. The thing is, they aren't acting like that, they are doing what effectively amounts to throttling their sales base. Just because they limit online sales to themselves, doesn't mean people wont buy from third party when they can, or get older miniatures and do counts as armies. Then there is always the distinct possibility that these people will just move on to other systems that do not cost as much, but have more static miniatures. This could also be shown by the fact that all of these other companies are growing.

I think GW is really hurting themselves from being able to compete in the long run, just for the sake of making their quarterly report look good.

You can't apply monopoly arguments to GW. Because they don't try and control the entire wargames market - actually it would often appear they don't give a toss about the wider wargames market. Their pricing policy only affects their products, not other company's so how the hell do they monopolise their own stuff? They are entitled to sell it just themselves! Thats not a monopoly - Aston Martin is not a monopoly because they only sell (new product )from Aston Martin dealerships. That being the case GW is entitled to create conditions to which its trading partners/resellers/independents have to adhere.

[Dyrnwyn]

Er - wrong. Firstly I don't think you need to bring in Defence Contractor- the allusion here is that because their profits are based on killing people they are immoral and GW are therefore the same. Next, GW don't think they are a games company - all their corporate literature says their main thing is making model soldiers. A subtle difference. Lastly, UK companies in law are required to act on behalf of their shareholders, so keeping the company profitable is the very first thing they should think of. Besides most people on here claim that their behaviour is not eventually profitable.
Now you are just being disingenuous. The 'defense contractor' allusion could be read a number of ways but implying it's because GW and defense contractors are immoral is straight out of crazytown. I read that as GW treats its brand like it's importance is on the level of national security. It could also be read as GW believes each of it's products are worth several million, that it's practices need to be shrouded in secrecy, or that they are producing low-bid items and selling them at marked up prices. Perhaps even some combination of any or all of them can reasonably be read in that comparison. 'Defense contractors are immoral' isn't even a logical assumption to start with.

Companies are required to act on behalf of their shareholders, but that includes the health of the company. Companies are not obliged by law to make decisions that would increase profit in the short term while being detrimental in the long term. So long as a company can justify it's practices, it's fine on that front, which is why GW hasn't been taken to task - their actions have increased profits for the short term, but put the long term health of the company at risk.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

You can't apply monopoly arguments to GW. Because they don't try and control the entire wargames market - actually it would often appear they don't give a toss about the wider wargames market. Their pricing policy only affects their products, not other company's so how the hell do they monopolise their own stuff? They are entitled to sell it just themselves! Thats not a monopoly - Aston Martin is not a monopoly because they only sell (new product )from Aston Martin dealerships. That being the case GW is entitled to create conditions to which its trading partners/resellers/independents have to adhere.

Note that I said they are more like Monopolistic Competition, which from an economic standpoint is very very different from monopolies. I said in many ways they are ACTING like someone who holds a monopoly. They raise their prices more and more despite using cheaper methods, and lessen their production and make higher profits at a higher price. This is something someone with true competitors cannot do because then their competitors outprice them, if the product is standardized (ie little difference between the products between firms). In this case while they all make miniatures for various games, the IP and game systems make them differentiated. So while GW has many competitors its for a different game system and a different IP, despite the fact that they are similar they are differentiated by system and brand.

So a market that has many firms selling differentiated products, by definition, is Monopolistic Competition. (grant you broad stroke here but it covers it) The problem is they aren't acting like a company that knows its in Monopolistic Competition, they are acting like a company that thinks it has a monopoly. They are raising prices, lowering cost, and soaking up all the consumer surplus that exists by how it is distributing its pricing. This is how Monopolies act, but because they actually do have competitors, (whether they think Wyrd, Privateer, etc are their competitors or not) they are limiting their distribution and opening up for those competitors to grow.

As I said, shooting themselves in the foot.