Which current chapter will fall to chaos first?

[MrBo]

The title explains it all, which current space marine chapter is the most likely in your opinion to submit to chaos first?

I'll say the ultramarines, they will likely fall to slaanesh or tzeentch, because of their pride, and they won't even realize it until it's too late.
oh and because my friend plays em' ;)


Thoughts?

[Deadlift]

Not sure if any really, but if I had to say then my money would either be the Relictors who happily collect and use chaos weaponry or maybe either 2 of the Blood Angels Successors Knights of Blood or Flesh Tearers to Khorne, that's if either chapter survives that long.

I don't think any of the remaining founding chapters / then legions would fall to be honest, with what went down in the heresy I think they have too much unfinished business to fall to the dark side erm I meant Chaos.

[ElectricPaladin]

Not sure if any really, but if I had to say then my money would either be the Relictors who happily collect and use chaos weaponry or maybe either 2 of the Blood Angels Successors Knights of Blood or Flesh Tearers to Khorne, that's if either chapter survives that long.

Gabriel Seth is pretty hell-bent on the Flesh Tearers going down in history as a loyal chapter. I bet that when the survivors finally die out, a few of the stragglers will find their way into a Chaos warband or two.

Even though I love the Blood Angels, myself, I'd say the Blood Angels. They clearly have a bit of an anger management (*cough* Khorne *cough) problem, and their chief librarian is gradually transcending the flesh and may be on the route to becoming a daemon prince.

BUT! Chaos has made some serious efforts to corrupt and seduce the Blood Angels, and none of it has ever worked. So, if the Blood Angels were going to fall, they probably would have fallen already. So in the end, I don't think the Blood Angels are going to become Chaos's next warband.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Knights of the Blood take the plunge. They're clearly on the edge. I don't think it would be an easy fall. Probably they'd tear themselves apart in internecine warfare, the loyalists versus their traitor brothers, with the survivors either being quietly folded into the Blood Angels or appearing as mercenary Khornate berserkers in scattered warbands.

The idea of fallen Ultramarines appeals, but I just don't see it. They have too close a connection to the humans in their care. I just don't see them taking off into space with Ultramar a burning husk behind them. They love those worlds too much. I could see their love of Ultramar leading them to succeed even further from the Imperium, but I just don't see them betraying their human subjects.

[YorkNecromancer]

Space Wolves.

Because GW loves to troll its fans.

On a more serious note? None of them. They're inherently less interesting as card-carrying villains; their ambiguously evil thing is far better.

[Deadlift]

I suppose the other side of the coin is could a renegade chapter return to the fold ? See the light so to speak. I doubt the Inquisition or Grey Knights would allow it and I can't recall it being written in a novel. Of course there are the Soul Drinkers who remain loyal to the imperium despite being physically corrupted by chaos.

[ElectricPaladin]

I suppose the other side of the coin is could a renegade chapter return to the fold ? See the light so to speak. I doubt the Inquisition or Grey Knights would allow it and I can't recall it being written in a novel. Of course there are the Soul Drinkers who remain loyal to the imperium despite being physically corrupted by chaos.

I would find this plot EXTREMELY interesting. I doubt GW will ever go with it, but wouldn't that be something? A band of Chaos marines seeking to throw off the chains of Chaos and find a place among the loyalists? That would be neat.

Speaking again of the Knights of the Blood - who aren't quite fallen - I could see an interesting story about a band of Knights of the Blood who want to re-enter the Imperial fold and, in the process, discover that they really are tainted by Khorne and have to reject the taint to find redemption. I could also see members of the Death Guard - who didn't really want to fall, but were sold by the marine who would become Typhus - and maybe some of the remaining Thousand Sons - who likewise never wanted to fall - trying to redeem themselves.

[Deadlift]

Maybe even a band of Word Bearers who rediscover their faith in the Emperor ? I have always wondered about the Alpha Legion too, to me I always read their story as being loyal to emperor but siding with Horus to get the inside track on his eventual plans, their pretence being so deep that in this process they don't inform any of the loyalists that they are in fact a double agent legion. It's only when they become so embroiled in Horus's plans that they are no longer the "undercover legion" and eventually become truly renegade.

The thing with The Knights of the Blood is when the poo really hits the fan for the Blood Angels they get stuck in and help. But always remain apart, could this be to hide something ? After all Blood for the Blood god, doesn't matter where it comes from.

[ElectricPaladin]

The thing with The Knights of the Blood is when the poo really hits the fan for the Blood Angels they get stuck in and help. But always remain apart, could this be to hide something ? After all Blood for the Blood god, doesn't matter where it comes from.

I mean, hey, blood for the blood god doesn't mean that you can't be fond of your cousins, even if they are misguided fools. If they live long enough, maybe they'll get smart and join up!

[lobster-overlord]

Then entire chapter of Blood Angels goes Rage at once during a large battle and succumbs to the whispers of Chaos, and the whole chapter becomes a legion of Khorne Berserkers.

Sounds like a fun modelling theme.

[MrBo]

I would find this plot EXTREMELY interesting. I doubt GW will ever go with it, but wouldn't that be something? A band of Chaos marines seeking to throw off the chains of Chaos and find a place among the loyalists? That would be neat.

Speaking again of the Knights of the Blood - who aren't quite fallen - I could see an interesting story about a band of Knights of the Blood who want to re-enter the Imperial fold and, in the process, discover that they really are tainted by Khorne and have to reject the taint to find redemption. I could also see members of the Death Guard - who didn't really want to fall, but were sold by the marine who would become Typhus - and maybe some of the remaining Thousand Sons - who likewise never wanted to fall - trying to redeem themselves.

In the fan fiction section of the warseer forums is a 500 page book called "The rise of the tau" totally worth the read , and deals with fallens chapters coming back in the final battle.

[DWest]

I would find this plot EXTREMELY interesting. I doubt GW will ever go with it, but wouldn't that be something? A band of Chaos marines seeking to throw off the chains of Chaos and find a place among the loyalists? That would be neat.
It's not a whole band, but in the Deathwatch RPG, the background of the specialist Black Shields (Marines who forsake their past and become wholly a member of the Deathwatch) strongly implies some Chaos Marines have chosen this path to return to the fold.

Also in the category of "we'll never get a black-n-white answer, but it brings up a neat possibility", with the implications in the HH novels that the Ultramarines absorbed the survivors of the 2nd and 11th Legions, I wonder what would happen if a group of Ultras discovered that not only were they not created from Guilliman's gene-seed, but that their gene-seed came from a Primarch who had done something so bad as to get his likeness scrubbed out where even Horus still stands?

[ElectricPaladin]

Also in the category of "we'll never get a black-n-white answer, but it brings up a neat possibility", with the implications in the HH novels that the Ultramarines absorbed the survivors of the 2nd and 11th Legions, I wonder what would happen if a group of Ultras discovered that not only were they not created from Guilliman's gene-seed, but that their gene-seed came from a Primarch who had done something so bad as to get his likeness scrubbed out where even Horus still stands?

I recall reading somewhere that marines who are adopted into other chapters are usually (ie. not when they are tithed as part of an effort to revive the receiving chapter, but when they are taken in as a charity) their geneseed is not harvested. So the II and XI Legions would have died out, even though their survivors were given refuge by the Ultramarines.

That said, it's still a neat idea. And there are reasons why that geneseed might have been preserved, like a special order from the Inquisition or the Magos Biologis.

[jgebi]

I think it would be most likely for an inquisitor to have a pet chaos marine but still serve the golden throne. Also you are talking a massive lore shift here so the only chapters that could come back would be alpha legion and word bearers and maybe some night lords as they don't really like chaos to start with.

I know a new faction of renegade renegades hated by everyone and serving them selves to free them selves from the grip of chaos and be free once and for all

[Saint_Anger]

I say it’s the Space Wolves. Here is my theory. Canis Helix is surely some kind of mutation by chaos into Russ’s gene-seed during his infant. Once Abaddon can rampage enough to tear open the Eye of Terror, the power of the Warp will turn all of Space Wolves into Wulfens at least. Then the chapter will fall.

[Psychosplodge]

I say it’s the Space Wolves. Here is my theory. Canis Helix is surely some kind of mutation by chaos into Russ’s gene-seed during his infant. Once Abaddon can rampage enough to tear open the Eye of Terror, the power of the Warp will turn all of Space Wolves into Wulfens at least. Then the chapter will fall.

There's contradictory fluff regarding the SW, I'm pretty sure I've seen something saying that no space wolf has ever fallen to chaos, but then again I'm sure I've seen chaotic space wolves elsewhere in the Extended background universe, so who knows?

And then there's the single ill fated successor chapter...

[Denzark]

Bear in mind RENEGADE as opposed to Chaos Marines, have returned - Lamenters anybody? But with Chaos taint, it is hard to see a desire to return. If they had fully gone, ie mutations and daemonic possession, to have kicked the latter, would make them Illuminati - retro fluff winners. Whether or not the Imperium would let them return to the fold, I doubt. But a radical inquisitor could make use of a chapter or even a squad of redeemed marines.

In terms of turning, I think it more likely that successor chapters and later foundings turn - although having mutated geneseed is problematic. I think that for BA/SW, the most likely scenario would be their refusal to submit to Inquisitorial scrutiny making them outlaws, and then turning through a matter of necessity, this unlikely scenario would need a mad puritan to hold more sway with the High Lords of Terra who would pragmatically say 'They may be Space Vampire or Werewolves, but at least they're OUR Space Vampires and Werewolves.

[Wolfshade]

I imagine someone like the relictors you know they are half in anyway...

[bfmusashi]

Space Wolves have fallen to Chaos in the past, there's a warband mentioned (Skyrar's Dark Wolves) in the previous Chaos Space Marine codex and Codex: Space Wolves says traitor members are lumped into the 13th company as symbolically lost.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Space Wolves, while having some fallen, would not fall as a chapter. While issues with the Canis Helix and their general tactics might make it seem to the rest of the imperium that they are traitors, or are on the road to it. The Space Wolves will forever be loyal to the Imperium/ Emperor. when the Strike Cruiser fell, it was because of the Blood Claws (their initiates) that overthrew the rest of the crew. Space wolves have a very built in, "it's better to die fighting" mentality. As for the 13th company, they are the company that is in the Eye of Terror fighting chaos, the reason the old Wolfen models and other figures from the pictures look a bit chaos'ish is that they're stuck in the eye with no reinforcements or suppiles, so they loot chaos gear to fix/ repair their stuff.

[Pater Sin]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Emperors children had the most stable geneseed of all the original legions, so it seems resonably feasable to me that some could be brought back into the Imperial fold. It also make sense that some ultramarines woud turn to chaos because they are all arrogant ****s who are totally convinced they are the the greates chapter of SM.

[lobo60]

Honestly I think the blood ravens could fall. They are very mysterious and have lost many brothers to chaos as it is. I would also say some..not all (maybe a crusade fleet or something) of black templars could fall. I mean they a zealous beyond reason and will charge in furiously at the enemy. Even though they are more loyal than most, I believe a company could be tricked into becoming a chaos follower.

[gcsmith]

Honestly I think the blood ravens could fall. They are very mysterious and have lost many brothers to chaos as it is. I would also say some..not all (maybe a crusade fleet or something) of black templars could fall. I mean they a zealous beyond reason and will charge in furiously at the enemy. Even though they are more loyal than most, I believe a company could be tricked into becoming a chaos follower.

Black templars are a chapter I would think least likely to fall, they do not worship the emperor as a god, and they are closer to original doctrines designed to stop chaos taking root.

And blood ravens are a foul and insidious chapter that make no sense in fluff, a mixture of geneseed abomination that should be wiped out. They were good until that mix of genesede lore came out.

[ElectricPaladin]

Black templars are a chapter I would think least likely to fall, they do not worship the emperor as a god, and they are closer to original doctrines designed to stop chaos taking root.

BUT, they are out of control. There's something to be said about that. They don't have a sense of honor or aesthetics, like the Blood Angels do, to elevate their blood-thirst to something more noble. They just like to kill heretics and aliens and psykers. It's easy to see how that could become a problem. All it would take is for them to start to enjoy it (Slaanesh) or lose control (Khorne) and they're in trouble.


And blood ravens are a foul and insidious chapter that make no sense in fluff, a mixture of geneseed abomination that should be wiped out. They were good until that mix of genesede lore came out.

I could see Blood Ravens. Thousand Sons and all that. It's clear that one of the rules of the setting is a certain kind of sympathetic magic when it comes to geneseed. If your primarch and most of your legion falls, it has the potential to suck the rest of the chapter down with it.

[Deadlift]

I just don't see the Ultramarines falling though, I also don't see the chapter as "arrogant" but confident in its application and adherence to the Codex Astartes. The Iron Hands though ? With their pursuit of perfection though bionics and the removal of their more human side, that's got a bit of a heretical ring to it ? Actually as one of my favourite loyalist chapters I don't see them falling either.

[ElectricPaladin]

I just don't see the Ultramarines falling though, I also don't see the chapter as "arrogant" but confident in its application and adherence to the Codex Astartes. The Iron Hands though ? With their pursuit of perfection though bionics and the removal of their more human side, that's got a bit of a heretical ring to it ? Actually as one of my favourite loyalist chapters I don't see them falling either.

Yeah, I can't see the Iron Hands falling, exactly. I can see them becoming so divorced from humanity that they f^ck off and stop contributing meaningfully to the defense of the Imperium, but I don't see them accepting a Chaotic taint. They're just too focused.

[Jmaximum]

Could someone post a link to fluff on 'The Knights of the Blood' please. Never heard of them until just now.

[ElectricPaladin]

Could someone post a link to fluff on 'The Knights of the Blood' please. Never heard of them until just now.

Here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=knights%20of%20the%20blood&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFQQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwh40k.lexicanum.com%2Fwiki%2FKnig hts_of_Blood_(Chapter)&ei=anBLUdijFInoiQL3xoCQDw&usg=AFQjCNHRea3KZcUb5IWSn9DnfVkHSCMwvw&bvm=bv.44158598,d.cGE) and here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=knights%20of%20the%20blood&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwarhammer40k.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FK nights_of_Blood&ei=anBLUdijFInoiQL3xoCQDw&usg=AFQjCNEK-PRO2YKQzynOsmN2uOgvo23ITg&bvm=bv.44158598,d.cGE).

[bfmusashi]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_of_Blood_(Chapter)#.UUtyihw4vvA
They have a different coloration in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines before the current one.

[Denzark]

BUT, they are out of control. There's something to be said about that. They don't have a sense of honor or aesthetics, like the Blood Angels do, to elevate their blood-thirst to something more noble. They just like to kill heretics and aliens and psykers. It's easy to see how that could become a problem. All it would take is for them to start to enjoy it (Slaanesh) or lose control (Khorne) and they're in trouble.






Arguably all marines should and do have a hatred of all xenos bordering on pathological - although this is seemingly more apparent during the HH compliance fleets etc. This blood lust is almost engineered into the geneseed. It could easily border on Khorne worship and whilst I think there must be an element of actual worship, untargeted events 'fall of Eldar' can contribute to a god - so a good xenocidal campaign surely contributes to Khorne in its own way, if indirectly.

[Wolfshade]

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering.

So if we assume that Yoda is correct does this mean that the hatred of Xenos is because of a fear of them and if so does this mean that "and they shall know no fear" is incorrect?

[Deadlift]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_of_Blood_(Chapter)#.UUtyihw4vvA
They have a different coloration in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines before the current one.

Despite the same name, are we sure they are one and the same, I always thought the chaos warband and the blood angels sucsessor chapter used the same name based solely on coincidence.

[ElectricPaladin]

Despite the same name, are we sure they are one and the same, I always thought the chaos warband and the blood angels sucsessor chapter used the same name based solely on coincidence.

My personal interpretation has always been that, away from the light of the Emperor, the Knights of the Blood have split, with some becoming a Khornate warband and the others remaining friendly psychopaths.

[bfmusashi]

I thought the same thing Electric, but I like Dead's bit too. The possibility of political shenanigans and misidentification can't be ignored. The best part of the Badab War books was seeing the whole thing spin out of control from Huron being caught flatfooted in the political arena.

[Chris*ta]

I can't believe this discussion has gone 4 pages and no one's said Dark Angels yet. Oh wait, they've already fell :p

As for discussion regarding Ultramarines, I think people are letting their Smurf Hate colour their opinion a bit much. Despite them ignoring the Codex Astartes (in spirit rather than letter) they're still one of the loyalest Chapters around.

[droozy]

I think any of the primarchs that are rumored to have disappeared into the eye of terror could return with more than a bit of taint. As we've seen primarchs are not immune to the whispering of the chaos gods and if any of them would return the legion would follow them, no matter where they were to lead

[musical-fool]

I think any of the primarchs that are rumored to have disappeared into the eye of terror could return with more than a bit of taint. As we've seen primarchs are not immune to the whispering of the chaos gods and if any of them would return the legion would follow them, no matter where they were to lead

That would be a brilliant story to read! We've already had a taste of that in the BA novels (2nd one me thinks).

[bfmusashi]

Pft, the primarchs are leading an army of orks through the Eye of Terror in their sweet custom Land Raider while the A-Team theme plays.

[Chris*ta]

I think any of the primarchs that are rumored to have disappeared into the eye of terror could return with more than a bit of taint. As we've seen primarchs are not immune to the whispering of the chaos gods and if any of them would return the legion would follow them, no matter where they were to lead


That would be a brilliant story to read! We've already had a taste of that in the BA novels (2nd one me thinks).

I wonder if it wouldn't be a better story if the 40k Marines didn't follow them, or maybe if the various Successor Chapters were divided in their decisions on whether or not to follow. Maybe it's just 'cos we've already seen Chaos Primarchs being followed by their Legions ;)

[kyfer]

If Ultramarines went to Chaos, so would Mat Ward.

Or is that the other way round?

Personally I think Salamanders, because:
a) Nobody's said them.
b) They're freaks amongst the marines as it is.
c) How awesome would mutated Salamanders look?
Oh and d) They're the only 'coloured' marines in the Imperium of Mankind. Even if it was another chapter, I could see the racist High Lords accusing the Salamanders for it, then getting the Grey Knights to use 'Imperial Brutality' on them.

[Chris*ta]

Even if it was another chapter, I could see the racist High Lords accusing the Salamanders for it, then getting the Grey Knights to use 'Imperial Brutality' on them.

I didn't think there was racism in the IoM. You know, except against xenos and mutants.

[Chris*ta]

Also, totally Dark Angels, you know, more than they have already fallen to Chaos.

[CraftWorld]

The likelihood of any of the remaining loyal first founding chapters going Excommunicate Traitoris is unlikely.

However, further foundings with diluted gene seed, which is more susceptible to corruption, are not out of the realms of possibility. Even the somewhat stable gene seed of the Imperial Fists resulted in the Soul Drinkers. Albeit in bizarre, misinformed circumstances.

In my opinion, out of the remaining loyal first founding chapters, the Blood Angels are the only Chapter close enough to the precipice themselves to produce wayward offspring who lack their integrity, tradition and resolve. Even then, the Flesh Tearers as a prime example, the subsequent foundings are adamant in their resolve to keep their daemons at bay, if you pardon the pun.

[Chris*ta]

The First Founding Chapters geneseed is as dilute as any of the later foundings though, isn't it? I mean it's 10,000 years old whether you're talking about the First Founding or the (what are we up to?) Twenty Sixth Founding ...

I think none of them have fell (at least en masse) for the same reason that none have been destroyed ... lead characters (or, in this case, Chapters) never die for no reason.

[Chris*ta]

Double post.

[Chris*ta]

Damn triple post.