Do we need to use the Warpstorm Table?

[el_tigre]

I'm not a daemons player and rarely come up against one in either system, so this is purely theoretical.

I honestly don't remember any facet of the game that has been so universally derided, and lord knows the net loves derision. I've seen a few folks mention ways you can mitigate the effects (spamming champs) and a few who've tried valiantly just to ignore the bloody thing, but no one, not a single person, who thinks it's a fun or even characterful addition to either game.

So why acknowledge it in the first place? Because it's in the dex/army book? I don't believe for a second that any other facet of the book takes the storm into account, not list design, not points cost. So as far as I can see, the only reason it's being used is because the books say we should. But I'm pretty sure the most important rule, stated at the start of every main rulebook for as long as I can remember, is play the game how you want to.

Personally I wouldn't be intersted in the slightest in leaving such large portions of the game completely beyond the control of either player, what with warlords (perhaps the model you've spent most time painting/ most money on) disappearing at random on 2d6, the ward/invulnerable save that the army mechanics are largely based on being massively affected, etc. But maybe that's just me.

Not collecting/playing daemons I would at the very least be happy to allow the player who has spent £100s on models and god knows how many hours decide whether this rediculous chart should unavoidably colour their gaming experience.

No reason either why Tournament Organizers shouldn't be able to have an adendum to the rules which says the table isn't used.

For perhaps the first time I find myself on the side of internet rage, and yet the solution seems simple. No?

[Learn2Eel]

I've played with it and watched others play with it and so far all it has been is a fun additional element to the game. It hasn't been as game-changing so far as everyone seems to think it always will be. Still, if you don't like it, you need to ask your opponent if they don't want to play with it; if both players agree, and your LGS manager (if you play at a store) accepts, then why not? As far as tournaments go, probably a few of them will remove it altogether through their 'house rules', though I personally think that kind of defeats the point of participating in a tournament with a particular army, but each to their own.

[Defenestratus]

Sorry if its in the book then you chose that army - that table is in there for game balance reasons. It really isn't bad and if you don't want to play by the rules then I'm sure you wont mind that I just decided that my wave serpents are all assault vehicles... right?

Plus that table is awesome fun. I'm thinking about making a khorne army just for fun.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry if its in the book then you chose that army - that table is in there for game balance reasons. It really isn't bad and if you don't want to play by the rules then I'm sure you wont mind that I just decided that my wave serpents are all assault vehicles... right?

Plus that table is awesome fun. I'm thinking about making a khorne army just for fun.

Pretty hard to disagree with that I must say! Hey, you do know my Tyranid Warriors have the Eternal Warrior special rule right? :D Oh and my Thousand Sons ignore cover :p

[Jenn]

I'm not a daemons player and rarely come up against one in either system, so this is purely theoretical.

I honestly don't remember any facet of the game that has been so universally derided, and lord knows the net loves derision. I've seen a few folks mention ways you can mitigate the effects (spamming champs) and a few who've tried valiantly just to ignore the bloody thing, but no one, not a single person, who thinks it's a fun or even characterful addition to either game.



Let me be that one for you. I've gotten in just under 10 games so far with the new Daemons and I've got to say, the warp storm chart is part of the reason why I love the codex so much.

Frankly put, it takes a bit of the pain out of taking a mostly assault based army. 50% of the time you are getting a 'shooting' result in which every unengaged enemy on the table has the chance of taking a hit. This is sorely needed, especially if you aren't spamming skull cannons/ soul grinders. In a pure assault list the game can quickly become hopeless if your units become whittled below effective strength, the warp storm table helps mitigate this effect by softening up enemy units and evening the odds for your assaults.

Another subtle thing the table does for the codex is encourage players to get their units stuck in. Anyone who's faced a fast assault army with their own fast assault army can tell you stories in which assault units will 'Dance' around eachother jockying for position in hopes of being the one who manages to get their charge off. The subtle nudge of the warp storm table helps soften the sting of letting the enemy charge you. You'll notice that most of the assault units have a built in buffer that makes being the assaultee less painful too. Khorne and Daemonette units have relatively high initiative that they normally don't get to use on the charge, while nurgle units have defensive grenades... Tzeentch units are just avoiding the assault anyone just on principal for the most part.

As for the more extreme results, I will admit that I think they went a little overboard on these but really they aren't as devastating as they appear. You have to roll incredibly high in order to straight up lose a greater daemon, and losing a herald isn't as devastating as people are complaining it is. in my third game I lost Karanak turn one to the storm and still managed to win my game. It did build a little bit of tension into the game but I relish the challenge. The thing to keep in mind about these is that they are rare, and sometimes do nothing. They build a bit of tension into the game that some enjoy, and they really play up the chaotic nature of Chaos Daemons.

Sure, someone somewhere will eventually lose a tournament championship game due to horrible luck on the storm table... but this is nothing new to 40k, and you can just as likely lose the game due to a failed charge/ run/ horrible shooting/ just general bad luck in any other facet of the game.

Just my two cents really.

[DrLove42]

Sure you can ignore it. But every unit must increase their points cost by 33%.

Thats why units are cheaper in this book than last. The table balences the costs

[Mr Mystery]

No we don't. But in recompense, I declare all my Necrons to be T6 with a 2++ save.

Rule is a rule. Play by them or find a different system.

[Caitsidhe]

Nothing about the table balances anything. They put it in because they thought it was cool. We won't know the balance of the book for several more months and it will turn out no more balanced than any of their other books. The golden rule is you guys can play the game however you are comfortable with. If you don't want to us the table, DON'T USE IT. The toys belong to you. You bought them. The game and how you play it is also your own affair. Play the game however you want. To the people telling you otherwise, "get a life."

The only thing you must be aware of is that the majority of people outside your group will continue to use it and tournaments will always use it. This means that as long as you don't care about gaming outside those who are willing to play your way, you are fine. Once you step outside that circle, you will be playing games with a facet you have not practiced and it will affect you more for lack of exposure.

[Defenestratus]

Nothing about the table balances anything. They put it in because they thought it was cool. We won't know the balance of the book for several more months and it will turn out no more balanced than any of their other books. The golden rule is you guys can play the game however you are comfortable with. If you don't want to us the table, DON'T USE IT. The toys belong to you. You bought them. The game and how you play it is also your own affair. Play the game however you want. To the people telling you otherwise, "get a life."

The only thing you must be aware of is that the majority of people outside your group will continue to use it and tournaments will always use it. This means that as long as you don't care about gaming outside those who are willing to play your way, you are fine. Once you step outside that circle, you will be playing games with a facet you have not practiced and it will affect you more for lack of exposure.

This is all true.

I was just relating what I'd say if asked if a daemon opponent could just not use the warp storm table.

Believe me I'm literally scared as hell of that table with my damn farseer able to get nuked every round.

[Caitsidhe]

This is all true.

I was just relating what I'd say if asked if a daemon opponent could just not use the warp storm table.

Oh, gotcha, i.e. someone in a pick up game asked you if they could skip the table. Fair enough. I'd tell them the same thing. :)


Believe me I'm literally scared as hell of that table with my damn farseer able to get nuked every round.

For the most part, as a CSM primary player, I find the Warp Storm kind of funny. It doesn't really hurt me. I don't use regular Sorcerers. I use Daemon Princes when I want a Psychic powers and Daemons are immune to the roll of eleven. :) When I do use Daemon is it generally as allies just so I can sneak in another something nasty and as a result, I don't use the Warp Storm for that either. I suppose someone could (VERY EASILY) make a list that was "primary something other than Daemons" but minimize the cost to a ridiculous level and then build a Daemons list using the more restrictive (but not that bad) force organization to get a Daemons list without a Warp Storm. I've experimented to see whether it can produce decent lists. You can certainly produce decent lists, although I'm not convinced they would ever be super competitive.

[Eberk]

But I'm pretty sure the most important rule, stated at the start of every main rulebook for as long as I can remember, is play the game how you want to.
I don't have my book with me but isn't the first rule that you should have fun ?

Otherwise I don't want to play with the 'deep strike mishap' table (always spot on), no 'deny the witch' and leadership/morale (my troops are tenacious) :)

[Chris Copeland]

If two gamers said, "Hey, let's play without the Deepstrike Mishap Chart today" and they agreed and were happy about it it would be a perfectly legitimate game/way to play. Countless articles by Jervis make this point and it has been made many times in the BRBs that GW produces. The first rule is to have fun. It's your game. Modify it. Play without point values. Change when shooting happens. Play without the Warp table... as long as both players agree then you are doing it right. Note: there are infinite reasons that one could write about why things are unfolding the way they are: atmospheric conditions, warp conditions, magic, super-technology, etc...

[Deadlift]

Copes got the right of it. If your opponent is up for it do what you like, you may struggle with some in a pickup game but if your gaming group is as relaxed as mine then give it a go. We let our Nid player take allies for instance and even added a allies chart just for him. I am trying to convince him to model an imperial guard / gene stealer cult army lol. My only stipulation would be to have a reason why x, y or z is happening or changing the rules to suit. Try it at least once and let us know how you get on. Or if your gaming groups anything like mine we sometimes struggle to remember much about our games due to beer ;)

Got to remember, 40k is supposed to be fun.

[memnarch_129]

As everyone has pretty much said 40K is supposed to be fun. Now while that is the primary rule I would also say that you do need to accept parts you dont like. The Warpstorm Table is no where near as bad as the internet is making it out to be, its almost mute 60-75% of the time. But it is part of the Daemon codex and part of their rules. One of my local friends plays Grey Knights and he hates the table, but with that in mind I know he wouldnt mind me using it because its part of my codex. Asking me to not use the Warpstorm table would be the same as me asking him to ignore all his weapons are Force Weapons, or ignoreing the Psylancers 2+ to wound against Daemons. These are parts of what make those armies who they are, and to remove one of them is making the army a shell of its former self. Now Im not saying you must use rules at the lose of the game being fun, but some rules, like the Warpstorm Table or the Boon of Chaos chart or even the Lightning strikes from Imhotekh the Stormlord, are what make the armies unique and not just another bunch of plastic army guys with different numbers.