GW to ban all online sales

[HiveStar]

Retailers just got the news today in the form of the updated 2013 Retailer Policy: No online sales of GW products.

Thanks GW. Wonder how many people you just sent to the unemployment lines..

Hope everyone likes paying full SRP!

[jgebi]

WTF this is a make or break thing for alot of people I know, any idea why they are doing this?, well looks like we need a new game.

[Wolfshade]

Surely this should be in Wargames corporate discussion?

[spaceman91]

Well done GW. How to p##s off lots of your customers.

[Renegade]

Is there any proof of this? Trust but verify being the reason I ask, and I can find no verification...

[Wolfshade]

Well done GW. How to p##s off lots of your customers.

Are they GW customers or are they 3rd party customers that they are trying to convert to their own, if this is true.

[HiveStar]

Is there any proof of this? Trust but verify being the reason I ask, and I can find no verification...

Its in the PDF document they just sent to all retailers. Can't post it now, but im sure someone will.

Basically, GW has been moving toward this for at least a year. They say online sales hurt the hobby, but what they really want is 100% of online profits at full markup. If they wanted to help the hobby, they would lower prices so more people could play.

[Charistoph]

Are they GW customers or are they 3rd party customers that they are trying to convert to their own, if this is true.

It really is the same thing in the long run. It's no more different than having an LGS within shouting of a GW Brick. The Online stores can just shout at a longer range.

[bfmusashi]

While I pay full retail to support my local store on occasion (like 30% of the total) the majority of my purchases are made online at significantly less. I will not be able to support GW at all if the only option is MSRP. I just don't get $82 of joy from a Storm Raven.

[el_tigre]

My grasp of corporate law is next to useless, but surely there's a law somewhere that prohibits a company from using outside retailers whilst also banning them from using online sales. Can't think of any other example where this applies.

[Denzark]

We need the documentary evidence before getting on the outrage bus...

[olec]

next step of gw will be banning local retailers selling their stuff....

im getting more and more the feeling GW is digging a huge hole for themselves and they dont even see it ... <now hand over a shovel im digging too>

[eldargal]

We need the documentary evidence before getting on the outrage bus...

This. If all retailers had got this email I would have expected it to crop up already in the usual whinefest forums. I want to actually hear from some actual retailers before I get cranky.

[Defenestratus]

I'm inclined to not believe this, but if any company is as stupid, moronic, asinine or out of touch enough to make a seriously bad decision like this, its GW.

[White Tiger88]

3 posts and trolling already! This would be the stupidest thing GW could do for there sales.

[lobster-overlord]

THis is the same rumor that went around 10 years ago. See it when I believe it

http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-45182.html

That rumor was just people misinterpreting the "no shopping cart sales" rule. THey're just opening them selves up to having competition take more of the market as they'll be more readily available and at the usual 20% online-retailer discount, be considered even more of a discount.

[Renegade]

It really is the same thing in the long run. It's no more different than having an LGS within shouting of a GW Brick. The Online stores can just shout at a longer range.

Not sure how things work in the US, but all the local GW's that I know of, point vets to the other clubs.

The LGS gets the long timers while the GW's gets the kids, GW likes it that way, and I got told this by a black shirt.

Now I know that GW were cracking down on non-brick, but there were some really dodgy internet only dealers, so cannot really blame them as they end up getting the crappy end of it.

However, as long as the store is independent, they can price lower than the RRP even if GW start putting prices on the boxes.

[Phototoxin]

This. If all retailers had got this email I would have expected it to crop up already in the usual whinefest forums. I want to actually hear from some actual retailers before I get cranky.

remember; you can't spell warseer without 'arse' ;-)

[jgebi]

umm whats LGS stand for?

[ChacoStylez]

L. ocal
G. ame
S. tore

[Aegis]

Not to fan the flames, but a local store in Toronto Canada just posted a notice on facebook along the lines of ceasing online sales (and likely the product completely) by June 15th in accordance with a GW notice.

Creating some unease, to say the least...

[HsojVvad]

Not to fan the flames, but a local store in Toronto Canada just posted a notice on facebook along the lines of ceasing online sales (and likely the product completely) by June 15th in accordance with a GW notice.

Creating some unease, to say the least...

What store would that be?

[Aegis]

What store would that be?

Meeplemart. As far as I know, Dueling Grounds has not issued anything yet. I am also waiting to hear what Miniwargames has to say about it, as they are my primary source...

[Kawauso]

This is something that definitely warrants some confirmation/clarification before any rage or panic ensues.

That said, if there's any truth to it...
Well, I've got quite a backlog of unpainted models. Enough to keep me busy without buying any new GW kits for a very, very long time...

[Defenestratus]

This is something that definitely warrants some confirmation/clarification before any rage or panic ensues.

That said, if there's any truth to it...
Well, I've got quite a backlog of unpainted models. Enough to keep me busy without buying any new GW kits for a very, very long time...

I just heard from a friend who runs a store. He got the email.

[Pendragon38]

Really!!! This blows. How the hell else am I suppose to do conversion for this expensive hobby of mine.

[Kawauso]

That's really disappointing. =/ I'm still looking forward to reading the actual letter (and seeing the response from various stores) myself, but...

GW is helping me save a lot of money in doing this. I think I'm going to stop purchasing models and just worry about painting them at least until I have a regular play group. And I'm not likely to find one for a long while...

[flekkzo]

This just reeks of some suit/business type guy that has read something and think they can somehow improve their revenue/profit this way.

I think GW has terrible business sense :(

[Kawauso]

Front page indicates that only bitz sales are being affected.

Anyone care to clarify or shed further light?

Also, what constitutes a GW 'Partner'?

Would this affect sites that deal primarily in bitz (such as Let the Dice Decide)? Or would it only affect sites that sell both full model kits and individual parts?
Either way I can't see it affecting things like eBay bitz suppliers (or am I wrong?)...

[LordGrise]

If true, this would be an insane business strategy. Literally not-sane; the only possible outcome of this would be to turn every LGS into Hordes and Dust retailers, and both those games sell for a damn sight less than 40K. Why in hell would a manufacturer want to drive all the independent retailers away from selling their product? Are they so utterly arrogant as to think they can survive that way?

[eldargal]

Reading the front page article there are a couple of things we need to know before the panic, nerdrage and threats of self immolation start:

a) Is this US only? The article mentions the online sales cart thing which seems only to be in the US.
b) Is this limited to bits only or are ALL online sales affected?

[pauljc]

Ok, well I'm an independant EU retailer, and haven't received any such policy change information yet. Either it's because it's weekend here, as I write this, or it's a US-only thing.

It's probably because you're all a bunch of dirty Yanks who don't support your local stores and live off the interwebs. ;)

(j/k)

[Blusox69]

Pualjc, I think EU competition laws may have something to say about this which is why you may not have had the email

[Renegade]

EU competition laws have nothing on this, plenty of national regulation on it though. Have any retailers check whats what with GW by phone?

Edit.
This seems like a US only thing, not interested.

[pauljc]

The Scandinavian rep will be calling me sometime next week. I'll ask and see what blurb she has to say.

[bfmusashi]

Ok, well I'm an independant EU retailer, and haven't received any such policy change information yet. Either it's because it's weekend here, as I write this, or it's a US-only thing.

It's probably because you're all a bunch of dirty Yanks who don't support your local stores and live off the interwebs. ;)

(j/k) Like many jokes this one is pretty accurate :p

[TheBitzBarn]

This is a US only and this ONLY for Stores That Buy Directly form GW.

This does not effect the Bitzbarn.com as we are Not a GW store. we buy form other sources. This is them Upset they are not capturing 100% of all sales that our out there. Greed and belief that this hurts the Hobby. Dumb Headed.

We are still selling and restocking

[Caitsidhe]

This is a US only and this ONLY for Stores That Buy Directly form GW.

This does not effect the Bitzbarn.com as we are Not a GW store. we buy form other sources. This is them Upset they are not capturing 100% of all sales that our out there. Greed and belief that this hurts the Hobby. Dumb Headed.

We are still selling and restocking

Good to hear. You just started getting more of my purchases on general principle.

[Renegade]

This is a US only and this ONLY for Stores That Buy Directly form GW.

This does not effect the Bitzbarn.com as we are Not a GW store. we buy form other sources. This is them Upset they are not capturing 100% of all sales that our out there. Greed and belief that this hurts the Hobby. Dumb Headed.

We are still selling and restocking

IDK, at least you can be sure that your not buying sweatshop, and that they have to conform to environmentally friendly regulations.

A purchase with a clear conscience, which is more than one can say if they drink Coca cola.

[HiveStar]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2zne5ewd4fBemhzRE5KM3BlUGs/edit?usp=sharing

Tried uploading to google docs. Let me know if it worked.

This should link to the pdf that got sent out DELIBERATELY at the end of the day, after most retailer offices were closed.

This is far more wide reaching than just effecting the bitz policy.

[Caitsidhe]

I think I just laughed myself into a hernia. Yes, the implications go far beyond bits. I think the next year is going to be very amusing to watch. They are deluded and probably facing a huge financial crisis when the Chapterhouse Court Case comes to a close. This is partly in response to the fact that their lawyers are telling them that they are not going to get the outcome they wanted. It is partly in response to a cooking of the books to maintain share values so they looked "recession proof." There aren't enough stores to close or other general costs to cut anymore to shore up values. They have been hiding their situation pretty well, but eventually the check has to be paid. This year should prove hilarious.

[Blusox69]

http://youtu.be/SXVKj0KcbIQ

Oldie but goodie

[Hive Mind]

Section III, para. A;

"North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, web-portal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind."

Pretty unequivocal.

[Absolon]

Waiting to see Mike and or Neal's response to this change. Both of their respective stores do a good volume of sales. I just cant see them taking this without comment

[memnarch_129]

As Hive Mind said above it seems pretty clear cut. After reading most of the Doc it seems that any retailer who buys directly from games workshop CAN NOT in any way sell GW product online. Now there appears to be a way around this that most businesses will probably take, and I think most stores do this now anyway. This change in policy only affect GW affiliate stores, those who buy there stock directly from GW. If a store goes through a distributor, such as Alliance or Diamond, then they are technically not required to abid by this new agreement. Now I didnt check but knowing GW there is probably a clause in there that GW can hold a Distributor responisble if any of their buyers sell GW product online. After sixth I thought GW was going the right direction Game wise, but with these kind of moves business wise I may have to just forget any GW game as if they keep up things like this and the Chapterhouse lawsuit, there is no telling how much longer GW will be profitable or be in business at all.

[Krisken]

As Hive Mind said above it seems pretty clear cut. After reading most of the Doc it seems that any retailer who buys directly from games workshop CAN NOT in any way sell GW product online. Now there appears to be a way around this that most businesses will probably take, and I think most stores do this now anyway. This change in policy only affect GW affiliate stores, those who buy there stock directly from GW. If a store goes through a distributor, such as Alliance or Diamond, then they are technically not required to abid by this new agreement. Now I didnt check but knowing GW there is probably a clause in there that GW can hold a Distributor responisble if any of their buyers sell GW product online. After sixth I thought GW was going the right direction Game wise, but with these kind of moves business wise I may have to just forget any GW game as if they keep up things like this and the Chapterhouse lawsuit, there is no telling how much longer GW will be profitable or be in business at all.

Actually, the specific wording disagrees with your assertion those who purchase through Alliance or Diamond would be able to sell online as both of those are "GW Approved Distributors". It's outlined in the very first paragraph of the document.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2zne5ewd4fBemhzRE5KM3BlUGs/edit

[scarylion]

Sounds to me they are trying to prevent the same sort of thing that happened with HMV etc.. shops going out of business (probably scared them) because people would rather buy the products online for less. Bit of a ****ty thing to do but I can understand where they are coming from, bummer!

[Ghostofman]

Gotta agree that this is little douchey. My more rational half says it's to stop things like Warstore selling unboxed kits with just the more high demand components removed. I've noticed they do things like sell tactical squads without boxes, or stripped razorback kits as unboxed Rhinos in their bits section. But the other half of me sees a scenario where one of the marketing wienies says in a meeting that the total sales value of a GK termie box worth of bitz was around $114 US, and suggests that that constitutes $64 (at least) in "lost profits." If GW starts selling more bits or at least individual frames then I'll at least get where they are coming from, but I don't think they have the infrastructure to sell specific components or frames from actual kits.

I don't mind driving down to my FLGS when I want a fresh new product, I'd rather he get some of my money then GW get all of it. But if I just want one weapon, or component or something I'd rather do without, greenstuff, or do the dreaded thing that shall not be named then buy a $45 NIB kit that I really have no use for.

It's a shame they went this way instead of just saying in the retail policy "We reserve the right to not sell to anyone for any reasons we see fit" and then just call up the real offenders and tell em to knock it off. But this seems like GW's MO: It's easier to just be a jerk then it is to come up with better solution.

It'll be especially interesting to see how far they try and take this when it comes to the various Ebay bits stores.

[Hive Mind]

What they're trying to do is force the people in North America who do not live close to a LGS or cannot access one for whatever reason to buy from GW at full price. North America is not like the UK; lots and lots of people can't just jump in a car or on a bus and be in a city in twenty minutes.

Previously these people were buying online at 20% off GW's prices. Now they have to pay full price from GW's website.

They're also trying to make people drop $60 on a box of GK Terminators if they need a Psycannon.

[lobster-overlord]

Not just people who live away from LGS's, but those who live close to some still would prefer to buy from online retailers because of the discount, and then come in and syphon free table time without spending anymoney in the LGS and expect to be treated equally. Those people are the ones killing the LGS's, not the rural customers. I used to live 2 hours from my nearest store (back in the 90's) and I would travel hours to go to GW because it was the awesome thing to do (no LGS would touch the product back then due to lack of notariety in our area.).

Making blanket asumptions about any part of it is wrong. There are so many different things that are happening.

I know one store in particular that is a large LGS and one of the major bits players that's going to die because of this, and frankly, I'm happy. They treat their local customers like crap and give preference to the online bits customers on product and accessibility.

One LGS has done very well with GW product, despite not offering any kind of discount, and they're going to survive very nicely with this new policy, and I'm glad they will.

John M>

[TheBitzBarn]

What do you mean by sweatshop and enviromental friendly practices. We have 3 total employees we pay more than minimun wage and offer generous employee discounts. and we recycle everything

[Caitsidhe]

One thing they want is to push up their numbers for an upcoming financial report. They pushed this rule down the road to June on purpose. Their idea is that all these places who have been selling online and breaking up for bits will make MASSIVE buys before the rules change. It would be another artificial sales bump to offset other issues. Whether or not they keep the rule in place or truly believe it will stop people from doing what they want is beside the point. Chances are they will change the policy later or simply accept it doesn't stop the resale. Either way they get the artificial sales bump which is what they need fast and in the short term.

Nothing prevents someone who owns a game shop from simply opening a distinct business for online and then selling to him/herself at cost. They other business then sells the Games Workshop product. It is neatly accomplished as there is no way for Games Workshop to enforce or investigate to whom or what models are sold. They have to know this as well as I do. I personally believe this is just a stunt (a desperate one) to push up massive sales between now and mid-June.

[TheBitzBarn]

Plus they have to Prove that I did not buy my product form someone and then reselling there leftovers.

[Caitsidhe]

Plus they have to Prove that I did not buy my product form someone and then reselling there leftovers.

Exactly. It is an idiotic policy because they have no way to enforce it. Will Games Workshop demand that every LGS send them records of whom they sold to? Will every model have a distinct serial number on it? :D What the policy does is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to those businesses who do their business online as these businesses will take the short steps to bypass it without blinking. It might affect some poor souls who don't have a local LGS and who feel they cannot buy third party and thus must order from Games Workshop. Go figure.

What is more the policy will only ratchet up the speed at which aftermarket companies provide bits. Aside from the sales stunt that I suggest above, the policy is Lose/Lose for them beyond the extremely short term. I personally doubt that most of the online companies will fall for it. I suspect most of them have plenty of stock in hand and will take the slow measured steps (at least I hope so) to bypass the stupid rule without falling for the "must make massive buys now" trick. It isn't necessary.

[lobster-overlord]

One thing they want is to push up their numbers for an upcoming financial report. They pushed this rule down the road to June on purpose. Their idea is that all these places who have been selling online and breaking up for bits will make MASSIVE buys before the rules change. It would be another artificial sales bump to offset other issues. Whether or not they keep the rule in place or truly believe it will stop people from doing what they want is beside the point. Chances are they will change the policy later or simply accept it doesn't stop the resale. Either way they get the artificial sales bump which is what they need fast and in the short term.

Nothing prevents someone who owns a game shop from simply opening a distinct business for online and then selling to him/herself at cost. They other business then sells the Games Workshop product. It is neatly accomplished as there is no way for Games Workshop to enforce or investigate to whom or what models are sold. They have to know this as well as I do. I personally believe this is just a stunt (a desperate one) to push up massive sales between now and mid-June.

Actually, both of your key points here are wrong. The new policy distinctly prohibits both the resale to another retail entity and takes effect on the day the policy states, thus a huge order is going to be worthless to them because they won't be able to sell it starting that date, They can order what ever they want when ever, that won't change, but the outlet for selling it off goes away. And most retailers, if you notice, don't actually carry their inventory. They give long lag times and order from Gw to get your order in. The good ones carry an inventory, and even that is hugely expensive.

Also, to bitzbarn's credit, I worked for a bits store (one of the bigger ones) and we got paid great, got to do a lot of the work at home and even got great discounts. Just the boss was a jerk.

And if you watch some bits stores, every year that GW makes a price increas, the price goes up to what the bits store was getting for that kit bitted out. (retail =$25, Bitted = $35, Gw would raise price to $35) Saw that pretty consistent for 3 years. Blame them, not GW for the price hikes.

[TheBitzBarn]

Actually, both of your key points here are wrong. The new policy distinctly prohibits both the resale to another retail entity and takes effect on the day the policy states, thus a huge order is going to be worthless to them because they won't be able to sell it starting that date, They can order what ever they want when ever, that won't change, but the outlet for selling it off goes away. And most retailers, if you notice, don't actually carry their inventory. They give long lag times and order from Gw to get your order in. The good ones carry an inventory, and even that is hugely expensive.

Also, to bitzbarn's credit, I worked for a bits store (one of the bigger ones) and we got paid great, got to do a lot of the work at home and even got great discounts. Just the boss was a jerk.

And if you watch some bits stores, every year that GW makes a price increas, the price goes up to what the bits store was getting for that kit bitted out. (retail =$25, Bitted = $35, Gw would raise price to $35) Saw that pretty consistent for 3 years. Blame them, not GW for the price hikes.

Your wrong on a key point. When a Bits store prices product they know such as my self that at least a 3rd of those items will sit for year, such as CSM bolt pistol arms, and they there for have to cover the cost of the box around the key items that will sell and the rest will end up in a grab bag as they end up with 59 SM sensor heads and at .20 cents no one wants them. so we price it because we know that only certain items will sell well and we will be left holding on to tons of things like SM grenade arms and ork slugga arms for a while and will eventually have to dump them in a Grab bag. so yes we do price the contents slightly higher, for us it is usually 5 to 7 dollars, but we do that cause NO ONE buys the entire box that way. Even hot boxes like Grey Knights NO ONE buys the entire contents of the box in Bitz they buy what they need. If you worked for one you would know that. So bits sites are NOT driving GW prices.

And second the policy takes effect like June or July 15th not NOW so some people will do a big buy up.

[Caitsidhe]

Actually, both of your key points here are wrong. The new policy distinctly prohibits both the resale to another retail entity and takes effect on the day the policy states, thus a huge order is going to be worthless to them because they won't be able to sell it starting that date, They can order what ever they want when ever, that won't change, but the outlet for selling it off goes away. And most retailers, if you notice, don't actually carry their inventory. They give long lag times and order from Gw to get your order in. The good ones carry an inventory, and even that is hugely expensive.

Umm... no? :) They don't sell it to another retail entity. They sell it to a person. That person then sells it. They can do it JUST the way they always have. The policy can't prohibit it because they aren't selling to an entity. They are selling to an individual and then that individual then places the stock in his/her company.



And if you watch some bits stores, every year that GW makes a price increas, the price goes up to what the bits store was getting for that kit bitted out. (retail =$25, Bitted = $35, Gw would raise price to $35) Saw that pretty consistent for 3 years. Blame them, not GW for the price hikes.

Yeah. Bizarro world logic doesn't wash here. :) The reason the kit stores can raise their prices is because Games Workshop raises theirs. If Games Workshop charged less, the kit stores would have to follow or people would just by from Games Workshop.

[Caitsidhe]

And second the policy takes effect like June or July 15th not NOW so some people will do a big buy up.

I sure hope not. It won't be necessary when there are easy work around solutions. Besides, why give in and be crassly manipulated by Games Workshop, in effect rewarding them with a big sales boost for their quarter for giving you such companies the bird? :D

[TheBitzBarn]

I sure hope not. It won't be necessary when there are easy work around solutions. Besides, why give in and be crassly manipulated by Games Workshop, in effect rewarding them with a big sales boost for their quarter for giving you such companies the bird? :D

I totally agree. You have named it on the head. Store A sells to Customer B at a Discount because they are a Club Member then Cusomer B sells it to Bitz Store C. The Prices might go up because GW will reduce the supply and increase the cost of doing business. But as long as some one wants a Right Hand Inferno Pistol and does not want to pay 35.00 for it there will be someone to sell it to them.

[Chris Copeland]

^this. Bingo.

[LordGrise]

This is an insane policy. Wonder how long it's going to take for the big distributors to take it to court? If they don't, then they'll just quit carrying GW product. AFAIK there are only two brick and mortar LGS in San Antonio that carry GW, and I very much doubt after this they will continue to do so; they both have told me they hate doing biz w GW because they get treated so poorly. I won't do biz w the local GW store; the manager there is an utter fill-in-the-blank (use your favorite perjorative) who likes to publicly shame people.

[Chris Copeland]

I have to step in here. The manager of the San Antonio game store is one of the nicest fellows I've ever met. He is gregarious, funny, and runs a nice, small store.

Grise, you and I probably know each other... the SA scene is small enough that I know most of the players around. I'm a little shocked that you'd come out swinging against a guy who is working hard to build the hobby in the greater San Antonio area. Perhaps you should go back to the store and give it another chance... it sounds like you had a bad day the last time you were there. Cheers.

[Chris Copeland]

AFAIK there are only two brick and mortar LGS in San Antonio that carry GW, and I very much doubt after this they will continue to do so; they both have told me they hate doing biz w GW because they get treated so poorly

There are two Alien World stores and one Dragon's Lair in San Antonio. All three shops seems (to the outside eye) to be doing well selling GW stuff. I mostly play at DL and there are regular, successful 40K and WFB tournaments there. I know the TOs for both the San Pedro Alien Worlds shop and the Dragon's Lair shop... both TOs are actively and happily scheduling events and regularly get good turnouts. None of the shops in town sell on-line (as far as I know)... so, I think you might be mistaken about all of the above. Cheers. Copeland

[LordGrise]

Hoss, you and I have met, and I respect you. But the guy out there at the San Antonio Games Workshop store saw fit to try to publicly shame me because I dared to mention another company's paints in a conversation with another guy in the store. His exact words were "Hey, man, don't talk about my competition's stuff, okay? I'm trying to make a buck here!" shouted from the cash register, and heard by everyone in the store - probably a couple dozen present, given how crowded it was. Cue needle scratching across the record sound, followed by a single cricket chirping as everyone in the store looks to see what is going on.

My response was "Having heard that, I will never set foot in this store again while you work here. Good Day." and I walked out. And I mean it. In the meantime, I have related that incident every time it has been appropriate, to whomever will listen, and I will continue to do so at every appropriate opportunity I get until I either hear that he no longer works there, or I get an equally public apology from him. Which, given that I won't go to that store, is his issue to try to fix. Not that I would expect him to.

[Chris Copeland]

Grise, I can vouch that he is a really nice guy and working his tail off to build up the hobby in SA. I suggest that you shouldn't let one interaction poison the well between y'all. Also, knocking him like this (in a forum dedicated to his profession) seems harsh.

Have you considered your culpability in all of this? It sounds like you were recommending another line of paint to a customer in his establishment and he asked you to stop. That store is the smallest game store I've ever seen: of course everyone in the store would have heard the interaction. Perhaps you both erred.

I suspect that if you went back to the store the whole thing could be talked through in an adult and pleasant manner. All of the above is my two cents. I'm easy to find for further discussions (either here or in the Gaming Garage). I just hate to see a good man knocked unnecessarily. Cheers. Chris Copeland

[LordGrise]

As far as the stores go, I'll accept your word on that; my convo w Dragon's Lair was a couple years ago when I was trying to get Broadsides. I've never talked to the San Pedro Alien Worlds; i have talked to the 410 store, but again, it was a while ago. I know Dibbles has reduced what they carry, although they still carry some.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

So you tell everyone that story? Having heard it, I'm on his side.

San Antonio's a lovely city, by the by. I miss it - it's snowing right now here in England. :(

[Renegade]

What do you mean by sweatshop and enviromental friendly practices. We have 3 total employees we pay more than minimun wage and offer generous employee discounts. and we recycle everything

If you read the thing through, you'll find that I was taking about the product and the plus side of GW.

People are giving GW a rough time for being a bit pushy, but at the end of the day, GW are the ones that make the goods. The way some people here go over the top, one would think that they were using sweatshops with kiddie labour and polluting vast in swathes.

I hope the people raging against GW are as particular in what they eat, drink and wear, and not being rather a tad hypocritical.

[Bigred]

And back to the GW's new policy discussion esteemed gentlemen...


See how I did that - I'm the nice cop :)

[eldargal]

So, it's US only? 1776 not looking so smart now is it.:cool:

[Denzark]

So, it's US only? 1776 not looking so smart now is it.:cool:

13 rebel colonies my tea tax...

[Gotthammer]

So, it's US only? 1776 not looking so smart now is it.:cool:

Poor Canada, it seems the motherland has forgotten you're part of the Commonwealth too, lol :p

Still, a rather drastic move and not one that will work out well in the long run I don't think.



See how I did that - I'm the nice cop :)

It's that winning smile that does it ;)

[Bigred]

If you all read the GW policy addendum, you will see that they devote almost an entire page to all the evils of online sales.

According to GW, online sales damage their brand, hurt the IP, promote "freeloading" and myriad other greivous social issues.

And it is ONLY for these SERIOUS, SERIOUS reasons that GW must reluctantly prohibit all online sales of their product and ensure that customers may only purchase online from their own corporate GW website (they after all only have the best interests of their customers in mind).

BUT...

You will note that European Union merchants can happily have webstores, with shopping carts, and not only that, but happily ship GW products overseas (say for example to the United States).

Apparently the great evils of online sales stop at the shores of North America. A quick analysis of various webstores around the world will show that this new GW policy would have the effect of giving the entire global online marketplace to EU merchants all wrapped up with a bow on top.

If I were a betting man, I would guess that there is ZERO CHANCE major American merchants will take this without a serious fight, once that business reality sinks in.

This is going to be interesting...

[LordGrise]

I'm betting that there is something in either British or EU corporate law that prohibits this sort of power play. Anyone know the relevant laws well enough to know if an anti-discrimination suit would fly?

[DragonPup]

I am curious if some of the merchants will start trying to push non-GW games harder in response. It certainly sounds like GW is not fun to work with.

[Deadlift]

GW does still ship from inside North America ? From its warehouses based there. So basically this is aimed squarely at the discount and bitz sellers then. You guys on the other side of the pond can still get GW products, your just expected to pay full price and direct to GW. I can understand why they would do this, but can also understand why it would upset you guys too. I'm looking forward to
Miniwargamings response. Personally I am not effected but I don't want to see GW lose hobbyists wherever they live on the globe.

[Gotthammer]

I think part of it is also aimed at the distributors & ebay. The wording is significantly tightened up from just "a web cart" or whatever the old version was to any online service to resell (like some stores who have their regular e-store + ebay for full GW kits).
The part about removing supply to distributors is also cleared up as it explicitly states that distributors can be cut off if they supply someone violating terms, while the original 2003 wasn't so clear, sounding more like they could only be cut off it they themselves were online selling. Of course that would be a grey area and we know how either side would interpret it, so good to see they cleared it up (GW love their RAW vs RAI, even in their legal documents :rolleyes: ).

[Kirsten]

I do not agree with everything GW do, they make their share of mistakes, but it is important to consider that trying to push their own sales is not just some randomly thought up villainous policy, nor is it unique to GW. Plenty of products are restricted in sales in some fashion, like approved stockists/dealerships. We are in an incredibly serious world wide recession, retailers are dropping like flies, and they are trying to protect their business. There might be better ways of doing it, who knows. Certainly most people complaining about it don't know, but they have to do something.

[morninson]

I do not agree with everything GW do, they make their share of mistakes, but it is important to consider that trying to push their own sales is not just some randomly thought up villainous policy, nor is it unique to GW. Plenty of products are restricted in sales in some fashion, like approved stockists/dealerships. We are in an incredibly serious world wide recession, retailers are dropping like flies, and they are trying to protect their business. There might be better ways of doing it, who knows. Certainly most people complaining about it don't know, but they have to do something.

Spot on. The business end of this sucks, but GW are just trying to survive as a business. It looks as though their ability to protect their IP is going to take a huge hit if this Chapterhouse lawsuit goes south for them. All that effort to build a brand, create universes, stories and characters that we've grown to love (plenty of it ripped from history but also plenty original). Half the time the haters I read on here sound like they expect GW to be doing this **** for free!

I don't agree with everything they do. But let's be grown up about this - it's a luxury product, it's not bread, gas or milk, it is still cheaper to build an army than it is to buy a PS4, and half a dozen games.

[Mr Mystery]

Online discounts hurt your Indie. Not GW.

So who is being protected here?

[scadugenga]

Except most indies have an online presence.

[Defenestratus]

Except most indies have an online presence.

My local store just closed its retail store and opened up shop in an industrial park. Tons of gaming space but absolutely NO retail presence whatsoever. The idea was to ask players to pay a membership fee for a discount card, then supplement the cost of the business with an online presence.

In this case, the clampdown directly affects my LGS.

[pauljc]

So I just got off the phone with my GW sales rep (Scandinavian region), and they confirmed that they have been checking into sales of parts, and effectively clamping down on that by freezing accounts where necessary.

From the tone of voice and detail of the answer, it was clear she was well-versed in the topic, but not reading from a pre-prepped blurb.

But, the main reason they are doing this is actually due to safety. Because of various safety laws involving toys and such, GW is legally responsible for how their products are packaged and distributed into customer's hands. Which is why each package is covered in stickers, legal logos, and contains sufficient safety instructions.
When a product is broken up and sold commercially as parts, GW is still accountable to a degree, while no longer having control of the 'safe delivery' of their product.

The policy has actually been like this for years. It's just they have only recently begun stepping up checking into it.

Now, I'm sure conspiracy theorists and GW haters will call BS, but having visited Nottingham HQ several times as a GW manager, I can tell you that they do indeed have an entire department responsible for not just quality control, but also safety assurance.

[pauljc]

Online discounts hurt your Indie. Not GW.

So who is being protected here?

It does hurt GW as well, though. Because without physical stores, there are no new gamers coming into the hobby.
When all the brick n' mortars shut down, where will the next breed of gamers come from? Where will they play.

No physical stores = no new gamers.
No new gamers = no more hobby.
No more hobby = no GW.

:)

[LordGrise]

It does hurt GW as well, though. Because without physical stores, there are no new gamers coming into the hobby.
When all the brick n' mortars shut down, where will the next breed of gamers come from? Where will they play.

No physical stores = no new gamers.
No new gamers = no more hobby.
No more hobby = no GW.

:)

This is precisely correct. GW still sells to the resellers, they move product, albeit at a reduced profit (wholesale vs retail) To try to force everyone in North America to order online from GW direct, with no middlemen, is a not-sane policy; the dstributors and LGS will start pushing Warmahordes and Dust. I do not believe GW can move enough full-retail product reliably to make up the difference, and in any case, the movement of new players into the game will all but cease in North America owing to lack of exposure and lack of places to play.

I guess GW wants to concentrate on the EU and Far East areas, and concede North America. I don't know why else they would do such a thing

[Kirsten]

I don't agree, I got in to the game as a kid, I have always played at home, don't use the local club. we have also never had a GW store over here, and only odd toy shops carrying the occasional few models, I always bought direct from GW over the phone. No doubt it will reduce some sales, but it wont stop new hobbyists. Everyone and their dog can access the internet these days from phone/laptop/tv/microwave and they can find everything they need to know.

[Wolfshade]

I don't agree, I got in to the game as a kid, I have always played at home, don't use the local club. we have also never had a GW store over here, and only odd toy shops carrying the occasional few models, I always bought direct from GW over the phone. No doubt it will reduce some sales, but it wont stop new hobbyists. Everyone and their dog can access the internet these days from phone/laptop/tv/microwave and they can find everything they need to know.

I think this sums up my experiance as well. I got into GW because of a friend and speaking to all of my gaming group, they either got in because of a friend or through another direct source e.g. Battle for Armaggeddon/ The Horus Heresy board games

[Kirsten]

all the licensed games will keep interest going too, Dawn of War got plenty of people into 40k.

[Daemonette666]

I was discussing this with a guy who used to play 40K, but now plays Warmahordes and Flames of War. He said that a company can not stop other companies from reselling their products online in Australia, and can not set the prices for their products when being sold at bricks and mortar stores that purchase their products and then sell them to the public. He mentioned price fixing and Monopolies.

After talking to him, I am of the understanding that GW are undertaking the illegal act of Price fixing, and forcing the market to be solely in their hands being sold at the prices they set, and making it so others can not trade/sell their products as a free market society dictates. I believe the U.S.A. has similar trade laws to those in Australia. Quite a few large companies including fuel/petrol companies and grocery supermarket chains have been penalised by the Australian Government for organising their dealers and stores to set the prices to their advantage to oust competitors. I would wonder whether the USA and Australian governments penalised GW for similar activities.

It certainly is a game make or break move, and if people in Australia and the USA do not stand up for themselves, by either looking for new gaming systems, or refusing to buy any more of GWs products (using another companies products to represent the relevant minis, then GW will carry on treating the consumers as Smeg and keep trodding all over us. I think I have bought my last GW miniature.

I wonder if they will stop places like E-Bay from letting people sell their old GW armies when they decide to sell up and go to another system that does not have too many random charts, and cinematic game rules that confuse the hell out of new player, and require FAQs to fix. I also wonder how they will stop people from ordering the GW kits they sell on Forge World's Website? I was thinking that would be a better and cheaper way to buy the kits like Chaos Landraiders. AU$110.00 as opposed to £45.00. Even with postage it it way cheaper to buy direct from Forgeworld.

@ LordGrise, I agree and I have stopped going to GW stores to buy my models. In fact as I have stated many times, they are too "sell sell sell" orientated, and when you try to enjoy the game, they spoil it for you. I buy only from my local gaming store where I can enjoy playing the game or online where it is cheaper. They are trying to ruin that for me now as well.

[Charistoph]

I was discussing this with a guy who used to play 40K, but now plays Warmahordes and Flames of War. He said that a company can not stop other companies from reselling their products online in Australia, and can not set the prices for their products when being sold at bricks and mortar stores that purchase their products and then sell them to the public. He mentioned price fixing and Monopolies.

After talking to him, I am of the understanding that GW are undertaking the illegal act of Price fixing, and forcing the market to be solely in their hands being sold at the prices they set, and making it so others can not trade/sell their products as a free market society dictates. I believe the U.S.A. has similar trade laws to those in Australia. Quite a few large companies including fuel/petrol companies and grocery supermarket chains have been penalised by the Australian Government for organising their dealers and stores to set the prices to their advantage to oust competitors. I would wonder whether the USA and Australian governments penalised GW for similar activities.

It certainly is a game make or break move, and if people in Australia and the USA do not stand up for themselves, by either looking for new gaming systems, or refusing to buy any more of GWs products (using another companies products to represent the relevant minis, then GW will carry on treating the consumers as Smeg and keep trodding all over us. I think I have bought my last GW miniature.

I wonder if they will stop places like E-Bay from letting people sell their old GW armies when they decide to sell up and go to another system that does not have too many random charts, and cinematic game rules that confuse the hell out of new player, and require FAQs to fix. I also wonder how they will stop people from ordering the GW kits they sell on Forge World's Website? I was thinking that would be a better and cheaper way to buy the kits like Chaos Landraiders. AU$110.00 as opposed to £45.00. Even with postage it it way cheaper to buy direct from Forgeworld.

@ LordGrise, I agree and I have stopped going to GW stores to buy my models. In fact as I have stated many times, they are too "sell sell sell" orientated, and when you try to enjoy the game, they spoil it for you. I buy only from my local gaming store where I can enjoy playing the game or online where it is cheaper. They are trying to ruin that for me now as well.

Price fixing? They are already the only known provider of the specific models and books (copyrighted products, after all). For all intents and purposes, they have a monopoly and can choose to whom they sell to as much as the 7-11 manager. You cannot force someone to sell to you.

If they don't like how you're reselling it, they just stop selling to you period, and there is jack all, legally, anyone can do about it. There are exceptions to this in the U.S., but it would have to be due to some sort of bigotry (race, gender, disability, etc) that the sellee would have to prove malicious intent on GW's part.

But hey, lawsuits have turned out results that were against the law, or where there is no law to begin with.

[Renegade]

I was discussing this with a guy who used to play 40K, but now plays Warmahordes and Flames of War. He said that a company can not stop other companies from reselling their products online in Australia, and can not set the prices for their products when being sold at bricks and mortar stores that purchase their products and then sell them to the public. He mentioned price fixing and Monopolies.

After talking to him, I am of the understanding that GW are undertaking the illegal act of Price fixing, and forcing the market to be solely in their hands being sold at the prices they set, and making it so others can not trade/sell their products as a free market society dictates. I believe the U.S.A. has similar trade laws to those in Australia. Quite a few large companies including fuel/petrol companies and grocery supermarket chains have been penalised by the Australian Government for organising their dealers and stores to set the prices to their advantage to oust competitors. I would wonder whether the USA and Australian governments penalised GW for similar activities.

It certainly is a game make or break move, and if people in Australia and the USA do not stand up for themselves, by either looking for new gaming systems, or refusing to buy any more of GWs products (using another companies products to represent the relevant minis, then GW will carry on treating the consumers as Smeg and keep trodding all over us. I think I have bought my last GW miniature.

I wonder if they will stop places like E-Bay from letting people sell their old GW armies when they decide to sell up and go to another system that does not have too many random charts, and cinematic game rules that confuse the hell out of new player, and require FAQs to fix. I also wonder how they will stop people from ordering the GW kits they sell on Forge World's Website? I was thinking that would be a better and cheaper way to buy the kits like Chaos Landraiders. AU$110.00 as opposed to £45.00. Even with postage it it way cheaper to buy direct from Forgeworld.


Forge World is part of Citadel... not sure that would sit with the company directors, but it is the same company making money. IMO, some of the actual FW kits are a better price considering the quality.

Not sure on where the law actually rest on the rest, GW are selling a product not a market.

I you know better, then why not see if the retailers are willing to take GW to court or mention it to your MP (or whatever the US equivalent is) and prove a point.

[Wolfshade]

I would make the observation that the hobby is tabletop wargaming and not 40k. Given that this disucssion is in Warhammer 40k General Discussion and not Wargames Corporate it would suggest that this is not a common view.

This is not a monopoly as there are other suppliers of table top wargaming. I would also observe that having a monopoly is not necessarily illegal. Indeed, given the readily available alternative table top wargames I would suggest that GW is not acting as a monopoly but it is a "natural monopoly", its pricing is not dissimiliar from other producers in the market for a similiar quality.

I would also observe that in the UK PWC did at one stage state that 95p in every £1 in the table top wargaming sector was spent with GW.

[Charistoph]

I would make the observation that the hobby is tabletop wargaming and not 40k. Given that this disucssion is in Warhammer 40k General Discussion and not Wargames Corporate it would suggest that this is not a common view.

This is not a monopoly as there are other suppliers of table top wargaming. I would also observe that having a monopoly is not necessarily illegal. Indeed, given the readily available alternative table top wargames I would suggest that GW is not acting as a monopoly but it is a "natural monopoly", its pricing is not dissimiliar from other producers in the market for a similiar quality.

I would also observe that in the UK PWC did at one stage state that 95p in every £1 in the table top wargaming sector was spent with GW.

All correct. When I said that they were a "monopoly", I meant that they were the sole providers of the specific models and books. But that's the way it should be with copyrighted material. So Price Fixing is redundant, really.

I wouldn't expect McDonald's to have the Whopper (though a very similar option may be had) or for Wendy's to start suing McDonald's for raising/lowering the price of their Big Macs or for not selling Wendy's Big Mac buns and secret sauce.

And if a local car dealership is starting to do something that the manufacturer doesn't like, it wouldn't surprise me to see the name of the Maker to come off that dealership sign since they will no longer get any brand new models.

[Mr Mystery]

Though it is worth noting that you still cannot set the price or ban discounts.

Online sales don't hurt GW as such, as they make the same profit on any given third party stockist. But as per others following up my earlier post, it can indirectly affect hobby recruitment, as the bricks and mortar indies simply cannot price match those who sell online only.


By all accounts running a successful indie is far from easy. As GW need the indie, this could be seen as an attempt to level the playing field, and support those who most support them.

I'm not making a judgement as to whether this is right or wrong, as it simply doesn't affect me, therefore for all the right reasons I don't care.

[pnkfld7892]

The three LGS I buy from have never had webstores or sold stuff off as bits or individual sprues, so this won't effect me personally. I'm interested in what will happen on the legal end of this. As far as I know a retailer can sell a product at any price, even a loss, if they want to and by any media, but I am no lawyer.

[scadugenga]

Price fixing? They are already the only known provider of the specific models and books (copyrighted products, after all). For all intents and purposes, they have a monopoly and can choose to whom they sell to as much as the 7-11 manager. You cannot force someone to sell to you.

If they don't like how you're reselling it, they just stop selling to you period, and there is jack all, legally, anyone can do about it. There are exceptions to this in the U.S., but it would have to be due to some sort of bigotry (race, gender, disability, etc) that the sellee would have to prove malicious intent on GW's part.

But hey, lawsuits have turned out results that were against the law, or where there is no law to begin with.

This is incorrect. There have been multiple cases where manufacturers have been fined for price fixing. Sharp, Best Buy, etc. GW is in troubled waters in the US if they keep this up.

[Mr Mystery]

Is this actually price fixing though? Are GW telling people exactly the price it's to be sold at? Are GW conspiring with another manufacturer to set a minimum war game price? Nope.

GW remain within their rights to refuse service. This is not say, supermarkets covertly agreeing a maximum price they will pay for milk. Or anything like the Libor scandal here in Britain.

This is just a curious move, served in an Internet hyperbole sauce.

[Caitsidhe]

It isn't price fixing. The policy is most certainly uncool and preordained to fail in the goal it was created to achieve. Price fixing is an entirely different ball of wax and requires collusion. What we have here is:

1. A extreme example of how to earn yourself bad press.
2. A quick way to make enemies of lots of companies who buy your product.
3. A textbook example of a "paper tiger" rule, i.e. impossible to enforce.

*I also happen to think it nothing more than a ploy to push up numbers dramatically by rushing certain companies into bulk purchases before a certain deadline and shore up what would not be good quarterly report numbers.

Let's consider the policy. Joe's Brick & Mortar business is but one of Joe's companies. He also owns "Cool Town" a Netstore which sells gaming stuff (including bits) both domestic and international. Nothing will stop Joe from....

1. Selling to himself at whatever price he wants, right over the counter. Such purchases don't have a paper trail beyond a receipt. There are no names. There is no way to follow up. More to the point, Games Workshop can't really demand to see what was sold to whom and for how much. To suggest this is hilarious since it would mean that all Independent shops have to ship their books to Games Workshop on demand.

2. Now that Joe owns these toys he just bought from his store (at cost most likely) he can then simply gift said assets or sell them again to his Netstore. The circle of life continues.

3. Those people or companies that don't own such a store will certainly be able to find one that will be "willing" to cut a deal.

How exactly is Games Workshop to enforce this rule? Are they going to pay people (cost and man hours) to fan out over the United States and go into shops trying to check for perfidy? If so, how will this work? Are they going to break in like Ninja to rifle the accounting records? Are they going to show up dressed like the MIB and flash Games Workshop badges and demand to be let in? :) Perhaps they will have these guys pretending to be Australians seeking to make purchases for shipping overseas. Think about the magnitude of cost and silly we are talking about here.

[Psychosplodge]

Is this actually price fixing though? Are GW telling people exactly the price it's to be sold at?

.



I believe they restrict how much you can discount to or stop supplying you,
At least I've been told this by an independent stockist I use for retro games

[Earl Harbinger]

I believe they restrict how much you can discount to or stop supplying you,
At least I've been told this by an independent stockist I use for retro games

That's how I interpret their new policy as well. However, even with that, GW can only stop supplying an affiliated store from doing it. If store X is in GW's distribution network and is also selling bits then GW can cut them off. If store X is just an online bits store that is created as a seperate business entity by a store that's in GW's distribution network than GW would have to investigate the bits store, prove that it's connected to an actual store in the distribution network and then stop selling to that store. That seems like a lot of work.

I've never understood GW's issue with online discounters. The online stores bought the kits from GW in the first place, it's not like they were stolen. Whether GW kits are sold at a discount in brick and mortar stores or by online discounters GW is still selling kits, hobbyists are buying kits, GW is making money. If GW doesn't want their kits to sold at discounted prices then they should just raise the wholesale price they charge for them so that stores in their distribution network can't afford to discount them. If GW was really concerned about the health and growth of the hobby then they should care about the volume of units they're selling regardless of whether they're sold by online or brick and mortar retailers.

GW's fretting over this reminds me of the issues with the resale market for things like concert/sports/events tickets. When I buy a concert ticket I pay face value for the ticket plus fees, taxes etc. If the show gets sold out and there's high demand for the tickets I can resell my ticket for 3x face value on the secondary market. Since the value of the ticket has gone up I get to pocket the profit I make from the resale but none of that extra value and profit gets passed on to the band, venue, promoter etc. This upsets the band, venue, promoter etc. because they're losing money to a certain extent but there's no way to alter the system because once the ticket is sold there's no way to control any longer.

[Caitsidhe]

An even funner can of worms Games Workshop has opened up here (and it will come up) is that apparently Games Workshop considers these Independents of paramount (or so they claim) importance for future growth and recruitment. Ok. If the independent stores (who sell OTHER product... not being Games Workshop stores) are doing this great favor for Games Workshop, how much are they getting paid? It sounds like Games Workshop itself is cutting back the number and size (and hours) of its stores everywhere. The stated purpose of these stores is to grow the brand, recruit, and so on. It appears very much like Games Workshop is cutting back their own overhead and costs, shifting recruitment and all that jazz in the United States on the Independents. If this is true, wouldn't the discount have to be even LARGER for these LGS than in the past when Games Workshop was doing a lot of this work to support the brand.

In short, Games Workshop isn't providing these gaming locations and all that goes into that. That overhead is footed by the LGS entirely. As a reward for that courtesy which helps Games Workshop FAR MORE than it does the LGS, they have now been told they cannot sell things the way they want to sell them, cannot sell overseas, and so on. So Games Workshop expects the LGS to absorb the costs, limit their profit options, or ELSE. :D Is that about right?

[Mr Mystery]

It's not terribly local if it's being sold internationally.

Last time around, when it was 'no bricks no models' it was at the behest of Indy stores that were being squeezed out by competitors that essentially grew from other people's hard work.

Imagine if you will, setting up your store, and doing your best to expand and retain your customer base. Then they stop buying from you because someone who doesn't offer facilities of any kind can sell 10% cheaper than you ever could. How much would that suck?

And I'm not saying this decision doesn't suck for anyone, clearly someone's just been given the poopy end of the stick. But there is a case for the right person having received it.

But again, doesn't affect me, so I have no real opinion on this.

[Caitsidhe]

It's not terribly local if it's being sold internationally.

This is the 21st Century. Everything is local. That is kind of the point of the internet.


Last time around, when it was 'no bricks no models' it was at the behest of Indy stores that were being squeezed out by competitors that essentially grew from other people's hard work.

I don't buy it was ever at their behest and certainly isn't at their behest this time. :D Couldn't the problem be solved by Games Workshop simply by giving actual brick and mortar locations (who are sacrificing with greater overhead to support and recruit for the hobby) an even LARGER discount? From the point of Games Workshop, selling wholesale to non-brick and mortar stores is no different than anybody else. Why would they want to LOWER their own sales? :D *This is why I don't buy their argument that they are doing this to defend those poor Independents. :D They could achieve the same goal by keeping wholesale prices the same for the net-presence only and give brick and mortar an even larger discount to reimburse them for their "giving back to the hobby."


Imagine if you will, setting up your store, and doing your best to expand and retain your customer base. Then they stop buying from you because someone who doesn't offer facilities of any kind can sell 10% cheaper than you ever could. How much would that suck?

The problem is that it doesn't work this way. In the United States there is a large amount of LGS loyalty. You pay where you play. Most people try to buy 1-2 things a month at their LGS that provides them tables, air conditioning, terrain, and so on. Even MORE to the point, independent stores in the US don't live or die by Games Workshop products. They tend to own a WIDE variety of product lines and support them all so no particular line failure puts them out of business. Most independents are moving toward (if they haven't already) having a Net presence also.


And I'm not saying this decision doesn't suck for anyone, clearly someone's just been given the poopy end of the stick. But there is a case for the right person having received it.

There is no case to be made because so far it hasn't happened at all. They have merely SAID it is going to happen mid June. That alone should send off alarm bells to cynics like me. Why not say it starts TOMORROW? :D The only reason to push it down the road is to try and get a rush of sales off the crass manipulation. This policy is a SALES STUNT and nothing more. Come June they will revise it, drop it, or simply leave it up and simply do nothing about it. They can say it all they want and never bother to try and enforce it (it isn't really possible anyway).


But again, doesn't affect me, so I have no real opinion on this.

I'm a blowhard that likes the sound of his own voice, so I have opinions on things whether they affect me or not. I also feel bad for people getting screwed even when they aren't myself.

[Mr Mystery]

You can offer a lower price to brick indies, but what if like many, they already have an online presence? Said savings are likely to be used to offer a large online discount, again hurting those without the savvy or indeed storage space to run their own website.

Could be a stunt as well, but I feel that's a bit too cynical for me.

My overall prediction? Interwebs will rage, and the world will continue to turn, GW will continue to make a profit.

[Caitsidhe]

You can offer a lower price to brick indies, but what if like many, they already have an online presence? Said savings are likely to be used to offer a large online discount, again hurting those without the savvy or indeed storage space to run their own website.

Exactly. I asked the question specifically so you would answer this. Now reverse it. See how impossible it is for Games Workshop to enforce either way? More to the point, why would Games Workshop even try? Let's say they actually create this secret police and accounting inquisition to fan out across the Americas and try to zing those who violate the policy. These people get cut off. What this amounts to is Games Workshop spends a LOT of money on enforcement that... if it works... reduces their sales. :)


Could be a stunt as well, but I feel that's a bit too cynical for me.

I am cynical and the fact that I locked on to the fact that it is a sales stunt (and it is) doesn't make the reasoning any less valid. Since Games Workshop doesn't profit by this policy in ANY WAY except by a short term sales boost, that is clearly all it is unless we want to assume they are stupid.


My overall prediction? Interwebs will rage, and the world will continue to turn, GW will continue to make a profit.

I agree for the most part. I'm not enraged. I find the whole thing funny as hell. I don't think the policy will do much of anything to the people who resell beyond annoy them. I don't think it will do much beyond annoy Games Workshop's customers either. Whether or not they keep making a profit remains to be seen. I think a gestalt of factors (and this policy would be only a minor one in it) is going to cut into their profits in a serious way.

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds quite easy to enforce. Just find the website and you're done!

Also quite puzzled as to why people feel this is something to do with CH, on account the whole issue there is that CH aren't selling GW stuff, just stuff made to resemble GW stuff? (Not meaning yourself, I've not seen you make that assertion on here)

[Caitsidhe]

Sounds quite easy to enforce. Just find the website and you're done!

Ummm? How does this do you any good? You find the website and say "tell me where you got your product!" They say, "get stuffed." :) If the website is not buying its goods through Games Workshop, i.e. it gets it through someone at a brick and mortar at wholesale via some kind of inside connection, finding the website is pointless (unless you want to order from them).


Also quite puzzled as to why people feel this is something to do with CH, on account the whole issue there is that CH aren't selling GW stuff, just stuff made to resemble GW stuff? (Not meaning yourself, I've not seen you make that assertion on here)

I've made the assertion that IF (and only if) Games Workshop is able to cut down on bits sales of their own parts, it would just send more people to companies that make compatible bits. In other words, Games Workshop would just be juicing up that other market more by their actions.

[Mr Mystery]

I kind of follow.

I do wonder how the CH thing is going. Thread in News has been quiet of late, barring the Bob Olley transcription thingy.

[scadugenga]

Is this actually price fixing though? Are GW telling people exactly the price it's to be sold at? Are GW conspiring with another manufacturer to set a minimum war game price? Nope.

GW remain within their rights to refuse service. This is not say, supermarkets covertly agreeing a maximum price they will pay for milk. Or anything like the Libor scandal here in Britain.

This is just a curious move, served in an Internet hyperbole sauce.

It's called "Vertical Price Fixing" and falls under the auspices of the Sherman Act (1890) and Clayton act (1914).

What Sharp, LG and CPT did was "Horizontal Price Fixing," and is different than what GW is doing, though the impact is identical if they are found guilty: treble damages plus court/atty fees. It cost Sharp, LG and CPT $585 Million.

While the Courts have started to say that Vertical Price Fixing is not a per se violation of the antitrust acts, it is now determined on a more individual basis.

[Mr Mystery]

Price fixing, a tango for two.

Required supplier and vendor to conspire.

So how is that at all relevant to GW choosing to limit who they supply to?

[scadugenga]

Price fixing, a tango for two.

Required supplier and vendor to conspire.

So how is that at all relevant to GW choosing to limit who they supply to?

Horizontal Price Fixing is a two (or more) party collusion. EG: the Sharp, LG, CPT case I referenced earlier.

But that's only the tip of what price fixing is. If you want to remain ignorant of the scope of the law, that's fine, but it only further weakens any argument you may make.

Vertical Price Fixing is what a manufacturer does when they attempt to manipulate the marketplace unfairly to their advantage by trying to limit availability of purchase, discounts, price-setting, etc.

If you fail to see, understand, research or otherwise approach the issue with a grasp of the subject, then you're either just trolling, or you have your head fully stuck in the sands of denial, ostrich-style.

[Wolfshade]

The only thing that GW could be accused of is trying to enforce a minimum price for other distributors, that is against England and Wales competition law, however under certain circumstances it is perfectly legal, GW cannot sell their items below production cost as it is again against competition law, therefore they can force a minimum price.
The 3rd party sales must be at least GWs cost otherwise they would fall foul of the same issue and arguably slightly higher in order to cover their own costs also.

[daboarder]

Aside from the questionable legality of this move, I think this is going to backfire on GW substantially. Their sales figures are already tanking (last year was the first time they have held in 4 years), whats likely to happen to them if the american online stores literally stop stocking their product?

Not to mention enforcing this is going to be a ***** for them.

[Mr Mystery]

Horizontal Price Fixing is a two (or more) party collusion. EG: the Sharp, LG, CPT case I referenced earlier.

But that's only the tip of what price fixing is. If you want to remain ignorant of the scope of the law, that's fine, but it only further weakens any argument you may make.

Vertical Price Fixing is what a manufacturer does when they attempt to manipulate the marketplace unfairly to their advantage by trying to limit availability of purchase, discounts, price-setting, etc.

If you fail to see, understand, research or otherwise approach the issue with a grasp of the subject, then you're either just trolling, or you have your head fully stuck in the sands of denial, ostrich-style.

Still takes two, even with vertical. Supplier and vendor agree that the retail price will be x, regardless of cost of supply. So again, who is exactly is GW colluding with here?

[scadugenga]

Still takes two, even with vertical. Supplier and vendor agree that the retail price will be x, regardless of cost of supply. So again, who is exactly is GW colluding with here?

When vertical, the supplier doesn't get a choice. It's usually the supplier (when dealing with things in civil court) that files suit under the anti trust accts. if they are pursued criminally, it's the gov that charges the manufacturer.

[Wolfshade]

There are also three other things to consider that I think you are over looking scadugenga.
Firstly, the hobby is tabletop wargaming and GW has not to my knowledge formed a cartel to push all wargaming prices up, remember 40k is not the hobby, tabletop wargaming is.
Secondly, the price of the object maybe an intrisnic part of the product, lest we forget Levi banned Tesco from selling their jeans at half the RRP because "the effects on its brand of the cost cuts, and of the sale of its clothes in supermarkets".
Thirdly, banning people from selling bitz has precedence all over the place. As previously mentioned there are the concerns that any injury from misuse of the product would leave GW culpable (at least in part), and also, GW produce their product and have a right to determine how it is displayed/sold, in the same way that you cannot re-sell individual packs of crisps from a multi-pack, or cans of coke

[Renegade]

I don't think that the Sherman Act (1890) and Clayton act (1914) are going to be enforceable in this instance.

GW is a UK Plc, so can simply wind down its US side and flip the US courts the two finger salute. Of course it also depends on whether the retailers are contractually bound to UK (English) law, as I know a few big companies do, so recourse under US law would be breach of contract.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think that the Sherman Act (1890) and Clayton act (1914) are going to be enforceable in this instance.

Probably not but while interesting this is irrelevant anyway. I'll explain why below:


GW is a UK Plc, so can simply wind down its US side and flip the US courts the two finger salute. Of course it also depends on whether the retailers are contractually bound to UK (English) law, as I know a few big companies do, so recourse under US law would be breach of contract.

A significant part of Games Workshop's market is located in the United States. I suspect they could give the whole U.S. market the two-fingered salute but I wouldn't expect them to survive. The problem is you are talking about this issue as if American independents are going to try to sue Games Workshop. They won't. They will continue to function as they did before and just bypass the policy. All the weight and cost of trying to enforce this is going to go on the shoulders of Games Workshop. Good luck with that. :) Why would anyone bother to sue Games Workshop over something they can simply ignore or go around?

[Defenestratus]

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/03/games-workshop-is-about-to-jump-into.html

Looks like there's fire to the smoke perhaps.

[Daemonette666]

A mate of mine who has 3 or more businesses, but does not own anything to do with miniature wargaming, said that GW could not enforce it, and there was an easy way around it. if you own a bricks and mortar shop, and you own an online store, you need not create a paper trail, just sell the stock AT COST to your online company which is a separate company from the bricks and mortar store. GW can not force you to show your sales records detailing who was sold the items and for how much.

He also said there was another way around it. You have a lot of 30% off sales. Mark the recommended online retail price as the ammount GW set it at, and then for reasons like stock building up, warehouse clearance to save costs, etc, you have a sale. If you combine this with the previous way around it using 2 companies and selling stock to the other at whole sale price, then it should work around the GW price fixing scheme.

[Kawauso]

The more I hear about this whole ordeal the crappier things sound.

I've always grudgingly accepted many of the things GW does because I really, really love their products even if the company pulls a lot of stupid stunts. This one though...this could be 'it' for me.
I mean, I'm not going to get out of the hobby because I've invested far too much in it already and I still get enjoyment out of it. But at this point I think it's safe to say that I'm going to be cutting back my spending on GW products pretty drastically.

I think I'm going to take a nice long break from buying any new models and focus on assembling/painting what I have now (which, spread across ~9 armies, is quite a bit). Maybe if I start saving up the money that I normally reserved for plastic crack I'll be able to save up for a fursuit or some other pricey luxury item I've been holding off on for a while. :P

I'm still awaiting some sort of response from a number of businesses in regard to this whole debacle, though. In particular I'm interested in whatever MiniWarGaming will have to say...

[Mr. Furious]

From the e-figures main page:

http://www.e-figures.com/PDF/PDF-GamesWorkshop/Games_Workshop_2013_RETAILER_POLICY.pdf

http://www.e-figures.com/PDF/PDF-GamesWorkshop/GW_2013_Distributor_Policy.pdf

[Deadlift]

I suppose in some way though this will actually help some bricks and mortar stores out. It's not an issue here in the UK but I have lost count of how many times I have been in my local model shop where someone has walked in looked at the boxes of GW products decided what to buy and then gone home and ordered from Wayland. I have a friend who regulaly does it. That's fine, that's competition but some of the smaller bricks and mortar stores can't compete with those online prices. I like supporting my local model shop, I could get it cheaper but I know and like the owners.

[Wolfshade]

Reading those articles GW is sending a clear message.

The future of the hobby lies with physical buildings as these bring in new players, in ways that online stores do not. It also goes some way to acknowledge that brick and mortar stores bare higher costs and often do services around the periphery the value of which may not be directly reflected in increased sales, after all consider how many taster sessions are played compared with the number of new hobbyists.

My local GW for instance has a series of games and a teaching sessions designed to take people from picking up the game right through to being a fully fledged player. These hours put in by the staff are not "sales hours", indeed if we just loook at an economic model, the staff's time is better served operating the till as confirmed hobbyists wander in, pick up the item and leave.

There are other ways that GW could have organised this to minimise the cost discrepancy between e-sellers and brick-sellers, none of them would have been popular either.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. As came up earlier, you should pay where you play. Mind you that falls down a bit if you don't have a local store.

One thing I have often noticed online is those who bemoan the closing of an Indy (never good news lets face it) have, more often than not (though anecdotal evidence is anecdotal) advised people to buy online because its so much cheaper.

Overall. I see what GW are trying to achieve. Them running stores in the US hasn't worked out as it did in Europe (certainly the UK. Total market dominance). So with this, they are attempting to dominate the Indy stores, by stating how their product should be displayed (common practice, or had you utterly missed in store branding for big names?) and are in essence attempting to reserve the local market for the local provider.

It's not price fixing in the least. Nothing in that statement relates to it. Indies can still sell at whatever markup they so desire. But hey, doesn't sound as outright 'they are cooking the books and breaking the law' so feel free to keep on frothing.

[Kawauso]

Supporting physical stores is all well and good if, you know, there actually are some nearby. =/

In North America - and Canada especially - there are vast expanses of land with nary a game store in sight.

[Caitsidhe]

Indeed. As came up earlier, you should pay where you play. Mind you that falls down a bit if you don't have a local store.

Yes it certainly would. It would mean you pay more under this system if forced to buy only from Games Workshop. This seems a bit of a discourtesy, but since the policy is not enforceable, the point is moot. People will still be able to buy whatever they want over the internet and at the same reductions in costs. It is the nature of the beast. Once a market exists, it is almost impossible to destroy. This is a basic economic truth. Attempts to do so, for various reasons, only seem to spur it further.


One thing I have often noticed online is those who bemoan the closing of an Indy (never good news lets face it) have, more often than not (though anecdotal evidence is anecdotal) advised people to buy online because its so much cheaper.

Independents in the United States do close from time to time, but it generally isn't online purchases that kill them. The United States has varied tastes and the game stores that survive (and thrive) do so by carrying a very wide product line. They rely on diversity. Games Workshop never understood this fact which is why they have suffered horribly with their stores on our side of the pond. Well, in fairness, that is one reason. The others involve the very different expectations of what a game shop is supposed to provide. Americans are much more demanding and tend to feel they have the upper hand (they do) when dealing with merchants. In short, if you don't give me what I want there are a thousand more just like you.

Successful game shops in the United States tend to have several common traits:

1. Diversity of product line (often including comics, and indirect game material).
2. Large amounts of gaming space and support (which engenders a club mentality).
3. Online support and ordering
4. Regular sales and promotional events

I can only assume (from what I've seen of Games Workshop stores) that these elements are mostly not part of their marketing structure. In short, Games Workshop keeps trying to market to Americans as if we are Europeans. It is idiotic.


Overall. I see what GW are trying to achieve. Them running stores in the US hasn't worked out as it did in Europe (certainly the UK. Total market dominance). So with this, they are attempting to dominate the Indy stores, by stating how their product should be displayed (common practice, or had you utterly missed in store branding for big names?) and are in essence attempting to reserve the local market for the local provider.

I agree with you here. Games Workshop has been an abysmal failure in the United States with its own stores. They are nothing but money pits. They have, at least, now recognized that their marketing strategy doesn't work over here. Unfortunately, instead of adopting the tactics and customs of their competitors, they have decided that will try to use and abuse the local stores as their sales proxies. They continue to see themselves AS THE HOBBY rather than part of it. It is arrogant and it is going to cost them. Games Workshop is half way to a solution. They figured out they were not achieving their goals, that their methods were failing. Now they need to get the other half of the way by choosing methods that work. Why they simply refuse to take commonsense steps which will cost them less and are proven to be more effective is beyond anyone's guess but their own.


It's not price fixing in the least. Nothing in that statement relates to it. Indies can still sell at whatever markup they so desire. But hey, doesn't sound as outright 'they are cooking the books and breaking the law' so feel free to keep on frothing.

I've stated before that they are not "price fixing" nor is anything Games Workshop is currently attempting illegal. It is stupid and short-sighted, but not a crime. What they SHOULD be doing if they are being honest (and I don't think they are) about carrying about brick and mortar companies, is to offer them an even better than wholesale price as part of a limited franchise contract which is legally binding, i.e. a kind of good faith agreement that makes it not only easier for local stores to compete, but encourages their growth. Consider money better spent on trying to grow the hobby that pouring down the hole with ghost town Games Workshop stores in the States. :) These limited franchise contracts would require certain exchange of records and so on, to help ensure honesty, as well as legal recourse which would make funneling product not worth the risk, particularly when they are enjoying the greater price reduction. Some would take it. Some would not.

Would my suggestion be iron clad? No. There are still ways around it (there always are) but the carrot is always more successful than the stick in this situation. The truth is the age of the internet is here. Games Workshop is going to have to accept that the market structure they had and want no longer exists. They have competition now. It is only going to grow. That is the way of things. The only way (historically speaking) they are going to retain dominance is by slashing their prices and selling bulk. I'm not Yoda. I'm not a prophet. I don't claim to have divine insight. I merely have the benefit of HISTORY and can learn from it. The hobby is no longer niche, nor the technology to produce the materials exclusionary. The world has moved on since then. They can either move with it, or perhaps they will soon reach their clearing at the end of the path.

[Defenestratus]

Supporting physical stores is all well and good if, you know, there actually are some nearby. =/

In North America - and Canada especially - there are vast expanses of land with nary a game store in sight.

In my area's case, we had too many LGS's. There were like 7 or something in the immediate Orlando area. That has come down a bit but for whatever reason, GW decided that they needed to put a store in the busiest damn mall in the whole state to add to the fun.

I'm an LGS' owners best friend. I will buy kits on impulse and I demand instantaneous gratification - meaning I'll spend that extra $10 to walk out the door with my new model instead of ordering it online.

My shop owner is actually not very shy about shaming people who come to the store to play and don't buy their models there. He's driving away a couple of kids who habitually "proxy" paper land raiders and things like that, then the next week will show up with an armored spearhead of 3 of the things.

Yeah that guy doesn't come around very often anymore. He was kind of annoying anyways.

[daboarder]

Indeed. As came up earlier, you should pay where you play. Mind you that falls down a bit if you don't have a local store.

HAHAHA oh man, clearly you've never been in a situation where your charged double just because of a thirty year old dollar evaluation. They have every right to charge what they think is fair, I have every right to buy where I want at the lowest cost.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed not. But then I've never accused GW of humping indies, whilst resolutely refusing to buy from them. Not saying you have though. Just pointing out the lack of hypocrisy in my own statement.

[Wolfshade]

Supporting physical stores is all well and good if, you know, there actually are some nearby. =/

In North America - and Canada especially - there are vast expanses of land with nary a game store in sight.

From reading it there doesn't seem to be anything from stopping you buying online from a brick and mortar's wesbite...


HAHAHA oh man, clearly you've never been in a situation where your charged double just because of a thirty year old dollar evaluation. They have every right to charge what they think is fair, I have every right to buy where I want at the lowest cost.

I think the supplier has every right to choose to which companies they do business with.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the supplier has every right to choose to which companies they do business with.

Of course they do. We retain the right to refuse service to anyone. :) Of course it is a double-edged sword since every person they refuse to sell to at the same wholesale rate is a LOST sale. Their forlorn hope (if they actually tried to enforce this policy or clamp down even harder) is that the brick and mortar locations and their own online sales direct from them would somehow replace the lost sales of those they deny. That is one HELL of a gamble, since they would be (in effect) cutting off more than 50% of their distribution system and trying to reroute it. Good luck with that.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. Way I read it, GW will be the sole online provider.

[Wolfshade]

I agree it is a huge gamble, the question is are people going to stop playing just because their price has increase 20%?

I think given the historic price rises that GW has enforced on us, that most people are still willing to pay the RRP.

[Caitsidhe]

I dunno. Way I read it, GW will be the sole online provider.

That is their hope. :) I think it is deluded. As long there are brick and mortar places able to get the product wholesale, there will be sources for online product that Games Workshop CAN'T shut down. :D They will never be able to enforce their policy because there is no way to get access to people's records. They would have to start cutting off the hand that feeds them and hope that people would be willing to by ONLY from them. That is the chicken and egg problem. To cut off the online distributors besides themselves means cutting off all wholesale sales. That is the problem. The Supreme Court just STRONGLY reaffirmed the right of 1st Purchase (in a case involving textbooks) so once Games Workshop sells it, they have no say in what is done with it.

[Psychosplodge]

I think given the historic price rises that GW has enforced on us, that most people are still willing to pay the RRP.

Don't the court case documents show number of sales is actually down though value is up?

[Lexington]

Y'know, I've lived in two cities in the past year, both of which were home to thriving gaming communities that needed no help getting people into the hobby. In the last few month, GW's put stores in both of them. If they're really so concerned about the welfare of the independent gaming store, they've got a funny way of showing it.

[Defenestratus]

MWG Closing due to retailer policy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA&feature=share

[Caitsidhe]

Y'know, I've lived in two cities in the past year, both of which were home to thriving gaming communities that needed no help getting people into the hobby. In the last few month, GW's put stores in both of them. If they're really so concerned about the welfare of the independent gaming store, they've got a funny way of showing it.

Word. ;D

[Deadlift]

MWG Closing due to retailer policy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnPpfs120DA&feature=share

MWG STORE is shutting down. There fixed it for you :). The fabulous website will keep going and I just signed up for vault membership. Also Def as Matthew says in the video, they are not closing the store just because of this new policy, it was the nail in the coffin for sure but not the only contributing factor.

[Defenestratus]

MWG STORE is shutting down. There fixed it for you :). The fabulous website will keep going and I just signed up for vault membership. Also Def as Matthew says in the video, they are not closing the store just because of this new policy, it was the nail in the coffin for sure but not the only contributing factor.

He said that they would have not have closed had it not been for this policy as well.

[Deadlift]

He said that they would have not have closed had it not been for this policy as well.

But he also said it wasn't the only contributing factor, dude if your going to quote someone then do it in full context :) at around 50 seconds into the video he says " it's not completely games workshops fault"

[gcsmith]

He said that they would have not have closed had it not been for this policy as well.

Actually, they said how they would be waiting for this moment and hoped "it would come in a year". They were clearly planning this, but GW pushed it forwards. Besides they are still stocking magnets and that dark game.

[Defenestratus]

But he also said it wasn't the only contributing factor, dude if your going to quote someone then do it in full context :) at around 50 seconds into the video he says " it's not completely games workshops fault"

I stand by my statement - MWG is closing their store right now because of the GW policy according to his own words.

[Deadlift]

I stand by my statement - MWG is closing their store right now because of the GW policy according to his own words.

Then I must have been watching a different video ;)

[Gotthammer]

I think Def is focusing on the "right now" part of their statement, rather than the inevitability of their closing or not.

[Aegis]

For anyone who shopped at the physical MWG store, it was clear to see the majority of their business existed online (myself included). They also did more to promote the hobby in Southern Ontario than virtually any other gaming club in the area. However, I will give some props to the new(ish) staff at the GW in Toronto, as I do find they are fairly active in promoting the hobby and not just selling.

I just hope MWG still runs their Apocalypticon event, as it is an event I have looked forward to every year since the first.

[Daemonette666]

From what I read, GW is making it so that in the United States and Canada they will only sell to bricks and mortar stores. These have to maintain $500.00 in stock and adhere to their recommended retail prices. These stores are not allowed to sell to other stores, just consumers, and GW have made it so they can enter your store unannounced and demand to see your paper work and sales records with the threat of terminating your sales contract.

If you own a bricks and mortar shop, you are not allowed to sell any of the GW products online, and GW is the only company who will be able to sell their products online. Also Bricks and mortar stores are prohibited from selling to overseas countries. This means you could not even email a company in the USA, pay for goods, and have them shipped. GW seems to have stopped all means of having anyone from underselling them, and they have made it impossible for people who live in remote locations like outback Australia from purchasing their products, except at their highly inflated prices.

I think this is the thing that will make people who were still loyal to GW and the Warhammer Fantasy/ Warhammer 40k gaming system, who cut down their spending because of GWs high prices, turn to other gaming systems and stop buying any more GW armies, books or models. It might even make them get out of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K and sell off their armies all together.

I know I have decided to not buy any GW models even from my local gaming store because of GWs policy. I am looking to use miniatures from other manufacturers to fill the same role. Anvil Industries, Chapterhouse, Puppet Wars, Kromlech and Dreamforge look to be getting all my money for 40K scale models from now on. I will still play the game, and even borrow other peoples codexes to learn their armies and rules for them, but I do ot even see the need to buy new codexes if I can help it.

I have invested more and more money into Dystopian wars, Drop Zone Commander, Star Wars X-Wing Fighter, Wings of War WW I, and possibly soon Bolt Action WW II squad based miniature game.

I can not see how GW will be able to get new blood into the market, especially with the highly inflated prices, and with them closing down so many of their stores, with many of those remaining not having regular gaming tables. The local gaming stores will not be able to keep the levels of stock, or be able to make enough profit to maintain GW games, and they will be forced to drop the GW gaming system from their shelves, and move into more profitable gaming systems. I know some will disagree with me, but that is my opinion.

[Renegade]

Anything stopping people getting the same discounts, but going through stores in the UK or other non-American?

[Daemonette666]

The Miniature Wargaming You tube video about their decision to close down because of GW media release about banning online sales in Canada and the USA, mentions that Europe, and the UK already have policies in place restricting them from selling outside their country. They were already hit by GWs - we want all the profits for ourselves, before we P**s everyone off and finally go bust and our business fails, but our MD will get his bonuses before he leaves - Policy.

[Wolfshade]

Quick lets all play AT-43...

[Renegade]

The Miniature Wargaming You tube video about their decision to close down because of GW media release about banning online sales in Canada and the USA, mentions that Europe, and the UK already have policies in place restricting them from selling outside their country. They were already hit by GWs - we want all the profits for ourselves, before we P**s everyone off and finally go bust and our business fails, but our MD will get his bonuses before he leaves - Policy.

Not seen in the shipping policies of those online sites that I use, in fact they state that they do ship to US and Oz. The media release states that GW policies cannot be enforced in the EU or UK, due to competition rules.

[robrodgers46]

I wonder if this includes Amazon.com?

[Mr Mystery]

The Miniature Wargaming You tube video about their decision to close down because of GW media release about banning online sales in Canada and the USA, mentions that Europe, and the UK already have policies in place restricting them from selling outside their country. They were already hit by GWs - we want all the profits for ourselves, before we P**s everyone off and finally go bust and our business fails, but our MD will get his bonuses before he leaves - Policy.

Keep all the profit for themselves? Huh? GW don't take a percentage of the sale value. They sell at the same cost irrespective of the mark up set by a third party? Therefore your statement has a bit of a gap in its logic.

[Gotthammer]

Well... if GW sells a kit to a retailer at half RRP, they make half the money they would if they sell it themselves at full RRP - all the profits from the sale (retail + wholesale), not just the wholesale.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm of the firm opinion, based on all my time listening to people post, that there is a segment of the population here that would find a way to say "that makes perfect sense" no matter what Games Workshop says. Games Workshop could say that you must stab yourself in the hand with a fork just hard enough to make it bleed to prove your devotion with every purchase (waived for purchases over 100.00), and people would say, "Well duh. They have to make profit. Are you a Communist? I'm willing to do it I don't know why you wont'." :)

They strike me as the same kind of people interviewed over here in the States that said, "Why of course I'd let my kids stay over at Michael Jackson's house." This being after all the messy revelations.

[gcsmith]

I'm of the firm opinion, based on all my time listening to people post, that there is a segment of the population here that would find a way to say "that makes perfect sense" no matter what Games Workshop says. Games Workshop could say that you must stab yourself in the hand with a fork just hard enough to make it bleed to prove your devotion with every purchase (waived for purchases over 100.00), and people would say, "Well duh. They have to make profit. Are you a Communist? I'm willing to do it I don't know why you wont'." :)

They strike me as the same kind of people interviewed over here in the States that said, "Why of course I'd let my kids stay over at Michael Jackson's house." This being after all the messy revelations.

Wow, comparing people who can actually see how this might just benefit LGS' which have been hurt by online sales to parents who let their children stay with a accused and aquited Pedophile...

The thing is, online sales are hurting LGS' which focus on Wargaming. Sure you have a lot which survive on card gaming, but not all of them. Some out there are just into wargaming which get's seriously hurt by online sales. Do I think this is the best solution? No. Do I think this might cost them more in the long run? Yes, quite possibly. But, if their stated intentions of helping small gaming shops who do loads to promote the hobby, are true. Then at least they are trying to help.

[Caitsidhe]

Wow, comparing people who can actually see how this might just benefit LGS' which have been hurt by online sales to parents who let their children stay with a accused and aquited Pedophile...

Get a sense of humor. Hyperbole utilized as I did is something we like to call a joke. Even so, nothing about the new policy is proven to help LGS. That is what Games Workshop says. Most of the people who own and operate Games Stores have said, "we didn't ask for this and we don't want it." It is convenient how many people seem to forget that most brick and mortar ALSO have a web presence.


The thing is, online sales are hurting LGS' which focus on Wargaming. Sure you have a lot which survive on card gaming, but not all of them. Some out there are just into wargaming which get's seriously hurt by online sales. Do I think this is the best solution? No. Do I think this might cost them more in the long run? Yes, quite possibly. But, if their stated intentions of helping small gaming shops who do loads to promote the hobby, are true. Then at least they are trying to help.

Let me be blunt. I don't BELIEVE their stated intention. I think they are lying. I think their actual purpose is crystal clear. They aren't even that subtle, hence the joke. What do you expect Games Workshop to say when they drop something like this on people? Of course they are going to say they are only doing this to protect those poor, put upon independent LGS. Their cup brims over with charity, you know... that same charity that caused them to plop down a Games Workshop store in convenient locations in the United States somewhat near the most successful LGS. Did they have their best interest at heart there too?

I've made my observations and predictions. I'll stand by them and eat crow if I'm wrong. I'm waiting for the OTHER shoe to drop and that won't happen until about three months after said policy supposedly goes into effect.

[gcsmith]

Yes, lets not have official stores in areas where sales are high.... That's business. And sure they are trying to make money here, but this policy will protect a few Indy retailers.

[daboarder]

Yes, lets not have official stores in areas where sales are high.... That's business. And sure they are trying to make money here, but this policy will protect a few Indy retailers.

I think you missed half the new policy.

Specifically the new limitations that FLGS's are now required to always maintain a high stock level of new GW products, and that they are only allowed to order up to $500 of product from the direct order section, a month. A section made up of 1800 items, that at least one store MWG has stated would cripple their business.

THIS IS BAD FOR FLGS's!

but lets all get on the GW lovetrain.

[gcsmith]

I think you missed half the new policy.

Specifically the new limitations that FLGS's are now required to always maintain a high stock level of new GW products, and that they are only allowed to order up to $500 of product from the direct order section, a month. A section made up of 1800 items, that at least one store MWG has stated would cripple their business.

THIS IS BAD FOR FLGS's!

but lets all get on the GW lovetrain.

They already had to stock high amounts of stock.

[daboarder]

They already had to stock high amounts of stock.

Not that high.

[Necron2.0]

I think I may go down to my LGS tomorrow and see if my local dealer might want to enter into an agreement whereby I sell GW products for him to customers outside my "trade region" via my private, non-official and completely unaffiliated on-line store fronts. After all, they may be able to intimidate my LGS, but they can't stop me from doing crap - US law is on my side. Recent US case law stipulates that once someone buys a product, they can resell it where ever and whenever they want, and copyright no longer applies.

[Psychosplodge]

$500 dollars of stock doesn't sound a lot really even at trade when you look at the cost of goods. How much do you think a rack of paints is? Just a good selection of SM boxsets without xenos could easily meet it, and this is without even looking at WH...

[Mr Mystery]

$500 of stock...

Surely couple of each starter set, and paint sets to match and you're pretty much there? Boxed sets alone, going on my aforementioned 60% of rrp supply cost? Thats $387.64 for two of each. Not exactly a massive amount of room requires for that, is there?

GW make the most money from direct sales, as in customers buying from their website. Next up? Indy sales. They take their 60% of rrp and run. And in a distant 3rd, selling through their own stores. I believe the breakdown in terms of where their money comes from can be found on their investor relations page. Why not have a peek yourself? If I'm right in thinking, it also shows the percentages split amongst the sales methods. Useful information is useful....

[lobster-overlord]

Doesn't the 500 stock level reference buying "direct" items not main trade items? Thus, if the item is listed as a Direct only item, which partner stores have access too, it's only limiting how much of those items (non main line items that you cannot get through a regular distributor). THings like collectors minis, special editions, and items of limited stock.

Main kits, like DV, or battle forces, don't count towards that number. Stuff like ordering bits packs for crimson fists, ordering the LR crusader upgrade sprue, those types of things count towards that number (and a lot of finecast). On the gw site, those are items marked with a special icon, and if you went to a non-gw partner store, they couldn't order them from Alliance, ACD and the like.

Don't get to two types of ordering a trade account can do mixed up.

[Psychosplodge]

wasn't there a minimum stock level and a maximum direct order level?

[Defenestratus]

Recent US case law stipulates that once someone buys a product, they can resell it where ever and whenever they want, and copyright no longer applies.


Yes the Thailand Textbook reseller case. I saw that and thought it might be relevant to our conversation here, but it is a bit different.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out the obvious. Games Workshop doesn't give a fig for the LGS. This policy has nothing to do with them. This policy is due to the dismal performance of their Games Workshop Stores in the United States (and one presumes Canada). They mismanaged them and have been bleeding money. Heads normally should (and would) roll for such a situation, but excuses were made. "It isn't our fault the stores cannot even break even. Everyone is buying online! If you cut out that online buying the stores would break even or even turn a profit. The stores MATTER. They recruit. It wasn't a stupid idea at all to put them in the United States and run them like we do our European stores." I can almost put myself in that board room.

The problem is that the successful LGS (and there are many) don't seem to be having this problem. This is because the American LGS at least, is diversified and doesn't pull all its money from Games Workshop products. The local LGS heavily supports gaming and has a lot of "pay where you play" loyalty, i.e. people treat the store as the local club. This was never about the local LGS, unless you define it ONLY as the Games Workshop Store.

The problem for Games Workshop is that it was never the online sales that killed them. They will continue to bleed money because they aren't fixing the ACTUAL problem. American game culture is different. They expect (and require) support in the form of lots of gaming space, diversity options, regular events, and a place to just hang out. Americans prefer the "soft sell" because we have the power. Unreasonable as that may sound, that is the culture. Games Workshop Stores are operated on the exact opposite premise. They are small, have limited hours, are not setup for club gaming, and have a severe focus on the "hard sell." Last but not least Games Workshop continues to operate on the deluded notion that American gamers are kids who grow up, get nostalgic, and introduce their kids to the games they played. Kids are a tiny minority of players here (and always will be). Games Workshop keeps trying to setup to sell to a market that isn't here.

I've said it before but I want to be very plain and direct here. Games Workshop's new policy isn't about the LGS, beyond their OWN LGS. Accept it. Embrace it. Understand that the next shoe to drop will be that Games Workshop Shops, when they continue to tank, will start using discounts and offers that the local LGS cannot do base on their sales contract. Look for this in about six months+.

[Wolfshade]

I think Caitsidhe raises a very important point.

The American GW stores were carbon copies of the very sucessful UK (and possibly EU) versions. Indeed, how often do we see Euro & Japan stores on the GW Blog compared with the US.

Apparently, this model does not work terribly well, and it is harder than most people think to import a sucessful British store to the US, one only has to look at Tesco's fiasco to see that this patently obvious.

Perhaps if GW are to be sucessful they need to look at these sucessful LGS stores and see what makes them work.
Is it the:

Staff
Location
Range


Perhaps to be sucessful in the US they need to have diverse stores rather than a monocompany store?

A lot of the UK stores do offer what Caitsidhe mentions, the space, regular events, somewhere to hang out so I wonder what the problem is.

[Caitsidhe]

A lot of the UK stores do offer what Caitsidhe mentions, the space, regular events, somewhere to hang out so I wonder what the problem is.

I'm not sure. If you have some like that over there, they SHOULD be doing that 100% of the time here. Every Games Workshop Store I've been to in the U.S are tiny and have two tables (at most) setup for demos. They are not setup for people to hang out, chat, play games (any games), and the focus is on the hard sell. Please bear in mind, the Staff at Games Workshop Stores have always been friendly and helpful, but their job description is to sell you the same way a car salesman is supposed to hit you when you walk on the lot. Americans don't like it. I know that is a generalization but it is pretty accurate.

Dragonslair and Alien Worlds are the two most successful LGS in San Antonio (Dragonslair is alos in Austin). When you walk in the door you are greet with a panorama of product of every description. There are comics, videos, games of every make and form, and GAMING TABLES and ROOMS setup for you to play on. People play a LOT of their games (some all) at their LGS. They are in there for hours and hours. I find that on a gaming day I'm in there for 6-10 hours at a stretch, impulse buying, getting soda, snacks, and talking about games. I'm watching people play other games I haven't played. I'm trying things out. It is Disneyland in a box. The American LGS is based on getting you in the door to use their facilities to play so you will BUY. They build up a huge degree of consumer loyalty.

[Wolfshade]

There was a stage when the GW stores were moved from large stores to smaller 1 man stores and they pushed the sell rather than the hobby, but I think that that has been reversed with many places are now becoming the older style larger stores.

My local GW store has 1 intro table of 40k, WFB & The Hobbit (formerly LoTR) and 2 other tables along with a paint station.

On Saturdays the place is jumping, doubly so if they have an event on. Every Sunday is their beginers day so that if you are new to the hobby you can learn to play/paint then you can graduate to the evening gaming.

Compare that to my local games tore that isn't a GW brand, then it doesn't have a table, and I've only seen people in their buying things. Don't get me wrong, the guy who runs it is perfectly friendly and you can chat to him about painting, but he doesn't play and the focus is not on wargaming but on remote control cars.

[Caitsidhe]

There was a stage when the GW stores were moved from large stores to smaller 1 man stores and they pushed the sell rather than the hobby, but I think that that has been reversed with many places are now becoming the older style larger stores.

Dragsonslair where I do most of my gaming and purchasing has a minimum of fifteen gaming tables setup at any given time and a lot of folding tables ready to go which they setup for more. They have recently taken to using the empty building next door (Landlord lets them) to do the overflow from Magic the Gathering tournaments so the rest of us fit in the main store. On a Friday night (like tonight) the damn place is probably has 50-100 people in there constantly with more moving in and out throughout the night. I'm not saying a Games Workshop Store has to provide that much support... but what I'm suggesting is that they have to get at least half that much if they mean to compete.


My local GW store has 1 intro table of 40k, WFB & The Hobbit (formerly LoTR) and 2 other tables along with a paint station.

We are just spoiled over here. This would seem inadequate, particularly when combined with the fact that one of those tables isn't for free play, only demo work.


Compare that to my local games tore that isn't a GW brand, then it doesn't have a table, and I've only seen people in their buying things. Don't get me wrong, the guy who runs it is perfectly friendly and you can chat to him about painting, but he doesn't play and the focus is not on wargaming but on remote control cars.

You guys are like the reverse of us wherein our Games Workshop stores look like that.

[Wolfshade]

I think one contributing factor to the size difference between shall we say our large hobby GW stores and the stores you describe is the cost of ground rent. With higher population densities this leads to much higher ground rents per square footage, so these stores tend to be much smaller because otherwise the costs would be unbearable by the business.

[Caitsidhe]

I think one contributing factor to the size difference between shall we say our large hobby GW stores and the stores you describe is the cost of ground rent. With higher population densities this leads to much higher ground rents per square footage, so these stores tend to be much smaller because otherwise the costs would be unbearable by the business.

Perhaps but Games Workshop plopped a store down in San Antonio with us. Rental property is cheap here compared to say a more conventional big city. They CHOSE to rent a closet.

[Chris Copeland]

The LGS and the GW stores serve two different functions. GW stores are dedicated to bringing new blood into the hobby and the LGSs cater to veteran players. That is how it is in San Antonio.

The San Antonio GW is very nice (albeit small). It has a paint station, a demo table and two tables dedicated to open gaming. The local manager is great about introducing the hobby to new players and nurturing their interest. They have plenty of weekend events (small leagues, painting and modeling lessons, all of the usual stuff). Here is one thing I really dig: the manager happily directs players to larger events and groups at Dragon's Lair and Alien Worlds.

So, to sum up: these stores fill different functions. GW stores draw in new players and LGSs sustain veterans. Obviously, GW does care about the overall success of LGSs. Cope

[Psychosplodge]

Perhaps but Games Workshop plopped a store down in San Antonio with us. Rental property is cheap here compared to say a more conventional big city. They CHOSE to rent a closet.

They very briefly had a warehouse unit near me with about 30 tables and a shop in the corner with seating paint stations and vending machines.

It never filled up... shame really as that availability of tables meant I got more gaming in than I had for years.

[Wolfshade]

Perhaps but Games Workshop plopped a store down in San Antonio with us. Rental property is cheap here compared to say a more conventional big city. They CHOSE to rent a closet.

Maybe this is down to them copying the small UK store version?

[Charistoph]

I haven't seen the nearest GW shop since it opened. There was one closer, but it was shut down. The closer one had about 3-4 tables, one of which was display.

Empire Games, Mesa, my LGS, have 6 rows (2-4 tables each) of tables for TT gaming, about 4 for Magic, and an intro table for both Warhammers, Flames of War, Hordes, and Warmachine. The Painting Table is a bar around the register area. These guys know how to run a Gaming shop, and do their best to encourage good people to show up.

[Necron2.0]

Yes the Thailand Textbook reseller case. I saw that and thought it might be relevant to our conversation here, but it is a bit different.

Not really. Within the US I cannot be restricted from reselling. Outside the US, I don't know, but since I'm based in the US and the actual sale takes place within the US, international law isn't my problem. All I have to worry about (and the only thing my government cares about) is that I pay the taxes/tariffs. In any event, the only real power GW has is to threaten not to do business with an established brick-and-mortar business. I am purely on-line, and any of a number of different (perfectly legal, above board and in adherence with GW policy) purchase agreements that I could arrange between myself and one of several LGS's in my area does not fall under the purview of GW, anymore than GW can restrict any other individual customer who frequents any given LGS. They won't have the power to track it, restrict it nor interfere in any way with it.

[GAZ-NZ]

Im in New Zealand
Im in a good job on good money
In saying that I cant justify paying thousands of $ for little plastic men
We get ripped off here big time paying way for my minis.

I'm buying from Ebay and other sellers for cheaper overseas if I do
although US postage seems to be going up and up
If i cant get it i go without and I note I spend more time playing PC games than gaming now as a result.
Like other companies I've seen as soon as they get shares listed they charge more and more trying to get a better return for investors
gone from a gaming company to an basically a money making corporation

The currency thing is an issue but that can be sorted through careful marketing and pricing for local stores.
If products were sold cheap and reasonable and locally available people wouldn't be buying from overseas.
Its at unrealistic price levels and has been for some time. That's what drives buying overseas in my opinion.

There whole approach of selling them, restricting bits the whole thing is a joke.

GWs lost me as a consumer.
I used to spend thousands
now its nothing.
Cheers

[daboarder]

No idea if he's posted it here, but this is curtesy of Gotthammer and really does illistrate the point quite nicely.

http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/how-much-is-gw-ripping-you-off_27.html

[Lexington]

Not really. Within the US I cannot be restricted from reselling.
Well, not quite - GW just can't take you to court over it (and expect to win, anyway). They're perfectly within their rights to terminate their sales agreement with you for reselling online, however.


In any event, the only real power GW has is to threaten not to do business with an established brick-and-mortar business. I am purely on-line, and any of a number of different (perfectly legal, above board and in adherence with GW policy) purchase agreements that I could arrange between myself and one of several LGS's in my area does not fall under the purview of GW, anymore than GW can restrict any other individual customer who frequents any given LGS. They won't have the power to track it, restrict it nor interfere in any way with it.
Maybe. Remember, the new trade agreement gives GW the power to randomly "spot check" retailer sales sheets. Depending on how they sell to you, they could well lose their trade account for it. Not to say that a little creative re-naming or accounting couldn't take care of things, but GW's not powerless here.

That said, I do hope retailers manage to find tricky ways to get around GW's silly retail shenanigans. Getting bits from legit US online retailers is a lot easier and faster than getting them from the illicit Chinese and Russian re-casters who'll suddenly flood eBay to replace them.

[Necron2.0]

Well, not quite - GW just can't take you to court over it (and expect to win, anyway). They're perfectly within their rights to terminate their sales agreement with you for reselling online, however.

That's the point, though. I'm joe-schmoe off the street. I don't have an agreement with GW. My agreement (if I were to go forward with this) would be with one or more LGS's, and I'd be their customer, not GW's. Whom an LGS does business with is private information GW is in no way entitled to know. Whether I worked out a "wholesale+" agreement with my LGS, a bulk purchase agreement or simply bought the stuff full price and resold to people outside my "trade zone" via an auction site or one of my other sales outlets, there is fudge-all GW could do about it.



Maybe. Remember, the new trade agreement gives GW the power to randomly "spot check" retailer sales sheets. Depending on how they sell to you, they could well lose their trade account for it. Not to say that a little creative re-naming or accounting couldn't take care of things, but GW's not powerless here.

Largely that's bluster on GW's part. They may say that they'll conduct spot checks, but they cannot legally compel a private independent store to give up the names of those they do business with (not that my LGS would even have those records), which means an LGS can tell them whatever they want, whether it's true or not. Likewise they are not entitled to the financials of an independent company - there are laws against that sort of thing. Even if an independent LGS were fool enough to buy into GW's BS, GW has created a situation whereby anyone could simply buy something from a cheaper "trade zone" and resell it in a more expensive one and still turn a profit, and GW's policies have no teeth to stop it ... other than bluster.