Mind Shackle Scarabs vs Murder Sword

[Deadlift]

This came up tonight and kind of stumped us, do the MSS turn the Murder sword against its owner to full effect ?

The rules do say that the MSS attacks benefit from any abilities and penalties from the enemies weapon, but the murder sword is specific to a certain pre picked model. What do you guys think ?

[Learn2Eel]

Let's have a look. Page 69 of the Chaos Space Marine codex;


THE MURDER SWORD
.....
Murder: Immediately before the start of the first turn you must nominate one enemy character to be the target of the bearer of the Murder Sword......Whilst the bearer is in base contact with the nominated character, the Murder Sword's Strength becomes x2, its AP becomes 1, and it has the Instant Death special rule.

If you were in base contact with the target of the Murder Sword, then yes, the Murder rule would come into play. Otherwise, my answer would be no.

[Nabterayl]

Totally agree with Learn2Eel.

Bear in mind that the Murder Sword has always been able to be Sx2 AP1 against targets other than its "target" - for instance, if the bearer were in base contact with its target and neither were involved in a challenge (not impossible, though less likely than in other codices), the Murder Sword would be Sx2 AP1 even against regular targets. Imagine the following:


Chaos Lord McBeatsdown joins a squad of Chaos marines led by Aspiring Champion Fernwell. The Murder Sword's nominated target is Captain Tightpants, who has joined a squad of space marines led by Sergeant Red Shirt. McBeatsdown's unit charges Tightpants'. During the charge, McBeatsdown gets into base contact with Tightpants. Fernwell issues a challenge, which is accepted by Red Shirt. McBeatsdown is now in base contact with the target of the Murder Sword, but not involved in a challenge, leaving plenty of regular space marines potentially staring down the blade of an Sx2 AP1 Instant Death sword.

[Tynskel]

Good, Red Shirt some how managed to survive this round.

[Houghten]

Therefore, do not choose a model with scarabs as your sword's target.

[pauljc]

I would say it doesn't work. Choosing an enemy character as a target doesn't seem like an ability to me, nor a bonus. The target of the weapon's special rules has already been chosen, and I don't see how the MSS can alter that.

Sure, I get it, the scarabs tunnel on in there and make the wielder of the sword change his mind. Still seems like a stretch of the rule to me. I could just as easily say that the Lord offers up his sacrificial target to the dark gods, and he can't just go back and change his mind.

[Mr Mystery]

Rules are clear.

It beefs you up whilst you are in BTB with the nominated target, not when you are beating the nominated target round the head with it.

[Phototoxin]

It's a bit weird as obviously its 'keyed' to kill a certain character but actually its to your advantage to leave him alive as long as possible to get the buffs. But in clear black and white it works as MrMystery says!

[Tynskel]

It is clear to me that fluff wise, the weapon grows in strength as it approaches the target. In game rules, you need to be very close, B2B close. Typically, though, this would mean you need to challenge your opponent to ensure B2B.

[Mr Mystery]

True enough.

And to be honest, it's pretty easy to avoid, as it involves the characters being in very precise positions to wind up BTB anyways.

But a good query nonetheless!