Who's Matt Ward?

[jgebi]

Well I don't mean to sound noobish but. Who is Matt Ward? and whats everyone's problem with him?

[spaceman91]

Well I don't mean to sound noobish but. Who is Matt Ward? and whats everyone's problem with him?

he is a codex/ army book writer. Lots of people dont like his fluff. One thing i do think like some others is he doesn't always write balanced books.

EDIT: codex: space marine is one of his.

[Wolfshade]

From Wikipedia


Matt Ward is a British author and miniature wargaming designer who is best known for his work in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Ward is an employee of Games Workshop.

Matt Ward is credited as author or co-author for the following publications:
Army Book: Daemons of Chaos (2008)
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 5th Edition (2008)
Codex: Space Marines (2008)
Codex: Blood Angels (2010)
Codex: Grey Knights (2011)

He is also a frequent contributor to the magazine White Dwarf.


When C:GK came out people were like "ZOMG!!!111 the sky is falling it is so BROKEN, I'm never going to play AGAIN!!"

[spaceman91]

When C:GK came out people were like "ZOMG!!!111 the sky is falling it is so BROKEN, I'm never going to play AGAIN!!"

some many people started crying for no reason.

[jgebi]

so people just don't like his fluff XD thats silly

[Wolfshade]

so people just don't like his fluff XD thats silly

Yeah pretty much.

There was also wailing and gnashing of teeth from some quarters as they did not like his rules.

Personally, I have no problem with it.

[jgebi]

I think they need more balance in the codex's so we need more hims

[Wolfshade]

The other thing to perhaps consider was that the more recent codecii that he wrote would have had an eye towards 6th ed. rather than 5th ed.

[DrLove42]

Matt Ward tends to produce codexes that are "balenced" in the grand scheme but have a lot of units that are OP and "must takes" (Purifiers, Necron Fliers) but a lot of stuff that people don't take (Flayed Ones)

if you want perfect balence, but not OP comp strength then every book would be written by Phil Kelly

[Deadlift]

Matt Ward tends to produce codexes that are "balenced" in the grand scheme but have a lot of units that are OP and "must takes" (Purifiers, Necron Fliers) but a lot of stuff that people don't take (Flayed Ones)

if you want perfect balence, but not OP comp strength then every book would be written by Phil Kelly

Cough Cough Space Wolves Cough Cough :p


Im a big fan of Mr Ward :)

My personal top 5 favourite codices and 4 were written by him. Necrons, Space Marines, Grey Knights and Blood Angels are all his and I play all four armies, though BA not so much at the moment. Space Marines is a great codex and Necrons too. Kelly does write a good codex too, my personal favorite from him is The Orks one. Its a lot of fun.

Im not a WAAC and dont play at tournaments. What I like about Wards books is there are very few in my opinion bad choices, so for someone like me who prefers how a model looks, how fun it is to paint etc Ward does a good job.

[Wolfshade]

Cough Cough Space Wolves Cough Cough :p


Im a big fan of Mr Ward :)

My personal top 5 favourite codices and 4 were written by him. Necrons, Space Marines, Grey Knights and Blood Angels are all his and I play all four armies, though BA not so much at the moment. Space Marines is a great codex and Necrons too. Kelly does write a good codex too, my personal favorite from him is The Orks one. Its a lot of fun.

Im not a WAAC and dont play at tournaments. What I like about Wards books is there are very few in my opinion bad choices, so for someone like me who prefers how a model looks, how fun it is to paint etc Ward does a good job.

No WAY! BA are sooooo underpowered it is crazy, I mean they get all shot up with Lascannon and in melee the Swarmlord rips them to part sooo not balanced :rolleyes:

[jgebi]

well are we also forgetting that all the codex armies are built with one race that can completely hammer their *** if your not on your feet. speaking of codex dose anyone know of some good meshing of 40k game and 40k lore/story/ EPIC FUNNIS?

I haven't played inquistor but it seems close but sort of missing the scale I like (500-1500) and then have a few figures that have to do things

[Mr Mystery]

so people just don't like his fluff XD thats silly

It gets better. Unpublished authors attack his writing, without offering any actual reasoning or critique.

[Wolfshade]

Well my warboss has sucessfully killed Yarrick in melee each time they have met, but that is the opposite of lore...

[DrLove42]

I once had a lone cultist overwatch a wound off, then kill in 1 round of combat a destroyer lord with a 2+ armour save....that snot just fluff breaking, but common sense breaking....

[OrksOrksOrks]

Yeah, the Matt Ward hate is hilarious, hes a decent rule writer and his fluff is what people were asking for, a return to the over-the-top silliness of 2nd Edition.

[Power Klawz]

Matt Ward isn't grimdark enough and his writing is pretty hamfisted. (Then again, I guess that can be said for a lot of games workshop writing, I mean if any of these guys could actually write they probably wouldn't be penning narratives for plastic soldiers, but I digress.)

He basically soaks up the hate for what many consider questionable practices and trends in the direction of 40k. I've heard people say that his codexes have internal balance but that really isn't the case, he's just as guilty as most other 5th edition writers of inadvertently promoting "must have this-itis." In terms of external balance I don't think things are quite as bad as some people would claim (unless you're talking about Grey Knights, then yes, they are as bad as people say.)

What it all really boils down to is that he wrote something about the Ultramarines being all space marines spiritual liege or whatever, and he is the poster boy for power creep.

I think so long as they can continue the focus on making every unit as desirable as possible it will mitigate some of the worst excesses of Wardism.

[Wildcard]

Unpublished authors attack his writing, without offering any actual reasoning or critique.

That Draigo thing is the worst piece of fluff in 40k - ever. One man killing the **** out of all four chaos gods armies from lesser representatives to the greater daemons. All this on the most hostile environment in the whole 40k universe, without supplies and anything to rearm / repair his gear with. (If he even is taking any hits..)

No other entity in the 40k could have done so, for so long and without any aid.


, hes a decent rule writer and his fluff is what people were asking for, a return to the over-the-top silliness of 2nd Edition.

Who were wishing for over-the-top silliness, and were they asking it for C:Grey Knights or to the 40k universe in general? (Because i most certainly didn't wish for it, nor have i heard of such wishes before)

About the decent rules: If we talk of Grey Knights. One of the most hated thing is the psycannon spam. I would say the rules are more than a bit off. 1/3rd of the weapon options are useless, 1/3rd is good, but only highly situational and is actually good for only one purpose. And then there is this hated 1/3rd: Psycannon. a gun that is good, but not that good that it should be banned. What makes it so hated is the fact that no other weapons are taken, not because they are not as good as psycannons, but more because they either completely such in the role they are designed for (if they are designed for any role at all), or then because of other army limitations, simply taking one will leave you in trouble big time.

Where are GK Prognosticars? Hyperion would have been a prime candidate for "Named Librarian HQ"-option.
Grand Master Mordrak and Brother Captain Stern: Both poor Special Characters, both when compared against other options in C:GK and when compared against other codex Special Characters, in all options/wargear, rules and prowess..


I can't see how a "decent" rulewriter could have made these issues slip so baddly between his fingers.. Or, i believe the better question is what happened to Ward to let such stuff slip, Codex BA was a great piece of work with lots of unique stuff and options to kit and play whole lot different.

EDIT:
This link is full of good ideas of how to fix the codex Grey Knights. Not all of them are spot on in my opinion, and the opinions for point costs may vary, but there are plenty to choose from in form of great ideas..

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264435-fixing-units/

Also to the op:
Here is a pretty fun and comprehensive guide to Mr. Ward

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward

:)

/EDIT

[DrLove42]

5pts for Psybolt ammo.

5pts for +1 Strength. Be it mounted in a Bolter or a Autocannon. THAT is ridiculous

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Mat Ward is awesome.

That is all.

[Power Klawz]

Also he had the Grey Knights kill a bunch of sororitas FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Because misogyny.

And yeah, Draigo arm wrestles greater daemons in the realm of chaos for the lulz.

What you see in his writing is a very basic error in fiction writing, he tells and doesn't show. He doesn't build a believable narrative to showcase that so and so of the Ultrabutts chapter is an amazingly gifted warrior, he just makes him punch out greater daemons for no particular reason. (I swear its like every special character in the universe has at least one bloodthirster notched on their belt nowadays, or at least an Avatar.)

[Psychosplodge]

I liked second edition sillyness like the shokk attack gun, not a space marine that routinely b!tch slaps greater daemons...

[Wolfshade]

In 2nd ed you could get that level of silliness, the greatest triumph was my DC charged 4 greater demons and came out the otherside.

[Sly]

5pts for Psybolt ammo.

5pts for +1 Strength. Be it mounted in a Bolter or a Autocannon. THAT is ridiculous

This is my problem with Ward. It's obvious at first glance that this is unbalanced. And this is only one example out of many. Annihilation Barges, Mindshackle Scarabs, etc.

All units in a Codex usable? I can't recall the last time I heard of someone fielding some of the rarer (non-existent?) Henchmen options. Or a Callidus Assassin. Praetorians and Lychguard... meh. Etcetera.

He is all over the place in his Codex writing. He writes good units, and bad units. That results in a bad Codex, because for strong lists you take the units that he made unreasonably strong, and ignore all of the ones that he made weak, but that's not good design. He's not so far off that he's as terrible as he's made out to be, but I still don't like his writing because he makes OBVIOUS errors. I can forgive how cheap Mindshackle Scarabs are since Challenges may not have been tested thoroughly when the Necrons came out, but the damage potential for the points of Annihilation Barges and Psyammo Dreads were always obvious. And obviously better than comparable units, while still having strong defenses. Anyone who lets such obvious mistakes go to playtesting is not a good game designer.

[Psychosplodge]

In 2nd ed you could get that level of silliness, the greatest triumph was my DC charged 4 greater demons and came out the otherside.

It Could happen, but all the time?

I had a space marine veteran sergeant that massacred half a dozen genestealers, but he only did it once...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Also he had the Grey Knights kill a bunch of sororitas FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Because misogyny.

And yeah, Draigo arm wrestles greater daemons in the realm of chaos for the lulz.

What you see in his writing is a very basic error in fiction writing, he tells and doesn't show. He doesn't build a believable narrative to showcase that so and so of the Ultrabutts chapter is an amazingly gifted warrior, he just makes him punch out greater daemons for no particular reason. (I swear its like every special character in the universe has at least one bloodthirster notched on their belt nowadays, or at least an Avatar.)

That'll do pig, that'll do.

[Wolfshade]

Don't forget in 2nd ed you got bonus strength and attack dice for being the next model in combat. It was a 30 man unit...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But we aren't playing 2nd, so the point is irrelevant really. :p

[Psychosplodge]

Oh I know, how else do you think he did it?

[Nabterayl]

Also he had the Grey Knights kill a bunch of sororitas FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Because misogyny.

And yeah, Draigo arm wrestles greater daemons in the realm of chaos for the lulz.

What you see in his writing is a very basic error in fiction writing, he tells and doesn't show. He doesn't build a believable narrative to showcase that so and so of the Ultrabutts chapter is an amazingly gifted warrior, he just makes him punch out greater daemons for no particular reason. (I swear its like every special character in the universe has at least one bloodthirster notched on their belt nowadays, or at least an Avatar.)
To give another viewpoint on this, my take is that codices exist to fill in mythology, not tell narratives in a general sense. If I don't know that Zeus abducted Europa, it's perfectly okay to simply tell me that. I may want to know the story in more detail, but sometimes it's just important to know facts.

Draigo's much-maligned-in-some-quarters lore exists, I think, to demonstrate the principle that in extraordinary circumstances that the Warp is not inviolate; it can be invaded by the right mind just as it invades "real" space. Some people still don't like that (some people don't like Draigo's lore because of that). Personally, I think the milieu is more interesting if the Warp can, in principle, be reverse-invaded. And so on and so forth.

[Power Klawz]

Given the products that Matt Ward has had a big hand in you see a disturbing trend.

I believe his first foray into 40k codex writing was the current Space Marines codex. Mechanically that's a pretty well put together list, but the fluff was horrendous and revisionary. You'd be hard pressed to differentiate it from some random guy's Ultramarines fan fiction, it just shafted so many other chapters with its connotations.

Then came necrons. I suppose its a bit of a controversy, but I think most people agree that the newcron fluff is better than the oldcron fluff, generally speaking. But then you look at the list and its all over the place. Crazy overpowered for the most part but with some obviously boneheaded choices that no one will ever use again. 6th edition only exacerbated this unbalance.

So you've got some lessons learned from those two endeavors right? The next thing you do should be mechanically sound and thematically appropriate amirite?

LOLNO

Grey knights.

He basically took everything he did wrong in his previous endeavors and mashed it together, throwing all the good points out with the bath water. (And making Grey Knights wear Battle Sisters as hats.)

I'm also of the opinion that narrative fiction has come a long way since tales of Zeus were contemporary fiction. I guess it was once considered the height of literacy to say that lightning bolts are just Zeus getting his freak on and that's that, but that doesn't really excuse poor writing in the modern era.

Now I don't expect Oscar Wilde-like wordplay in my warhams of course, but I do expect a certain degree of narrative exposition. Take a look at the story of the Elven races in fantasy, thousands of years of warfare and bitter enmity with a few key points and characters throughout. Aenarion basically sacrificed the future of his race to buy another tomorrow for the world with the sword of Khaine, sure he was a great big badass but there were consequences for his actions and limits to his power that were not defined by the expedience of literary convenience.

More to the point, look at the history of the Blood Angels character Tycho. A tragic figure who's luminary career was cut short by madness and death, he is a metaphor for the fall of the chapter as a whole. Now look at the Sanguinor. He is a guy with a stupid face on his mask that wrastles greater daemons.

To draw parallels to mythology is, in a way, a correct conclusion. Modern mythological fiction is relegated to the realm of comic books however, and those are seldom lauded for their enthralling narrative (bar a few luminaries, of course.) What you see, then, is a departure from a universe that invites dark musings and imagination and a move towards a comic book reality, where predefined archetypical characters stride the world, mighty and unassailable as opposed to all-too frail and fallible.

One of the main underpinning of the setting is that no matter how powerful or singular an individual is, there can be only war unending. Even the Emperor, for all intents and purpose a walking god, failed miserably in his attempt at universal unification.

What then gives license to Draigo to pull a Sly Marbo on the realm of Chaos?

It is a strange trend that a wargame would place so much emphasis on a single character. In the past when mention was made of important characters it was in the context of a larger conflict with farther reaching implications than body slamming a Bloodthirster. Look to the battles for Armageddon, there were many supporting characters and of course Yarrick and Ghazgkull. They did eventually meet in mortal combat on a few occasions, but these were more vignettes of the wider conflict.

Even in game mechanics terms you see this trend, whereas before you needed to have your opponents permission to use special characters, and even then it was usually only appropriate for larger games. Now you see entire armies that simply cannot function without one special character or another, or is most other cases some important or unique functionality being unlocked through special characters. This takes away from the idea that you are building your own narrative, that you are playing your own hero.

Why would you field Plague Lord Garith Pustular, defiler of the Nemedian sector when you can just play Abaddon, who will invariably be mechanically superior?

I guess if I wanted to play as a super hero, I'd play heroclix.

[Sly]

"Now you see entire armies that simply cannot function without one special character or another, or is most other cases some important or unique functionality being unlocked through special characters. This takes away from the idea that you are building your own narrative, that you are playing your own hero. "

My GK-rules Adeptus Mechanicus army uses Inquisitor Coteaz. Except that he's not Coteaz, he's Archmagos Prometheorius.

Special Characters can be THE character if you wish, but can also just be a comparable representation of the character's abilities but from a different chapter, world, etc. Except, of course, for Draigo, because there CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!

[Nabterayl]

One of the main underpinning of the setting is that no matter how powerful or singular an individual is, there can be only war unending. Even the Emperor, for all intents and purpose a walking god, failed miserably in his attempt at universal unification.

What then gives license to Draigo to pull a Sly Marbo on the realm of Chaos?
I don't think that's quite fair. Draigo hasn't actually done anything to the realm of Chaos. No daemons have been killed, no fortresses overthrown, no territory conquered. The codex is quite explicit about that. That a single man - the right man - can defeat a greater daemon in combat has never been strange in this universe. Draigo simply stands for the proposition (or, if you prefer, is one expression of the proposition) that the Warp and its denizens are not the alpha predator of the spiritual world. The relationship is more complex than that.

The mythology of Chaos is that what seem like mankind's right and natural responses to hardship are in fact base and evil, that the supremacy of the Chaos gods over mankind is the inevitable consequence of the nature of mankind. The Grey Knights' mythological purpose is to exemplify the proposition that the previous statement is false. The mythological purpose of Draigo's fruitless indomitability is to exemplify the proposition that the previous statement is only true as far as it goes; i.e., if the supremacy of the Chaos gods over mankind is not the inevitable consequence of the nature of mankind, it does not follow that mankind can gain supremacy over the Chaos gods.

[Power Klawz]

To be honest you are very obviously giving Ward too much credit. Draigo is not a cypher for hope in the wartorn future of the 41st millennium, he is just a guy in power armor that does XTREME stuff so the kids will buy his plastic avatar.

If they really wanted to move the story forward and engender some form or motif of hope they would probably quit dickering about with the Horus Heresy and do something important, like I don't know, kill off Abaddon or unplug the emperor or have Terra take a hive fleet to the face, something like that.

I just realized that Draigo is basically Imperial Doomrider.

[Mr Mystery]

Created to sell stuff? So that's different to every other product because?

[bfmusashi]

I like when people attach logistical concerns to a guy wandering the Land of Make Believe. The moment Draigo was sucked into the warp and it was established his wards held there was no reason his story couldn't continue. I mean, Dorothy Gale did it.

[Nabterayl]

To be honest you are very obviously giving Ward too much credit. Draigo is not a cypher for hope in the wartorn future of the 41st millennium, he is just a guy in power armor that does XTREME stuff so the kids will buy his plastic avatar.

If they really wanted to move the story forward and engender some form or motif of hope they would probably quit dickering about with the Horus Heresy and do something important, like I don't know, kill off Abaddon or unplug the emperor or have Terra take a hive fleet to the face, something like that.
I'm ... not sure you're understanding me. Draigo is Grey Knights XTREME, sure. Grey Knights themselves are Mobile Infantry who are also space knights played by wizards in SPAAAAAACE so that kids will buy them, of course. They also stand for the proposition that the Chaos gods do not necessarily represent the fundamental nature of mankind. Like most mythology*, it operates on both levels if you let it. Zeus is a dude who chucks lightning bolts around, sure. He also stands for the proposition that even if you're omnipotent you ought to be reasonable and listen to people. I'm sure you remember all that from your university mythology courses.

* Continuing the not sure you're understanding me thread, "moving the story forward" is not what "mythology" does as I'm using the term. 40K doesn't have a story. It's a setting, in which people can tell stories. The literary/product point of the mythology is to make sure you understand what the setting is.

[Power Klawz]

Created to sell stuff? So that's different to every other product because?

In quintessential concept, its not. However the method is as important as the goal, and there is such a thing as integrity. (believe it or not.)

You have an artistic endeavor that is Warhammer 40k. It is the product of many years of collective effort. It is basically a pastiche of 80's sci-fi tropes and a sort of medieval European aesthetic sensibility. Its genesis was not so noble as to preclude a certain amount of immaturity or childish fancy, but it did have a certain darkly ironic core to it that I assume most found appealing. (this assumption is mostly due to the longevity of the product.)

When you start tossing around Draigos and Sanguinors it has a certain cheapening effect on the milieu. These are not products of a grim and gritty universe where life, even of the most powerful sort, is cheaper than gas. It dilutes the aesthetic and presents a very obvious marketing ploy that is so painfully divergent from the initial concept that it can't help but grate on the nerves of people who were fans of the original product.

Draigo is the scrappy doo of warhammer 40k.

(also I majored in electrical engineering, mythology was not one of my electives haha. We tend to call it "college" over here too, I wonder if mythology is a mandatory course across the pond?)

[scadugenga]

Quick Summation of the Matt Ward "debate"

Matt Ward Supporters (to be known as "Fanboi/grrls, or just Ward-bois/grrls): Matt Ward is the best thing since sliced bread! All you non-believers have no idea what you're talking about and you just hate for no reason! His rules are tight, and we can {Haters interjection: by any slimmest margin of lsd-induced fantasy} explain how what he writes easily fits into the 40k verse!!!

Matt Ward Detractors (to be known as "Haters gonna Hate--without any reason) Matt Ward is an incomprehensible hack, and is directly responsible for the decline of 40k, and could be linked to Greece's economic troubles! He designs OP crap that is anti-fluff and should be burned at the stake by the Church of Kelly!!

Those of us with actual literary education/writing/editing experience (to be known as "Eff those guys!" by the above groups) Matt Ward writes interesting rules, but lacks sadly in his ability to write effective and true-to-the-existing meta-plot background and narrative fiction. His rules suffer from multiple potential interpretations that engender excessive internet flame-wars, and require extensive FAQs. His writing skill level approximates early "Intro to Fiction Writing" college courses. Don't get us started on his 1970's era DC Comics style naming conventions...


Wardbois and Haters: Screw you, you wannabe unsuccessful writer! What do you know?

Wash, Rinse, Repeat ad nauseum...

[bfmusashi]

Is there a character in 40k that is more 'realistic' than Draigo? In order for him to be Scrappy Doo there has to be an objective baseline that isn't as bad and I really can't think of one.

[Power Klawz]

I was gonna say some more stuff, but then scadugenga said all the stuff that there is to be said.

(Ok one last reply, if Draigo is Scrappy Doo then Yarrick is Scooby. He's not very realistic, he is like 170 years old and he rolls around in a tank bigger than your local Wal-Mart, but he captures the "feel" of the setting far more succinctly. He fits into the collective narrative that is 40k far better than Draigo. He is not a comic book hero, he is a war hero.)

[Wildcard]

I don't think that's quite fair. Draigo hasn't actually done anything to the realm of Chaos. No daemons have been killed, no fortresses overthrown, no territory conquered.

Actually, didn't Draigo destroy that fortress, burn some chaosland (nurgle iirc), kill some slanesh *****es ( 4sisters or something like that ) etc.. And it was stated that now all but the craziest khorne worshippers avoid Draigo as well as they can, since no-one has ever lived after a conflict. And that greater deamon (forgot of which god) promised Draigo a way out from the warp, permanently back to realspace if he would have spared the greater deamons life. But as we all know, Draigo just slayed it..

[Mr Mystery]

Quick Summation of the Matt Ward "debate"

Matt Ward Supporters (to be known as "Fanboi/grrls, or just Ward-bois/grrls): Matt Ward is the best thing since sliced bread! All you non-believers have no idea what you're talking about and you just hate for no reason! His rules are tight, and we can {Haters interjection: by any slimmest margin of lsd-induced fantasy} explain how what he writes easily fits into the 40k verse!!!

Matt Ward Detractors (to be known as "Haters gonna Hate--without any reason) Matt Ward is an incomprehensible hack, and is directly responsible for the decline of 40k, and could be linked to Greece's economic troubles! He designs OP crap that is anti-fluff and should be burned at the stake by the Church of Kelly!!

Those of us with actual literary education/writing/editing experience (to be known as "Eff those guys!" by the above groups) Matt Ward writes interesting rules, but lacks sadly in his ability to write effective and true-to-the-existing meta-plot background and narrative fiction. His rules suffer from multiple potential interpretations that engender excessive internet flame-wars, and require extensive FAQs. His writing skill level approximates early "Intro to Fiction Writing" college courses. Don't get us started on his 1970's era DC Comics style naming conventions...


Wardbois and Haters: Screw you, you wannabe unsuccessful writer! What do you know?

Wash, Rinse, Repeat ad nauseum...

And for those of us who just enjoy a good read, and see precisely nothing wrong in Ward's efforts? It may not be Tolstoy, not even Pratchett, but it's a good read nonetheless.

It suits the background quite nicely, and offers something new which in a setting as well established as 40k is to be applauded.

It may not be to any given person's taste, but to say it is therefore worthless is simply hugely arrogant of the person espousing such an opinion, as it seems to suggest they are somehow the sole person in the world upon whom all literary effort is attempting to please.

But then I suspect they may be the same type as film fans who expect all celluloid offerings to be on par with Citizen Kane, The 39 Steps and so on.

Except far, far more arbitrary than that.

[bfmusashi]

I have said before, I place Yarrick above Draigo in terms of silly. Yarrick is an unaugmented human who suffered a traumatic amputation, retained concioussness, and killed his opponent. He manages to avoid terminal blood loss and remains lucid enough to direct the defense of Hades Hive until the battle is won. He has a piece of xenos technology no one understands attached to his body and replaces his eye with a gun because of a rumor. Later he gets a tank the size of a city block and loses it chasing a guy that killed his banner bearer by sitting on him. I like Yarrick, but I was also 12 when he was introduced so I'm a little biased.
And for Wildcard- the fortress he wrecked was Tzeentchian (or the Emerald City) and it was M'Karn that made the offer to send him home. The most outlandish thing he did was killing a Blood Thirster with his bare hands and reforging his axe as his sword.

[Power Klawz]

I think its ok to call bad writing bad.

No one is saying you can't enjoy bad writing of course. I'm sure a lot of people watched the Transformers movies after all.

[bfmusashi]

I think its ok to call bad writing bad.

No one is saying you can't enjoy bad writing of course. I'm sure a lot of people watched the Transformers movies after all.

Speaking of Transformers, I see a parrellel between Matt Ward and Truk Not Munky.

[Nabterayl]

Actually, didn't Draigo destroy that fortress, burn some chaosland (nurgle iirc), kill some slanesh *****es ( 4sisters or something like that ) etc..
Well ... no, he didn't :P As it says right on page 39, "The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves."

I'm with Mystery: "It suits the background quite nicely, and offers something new which in a setting as well established as 40k is to be applauded."

EDIT: I'm not across the pond, Power Klawz, unless you're across the pond ... er, that is to say, I did my undergrad in Classics in California, USA. I'm just used to folks on these kinds of threads being British, for some reason, I guess.

[Mr Mystery]

I think its ok to call bad writing bad.

No one is saying you can't enjoy bad writing of course. I'm sure a lot of people watched the Transformers movies after all.

Yet you calling it bad writing does not make it bad writing. Competent, serviceable sure. But bad? Hardly. If you don't enjoy reading it, then totally fair enough. But to label it therefore bad? There's many things in this world I can't bloody stand at all, and many popular things I would happily spend the evening nailing my dongliz to a rabid badger in order to avoid. But I wouldn't say those things are therefore bad. I just don't like them.

[Power Klawz]

Its ok Mystery, you can call stuff bad.

I loled pretty hard at "TRUKK NOT MUNKY."

[Mr Mystery]

Not when prose or structure wise there is nothing wrong.

Not liking something does not make it bad. Dislike and disagree with the content by all means. But to say it's bad, when there is no grammatical or structural flaws is downright insulting to the author, and again, really rather arrogant.

[Nabterayl]

"Through such acts, and many thousands more, did Kaldor Draigo forge a new legend, but this time in a domain where legend is the stuff of life" might be bad style, but that amounts to "I don't like it."

Contrast with these, from a piece of fiction I recently read as a favor to a friend:


"Their faces were indiscernible, nor was there shape to their limbs, but they appeared to be human."

"Your love of the Republic is well documented. But it is Minmatar that you hold closest to your heart, and therein makes all the difference."

Those are actually wrong. Totally different kind of bad, you know?

[Deadlift]

I hope Ward wrote the next Tau codex, sounds like it could be Vettock though. Maybe he is doing Eldar. ;)

[Power Klawz]

I myself am really rather arrogant so I guess its not out of character.

[pnkfld7892]

I still don't understand the hate. Really if you don't like it, don't play the game or get out of the hobby. It's that simple, *****ing really doesn't solve anything; and quite frankly pisses people, like me, off when all I see is hate on the company and people who at least give(sell) us the opportunity to be involved in such a universe.

Moral of the story.... People just SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY!

[scadugenga]

I still don't understand the hate. Really if you don't like it, don't play the game or get out of the hobby. It's that simple, *****ing really doesn't solve anything; and quite frankly pisses people, like me, off when all I see is hate on the company and people who at least give(sell) us the opportunity to be involved in such a universe.

Moral of the story.... People just SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY!

This..would be a prime example of a Wardboi...

Or perhaps, a more generalized GeeDubboi.

Here you have all the intrinsic-yet-unsupported moral superiority, Internet rage, and misplaced egotism that somehow all opinions should match their own, and any dissenters should go away, or meekly tow the "line."

To all this, I can only say rage on, boi, rage on. I'm sure somewhere on the Internet you will find some sort of validation...

Somewhere...

Mr. M: to your initial response to my post I have but this: "good" and "bad" is largely in the eye of the perceiver. It is subjective for the most part.

Yet your argument also has a flaw. If being grammatically correct is the sole qualifier for something to be "good" then all novels should be best sellers, all movies should get 4 stars as long as the actors said their lines without mistake, and all musicians should be mega popular if they can play their instruments without hitting the wrong notes.

But that is not the case. Not every writer can be a Tolstoy (thank all that's holy...) or even a Patterson or a Robert B Parker.

There is good fiction, great fiction, average fiction, meh fiction, and atrocious fiction. Ward falls somewhere along the line between "meh" and "atrocious."

And that is my personal opinion, as well as my educated one.

[Nabterayl]

Yet your argument also has a flaw. If being grammatically correct is the sole qualifier for something to be "good"
I believe what he said was that so long as one has written valid English, it cannot be bad, although it can be disliked, and need not be liked, by anyone. Which is certainly a way to define "bad" that avoids your counterexample, although not one that everybody needs to agree with. I'm not sure that I do. I do think it is more useful to speak in terms of style and aesthetic sensibility than "good" or "bad," though.

[Power Klawz]

The subjectivity of a quality does not make it inherently less valid. Especially given the context of this discussion I do not think it appropriate to equate the structural soundness of literature with what is or is not "good."

Good writing is not defined by properly placed punctuation, but by the effect it has on people. In that respect of course it is purely subjective, but even so we can garner some truth from subjectivity in the form of consensus. At least, truth enough for passing conversation.

[scadugenga]

I believe what he said was that so long as one has written valid English, it cannot be bad, although it can be disliked, and need not be liked, by anyone. Which is certainly a way to define "bad" that avoids your counterexample, although not one that everybody needs to agree with. I'm not sure that I do. I do think it is more useful to speak in terms of style and aesthetic sensibility than "good" or "bad," though.

I disagree.

If that was his intent, he should have stated that their is correctly written prose, and incorrectly written prose.

And that would still not be right, as authors frequently disregard the stated rules of English in the course of storytelling. The great writers do it elegantly.

[Nabterayl]

They may disregard the rules, but not without reason or scheme. There is still such a thing as incorrectly written prose. For instance, "he should have stated that their is correctly written prose, and incorrectly written prose" is incorrectly written prose.

[scadugenga]

They may disregard the rules, but not without reason or scheme. There is still such a thing as incorrectly written prose. For instance, "he should have stated that their is correctly written prose, and incorrectly written prose" is incorrectly written prose.

Oh, how wounded am I, that I was caught with a homophonic error! ;p. Sheesh, my wife and I just had a baby a week ago. I'm a bit sleep deprived, and using an iPad instead of my computer. Damn autocorrect/auto fill is my bane...

So, that being said, you're going to nitpick me about a basic mistake to somehow counter my argument?

Shall I go through all your posts to do the same?

Isn't that just a teensy bit banal?

And I never stated that they could do so without reason or scheme? Though some have: ee *******s, for example.

Edit: are you effing kidding me!?!? The damn filter decided a famous poet's last name is obscene???

c ummings.

Sheesh...

[pnkfld7892]

To scdugenga,

The point I was trying to make is: If you can do it better; why aren't you employed at GW writing the codices?

[Nabterayl]

No insult was intended. As I understand Mystery's point, he believes that "bad" should be reserved for invalid English - examples such as "therein makes all the difference," improper use of words, that sort of thing; everything else, he seems to be saying, is only "bad" in the sense of taste. You then appeared to contend that there is no such thing as invalid English, on the grounds that great authors have broken the rules of the language. I don't know if you actually believe that, thought we were talking about something else, or simply overstated your position, but if you do believe it, I would point to the post I quoted as a counterexample.

As for whether or not it's fair or helpful to say that something is "bad" when one means "it is not to my taste, I doubt it is to anybody else's, and if it is, I question their taste" ... my opinion is that it's not the most helpful way to phrase one's thoughts.

[Pendragon38]

I find that there are some major problems with Mat's way of writing the rules for Gk,Ba and crons codexs but I deal with them one army at a time at my flgs with his C:Sm. I can't change the codexs so I'll wait for the FAQ, till then I'll drink a few pints and deal with it till the next one drops.

Perry

[HERO]

Mat's books tend to be way too powerful compared to other books out there. I feel he has a poor sense of external balance.

And then there's his newest 8th Ed. Daemons book. I have no words to describe that one.

[Psychosplodge]

Quick Summation of the Matt Ward "debate"


Those of us with actual literary education/writing/editing experience (to be known as "Eff those guys!" by the above groups) Matt Ward writes interesting rules, but lacks sadly in his ability to write effective and true-to-the-existing meta-plot background and narrative fiction. His rules suffer from multiple potential interpretations that engender excessive internet flame-wars, and require extensive FAQs. His writing skill level approximates early "Intro to Fiction Writing" college courses. Don't get us started on his 1970's era DC Comics style naming conventions...


Wash, Rinse, Repeat ad nauseum...

I was going to add and people who enjoy reading and then Mystery popped up with this V


And for those of us who just enjoy a good read, and see precisely nothing wrong in Ward's efforts? It may not be Tolstoy, not even Pratchett, but it's a good read nonetheless.


however Klawz makes a good point to it.

I think its ok to call bad writing bad.

No one is saying you can't enjoy bad writing of course. I'm sure a lot of people watched the Transformers movies after all.


Plenty of people enjoy poor writing (Breaking dawn anyone?) it doesn't make it any better written...


Extended background material should be written like the old stuff. Anyone remember the life cycle of the fire turtle?

[Denzark]

I have nothing against Ward per se. But lets not try and say his OTT stuff is a refreshing return to the 'silliness' of 2nd edition. Some points:

1. Revisionist fluff and retconning. I have no problem with the fluff developing - the story shouldn't stagnate. But retconning implies some sort of failure with the old fluff. I don't like the feeling that what I bought into and found hugely entertaining, was ineffectual and not entertaining and therefore needed changing. This is what Ward revision brings. What next - the Great harlequin God was actually who beat horus, hiding behind and Emperor shaped mask. Then for lulz he imprisoned Horus in the Golden Throne. Meanwhile Emp is off with Gork and Mork on a grudge match to beat down Khorne and the soon to be born new 5th Chaos God, Dave?

2. Grimdark versus silliness. 2nd ed silliness was puns on British 80's/90's culture, like planets that are sh*t holes being named after Birmingham, and the Greater Catachan Barking Toad etc. Grimdark is Eisenhorn or Gaunts Ghosts. Ward does for Grimdark what the lads did to that girl in Wierd Science, or possibly what the Tomb Raider designers do 'Moar Boobz is good'. There is no subtlety or nuance to Ward.

3. Mix together 1 and 2, add in stuff like 'GK wearing Sisters like hats' (haha) and this goes a long way to illustrate his inferiority, without going on to his rules balance.

I hope this is objective enough for you on the subject of Ward. Incidentally, in rules terms, he seems to be no more guilty of OP or codex creep than anyone else. On that balance subject, as I posted elsewehre, my local GW manager told me that the word from HQ, is that the design studio has been told to stop codex creep. Because that means everyone tries to bring their codex up to the next one, meaning the first period of a new edition is trying to get a level palying field. If codex crep is avoided, the release schedule can be constrained and that means more releases, and possibly the chance for new races. i would say that the first 3 codexes of 6th seem to be fair one balance, have had game stomping stuff (flamers and screamers) dumbed down, and may indicate there is indeed a new approach out there, which hopefully Ward will be shackled to (by his own crazy brain scarabs)

[Learn2Eel]

I'm amazed no-one ever pulled him up on Kaldor Draigo's background. Seriously, how did they miss that? Any individual with even the slightest bit of common sense would realize that a Space Marine - yes, Draigo is still a Space Marine, even if he is obviously very powerful as a Grand Master of the Grey Knights - would have next to no chance against a Daemon Primarch, let alone a regular Primarch. How did he beat Mortarion? Seriously, how!? It makes absolutely no sense and is a complete break in the established fluff; in fact, I would say it is an insult to anyone that even gives two hoots about the Horus Heresy or the Primarchs in general. Hey, one of those Space Marines that are effectively lesser, far weaker imitations of yourselves? Yeah, one of them manhandled a daemonically-empowered form of one of the most dangerous combatants amongst the Primarchs. It doesn't stop there though. He apparently kills Greater Daemons like a human swatting at a fly. He can brave the tests of each Chaos Gods' realm - even though there are millions, perhaps billions, of Daemons that no single being could overcome alone; if he was swarmed by Daemonettes, for example, what would he do? Swipe one at a time with his sword? What does he eat? What does he drink? Does he ever sleep? If he sleeps, do the Daemons become frightened - when Daemons are fear incarnate - and choose not to slay him in his slumber? I could go on and on....it is the worst, most laughable bit of background writing I have ever seen in my long years as a Warhammer 40000 player. It takes the cake. It is absolutely, mind-numbingly, pants-on-head moronic. In fact, going back to Mortarion, the rules don't even match the fluff; look at Mortarion from Horus Heresy: Betrayal, and compare him to Draigo from Grey Knights. Who would win in a direct combat? Mortarion, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Was Matt Ward implying that Mortarion became weaker as a Daemon Primarch? Is he on the phone to Forge World daily to discuss the rules for Daemon Primarch Mortarion and how to ensure they don't break "from established fluff"?

Aside from that abomination, he isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. His codices tend not to weigh up in terms of internal balance; each slot in his army lists tends to have one bad unit, a mix of decent units, then one or two obviously superior units compared to the rest. His external balance is also shoddy sometimes, though I think for the most part his armies aren't "over-powered"; specific units in them are though, which typically leads to the boring spam-armies. Again though, just look at Codex: Space Marines and, aside from a handful of units, Codex: Necrons; both are fine works that combine both strong background-writing and mostly balanced rules. That his Space Marines codex is still the standard to which any new army is compared to is a testament to how well written it is. All he really needs to do to be a major winner in my books is tone back his fluff a bit; much of it comes off as the work of an over-eager fanboy, not an accomplished author.

Just my thoughts. I think people are probably too critical of him, though to be fair he has done some bad things. Still, name a codex author who hasn't made a mistake here or there. Phil Kelly's Space Wolves were the first real army to establish the 'codex-creep' synonymous with 5th Edition, what with their ridiculously under-costed units in contrast to other codices' equivalents. I think few people will forgive the efforts made on the previous Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon armies, whilst the Tyranid codex will forever be a stain in the eyes of many gamers against Robin Cruddace. Tit for tat. No-one is perfect, case closed.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What I don't get in all of this is...

If you guys are going to continually slander the hobby, then why bother playing it? We who enjoy the background and universe will have a much better time enjoying our hobby if there are less of you people around.

Seriously, go play with all of the begrudged Warmachine players, we don't want you here...

[Learn2Eel]

What I don't get in all of this is...

If you guys are going to continually slander the hobby, then why bother playing it? We who enjoy the background and universe will have a much better time enjoying our hobby if there are less of you people around.

Seriously, go play with all of the begrudged Warmachine players, we don't want you here...

I'm not slandering the hobby mate, I'm mostly just pointing out the obvious truth that Draigo's fluff must have been written by a child :) I love the hobby, and as I pointed out, I like most of Ward and the other authors' stuff. There's no sense in completely ignoring the flaws though; mistakes happen of course, but if we want GW to improve their products, the best way to do that is to be vocal.

[Psychosplodge]

Surely it's the fact they love the hobby why it bothers them so much?

[Learn2Eel]

I do love the hobby, and yes, I don't want it's quality to dip. Still, I'm happy overall and probably will be regardless of what direction they take :)

[White Tiger88]

Matt Ward is the spawn of Satan and a drunken ferret, This animal feeds upon the hopes of those wishing for fair & balanced codex's!

[Wolfshade]

Matt Ward is the spawn of Satan and a drunken ferret, This animal feeds upon the hopes of those wishing for fair & balanced codex's!

I don't even know where to begin with what is wrong with that....

[Power Klawz]

Surely it's the fact they love the hobby why it bothers them so much?

This pretty much sums it up. I've been playing the warhams for like 17 years now, it was a pretty cool part of my childhood and it was something that kept me sane on long deployments when I was in the Navy. (ever try painting a Cadian army in 10 foot seas? haha) Everyone who plays has their own reasons and their own pet peeves, you can't invalidate those by going all right wing fascist on someone.

There's no necessity to define an in-group and an out-group. Trying to delineate between "us" and "them" in the context of a wargaming hobby makes a bigger statement about the person espousing the idea than it does anyone being fallaciously labeled.

As to why someone who can write better than the erstwhile Games Workshop crew would not seek employment with them in an attempt to better the hobby the answer should be pretty self evident. I could probably give 90% of these writers a run for their money and I don't even write for a living, a professional author dreads the fate of those poor sods chained to an aging franchise. When you set out on your grand career as a writer, you don't envision penning tales of power armor clad male fantasies shooting holes through green fungus men.

That's just kind of the place you end up when things don't turn out so well.

[Mr Mystery]

I do love the hobby, and yes, I don't want it's quality to dip. Still, I'm happy overall and probably will be regardless of what direction they take :)

I dunno man. Their's elements out there who do nothing but slag off GW, and typically without any kind of quantifying reason as to why the latest offering is somehow a personal insult aimed directly and solely at them. They are typically the same sort who never appear on Warmachine boards, but keep telling people who aren't in the least bit interested, on account of being quite grown up and thus able to make up their own mind, that it is the besterest game EVAR and if you don't play it you're a poopoo head.

To be fair, I've not seen any of that type stuff in this thread. But there are those who continue to state the author in question is bobbins, without actually explaining why.

And on the Warmaboi thing, I'm with TDA. Wanna play it? Go, play it, enjoy yourself. Just don't tell me I'm a fool for having the temerity to enjoy a hobby game I've invested many thousands of pounds in.

[Learn2Eel]

I do get tired of seeing comments written as if the Apocalypse is nigh and Games Workshop is the home of evil, I think it comes down to some people taking it a bit too seriously. The hobby is fun, and its great to delve into, but I've seen a quite a few hobbyists act as if the world is falling around them and/or actually smash their models because they feel they have been wronged. Case in point about taking the hobby personally; I remember someone getting really angry and almost violent, followed by crying, because they were part of the losing side in an Apocalypse battle. It really is just a game after all, albeit an admittedly expensive one - the hobby in general isn't our "life" after all, it is just a supplement for us to enjoy at our leisure. I think many simply don't understand that mistakes are simply a natural part of life and can't be avoided; critiquing is definitely fine and necessary for GW to keep up the good work and clean out the bad stuff, but some take it a little too far and delve into personal insults and the like. I think the idea of a "leisure" product isn't understood by many either; these are luxury items, not products that are required to satisfy the basic needs of living. It is an "if you want" range, not an "if you can" range in my opinion, though others may of course disagree.

Criticism is necessary to improving products though, and as much as some of the over-the-top aggrieved comments may annoy me, I think it is all justified, no matter what angle you take. That's just my opinion though, because I'm an oddball and I am tired and incoherent :D

[scadugenga]

To scdugenga,

The point I was trying to make is: If you can do it better; why aren't you employed at GW writing the codices?

That's not at all what you were saying with your original rant.

However, I'll respond:

1). That would necessitate moving to Great Britain. I have no interest in transplanting to another country.

2) GW couldn't hope to pay me what I'm currently making in my profession.

3) Being a game designer isn't exactly my calling at this point in my life. 15 years ago, perhaps. But a game designer is also not the most stable of career paths, nor does it have an extended longevity to it.

TDA: what, so we should all be little monkey clones chanting "GW is all powerful and can do no wrong?" You can still love the game and be critical of its shortcomings. And what right do you have, to tell anyone that they should not be able to "be a part of the hobby?" Because they find fault with some aspect of the game? Have you loved every single fluff, rules change, and sculpt put out for the game? If not, then perhaps you should relax your all or nothing stance.

Also, slander would be incorrect--first, because slander is the crime of telling a spoken falsehood (you're thinking of libel), and second--those of us who criticize parts of GW would actually have to be stating an intentional falsehood as fact with the intent to harm the company. Since we are expressing opinion there is no basis for any claim of libel.

[bfmusashi]

Draigo didn't solo Morty. Morty killed tons of guys including the last Supreme Grand Master, Draigo just got his licks in and performed a bit of impromptu graffiti. The daemon primarchs were epic level greater daemons last time they had stats and those guys aren't even that tough. Khorne's favorite Bloodthirster got killed by a half Space Marine inquisitor and his pointy sword. The god of bloodshed's favored minion, his exemplar, got stabbed in the heart and poofed by semi-marine. Morty getting popped by several Grey Knights is not only allowed it's probable.

[OrksOrksOrks]

When I said I loved Mat Ward for all the rage he causes in the sperg-lords, this is exacrtly what I was talking about, this was all very amusing.

Way to write 500 words on why the guy who writes books for your space-barbies isn't as smart as you are. Even if you did win the argument, you'd still be a loser.

[Psychosplodge]

Way to write 500 words on why the guy who writes books for your space-barbies isn't as smart as you are. Even if you did win the argument, you'd still be a loser.

Isn't that more suited for a different forum?:rolleyes:

[scadugenga]

When I said I loved Mat Ward for all the rage he causes in the sperg-lords, this is exacrtly what I was talking about, this was all very amusing.

Way to write 500 words on why the guy who writes books for your space-barbies isn't as smart as you are. Even if you did win the argument, you'd still be a loser.

And this is an example of a pathetic attempt at trolling.

[OrksOrksOrks]

And this is an example of a pathetic attempt at trolling.

You trolled yourself when you got all angry about a dude writing books for a game.

[Lexington]

Matt Ward voted for Zygmunt Molotch! And he killed Pius!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

There's the Mat Ward who is a living, breathing, human being who works for GW, and then there's the internet's Mat Ward, who is a comedy hate figure concocted from purest nerdrage.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Raging about Mat Ward only makes him stronger

[Defenestratus]

Epic troll first post.

[Power Klawz]

This kind of didn't turn out how I supposed though. For some reason, the people who don't hate ward's writing are angrier than the people who do.

[Mr Mystery]

Careful with the tar brush there matey. I only showered this morning.

[Learn2Eel]

Draigo didn't solo Morty. Morty killed tons of guys including the last Supreme Grand Master, Draigo just got his licks in and performed a bit of impromptu graffiti. The daemon primarchs were epic level greater daemons last time they had stats and those guys aren't even that tough. Khorne's favorite Bloodthirster got killed by a half Space Marine inquisitor and his pointy sword. The god of bloodshed's favored minion, his exemplar, got stabbed in the heart and poofed by semi-marine. Morty getting popped by several Grey Knights is not only allowed it's probable.

I think you mean to say that Draigo cut through Mortarion's bodyguard single-handedly and took on a Daemon Primarch alone, as that is what says right here in my Grey Knight codex. Ergo, Draigo soloed not only Mortarion, but apparently a host of either Death Guard or Nurgle Daemons.....either way, it is absolutely non-sensical given the established fluff. That you are also trying to justify the sheer stupidity of a Space Marine defeating a Daemon Primarch by themselves by using Hector Rex as an example - an even more mind-numbingly stupidly written character - is funny. It is not "probable" at all. It is moronic. Remember what happened to all those Grey Knights that tried to take on Angron and his cohort of Bloodthirsters? They were massacred, almost to a man - having to rely on shattering Angron's blade psychically and banishing him as they couldn't beat him conventionally - and you are trying to tell me that the fluff was justified in saying that Draigo would be able to man-handle Mortarion - carving a name into someone's heart, uh-huh - ? The rest of his fluff reaches equally ridiculous heights. Why do you think the 40K community is getting sick of seeing "he killed a Bloodthirster/Avatar" for every second special character? It completely breaks with the established background by making them sound like any decent character can beat them. Killing an Avatar or Bloodthirster is so common nowadays in unit backgrounds that the actual perceived value of killing such a monster is significantly reduced. Not trying to be rude or anything, but as a long-time fan of the hobby, Draigo's fluff actually gives me headaches.

Again, I don't mind Ward whatsoever and I like his codices for the most part too. But Draigo's fluff is utterly banal and hideously delivered.
What should really put your argument to rest is the rules as well....you mention the Epic level Greater Daemons and say that they weren't that impressive, well you should do yourself a favour and have a look at the current rules for both Mortarion and Draigo. Who wins? Mortarion is by far the stronger character in the established rules, and fluff, and Draigo's background breaks with all of that. Not to mention, daemon-empowered Mortarion is one of the most brutal Daemon Primarchs you can face. I don't mean to sound rude, but I still can't believe Ward intentionally wrote something that horrible.

[Psychosplodge]

Bloodthirsters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassDecay) are clearly the new Worf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect)

[bfmusashi]

I think you mean to say that Draigo cut through Mortarion's bodyguard single-handedly and took on a Daemon Primarch alone, as that is what says right here in my Grey Knight codex. Ergo, Draigo soloed not only Mortarion, but apparently a host of either Death Guard or Nurgle Daemons.....either way, it is absolutely non-sensical given the established fluff. That you are also trying to justify the sheer stupidity of a Space Marine defeating a Daemon Primarch by themselves by using Hector Rex as an example - an even more mind-numbingly stupidly written character - is funny. It is not "probable" at all. It is moronic. Remember what happened to all those Grey Knights that tried to take on Angron and his cohort of Bloodthirsters? They were massacred, almost to a man - having to rely on shattering Angron's blade psychically and banishing him as they couldn't beat him conventionally - and you are trying to tell me that the fluff was justified in saying that Draigo would be able to man-handle Mortarion - carving a name into someone's heart, uh-huh - ? The rest of his fluff reaches equally ridiculous heights. Why do you think the 40K community is getting sick of seeing "he killed a Bloodthirster/Avatar" for every second special character? It completely breaks with the established background by making them sound like any decent character can beat them. Killing an Avatar or Bloodthirster is so common nowadays in unit backgrounds that the actual perceived value of killing such a monster is significantly reduced. Not trying to be rude or anything, but as a long-time fan of the hobby, Draigo's fluff actually gives me headaches.

Again, I don't mind Ward whatsoever and I like his codices for the most part too. But Draigo's fluff is utterly banal and hideously delivered.
What should really put your argument to rest is the rules as well....you mention the Epic level Greater Daemons and say that they weren't that impressive, well you should do yourself a favour and have a look at the current rules for both Mortarion and Draigo. Who wins? Mortarion is by far the stronger character in the established rules, and fluff, and Draigo's background breaks with all of that. Not to mention, daemon-empowered Mortarion is one of the most brutal Daemon Primarchs you can face. I don't mean to sound rude, but I still can't believe Ward intentionally wrote something that horrible.

"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten." p38 Codex: Grey Knights
I don't remember another mention of it in the book and there is nothing in there to suggest he did it alone. That the Codex mentions Grey Knights are pragmatic (dirty) fighters several times over I think he didn't play space Link until later.

[Daemonette666]

When it comes to codex writers, I prefer Rick Priestly and Bryan Ansell. Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness circa 1988 and 1990 are my favourite 40K codexes.

[Denzark]

Good shout D666 - although I hate to think what GW would charge for that much fluff/rules nowadays...

[Mr Mystery]

Having not long read those two, much of it has made it's way into the new Daemon Books. Like, word for word....

[Learn2Eel]

"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten." p38 Codex: Grey Knights
I don't remember another mention of it in the book and there is nothing in there to suggest he did it alone. That the Codex mentions Grey Knights are pragmatic (dirty) fighters several times over I think he didn't play space Link until later.

Actually, your quote and point is completely superseded by this quote from page 15;


901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.

Even if he didn't do it alone, it would still be utterly ridiculous. Mortarion as a regular Primarch was insanely powerful and was essentially a one-man army. As a Daemon Primarch, he looks and acts very much like the Grim Reaper - very much a corporeal entity, which makes the whole 'Draigo knocked him down' part mind-numbingly stupid. And, as a Daemon, why would he even have a heart? Why would it matter? As a Daemon, his form shifts and the name on the heart would just disappear anyway. And, as a Daemon Primarch, he is virtually impossible to defeat, no matter what you throw at him. What makes this story even more ludicrous is that Mortarion would have been surrounded by all kinds of lovely stuff - from Deathshroud Terminators to Great Unclean Ones. And Matt Ward thinks that Draigo could have easily gone through all of those. Yeah. Pretty much every-single LGS manager I have ever spoken to thinks Draigo's fluff will be ret-conned, and for good reason. Even if Mortarion was alone, and Draigo had the help of a host of other Grey Knights, it would still have been an incredibly tough fight that Mortarion would likely have won. His presence literally leads to people all around him dieing; Grey Knights may be very strong willed, but even they couldn't resist all the plagues and shroud of death that surround Mortarion. He is called the 'Reaper' for a reason - that and even as a regular Primarch he was by far the toughest of them.

[bfmusashi]

Ah, missed page 15, would you mind citing an entry where Daemon Prince Mortarion is a badass beyond 'the most powerful of a god's servants?' As previously noted the most powerful servants of Chaos die like chumps with an incredible frequency since 2009. Shoot, the only time he had a model as a daemon prince he wasn't that big a deal. Can you find a source for the nature of his bodyguard? Daemons of Nurgle are only formless in the warp, they must create a physical body to manifest. Clearly he isn't impossible to defeat as he dies like a chump. Oh, well, LGS managers totally have their finger on the pulse of GW's writing and aren't just guys that turned their hobby into a job. Cite a source that says Daemon Prince Mortarion is so unstoppable in a fight and not more of a threat in a narrative sense i.e. he destroys worlds by setting foot upon them.
As it stands, Morty is a chump who was lackluster in epic, got to kill some dudes and then another little dude popped him open to practice his cursive. Until I know of a source that isn't some vague 'daemon primarchs are totally powerful' he will be 'the one lamer than Fulgrim.'

[Learn2Eel]

It appears you don't understand that the implication that Draigo makes Mortarion looks like a chump is the real problem here. That, and you are now resorting to a new argument that contradicts your previous one.

Umm, let's see, he is a Daemon Primarch. Remember how powerful Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are? Daemon Primarchs are considered to be more powerful, given that regular Primarchs were able to defeat Greater Daemons and their ilk (Sanguinius defeating Ka'Bandha, who, according to various novella, this website (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ka%27Bandha#.UUSDAawSF8E), codices, etc, was the most powerful Bloodthirster, and Fulgrim defeating an Avatar of Khaine). Actually;

(TLDR is in effect...please note I am not trying to attack you, though I did find your post to be a bit....oddly worded given your previous argument. Don't take this personally, I'm not taking your comments personally either.)


Ah, missed page 15, would you mind citing an entry where Daemon Prince Mortarion is a badass beyond 'the most powerful of a god's servants?'

Obviously I don't need to quote a source seeing as you haven't quoted them yourself, so I'll spell it out instead; how powerful are the Primarchs considered to be? They are gods amongst mortals (Space Marines), as they are portrayed in pretty much every form of the background. Do you think Ahriman - widely considered one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy - would stand even the slightest chance against Magnus, a being that obliterated a titan with his mind before his ascension (A Thousand Sons)? Do you think Kharn - one of the most brutal and powerful Chaos Lords in existence (the Chaos Space Marine codices) - could go toe to toe with Angron, an entity that butchered his way to glory? No, of course not; and that is referring to the pre-Daemon forms of the Primarchs and the empowered forms of the Astartes, too. You can look anywhere, and the fluff supports that notion. As Daemon Primarchs, their powers have even further been raised to ridiculous heights. When Lorgar empowered Angron (but before he became a Daemon Primarch), he became a far more powerful living hailstorm of slaughter; it is heavily implied everywhere that his strength and powers have grown exponentially from there, given his escapades in the Armageddon War. If you want to check facts, how about looking up the Primarchs that went toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons and Avatars of Khaine (who are considered to be of equal strength to Greater Daemons), and how such among them would be considered weaker than their new daemon-primarch equivalents? And in fact, if you want to argue that Greater Daemons are more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs in the fluff, why did Angron have a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters and why was he the most difficult opponent to defeat in that battle, per the recent Black Library novels? In fact, why did Sanguinius defeat the most powerful of the Bloodthirsters (Ka'bandha) but be cut down without a fight by Horus who hadn't even achieved apotheosis?


As previously noted the most powerful servants of Chaos die like chumps with an incredible frequency since 2009.

And as has been proven, typical Greater Daemons, such as those defeated in such stories, do not match the power of the Daemon Primarchs; and they do not lose those battles like 'chumps' either. An exaggeration, they are still tough encounters. The only known Greater Daemon that may put Daemon Primarchs to shame given their background (and yes, I am excluding An'graath as current fluff supports that Ka'bandha is the most powerful) is Aetaeos'rau'keres, as Aetaos" causes worlds to burn to ashes with his mere footsteps. Fluff supporting the rules here; as has been referenced with Sanguinius defeating Ka'bandha and Fulgrim defeating an Avatar, it can be safely assumed that not only is a Primarch of comparable or greater capability than your average Greater Daemon, but a Daemon Primarch would be considerably more-so, as proven by Horus literally flinging Sanguinius aside like a toy owing to his empowerment. That, and Angron wouldn't have been supported by a cohort of Bloodthirsters that were his actual bodyguard if he weren't considered to be far more important to Khorne than they were - and given Khorne only respects power, it isn't hard to make the connection as to why Angron is so heavily favoured.


Shoot, the only time he had a model as a daemon prince he wasn't that big a deal.

And this is relevant....why? You are citing old rules written for older editions where characters were handled in a completely different fashion? I have no idea why you would use this as part of your argument....especially given Mortarion has updated rules that were released last year. A question; have you seen the Horus Heresy: Betrayal book? You might want to have a look at it instead of citing old and out-of-date rules written for different editions. His new and supported rules paint him as a monster that would eat Draigo for breakfast in a game, and then some. I'm not sure why you brought this up. Are you implying he has grown weaker as a Daemon Primarch then?


Can you find a source for the nature of his bodyguard?

Do I need to? What do you think the bodyguard of Nurgle's most favoured servant would be? A host of Plaguebearers? Nurglings? No; a "bodyguard". Would Nurgle - and Mortarion, really - just plod along supported by lesser Daemons? Using Angron as an example, he could very well have been surrounded by a host of Greater Daemons. Given the power of the Deathshroud Terminators though, and their standing in the old Legion, they may very well have been the bodyguard too. Whichever way you slice it, Draigo cutting through all of them single-handed is pretty implausible.


Daemons of Nurgle are only formless in the warp, they must create a physical body to manifest.

Ok, so why would carving a name into Mortarion's "heart" mean anything? His form is corporeal even in the physical world, and all it would take is a thought and that name disappears. Que, it is a pointless plot device added to an already inexplicable pile of garbage writing. The only "insulting" thing about the charade is the fact that it made it to print.


Clearly he isn't impossible to defeat as he dies like a chump.

Again, you have missed the reason why almost everyone complains about Draigo's fluff. The reason is, per the other available evidence on the background, something like that should not have happened. Do I have to repeat myself again? Primarchs could best any Astartes, that is factually proven in any document you can find about them. A Daemon Primarch is a considerably more powerful incarnation of a Primarch. Que, how does a lone Astartes defeat them? Draigo may have a lot of jazz, but he is not a Primarch - widely considered amongst the only beings reliably powerful enough to kill one another. He is not a Daemon Primarch either. So please, explain to me why Draigo defeating Mortarion makes any sense whatsoever. I am waiting. You have not answered it other than to previously argue "Draigo had help" and once that was disproven, you are now contending Mortarion is weak. Are you implying Draigo is as powerful as a Primarch, then?


Oh, well, LGS managers totally have their finger on the pulse of GW's writing and aren't just guys that turned their hobby into a job.

You have again missed the point. What part of my post indicated that LGS managers were inclined to know which way the wind blows? I was stating that they agree that Draigo's fluff is implausible, stupid and should be ret-conned. Surprise, surprise; the big reason for that is the bit concerning Mortarion.


Cite a source that says Daemon Prince Mortarion is so unstoppable in a fight and not more of a threat in a narrative sense i.e. he destroys worlds by setting foot upon them.

Why should l, given that all you have done so far is twist my words and provide no factual evidence to support your claims given the area it concerns most - the overall background concerning the Primarchs - yet you demand it in return. I've got two words to say; common sense. If you have studied the fluff in detail, you should know the Primarchs really were gods amongst men. They weren't called the 'Children of the Emperor' for nothing; each was very much a living, breathing avatar of destruction once set loose on the battlefield - even Lorgar, with little comparison to his brothers, would still best other Astartes with impunity. The 'virtually impossible to defeat' part was quite obviously jargon. I've yet to hear anyone put forward a justifiable reason why any mortal being, including the Astartes, would ever have a chance in one-on-one combat against a Primarch, let alone a Daemon Primarch. What makes Draigo so powerful? Willpower? The same willpower Mortarion used to survive the toxic world of Barbarus? Give me a good reason. "Because it happened"? Because almost everyone under the sun agrees it shouldn't have.


As it stands, Morty is a chump who was lackluster in epic, got to kill some dudes and then another little dude popped him open to practice his cursive.

Lacklustre in epic? How lacklustre is he in 40K, the game Draigo happens to be in? If you want to make a point about rules, do it the right way. Your rules argument is redundant given the Horus Heresy book. And again, you still fail to see why there was a collective outburst of rage from the 40K community about Draigo's fluff, and why Phil Kelly himself made an obvious joke about it in the new Daemons codex (have a look at the Silver Knight entry). It is stupid and non-sensical given the circumstances and background. You yourself based your earlier argument on the presumption that Draigo didn't do it alone, implying they had to fight dirty to beat him. Now you are resorting to implying that Mortarion - and Daemon Primarchs by extension - aren't as powerful as has been made out by every single relevant codex, Black Library story and wiki entry. If you can provide a solid reason why a Daemon Primarch would meet their match in an Astartes that had just fought through a host of other entities by themselves, I would applaud. Otherwise, you demanding evidence on my part is more proof that you have none yourself to support your claim.


Until I know of a source that isn't some vague 'daemon primarchs are totally powerful' he will be 'the one lamer than Fulgrim.'

You mean Fulgrim, the guy that butchered Roboute Guilliman and Ferrus Manus, the former of which is barely clinging to life? Yeah, really a bad thing to be 'lamer' than Fulgrim, the only known individual to kill two Primarchs....yeah, great point you are making. If you want to put it that way, Angron must have been lamer than Fulgrim as well, and what did Angron do to all those Grey Knights again? Ok. Oh, and Sanguinius is apparently lamer than Fulgrim too - he got killed by Horus, who was also lamer than Fulgrim because he only murdered one Primarch and almost killed the Emperor, a living god. Uh-huh. Until I know of a source that says "a Space Marine can easily take on a Daemon Primarch, let alone a regular Primarch, and do so with the added bonus of carving a name into their heart" Draigo will be "Matt Ward's colossal failure". If you really want to go deeper and use that point about rules again, I implore you try out Mortarion's standard Primarch form against Kaldor Draigo and see who wins. In fact, try and throw any Primarch into the ring with any other single character and watch the result.

Citing The Emperor's Gift, a book concerning Angron butchering all those hapless Grey Knights, it is implied that the mere presence of a Daemon Primarch is enough to kill even the most stalwart of foes; Grey Knights Terminators are described as literally dieing and being ripped apart. Their presence completely bends the laws of reality and physics that to walk amongst them is to invite death - that doesn't even begin to start on what it would be like to actually engage one. Now, Angron is obviously a different beast to Mortarion, but Mortarion is still a monster in his own right - though less a brutal whirlwind of death, he has always been described as nauseating enemies with his deadly toxins, even before his ascension. That, and he has always been known as the toughest of the Primarchs; his combat abilities were never sub-par either. Given all that, I fail to see why Draigo would even stand the tiniest chance against him. If we want to go further when discussing your earlier implication that Daemon Primarchs were weaker than Greater Daemons, in Fear to Tread, Sanguinius struggles to kill a Bloodthirster (the most powerful known Bloodthirster at that), but Sanguinius eventually defeats it twice - the latter time by breaking its back. Even so, he defeats it twice, both times with the odds stacked against him owing to other circumstances. Against a daemonically empowered Horus, all Sanguinius - widely regarded as one of the most powerful Primarchs - could do was leave a chink in Horus' armour. Horus was daemonically empowered, but had not achieved apotheosis. What does that tell you? That Draigo could defeat Mortarion and his bodyguard single-handedly?

TLDR:

Sorry if my argument seems a bit heated, that isn't my intention at all. However, if you don't believe me about why so many people despise Ward purely for the Grey Knights codex (more specifically, Draigo) - and that is acceptable - then I recommend reading through threads such as these (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?295405-Draigo-The-pinnacle-of-bad-fluff). Remember when the Grey Knight codex came out and you couldn't help but see complaints about the bad fluff writing? All those threads express better than my own words ever could how I feel about Draigo. Again, as an avid 40K fan, it literally pains me to think an author intentionally wrote something like that. In the fluff, heroes that have performed great deeds against the odds typically did it with assistance, or there was justification behind it. Ward's writing is akin to a twelve year old, by making his characters win in the arena alone for no reason other than they are 'stronger', when there is often little justification for that either. What justification is there for Draigo to have defeated Mortarion? None.

It is made all the worse that Draigo was quite obviously written as the Grey Knight counter-part to Abaddon - a ten-thousand year old legend and harbinger of the apocalypse - and despite being far younger and having far lesser gifts and weaponry, is apparently far more powerful for no reason other than he is. Hence the 'Matt Ward logic' memes; "that character is uber powerful because he is", not "that character is a hero because he did this to accomplish this with the aid of this". There's no real rhyme or reason to a lot of his background. The fact that Draigo even survives in the Warp for as long as he has goes even more against the grain; I don't really see it, but it justifies the impression many have that Ward has little respect for the established fluff if it gets in the way of creating his 'uber-characters'. I would however like to make mention of the fact that at least Draigo's fluff in terms of actually being sucked into the warp is a bit more plausible when one realises everything he 'destroys' simply regenerates; ergo, he actually does little of note. The main problem is execution....it is horrible in every sense of the word, no less so than the idea of a mortal defeating Death itself, but whatever. Also trying to figure out how a Space Marine managed to hold down a gigantic Daemon Primarch...but ok.

Actually, don't get me started on the fact that the Chaos Gods don't just kill him when he invades their territory......unless we want to bring up the "he's a pawn of Chaos (Tzeentch)" story, which is about the only plausible way to justify his fluff.

[Psychosplodge]

Good shout D666 - although I hate to think what GW would charge for that much fluff/rules nowadays...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcfFlUO-kQ-wFt8URmfbmnSnSJXKw_kuMqRB8ExiA734vQKchh

[bfmusashi]

I want to point out up front, I like 40k because it is a very stupid place. I like it most when it doesn't care that it's stupid and embraces the very stupid place it is, but it has to follow it's rules.
My point, that Draigo's fluff does not invalidate any preexisting canon, stands. You've noted page 15 and I quoted page 38 of the Grey Knights codex and it's clear the codex puts Draigo in charge of rocking Mortarion. Mortarion who is some combination of Greater Daemon, who get banished hilariously,* and a primarch, who die like punks** or run away so hard reality breaks.*** He also got his daemonhood through his amazing landscaping skills, not martial skill (Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned). He's a gardener, he even carries around a scythe. I used epic as it's the only game system daemon prince Mortarion exists in. In my experience he died to devastator companies a lot. Oddly, Grey Knights didn't seem very effective, but this was back when they had bolters-on-a-stick. If he is anything more than this in the current fluff I would like to see a source. We've quoted Draigo beating him up, but nothing showing Mortarion as anything but some poor immortal farmer getting jumped by a killing machine. I am not the loremaster of 40k, but if everyone knows Mortarion is hard to banish as a daemon prince then it shouldn't be hard to find the source of why, though it seems beyond my abilities.
What I want to know, is when Draigo had him opened up for cardio-calligraphy if Morty was like a Great Unclean One. Where there tiny Morts inside? Is this where the Watchers in the Dark come from? Do they spend all their time on the Rock tending plants? I gots to know.

*An'ggrath (Seige of Vrax part 3 pg.69) as stated earlier. It might be fun to compile a list of these one day.
** Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman, Vulkan (?), and Konrad Cruze.
*** Leman Russ, Vulkan (?), Lion El'Jonson, Jaghtai Khan, Fulgrim, and Corvus Corax.

[Lexington]

Mortarion who is some combination of Greater Daemon, who get banished hilariously,* and a primarch, who die like punks** or run away so hard reality breaks.***
Everything's canonical when you present canon as parody? Shocker. :rolleyes:

'Course, "canonicity" and other such isn't the problem with Ward's writing, or the other background failures of the 5th Ed era, but that's not really important here. Threads like this make it pretty clear that there's just not much interest in good faith discussion on the topic - mostly just a bunch of people aggrieved that such a hackjob was being done on a fictional entity that they enjoy, and those who'll go to sad, absurd lengths to prod at them. Thankfully, the Ward-dominated era of 40K background seems to be behind us, so maybe threads like this will finally die.

[Learn2Eel]

I want to point out up front, I like 40k because it is a very stupid place. I like it most when it doesn't care that it's stupid and embraces the very stupid place it is, but it has to follow it's rules.
My point, that Draigo's fluff does not invalidate any preexisting canon, stands.

Of course. It isn't there to win Pulitzer Prizes. But as you say, it has to follow its own rules. And actually, any previous fluff on the Primarchs is invalidated by that fight. Why? You still haven't explained why Draigo has the power to defeat Mortarion, and that is the real problem with Ward's writing. He doesn't explain why Draigo could defeat Mortarion and do all the other things he did. There's no justification for what he does, only that he does it - given that no mortal being can survive in the warp for very long (the Warp energies tear apart the physical 'projection' or body, and then there are the soul-hunting lovelies known as Screamers amongst all else), and that he smites Greater Daemons as if they are chumps, you would think there is a good reason. Nope. None is ever provided, and that is perhaps the biggest flaw with Draigo's fluff. If actual, proper reasons were provided as to why he could defeat Mortarion - and seriously, you need to use common sense if you think a Daemon Primarch is not powerful - then I wouldn't have a problem with it, as would many thousands of others that share my opinion, but no. Just "he did it". That is the work of an infantile mind, not a professional author, and it is a break in the fluff owing to the fact that Mortarion/Primarchs were powerful. You can't seriously expect me to quote that last part as it is common sense. They were the equivalent of Greater Daemons in their mortal years, and in their daemonhood they have grown far stronger.


You've noted page 15 and I quoted page 38 of the Grey Knights codex and it's clear the codex puts Draigo in charge of rocking Mortarion.

Yes, and for no justifiable reason. Listen to this, assuming this is the first entry we've seen on the Swarmlord; "The Swarmlord was birthed, watching as Marneus Calgar's Ultramarines cleansed the Tyranids from Macragge. It strode down to the blood-soaked plains, and there it engaged Calgar in fateful single combat; smiting his bodyguard with ease. Though a great hero of the Imperium, Calgar fell to the monstrous beast - being tossed aside like a weakling imposter." Notice anything there? Where's the justification for the Swarmlord beating Calgar? What makes the Swarmlord so powerful? What actual abilities does it have that allow it to defeat someone as mighty as Marneus Calgar? What are its strengths? How did it actually beat him? These are the same questions you must ask of Draigo's fluff, and it is why his fluff is not supported by any factual evidence. It is the mark of a terrible author; "he defeats 'X' because he does". No rhyme or reason whatsoever, and given Mortarion is a Daemon-Primarch - described in the Liber Chaotica as amongst the most powerful entities in existence. The narrative perspective actually describes Mortarion as "death itself". So tell me, how did Draigo defeat Mortarion? What did he use? What did he do? How did he do it? What gives Draigo such power? What powers does he have? What? Why? This is why his background provides a suspension of belief, as there is literally no explanation or reason provided for him smacking through several of the most powerful beings you can encounter in this 'universe'. The Swarmlord's fluff is justified, unlike Draigo's; it is described numerous times as an age-old warrior that is as ancient as the Tyranid race itself, it is described as the most supreme warrior amongst a sub-species of warriors that are far more powerful even than Space Marine Captains and Chapter Masters. He wields several blades with alien crystals that can pierce any defence, and has unnatural speed in combat. This is also where the fluff actually supports the rules. Unlike Draigo, who has no real justified fluff other than "he did this, he killed that". How? Until Ward answers that - or another author - you can never justify what actions he performed.


Mortarion who is some combination of Greater Daemon, who get banished hilariously,* and a primarch, who die like punks** or run away so hard reality breaks.*** He also got his daemonhood through his amazing landscaping skills, not martial skill (Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned).

To be fair, quoting Hector Rex isn't the best idea to support Draigo's background. His fluff is even more ridiculous than Draigo's. But unlike Draigo, his battle with Angraath was actually properly described and actually given justification - even if it still doesn't really mesh with our pre-conceived ideas of Greater Daemons. He knew Angraath's true name, which already gives one a massive edge over any Daemon as it allows them to be banished with far greater ease. Draigo is obviously well equipped, but as well equipped as Rex? Not on your life. There's nothing to suggest that Draigo's equipment gives him an edge - aside from what you would expect from a Grey Knight - and it even rings true with impossibility given that only the Emperor himself could possibly survive for so long in the warp as a physical entity without the intervention/manipulation of a Chaos God (I forget my sourcing, but I have seen that mentioned numerous times). The implication in his background is that Daemons fear him - given they now ignore him, aside from Khorne Daemons - which is completely and utterly ridiculous no matter which way you look at it. In all of Draigo's stories, again, there is no reason or justification provided for him to perform the acts that he does. None, at all. He just does them. Again, if a good reason was provided that he is so fluff-breakingly powerful - and reading through it, he apparently can (jargon) 'laugh' at a Chaos God, meaning that Ward is implying either they are toying with him and thus his fluff is meaningless or that Ward thinks he is a being of god-like power - then it would be fine. Either way, it again does not really sit well. Getting back to Hector Rex, Angraath was not "banished hilariously"; it was a two page long struggle that was very close in the end, even despite Rex knowing Angraath's true name. His fight was given far more time than the minor footnote Draigo and Mortarion had, and citing the restraints of a codex structure would prove that the battle either should have been fleshed out elsewhere, or not mentioned at all. All we know is that "Draigo did this" but there are no details, given that any encounter with a Daemon Primarch should be suitably titanic. If it was Lorgar, perhaps I could understand, but not the physical embodiment of the grim reaper.

As for Primarchs dieing like punks, I have to call you out on that one. Ferrus Manus was killed by a fellow daemonically-empowered Primarch wielding a blade possessed by a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh. He was bested by a superior swordsman (Fulgrim - the novel, also any concurrent fluff given that was Fulgrim's specialty) wielding daemonic powers. Rogal Dorn, who took a lone contingent of Imperial Fists deep into the heart of the fleet about to enact the First Black Crusade - headed by Abaddon, no less - and died as part of a delaying action against hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chaos Space Marines. Roboute Guilliman, who was also struck down by a daemonically-possessed Fulgrim wielding a poisoned blade - that same Fulgrim that was regarded as one of the best duelists in the galaxy (Fulgrim) and was that point believed to have achieved apotheosis (Angel Exterminatus). Vulkan isn't dead, he willingly departed and left his legion with the instructions to find his scattered relics, and that he would return in the End Times (the Space Marine codices, amongst others). And your last one, Konrad, is the least believable. You do realize he both allowed the Callidus Assassin to enter his chambers - no guards were posted - and that the common belief is that he allowed himself to die? This passage from Index Astartes II shows just why he allowed that to happen;


"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

Not the best examples you could have used to say some of the Primarchs "died like punks" - none of them did. Kurze - or "Night Haunter" - likely accepted his death due to the fact that it proved everything he believed about the Emperor and mankind.


He's a gardener, he even carries around a scythe. I used epic as it's the only game system daemon prince Mortarion exists in. In my experience he died to devastator companies a lot. Oddly, Grey Knights didn't seem very effective, but this was back when they had bolters-on-a-stick. If he is anything more than this in the current fluff I would like to see a source.

The gardener bit is obviously light humour - which I do find funny by the way :) But this is what really irks me - you are using old rules in an old game, despite the fact that his new rules in the most concurrently supported game far outweigh what you suggest. With citation from The Horus Heresy - Betrayal. You asked - and these aren't exact quotes to keep the legal guys happy, by the way.


Mortarion the Reaper

WS7 BS5 S6 T7 W7 I5 A5 LD10 SV +2
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)
Wargear:
The Barberan Plate - The Barberan Plate provides a +2 Armour save and a +4 Invulnerable save.
Silence - Range: - S: +1 AP: 2 Type: Melee, Instant Death, Sunder*, Unwieldy, Two-handed, Sweep Attack**
The Lantern - Range: 18" S: 8 AP: 2 Type: Assault 1, Sunder*
Phosphex Bombs (Mortarion carries unique ones) - Range: 12" S: 5 AP: 2 Type: Assault 1, Blast (3"), Poisoned (+3), Crawling Fire***, Lingering Death****

Special Rules (I won't bother with the ones that affect the army, as we are talking about how strong Mortarion is):
Shadow of the Reaper - Fear tests against Mortarion are resolved at -1 to enemy Leadership. In the shooting phase - instead of running or shooting - he can attempt to pass a Leadership test and, if successful, move up to 10" and still launch an assault that turn, counting as a disordered charge.
Preternatural Resilience (I will quote the fluff section here as well given it is relevant to my earlier argument about Mortarion's durability) - Mortarion's resilience and stamina are legend, and it has been said that of all the Primarchs none were more able to shrug off injury and torment as he, and of all none had endured more in their lives before the Emperor had reclaimed them.
Mortarion re-rolls any failed Toughness tests or 'It Will Not Die!' rolls. Mortarion automatically passes any Dangerous Terrain tests. Any weapon which wounds on a flat D6 roll (Poisoned Weapons, Fleshbane, etc) instead only affect Mortarion on a D6 roll of a 6.
Witch Spite - Mortarion passes any Deny the Witch roll on a +4.
Primarch - Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion)

* - Re-roll failed armour penetration rolls when using this weapon.
** - A model with this special rule may - in lieu of their normal attacks - make a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them.
*** - After the blast marker has been placed, it can be moved up to 2" to cover more models.
**** - Note the final position of the blast marker; that area is treated as dangerous terrain by any models with a Toughness value and open-topped vehicles for the rest of the game.

In Games Workshops' main game based on the Warhammer 40000 universe, he will eat Draigo for breakfast beyond a shadow of a doubt, as well as any other Grey Knight unit you can think of. Ergo, according to the rules, he 'beats Draigo like a punk'. And funnily enough, he actually has justified reasons for doing so, not 'Draigo beat Mortarion because he can' - which again, is the main problem here.


We've quoted Draigo beating him up, but nothing showing Mortarion as anything but some poor immortal farmer getting jumped by a killing machine. I am not the loremaster of 40k, but if everyone knows Mortarion is hard to banish as a daemon prince then it shouldn't be hard to find the source of why, though it seems beyond my abilities.

Draigo beating him up from an unreliable perspective that offers no insight into the how or why, as I have explained in detail above, and breaks with both the rules and pre-established fluff based on the strength of the Primarchs relative to the Astartes (the Index Astartes series, a whole range of novella including but not limited to Horus Rising, Fulgrim, A Thousand Sons, The First Heretic, Deliverance Lost, etc). All you seem to be basing your argument on now is the fact that it made it to print, when the very reason we are arguing here is because it doesn't mesh with other sources. If you want to use Rex again, he actually had some justification for defeating Angraath. Draigo has no reason whatsoever for beating Mortarion - he just does and it makes absolutely no sense unless we have some kind of reason, given what we know about the Primarchs. A killing machine that, again, has no justified reason for being that way. Ward did not think Draigo's fluff through, at all. He just wrote down a bunch of accomplishments and didn't stop to think that he would actually have to justify the deeds that Draigo would commit - it wouldn't surprise me if Ward avoided explaining the details simply because any kind of explanation would have been received poorly, but what we got instead was something worse where Draigo is just a cannonball wrecking what old Chaos players know and love about their fluff. Draigo is an insult to classic fans from the Lost and the Damned era - he smote the walls of the Inevitable City apparently, despite the fact it is an endless nightmarish realm that twists eternally and thus the idea of him burying a Greater Daemon there is redundant and - frankly - idiotic. He hacked apart Slaanesh's handmaidens for no reason - Slaanesh attempted to coerce Draigo, remembering that Slaanesh is described everywhere as being completely unapproachable by mortal eyes (Fantasy novels, 40K novels, the Liber Chaotica, the Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons codices, you name them). But no, Draigo - for no reason whatsoever - is completely immune, and we all know Slaanesh hates being insulted. Why didn't Slaanesh just kill him? Slaanesh is a Chaos God. Again, unless Ward was subtly trying to imply Draigo is being manipulated - thus making his 'accomplishments' pointless and non-existent - he must be as powerful as a Chaos God to openly defy them in their vicinity. Why? How the hell is a mortal - an Astartes - so powerful? The only 'mortal' being described as being able to accomplish such feats - including stalking the Warp itself - is the Emperor. Does that mean Draigo is the Emperor re-incarnate, or a champion of the Emperor possessed of his divine might? Nope, as Ward doesn't tell us. He doesn't tell us anything. Only that Draigo makes the Harbinger of the Apocalypse - Abaddon - look like a pansy by comparison for no reason. Abaddon, the guy who is marked by all of the Chaos Gods, commands legions of super-humans, wields an artefact once carried by a Primarch, and possesses a daemon-blade of untold power - and, ironically, kicks Draigo's butt in a fight in the game. No, again, for no reason whatsoever - no justification, no explanation - Draigo can do anything Abaddon does, only better. This is why almost everyone despises Draigo's fluff - if a good reason was provided, there would be no issue. But there never was - he is a cannonball that can scythe through the ethereal.

Per the Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine codices, as well as the Liber Chaotica and numerous other sources, Daemon Primarchs only ever appear in the most titanic of clashes, far rarer than any other Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon. Their existence warps reality so much that they simply can't be summoned except in times of untold bloodshed and carnage. Banishing them, in turn, is far more difficult than for regular Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, mostly due to actually trying to survive in their presence - let alone face them.


What I want to know, is when Draigo had him opened up for cardio-calligraphy if Morty was like a Great Unclean One. Where there tiny Morts inside? Is this where the Watchers in the Dark come from? Do they spend all their time on the Rock tending plants? I gots to know.

*An'ggrath (Seige of Vrax part 3 pg.69) as stated earlier. It might be fun to compile a list of these one day.
** Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman, Vulkan (?), and Konrad Cruze.
*** Leman Russ, Vulkan (?), Lion El'Jonson, Jaghtai Khan, Fulgrim, and Corvus Corax.

I laughed! :D The idea of a giant grim reaper mowing a lawn is priceless!

Again, don't mistake me for getting a 'temper' against you - it's the whole 'one sentence could have saved Ward a whole heap of criticism' part that gets me. I don't like it when so many people have a go at the game, either. When I first heard about Draigo and why everyone hated him, I didn't understand why - mostly, I tried to defend it. Then I read through it, thought about it - including remembering the good old days - and simply shook my head. It's the idea that he could have avoided all that unnecessary criticism and abuse with the smallest of touches.

[Learn2Eel]

Everything's canonical when you present canon as parody? Shocker. :rolleyes:

'Course, "canonicity" and other such isn't the problem with Ward's writing, or the other background failures of the 5th Ed era, but that's not really important here. Threads like this make it pretty clear that there's just not much interest in good faith discussion on the topic - mostly just a bunch of people aggrieved that such a hackjob was being done on a fictional entity that they enjoy, and those who'll go to sad, absurd lengths to prod at them. Thankfully, the Ward-dominated era of 40K background seems to be behind us, so maybe threads like this will finally die.

I don't mind the rest of the fluff. But Draigo's is a sore thumb, and not just from a 40K stand-point, but a literary one as well. It's a double-tap, but mostly, it annoys me because it really is insulting to anyone that's followed the game for a long time. When I was a kid, greater daemons - let alone the Primarchs - were these awesome beings that everyone feared. Now, muppets like Draigo beat them as if they are playing Spore with god mode enabled. I'm not really getting worked up - just the whole thing annoys me a lot. I love the hobby, but mostly to play games - the fluff is secondary to me. But it rubs me the wrong way when there is a collective outcry about something that really does ruin what we know, and I agree with their views. If Ward had said "Draigo was possessed of powers granted by the Emperor himself" or some other nonsense, there would be no problem. It would still be silly, but that one sentence could have literally stopped all the negative outcry about the character. I'll stick up for Ward any day, given I like his codices, but the fact that one little sentence could have stopped all that negativity is what irks me the most. That this thread was even created is proof enough that people aren't happy, and if they aren't happy, their support of the hobby falters. I don't want GW to be out of business in ten years owing to a string of bad business decisions, and in a hobby where many are so tightly wound up in either the rules or the fluff, missteps like Ward's regarding Draigo can and will throw some off of the game. Not that I think the game will be out of business in ten years, nor do I think the Draigo thing will seriously affect anything, but when I can walk into a game store and hear multiple people - including managers - smack-talking about Draigo in reference to how bad it is, there's probably something up. All it takes is for the next Grey Knight codex to either expand on his deeds and explain why he is so strong - or retcon the more ridiculous stuff - and we are a-ok! Given Phil Kelly's cheeky stab at Draigo in the Daemons codex, it looks like this will be the case :D

Come to think of it - as silly as it sounds - I have actually heard of Sisters of Battle players abandoning the hobby not just because of the White Dwarf codex, but also because of the way their army is constantly being portrayed in the fluff. The 'Khornate Knights' issue rears its head here. It just goes to show how much a lot of these individuals are passionate about their hobby, I guess. Again, I'm not really angry about the Draigo debacle, more-so that in light of everything else I've read, it is very silly when taken in context - that, and it was terribly written.

[bfmusashi]

I'm not going to get mad when we're talking about silly geek things. It's supposed to be fun. I've just found the best approach seems to be finding bits of a universe's background that support a side otherwise you might end up being the guy who's just upset his guy didn't win... and no one wants to be that guy, but we've all been that guy. I like Mort as he seems to be the only daemon primarch that remembers how to have a good time. I think he's in the new daemons codex blowing up obese orks, I like to imagine he was smiling at how awesome his plan was.

[Learn2Eel]

Hey, I'm not getting mad either :) I enjoy our argument, we are both using established sources to support our views and it is all nice and controlled! No qualms or hard feelings from me! I just disagree is all, and I'm in one of my "I must write" moods lol. Tell you what, I'll stop here because I probably am coming off as a bit of a petulant child, and I don't want to be thought of in that way. And yes, I can see I've misunderstood that you are approaching it from a lighter view-point. My bad!

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Normally a TLDR doesn't catch my attention like that, but that was indeed a fascinating read, and I learned a lot.

He did something similar though with Imotek the Stormlord, who defeated a farseer by drawing him into a trap. I mean sure Eldar can get a bit arrogant at times, and sure that can be partially blinding, but how can you hide that obvious of a trap from a Farseer, who can see into the future. That one never quite sat right with me, it just seemed silly, and I like most of the Necron fluff, even if its mostly just a rebranding of tomb kings in space.

[Kyle Gaddy]

I started 40k in September of 2012 (not long ago). I was going through the gw website and trying to decide on an army to start with. The GKs really caught my eye, and since I knew nothing about the game, I bought my models and a codex and started hobbying. To my dismay, new friends at the club would sneer at me for choosing GK because of Matt Ward. There really was a big stink about OP Draigowing and other silly shenanigans. I do agree that he was writing a codex geared for 6th edition before 6th was out. The stink seems to have died down a bit, but I heard people quietly sobbing in corners about the GK fluff. Oh well, I am so financially sucked into this army that I am going to see it through and enjoy all the fun stuff that comes with the GKs.

[Mr Mystery]

They're likely not sneering because of Mr Ward, but because they're elitist bellends.

Yo wanna play Grey Knights? Then yo play Grey Knights bro!

[Learn2Eel]

I started 40k in September of 2012 (not long ago). I was going through the gw website and trying to decide on an army to start with. The GKs really caught my eye, and since I knew nothing about the game, I bought my models and a codex and started hobbying. To my dismay, new friends at the club would sneer at me for choosing GK because of Matt Ward. There really was a big stink about OP Draigowing and other silly shenanigans. I do agree that he was writing a codex geared for 6th edition before 6th was out. The stink seems to have died down a bit, but I heard people quietly sobbing in corners about the GK fluff. Oh well, I am so financially sucked into this army that I am going to see it through and enjoy all the fun stuff that comes with the GKs.

Trust me mate, don't ever feel guilty about purchasing an army if others don't like the army you pick. As much as Grey Knights were quite ridiculous in 5th Edition, they are very much a balanced codex in 6th Edition. That, and their models are ace :) Even then, they are your models and your money; if you enjoy them, that is all that matters.

[Deadlift]

I will keep this much shorter than those monstrous posts above :)

But Matt Ward is long over due a 40k codex. I hope he does the next space marine one, I miss his funky rules and how he turns 40k on its head ;)

[Learn2Eel]

I will keep this much shorter than those monstrous posts above :)

But Matt Ward is long over due a 40k codex. I hope he does the next space marine one, I miss his funky rules and how he turns 40k on its head ;)

I'm willing to bet that the reason we haven't seen him so far since 6th Edition dropped (aside from Fantasy Daemons) is that he has been working on the Space Marine codex, by far the most arduous work of any codex. However, given that (apparently) Phil Kelly has said he isn't doing Eldar, it is altogether possible Ward is bringing Eldar right back into the fore too. I am also curious to see if Cruddace features in either of the next two codices. So far we've had two Kelly codices and two Vetock codices. I'm expecting Ward and Cruddace are handling the next two, unless Cruddace is dedicated to Fantasy army books now (of which he is very apt with).

[Lexington]

I'm willing to bet that the reason we haven't seen him so far since 6th Edition dropped (aside from Fantasy Daemons) is that he has been working on the Space Marine codex, by far the most arduous work of any codex.
I think Vetock already did the heavy lifting for the Space Marine Codex with his Dark Angels book. ;)

Really, I wouldn't be surprised if Ward's name remained absent from 40K Codexes for some time. It's probably well understood at GW that his work carries a bad reputation in a large portion of their customer base, and maybe within the company as well. 6th Ed's been pretty nice without him so far.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I think Vetock already did the heavy lifting for the Space Marine Codex with his Dark Angels book. ;)

Really, I wouldn't be surprised if Ward's name remained absent from 40K Codexes for some time. It's probably well understood at GW that his work carries a bad reputation in a large portion of their customer base, and maybe within the company as well. 6th Ed's been pretty nice without him so far.


Except, you know, he wrote the rule book

Interesting note here, LearnToEel has written more words hating on Mat Ward than there are in the wikipedia entry for William Shakespere. Frothy.

[Lexington]

Except, you know, he wrote the rule book
Well, he co-wrote it, with Vetock and Adam Troke, which shows pretty heavily. Since then, Ward's only written the Daemon book for Fantasy, while Vetock's had two subsequent Codexes, including the first non-Ward Space Marine Codex since 4th Edition. All speculation, but that seems like a patten to me.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. More of an anecdote.

We don't know what's coming next or who is writing it. Could be Mr Ward is working on 3 books at once.

[bfmusashi]

He didn't write Space Wolves Lex, I wouldn't read that much into it. And don't confuse vocality for quantity when it comes to the Ward hate.

[Deadlift]

He didn't write Space Wolves Lex, I wouldn't read that much into it. And don't confuse vocality for quantity when it comes to the Ward hate.

Exactly, I personally love his rules. The necron codex was brilliant. No real bad choices and tons of flavour. Sure some players exploited the Nightscythe etc, but remember GW don't write rules for tournaments but casual fun games and its the WAAC types that spam units for competative play. The rest of us buy and play models we like the look of and for the "story" behind the army.

[Psychosplodge]

The beast we call the Desolate One. The First of the Fallen. The Despoiler of Virgins

Right now that's answered...