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Darkseer
08-01-2009, 04:24 AM
We'd all like to gain some extra inches (fnar fnar!), but one recurring thing I'm seeing lately is people moving a vehicle 12", then pivoting it on the spot, gaining an extra few inches, before disembarking their troops.

I'm sure there was some kind of ruling against this years ago after a fiasco with a Limosinesque Ork Battlewagon which could pivot around, gaining an additional 10 inches!!

bob
08-01-2009, 05:13 AM
I always thought you can only pivot from the centre of the model, making it so you would'nt gain anything by it, except of course changing your facing. As doing what you describe sounds like measuring from the front of a model and then placing the back of it twelve inchs away

ebolus
08-01-2009, 05:25 AM
Remember that pivoting does not count as a move.
You can move a total of 12 inches, pivot how much you want on the way, then disembark.
p57 in BBB:
"Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than 'wheeling' round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move."
and:
"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary..."

CrusherJoe
08-01-2009, 05:30 AM
I think bob and ebolus have it right, you certainly can pivot at the end of your movement, but only around the center axis of the vehicle. You won't gain any "free inches" of movement doing that. If anyone tries to pivot any other way they're doing it wrong. :)

Darkseer
08-01-2009, 06:41 AM
Yes, but the current Ork Battlewagon model is an open topped vehicle and a rectangle shape.

So you do gain an extra inch or two when pivoting it on its central axis from the side facing to the front facing.

bob
08-01-2009, 06:58 AM
Yes but how often do you move a vehicle forward with the side in front .i.e driving crab style.
Or did i miss the point of what you said?

N-Bomb
08-01-2009, 07:02 AM
Yes you can pivot before, during, and after movement (thus keeping movement quick), but since its measured from the axis technically you could gain an extra inch in the desired direction, but keep in mind if you wanted to move in the direction you just moved again you would repivot in that direction thus nullifying the previous pivot.

CrusherJoe
08-01-2009, 07:08 AM
Hmm...I seem to remember some rule stating that you can't ever complete a vehicle move/pivot and end up gaining a final position that was further than you would have gotten without the pivot. Now I'm going to have to look it up...

...well, with only a quick skimming here and there the only thing I can come up with that's even close to what I was thinking about is the diagram entitled "Moving Models" on pg. 12 of the BGB -- which clearly illustrates you're not supposed to get more than the specified movement from whatever vehicle facing you start measuring with.

I think that's the solution right there: always measure from the same part of the vehicle to get total distance moved by that one specific part -- and that part can't travel any further than the movement rate of the vehicle.

I'm not sure if I'm making that clear or not (or, more importantly, if that's 100% correct). What do you guys think?

ebolus
08-01-2009, 07:21 AM
But since pivoting does not count as a move, you are free to pivot after the move is completed. The example on page 12 stresses that if you measure 12" from the front, then you have to measure that distance to the front of your vehicle after the move is completed - not to the rear - that would mean several "cheating" inches.

Abominable Plague Marine
08-01-2009, 07:29 AM
Gaining even one free pivoting inch, is in my opinion, not in the spirit of the game.

bob
08-01-2009, 07:32 AM
But since pivoting does not count as a move, you are free to pivot after the move is completed. The example on page 12 stresses that if you measure 12" from the front, then you have to measure that distance to the front of your vehicle after the move is completed - not to the rear - that would mean several "cheating" inches.

If anyone did that i'd pack up my army and walk away.

After checking they understood why

It might seem a bit extreme, but come on, thats just not on

CrusherJoe
08-01-2009, 07:34 AM
Oh boy I know I'm getting punchy because I'm pretty tired...so that's my caveat...but I'm pretty sure if you measure from Point A (beginning of move) on a certain part of a vehicle (let's say the frontmost part of the left-side track of a Leman Russ) to Point B (end of move, INCLUDING any pivoting) using the same frontmost part of the left-side track of that Leman Russ you're not going to get any "free" movement. The thing is, you measure the total distance that one part of the hull has moved so you have a consistant reference point for measuring.

...I think. Someone that's not comatose from the neck up please either confirm or deny? :)

chachi
08-01-2009, 08:11 AM
...well, with only a quick skimming here and there the only thing I can come up with that's even close to what I was thinking about is the diagram entitled "Moving Models" on pg. 12 of the BGB -- which clearly illustrates you're not supposed to get more than the specified movement from whatever vehicle facing you start measuring with.

I think that's the solution right there: always measure from the same part of the vehicle to get total distance moved by that one specific part -- and that part can't travel any further than the movement rate of the vehicle.

I think that's it... At least, this is the rule I follow when moving my vehicles. If I know I'm going to pivot 90 degrees with a side facing, I'll go ahead and pivot before the move and then measure from there so I stay within the 12 inches.

GrandReaper
08-01-2009, 08:25 AM
Well, it is possible that a pivot will allow you to move over your normal move distance, but it is only in very specific circumstances. Basically, what you want to move towards must be in the flank of the vehicle you're moving and your vehicle must be longer than it is wide (which most are). But the pivot doesn't have to be at the end of your move. If you pivot to face the target and then move the 12" you still gained the 1" or so from the free pivot, just due to how pivoting a rectangle around its centerpoint works.

However, since we pivot around the middle, multiple pivots will not gain more free distance.

Zigmunth
08-01-2009, 08:57 AM
Well that's the situation War of the Rings solved perfectly. Basically, none of the corners of the company base can't end up more then the movement allowed. You can twist and turn your base as long as it keeps you withing your movemnt distance.

40k should have that rule: yes you can pivot after you moved but none of the corners of the vehicle shouldn't exceed 6" or 12". But... to simplify the rules I think it should be that the models center should not move more than whatever it can move. Than small tweaks and little cheats would be available for all.

That's what I think.

Ferro
08-01-2009, 10:29 PM
Ya, I still don't see how it's possible to gain extra distance by pivoting at the end of the move unless the vehicle was tavelling sideways, and they don't do that do they? They travel in little straight line segments, always facing forward. If you pivot at the end, you've lost an inch or so simply by virtue of the rectangular shape of the vehicle. ...right? I'm obviously missing something, cause I don't see the issue.

Xai
08-01-2009, 10:51 PM
Gaining even one free pivoting inch, is in my opinion, not in the spirit of the game.

I agree. In my experience a lot of players do it. If it's not my friends who do it, I usually let it slide for the sake of keeping things flowing.

Abominable Plague Marine
08-01-2009, 11:24 PM
Ferro

Ya, I still don't see how it's possible to gain extra distance by pivoting at the end of the move unless the vehicle was tavelling sideways, and they don't do that do they? They travel in little straight line segments, always facing forward. If you pivot at the end, you've lost an inch or so simply by virtue of the rectangular shape of the vehicle. ...right? I'm obviously missing something, cause I don't see the issue.

Its quite easy (and some would say perfectly legal). You move your Rhino 12" forward facing forward, then you pivot (centre axis) so the rear door is facing forward and then you've gained yourself an inch or so. With open topped vehicles, I have seen people start with all their vehicles facing sideways (not only to gain those free pivot inches but also to block more line of sight), then when it is their first turn (pivoting before or after moving doesnt matter) move forwards and gain some free pivoting inches.


Xai

I agree. In my experience a lot of players do it. If it's not my friends who do it, I usually let it slide for the sake of keeping things flowing.

haha true, I'd rather point out to anyone who is unaware of what they have done so that they may correct their move. To those who employ it as part of their tactics, I'll let them know if in a tournament enviroment, their Sportsmanship score is going to suffer. At least this way you both know where you stand with each other even if there are a few ruffled feathers!

Hal'jin
08-02-2009, 04:04 AM
With open topped vehicles, I have seen people start with all their vehicles facing sideways (not only to gain those free pivot inches but also to block more line of sight), then when it is their first turn (pivoting before or after moving doesnt matter) move forwards and gain some free pivoting inches.

And that's one thing I certainly support in Polish Rules Clarifications, which are pretty much a FAQ used on every tournament and in most friendly games as well. The starting position of the vehicle is the one before pivot, so you cannot gain inches by pivoting from standing sideways. You can only end up 12" from the point the vehicle was at start.

Abominable Plague Marine
08-03-2009, 05:18 AM
Rock on, its after, only polite.

StrikerFox
08-03-2009, 05:02 PM
personally i would say measure from the center of the model, its the easiest way of solving this dilema. even if someone were to pivot, they measured from the center (or axis point whatever), so it wouldnt really be gaining anything.

and again, if this is a big issue of one inch.. man.. i guess "we dont know how to use it" (yuk yuk)

ANNYway.. try not to get too bent over it.. if they do it, and say YOU cant do it.. then yes, pack up and walk away.. but otherwise, just mention it, and if nothing happens, just continue on.. :D

The Green Git
08-03-2009, 09:26 PM
The Land Raider is 4" wide before the sponsons and 6.5" long. You gain 1.25" from pivoting on the spot.

12" movement + 1.25" pivot + 2" deployment + 1.5" from 40mm base + 6" assault move = 22.75" movement. Add "fuzzy" moving and human error and you easily get 23" movement from Vehicle start to Assault finish.

In a game of inches, 1.25" is the difference between a round of shooting at a target and that target moving from the safety of a vehicle straight into assault.

BuFFo
08-03-2009, 10:22 PM
We'd all like to gain some extra inches (fnar fnar!), but one recurring thing I'm seeing lately is people moving a vehicle 12", then pivoting it on the spot, gaining an extra few inches, before disembarking their troops.

I'm sure there was some kind of ruling against this years ago after a fiasco with a Limosinesque Ork Battlewagon which could pivot around, gaining an additional 10 inches!!

Move your vehicle an inch, pivot it sideways, then drive the rest of the way sideways. Then, at the 12" mark, pivot the vehicle again.

Voila!! Extra inches gained.

Now to be fair, I scoured the rules for moving a vehicle/model, and I cannot find anywhere stating a vehicle has to drive with the front of the vehicle facing forward. If this does exist, can someone please point it out to me?

- edit -

I guess this would only work for vehicles driving from reserves?

ebolus
08-04-2009, 12:35 AM
Good thread. In the end it all comes down to the vehicle's movement ability. My rhino can move 12 inches. Not 12,5 or 12,9 (or what it is when starting sideways, pivoting and rushing forward (or backwards) 12 inches). Even if pivoting is not counting as part of the movement, I guess it would be bending the rules for movement when that is done.

My gaming group has played this way for a long time, but the more I think about it and the more we discuss it, it just seems wrong. Of course if in a tournament my opponent insist on doing that at the start of the game, I will allow it, if it is mutual and allowed by the tournament rule loyers. But it is problematic.

thecactusman17
08-04-2009, 02:00 AM
The way we play it at my LGS is, no facing of the vehicle may be further than the maximum movement distance from the closest facing at the start of the movement phase. So you can flip in any way you wish, but no part of the vehicle can be further than flat-out distance from whichever vehicle facing you measured from.

GrandReaper
08-04-2009, 09:08 AM
How is there even debate? The rules explicitly allow pivoting to grant extra movement, absolutely no ambiguity. This would technically even extend to people modeling crazily shaped vehicles that are oddly dimensioned for extra abuse, but that of course violates the most important rule and all that.

There is no debate. If I deploy my vehicle sideways at deployment, then a free pivot before moving allows me to get a little closer. Then the vehicle can even pivot 180 at the end of its move to bring exits closer (although this won't gain any further movement.

The question I have here is how multiple pivots can be used to continually gain movement. If this is the case then I am certain the player must be pivoting incorrectly. Pivoting takes place around the center of the vehicle, not the center of a facing or anything else. Those people saying that the rule should just be that the center of the vehicle can never move over 12" (or that the center should be used for all movement) seem to be missing that the current rule is just that, effectively.

People really need to keep their personal opinions of what should be out of rules forums. Debate based on the rules, not on what you feel things should be, because everyone has different ideas of what is fair, etc. Some things are abusive and rediculous (this isn't one of those) and are still backed up by the rules. In those cases it's alright to disagree, but you have to qualify that it is valid ruleswise, it is just unreasonable.

Dosadi
08-04-2009, 09:34 AM
Page 57 of the 40k rulebook under Vehicles and Movement it states “Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre point.” You cannot gain a few extra inches of movement by turning a vehicle as you must turn from the centre of the model. Essentially, no part of the model may end its movement outside of the vehicle’s speed.

Done...


Dosadi

Jwolf
08-04-2009, 09:47 AM
There is no free movement. A vehicle that pivots ONLY counts as being stationary, but a vehicle that pivots and moves is still able to move only as far as the vehicle can move. If your vehicle was 12" onto the board at the start of it's move and it moves 12", it cannot be 25" onto the board at the end of its move, only 24". The rules are explicit in the movement distances, and no amount of reading X and applying it to Y makes 12+12=25.

ebolus
08-04-2009, 09:51 AM
Page 57 of the 40k rulebook under Vehicles and Movement it states “Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre point.” You cannot gain a few extra inches of movement by turning a vehicle as you must turn from the centre of the model. Essentially, no part of the model may end its movement outside of the vehicle’s speed.

But actually you can gain a little, if the vehicle deploys/starts the move from a sideways position, turns and move 12 inches forward. The more rectangular the vehicle, the more you gain. But is it cheating? Is it fine?

Maturin
08-04-2009, 10:20 AM
But actually you can gain a little, if the vehicle deploys/starts the move from a sideways position, turns and move 12 inches forward. The more rectangular the vehicle, the more you gain. But is it cheating? Is it fine?

You can, but as Jwolf states above, you may not. Getting extra inches is not allowed, however you manage to do it. I'd go so far as to point out that pivoting on the spot is still movement - it simply does not "count as" movement during the shooting phase. A close look at the rules will re-emphasize this.

Jwolf
08-04-2009, 10:42 AM
But actually you can gain a little, if the vehicle deploys/starts the move from a sideways position, turns and move 12 inches forward. The more rectangular the vehicle, the more you gain. But is it cheating? Is it fine?

You may be 1" further after the pivot, but that 1" counts towards the movement of the vehicle for the turn.

Exlorn
08-04-2009, 10:47 AM
The extra inches that people speak of can only be gained one way without breaking the rules as written.

Your vehicle must move in a direction that is perpendicular to your front or rear facing (for recangular vehicles). This means you must be aiming to move sideways. when you start your move you pivot your vehicle on its center point. At the end of that pivot your front facing is now a little bit closer to your target position, how much depends on the vehicle (half the diference of length-width). You then move your full distance, say 12". At the end of the move you either stay facing forward or you pivot on the center point so that your rear is facing forward. You then have moved 12" + (Length-width)/2 inches total from the closest point of your vehicles starting postition. If you pivot your vehicle so that the front/back is in the same orientation it was in when you started you have lost your "magic inch" and moved only 12".

I do not know of any rule in the BRB that says you may not do what I said above. My group plays that way and no one complains. If you and your group doesn't like it the best solution as stated is to just measure your movement amount from your starting position and then move the vehicle anywhere inside that circle (provided you don't need to drive around anything, which makes it more complicated, alot more).

Unless you are in a tournament play situation how you play the game isn't very important as long as everyone involved agrees and has fun. No one in this thread has posted any rules quotes that makes "magic inches" illegal that I can tell though.

Editing to add BRB quote below emphasis mine:

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than 'wheeling' round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot). Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

End quote.

1. First point above, turning does not reduce movement. It doesn't say it can't increase movement.
2. Second, May combine forward and reverse. A vehicle may only move forward and reverse, you may not slide a vehicle sideways as has been suggested previously.
3. Third, providing it does not exceed its maximum move, this is in the same sentence as the second point, and has the same subject, the forward and reverse movement. It is saying that you only count the movement, not the turning.

I know this makes me sound like a jerk, but thems the rules. I would play either way so long as you didn't wait to tell me on turn 3 when my assault was going down. I do not deploy sideways to take advantage of the magic inch either, in case anyone was wondering.

Dingareth
08-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Actually, Exlorn hit this one on the head. It's great for Fleeting Terminator coming out of Land Raiders.

2" from Pivoting + 12" move + 2" Disembark + 2" base + D6" Fleet + 6" Charge is a potential 25-30" on the first turn. I've had it done to me many a time.

nojinx
08-04-2009, 01:11 PM
Agreed, he put it clearly and well. Your example is a great and shows how far legal maneuvering can go.

I like to think of it in this way: use the center point to determine the distance the vehicle moves, then pivot as desired. This works only without intervening terrain, but conceptualizing in such a way helps keep wacky movement from happening.

The net result for some movement of non-equilateral vehicles will involve certain parts of the vehicle to have moved more or less than the center point. This is inherent to the geometry of the object and the ability to pivot on center. It does not equate to the vehicle moving more, only that the various parts of the vehicle that are not the center will always have a different net result of move distance if the vehicle's orientation at the end of the move is not exactly the same as the beginning of the move.

Roughly speaking and using Dingareth's example, the Land Raider moved 12", but geometrically part of it moved more (the front) and part of it moved less (the rear) - both due to the vehicle being a rectangle and not a square (or circle) that pivots on center.

RecklessFable
08-04-2009, 01:58 PM
I hate to say it, but getting a little extra from a pivot looks quite legal. Think about it this way, if a stationary vehicle pivots, it doesn't count as moving...
It can still fire all weapons
AND
it might just have allowed its passengers get an inch or so closer to the enemy...

However, I'd take exception so someone moving onto the board sideways 12" and then pivoting. If moving sideways was allowed, then pivoting wouldn't even be needed since you'd just slide vehicles around however you wanted. The ramming rules would also be silly... with sidestepping Land Raiders.

That all being said, the pivot would give the "extra" movement when you pivot to face a direction and then move by measuring front to front. I'm actually pretty OK with this since the vehicle got sideways previously and "lost" the movement then.

StrikerFox
08-06-2009, 06:48 AM
I hate to say it, but getting a little extra from a pivot looks quite legal. Think about it this way, if a stationary vehicle pivots, it doesn't count as moving...
It can still fire all weapons
AND
it might just have allowed its passengers get an inch or so closer to the enemy...

However, I'd take exception so someone moving onto the board sideways 12" and then pivoting. If moving sideways was allowed, then pivoting wouldn't even be needed since you'd just slide vehicles around however you wanted. The ramming rules would also be silly... with sidestepping Land Raiders.

That all being said, the pivot would give the "extra" movement when you pivot to face a direction and then move by measuring front to front. I'm actually pretty OK with this since the vehicle got sideways previously and "lost" the movement then.

LOL, one of my battlewagons i made, is wider than it is longer... so i would gain an inch if it went forward normally, then turned sideways and disembarked... THEN i waaagh... then i assault... my life is fun again!

Dosadi
08-06-2009, 07:14 AM
Really, in the spirit of the game, no part of a vehicle should ever end its movement outside of the max speed. I don't care how many pivots you make or how many times your Ork driver saw Fast & the Furious: Tokyo Drift. Vehicles in 40k move forward on whatever axis the front of the vehicle is facing, despite it not saying so explicitly in the rulebook.

Orks already get their extra inch because of the Go-Fasta-Red paint job. Be happy with that and stop trying to bend the rules. :mad:

Some days I miss the complicated turning rules of Second Edition or Rogue Trader where if you didn’t estimate right you could drive into a wall or off the table as there were minimum speeds you had to move before and after making 45* turns (kinda like BFG). Don’t make me get out my old templates!


Dosadi

Dingareth
08-06-2009, 07:21 AM
Really, in the spirit of the game, no part of a vehicle should ever end its movement outside of the max speed.

Sorry but what's that? The spirit of the game? Should we make sacrifices of small animals to appease them whenever a bad codex is released? Or do you mean the thing that people try to bend the rules with? If it's the second please remember that the "spirit of the game" differs from person to person and place to place.

Dosadi
08-06-2009, 08:29 AM
The second; and good sportmanship should be universal.


Dosadi

BuFFo
08-06-2009, 09:58 AM
Exlorn said exactly what I did in the previous page. It can happen quite easily.

Also, as for spirit of the game, my Dark Eldar raiders don't even touch the ground, so driving sideways is perfectly fine fluffwise. So I see no 'breaking of the spirit' here. Millions of years have evolved anti grav technology in such a way that sidways driving can be done. lol.

nojinx
08-06-2009, 03:50 PM
The second; and good sportmanship should be universal.


Dosadi

While I don't disagree with that, what does sportsmanship have to do with the discussion? We're talking about rules.

This is one of those situations where there is no malfunction in the rules, no ambiguity, yet some do not like one or more aspects of the rules or the results they produce on the table.

"Spirit of the Rules" is one of those subjective concepts that should be avoided if possible when using a logic-based rules system. When there is a rule conflict or problem that cannot be solved within the system, we use it sometimes to solve those issues. In such cases it is as valid as any other method (and there are many) and, as Dingareth indicated, conceptualized differently from person to person. We have to be careful not to think of it as definitive, nor similar (much less an synonym) of "good sportsmanship." The two concepts have no inherent relation.

GrandReaper
08-07-2009, 09:51 AM
Wow, so much vehemence over a freaking inch or so.

Everyone who's saying that no part of the vehicle at all should move over 12", you bring in a whole new can-o-worms of problems. In that case, every pivot will likely cost you movement as some corners of the vehicle have moved several inches. The tactic of moving a vehicle up and turning around to get out (Chimeras, Wave Serpents, etc) would eat up a good 4-6" of movement as the rear of the vehicle moves that distance forward in the pivot. DUMB!!

The rules are they way they are. Pivoting CAN afford a slight movement advantage, deal with it. It's not cheesy, beardy or unsportsmanlike, it is just playing with the rules as they are. If you want an extra 5 pages of movement rules to restrict this little "exploit" well, too bad. It's simple, smooth and fast. Now, if people are building 12" long Land Raiders, then this is where the exploitation lies, not with following the rules.

Cheers!

Exlorn
08-07-2009, 12:33 PM
Good sportmanship should be universal, but it is subjective and therefore cannot be made universal in reality. Sportsmanship doesn't really belong in a rules debate as someone said previously, you have to learn to play right first.

As a striaght rules interpretation I maintain that the so called "magic inches" are legal. They are also not inherintly unfair as you can still simply look at a vehicle and attempt to estimate the distance it will be able to travel. The only way for it to be unfair is if someone has modified their vehicles to be sized diferently, which would be a violation of most tourney rules. A fast vehicle or a skimmer is not unfair when compared to a rhino or chimera because everyone knows the rules ahead of time and can then decide on your battle plan.

The whole purpose of these rules forums is to foster a complete and universal understanding of the rules as they are written by Games Workshop. I've learned far more that I was doing wrong than right since the Lounge launched, and thats good.

Standard disclaimer applies to this post. If you don't like the "magic inches" just say so and make a house rule against it. But don't claim they aren't allowed in the rules, they are.

Also to Buffo, vehicles can't slide sidways, the rulebook says flat out forward and reverse movement. See my other post, all vehicles that I know of have a clear front and back. (Mabey the monolith, but everyone I knows plays the portal as the front).

StrikerFox
08-08-2009, 05:34 AM
Really, in the spirit of the game, no part of a vehicle should ever end its movement outside of the max speed. I don't care how many pivots you make or how many times your Ork driver saw Fast & the Furious: Tokyo Drift. Vehicles in 40k move forward on whatever axis the front of the vehicle is facing, despite it not saying so explicitly in the rulebook.

Orks already get their extra inch because of the Go-Fasta-Red paint job. Be happy with that and stop trying to bend the rules. :mad:

Some days I miss the complicated turning rules of Second Edition or Rogue Trader where if you didn’t estimate right you could drive into a wall or off the table as there were minimum speeds you had to move before and after making 45* turns (kinda like BFG). Don’t make me get out my old templates!


Dosadi

hehe dont worry dosadi, i dont do that.. ive actually won best sportsman many a tourney.. i only do this to one guy because he totally takes advantage of this whole rule of pivoting... but even the part in the rules that say "Turning does not reduce the vehicles move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providind it does not exceed its maximum move".

how he litterally translates that as, "i get to dump my guys out behind my razorback, move my it forward out of the way, move my guys up, then revers it back and not count as moving and shoot its twin linked lascannons in the shooting phase"

he will also take his wave serpants (or whatever crafty eldar vehicles), move them and put it down, then go, oh no wait.. put it back 11", then go from that point another 12".. then say no wait, put it back again another 11" then put it forward 12", and so, okay, there... dump his guys out, and unload shots.. (which woulda been just outta reach initially)

@exlorn
sorry ive gone thru the rulebook and dont see anything saying that a vehicle HAS to move forward and back only.. i mean, it would make more sense on wheeled and tracked vehicles.. but skimmers, i would think have a free movement to them.. i mean, you got walkers too, which have 360 movement, same as skimmers and the like.. but i would have to say that although we may not like it, or even agree to it, you can take advantage of this weird ruling.. do as you must, but as rules go, i have to say you can do this whole pivot stuff.. (i may not agree with it, and its dick, but it can be done..)

my twenty cents.. XD