WFB 9th Edition Rumor Roundup

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Got to love that after all these months the Age of Sigmar teaser text amounts to "well what do you think happened boys and girls?"

I don't know! You tell me! Tell me now, if not sooner!

hnngngnngngn

[Kirsten]

I love the fact daboarder is trying to take the high ground here when Mr Mystery is the one who has been saying trust harry for months. bit late to that party boarder.

[daboarder]

I love the fact daboarder is trying to take the high ground here when Mr Mystery is the one who has been saying trust harry for months. bit late to that party boarder.

Really, You're really going to try that? wow, you are silly

Id go back and find the posts where Mystery has consitently attacked rumourmongers as a whole (and specifically) but most of them have been removed by the mods for good reason.

Oh. no heres some of the more passive ones


I still don't buy any of these. I reckon H&H are indulging in more than a little leg pulling.


Yet in 40k, we're seeing an effort to increase the number of Codecies out there.

Why cut Fantasy out like that?

Leg = pulled, possibly dislocated. That's what I reckon!

Yup, he is supporting the idea that Harry and Hasting are correct, what was I thinking

:rolleyes:

Here is Mysteryes thoughts on the rumoured merging of Undead armies and merging Chaos armies.


Yarp.

Twaddle.

Which was much the same short statement he made the page before about the timeline moving forward.


Sounds like utter bollocks to me.

So with such on the ball insight into the workings of GW, I have to ask, why would anyone think that his opinion is likely to be the direction GW takes?

.....AND I've just realised that the statement I made in my second last post is currently holding water.......

Again, this post is only here to condense the information above, its freely available throughout this thread, its up to others to make up their own minds really

[daboarder]

On problems: to high entry cost and balance (I definitely agree with the former; agree a bit less strongly with the latter) could be added an initially daunting ruleset. It's not that hard when you get used to it, but for a new player it can look like a mammoth ****tonne of rules to learn, especially with the enormous rulebook. If all three of those points are being addressed in the new game/edition/whatever it is (the lack of solid information has been galling this past 9 months or so!) then Warhammer will be around for a good long time yet. If not, well, they already tried the nuclear option, as it were...

While it is possible, GWs actions do not leave me with much faith that they will be aiming to create a robust and elegant rulesset.

[Erik Setzer]

On problems: to high entry cost and balance (I definitely agree with the former; agree a bit less strongly with the latter) could be added an initially daunting ruleset. It's not that hard when you get used to it, but for a new player it can look like a mammoth ****tonne of rules to learn, especially with the enormous rulebook. If all three of those points are being addressed in the new game/edition/whatever it is (the lack of solid information has been galling this past 9 months or so!) then Warhammer will be around for a good long time yet. If not, well, they already tried the nuclear option, as it were...

40K has 208 pages for just the rules. JUST the rules. The mini-rulebooks are the same size. 40K's rules come in a big box on the shelf. And those rules are not easy to make sense of at times, and leave some questions lingering (like the grenade debate that now has me wondering if it's not supposed to be just a lone grenade in assault). So all of those issues could apply for 40K as well.

I think it was mainly the cost and lack of a way to play a smaller game (though ironically then the force you're playing with would cost less than the rules needed to run said force...).

[Mr Mystery]

Warhammer rules really aren't all that complicated when you get down to it.

Like any new venture, it's best to start with the basics. And like 40k, the very, very basics (this is how you move, this is how you shoot, this is how you knock someone's teeth down their throat so far they can chew their food twice) are nice and straight forward.

As the newcomer progresses (quite quickly, wargames tend to attract the brighter bunnies by their very nature) the more involved (not complex) rules can be introduced one by one.

Before you know it, they've kicked off their training wheels and are pedalling full speed ahead down your flank.

As for balance.....Warhammer is much, much better than 40k for it, simply because it's far more about how you do than what you've brought. Key to success is understanding how combat stacks up. Flank charge in the right place at the wrong time for your opponent, and the game can be very easily in the bag.

Which is why, when introducing someone to the game, it's important to not just roll them. Because all they'll see is just how quickly their line can fall apart, rather than how much effort went into exposing that flank and then exploiting it.

Though as already covered, I do agree the perceived minimum points level made entry look daunting. You can have quite a satisfying game as a newcomer with just a battalion's worth of models. They're quite affordable, and contain full on kits. Even better, they're very easily expanded upon, whether you want to add to a unit, get more Core or buy something gribbly, they're solid starting points for any army.

Why perceived? Well, I've been playing Warhammer properly for...ooh, let's see.....coming up, if not just over, 20 years. Got started with the Elves v Lethal Goblins boxed game, which is about the same time the rules started to be de-fineckitied to enable games to be played in a shorter time, thus meaning larger games needed less logistics and not a weekend of time. So naturally, my collections have grown, and when I now start an army, it's pencilled in for around 3,000 points, if not slightly more.

But there's no need to set your sights so high - 1,000 points might seem a bit bare bones to me but it's perfectly playable :)

[Erik Setzer]

Even 1000 points can be quite an investment. It's nice to have the option to go smaller. And it actually existed at one point, albeit in a side set (which came with WD but you could just download them, too). Those extra rules were definitely needed. In the escalation league at the local GW, I saw some horrible stuff in small points games of WFB and 40K.

40K wasn't bad on the balance, but Elves and Chaos Warriors could way too easily roll over other armies, especially with someone who knew what they were doing. One of the things that didn't help WFB locally was a tournament player who's very good, and opted to go High Elves and Chaos Warriors as his armies (finally looking for a "challenge" army about the time WFB's getting a new edition). There were matches I had against tricked out versions of those two armies (even with other people playing them) where it was just a one-way match from the start. I still remember one player deciding to "show" that his army wasn't that bad and swapped with another player, then did his best to trick out that player's army... and promptly got steamrolled by his own army.

Those things were fixable, though. It did seem like they were edging up the power in later books, but as long as you go back and do that with the other books, that could lead to a feeling of high-fantasy battles, so not that bad. Just have to make sure all the armies are on even footing. But at least the newer books were consistent, which is more than can be said for the books released so far in 40K7's lifespan.

I don't think the rules for WFB are that complicated, if you leave out a lot of optional stuff. Heck, I think they're easier than 40K. But they're illustrated a lot, and the rulebook is rather thick (to "justify" the price) and that makes them seem more daunting.

Really, that's the thing that upsets me most about WFB. If they still had someone like Priestley, Chambers, even Cavatore or Pirinen, around, they could have recognized how easy it was to fix: Put Skirmish and Warbands in the rulebook, advertise that people can play any level, make the rules affordable for easier entry, fix some of the crazier priced stuff (i.e. Witch Elves), just ditch some of the insane priced "Finecast" stuff no one's buying, and bring the older books in line with the newer ones. Pretty simple fix. For all that some games could feel like a one-sided face-bashing, it wasn't that hard to fix. There was no need to blow the whole thing up (literally as well as figuratively).

But hey, if it's a completely new game, that's something you can market more... right?

And having been at WFB since around '90 (oh dear God, that makes me feel old), I'm not enthused with the idea of drastically changing how a game has played for three decades.

[Mr Mystery]

We still don't know what's changing.

Army selection? We know books are off the shelves to make way for advertising, and they remain available online (and according to one poster, as yet unverified, still being sold in store, they're just out the back/local equivalent to out the back. No, not the outback. That's dangerous).

Rules? Round bases are in. That's about all we know.

[Erik Setzer]

Round bases pretty much necessitate a different play style. You can try to force the old play style at times, but it'll be clunky. So yeah, it'll be a different game.

The current army books are gone. I don't get why people act like they'd have pulled them off shelves for any other reason. Managers will sell them because the managers, unlike the company's top management, don't view customers as enemies but rather friends, and they know some people still want to get a book for whatever reason. GW seems to have a horrific policy that when they pull books from the shelves, they order them to be destroyed and tossed in the trash. If that's the inevitable end for these books, what game-respecting manager wouldn't try to sell them first to make sure they don't end there? Especially if it helps put more money into his store, which helps him keep his job? And GW, having plenty of copies in their warehouse, will continue selling online until the last minute, because it makes no sense not to try to move that product if they can get full retail rather than writing it off as a loss. So all it means is they're not willing to let go of money they could still make, especially as people decide to get what they can before they're gone.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I remember there was a rumour, way way back when these changes were first mooted - before End Times hit - that there'd be a Ravening Hordes kind of deal with the new game. I didn't believe it at the time; that was before they blew the world up, of course. Now I'm more inclined to believe that.

[grimmas]

It wouldn't necessarily mean a different style of play have a look at War of the Ring, all it would mean is regular sized regiment bases with a set number of models on them depending on the unit type and a unit size is determined by the number of regiment bases. I'll try and attach a picture of a WOTR army with both homemade and bought regiment bases. I'm sure you can work out how square bases could be used with the home made ones 14513

What would really mess up the game is if they did away with regiment manoeuvres, turn, wheels etc. because they are what made the movement phase so important and I did see a rumour about these being ditched for a system not unlike 40K vehicle movement. I can't recall who said it and it's not been said by anyone reliable recently so I'm not too worried but it would very much alter the game

[Mr Mystery]

Round bases and necessary different play style - well.......yes and no

Yes, because you're right. It suggests a new approach to movement, one of the core challenges of Warhammer.

No, because a new approach doesn't by any means equate to the current/old* style being ditched.


*delete to taste

[Erik Setzer]

Why put models on round bases if the default isn't non-regimental combat? War of the Rings felt clunky with those bases. If regiments are going to feature heavily, it makes a lot more sense to stick with square bases, which allow people to line up models simply and add them to their existing collection without looking out of place. Now, sure, GW might just be taking the money-first notion that if you move to round bases but keep regiments people will have to buy the not-even-remotely-ideal regiment bases made for round models. But I'd like to at least believe they're not *that* greedy, that they'd make a game harder to play just to make more money.

Then again, they are shifting 40K to Epic scale armies at new 28mm prices, so... yeah, they might be willing to mess up their own game in the hopes of squeezing out a few more dollars from gamers.

[Mr Mystery]

Because it's a new option? A different way for units to move? Because they want to? God told them to do it? It prevents cancer?

In short, we don't know.

Literally all we know is that some models have been sighted at Warhammer World mounted upon round bases, along side others on square bases. We've also not seen the withdrawal of existing kits which only contain square bases.

We have one particularly unreliable rumourmonger claiming a forthcoming kit has only the large oval base included.

Just a general life tip - don't go stressing the unknown.

And please - stop with your assertion that 'eek, they're moving 40k to epic scale armies! Eek!'. They're not. At all. Throwing out interesting new ways to organise your force, and some of those needing a large collection means just that. It's a way to drive sales. The rules of the game still comfortably accommodate anything from 500 points upwards.

[Cutter]

I can dream :)

No need to dream, just be a little patient.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/dungeon-saga-the-dwarf-kings-quest/description

Uncle Ronnie will sort you out.

[grimmas]

Because it's a new option? A different way for units to move? Because they want to? God told them to do it? It prevents cancer?

In short, we don't know.

Literally all we know is that some models have been sighted at Warhammer World mounted upon round bases, along side others on square bases. We've also not seen the withdrawal of existing kits which only contain square bases.

We have one particularly unreliable rumourmonger claiming a forthcoming kit has only the large oval base included.

Just a general life tip - don't go stressing the unknown.

And please - stop with your assertion that 'eek, they're moving 40k to epic scale armies! Eek!'. They're not. At all. Throwing out interesting new ways to organise your force, and some of those needing a large collection means just that. It's a way to drive sales. The rules of the game still comfortably accommodate anything from 500 points upwards.

Off topic but I think formations are the way forward and are going to eliminate some of the stupidness that CAN occur in 40K

On topic GW will make changes based on what will ultimately make them more money, you've worked for them as well so you're well aware that is what they're about. I don't have an issue with it and despite what we hear on the internet they actually do it in a pretty reasonable way but that's is ultimately what guides them.

[Mr Mystery]

Absolutely. Like any company, profits come first.

I just think people are getting in a right flap for no reason.

Yes, Harry is usually reliable, but in this case his latest info is quite different from the stuff he mentioned earlier. It's not a sign that any of it is wrong or incorrect, but it should be considered altogether. I'm not aware he's said old fashioned square bashing is off - that seems to be based on an unsubstantiated rumour from Birds In The Trees (and I still don't know if that's a single poster, or a sort of general term for random rumour mongers.

Go with what we know, not what you're afraid might happen.

[Kirsten]

only a month away now, very excited to see what will happen. and to see what the actual launch will be as well, starter set first, rulebook later? all together? new army books?

[Path Walker]

Absolutely. Like any company, profits come first.

I just think people are getting in a right flap for no reason.

Yes, Harry is usually reliable, but in this case his latest info is quite different from the stuff he mentioned earlier. It's not a sign that any of it is wrong or incorrect, but it should be considered altogether. I'm not aware he's said old fashioned square bashing is off - that seems to be based on an unsubstantiated rumour from Birds In The Trees (and I still don't know if that's a single poster, or a sort of general term for random rumour mongers.

Go with what we know, not what you're afraid might happen.

Birds In The Trees is the name given to random bull**** that gets sent in anonymously to make it sound more legit, my gaming group have discovered this from sending in a lot of bollocks to see it attributted to Birds In The Trees

[Mr Mystery]

only a month away now, very excited to see what will happen. and to see what the actual launch will be as well, starter set first, rulebook later? all together? new army books?

Who knows! But I too am excite, because I like new things, even when they're not all that new.

Defo putting off the PS4 purchase. Warhams comes first!

[Erik Setzer]

And please - stop with your assertion that 'eek, they're moving 40k to epic scale armies! Eek!'. They're not. At all. Throwing out interesting new ways to organise your force, and some of those needing a large collection means just that. It's a way to drive sales. The rules of the game still comfortably accommodate anything from 500 points upwards.

No. I'm not going to stop stating the obvious.

The new detachments aren't made for 500 point games, they're made for 3000 points minimum. Sure, you can squeeze them into smaller, but not really. Super-heavy vehicles are a regular part of 40K now, with entire super-heavy armies. You get bonuses for, as an example, fielding an entire Space Marine company, encouraging you to do so. You get bonuses for fielding 3 vehicles in a squadron. You don't get bonuses for running smaller units, smaller armies.

These are not "interesting new ways to organize your force." They are force organizations designed to push the game to an ever-larger scale in the belief that people will choose to buy larger armies in order to get the benefits that only come in large games. It's working... for the people who stick around. The people who aren't exasperated and start taking their money elsewhere are getting less likely to play under 2000 points *minimum*, and even at the GW store where he tries to enforce a max points of 1500 for 40K without special permission (to keep tables revolving for people looking for games), folks will ignore that just to go for 2500 points games. And yeah, seeing a swarm of Tyranids against a force of Knights with fortifications, as I did the other day, is a bloody Epic game.

So yes. They ARE pushing 40K to Epic scale. Apoc, if they bother going back to it, will be a very small supplement in its next release, as all of the super-heavies are already available in standard games, and standard games of 40K allow bigger formations than what's in Apoc. I get it, you're so giddy about GW that you dislike any criticism at all. But it's hard not to see this shift when the old "massive games" expansion actually has smaller formations than standard 40K games, and doesn't add any "big stuff" above what's already in the game. Heck, they don't need to waste time with another Apoc supplement, because they can just sell the current one for $75 for the two things it adds to the game: a disaster chart that is so all over the place that a fun idea can be tiring and awful with the wrong roll, and a set of cards to buff armies. That's pretty much it. Everything else is actually smaller scale than standard 40K. And yet you're going to tell me to stop saying anything about that, because God forbid someone should say something negative about your darling Games Workshop, even though they've screwed up so bad they had to blow up a 30-year-old game so iconic they were naming their stores after it, wiping out the world and the rules in a drastic move to revitalize it.

Oh, yeah, you wanted me to not say anything was wrong with WFB, too. Clearly there was nothing wrong with it, wiping out a 30-year-old industry icon is just a Tuesday for such a phenomenal company as Games Workshop, right? Even more amusing when we're told they're a miniatures company, which is why we shouldn't worry about balance, and yet they're putting this much effort into completely revamping a game? Of course they are, because without the games, they're nothing, but people repeat that tired "they're a miniatures company" line because, well, people are idiots.

Do you want to try to tell me more about what I can't say? Not gonna be quiet just because you like uncomfortable truths. If you don't like that GW does these things for people to point out, I recommend going into a different hobby, or closing your eyes and ears and pretending no one exists in the world except you and Games Workshop. Trying to shut people up? Nope. Just makes us more annoyed.

[Mr Mystery]

It's not a truth.

It's an opinion.

If each Codex offered solely formations, you would have a point.

But they don't. They also come with the standard FoC and army specific variations upon the FoC.

They have promoted larger scale play - they aren't forcing it on anyone.

Do try to learn the difference.

[Path Walker]

These new formations mean there is no way to make smaller armies at 500points or less with a codex, apart from the Combined Arms Detachment, the Planetstrike Detachments, the Zone Mortalis Detachments, Kill Team, etc etc

Large scale play is now easier, because thats what a lot of people want to do, use as many of their toys in a game as possible.

Small scale is just as viable as its ever been for 40k.

Writing more words doesn't make you more correct, it just means you can't fit your ideas down because you're a rambling nerd.

[Houghten]

just makes us more annoying.ftfy

[Path Walker]

Bare bones Chaplin (no pun intended)
3x Minimum Tactical Squads
1x Minimal Assualt Squad
1x Devestator Squad with Heavy Bolters

Is less than 500 points and is a well rounded and fluffy force that fits in to the Demi Company Formation, giving you Objective Secured and access to Tactical Doctrines, if you had the points for an Auxillary choice, you could take the whole Gladius Strike Force Detachment, so you could fit in the Detachment into 1000 points easily.

Is it "competitive"? No, probably not, but then, who cares about that? Only about 4 people on this forum.

[grimmas]

Erik go and sit in the corner and think about what you've done you've taken the one active WFB thread dangerously of topic, yours and Mysteries tadger waving contest needs to stay in the obliette.

Back on topic why if GW has made such a hash of things would it be a bad thing if they actually revamped WFB properly for a change whilst, if pretty much all the rumours are to be believed, adding a proper skirmish rule set?

[Erik Setzer]

Back on topic why if GW has made such a hash of things would it be a bad thing if they actually revamped WFB properly for a change whilst, if pretty much all the rumours are to be believed, adding a proper skirmish rule set?

Because the fixes were pretty simple. A "proper skirmish rule set" existed for WFB as recently as 6th edition, as well as a set of rules for 200-500 point battles. It would have been great to include those in the rulebook, which was pretty easy, as it's maybe a total of 20-30 pages (if you fluff them out), and you can just compress one or two other areas of the rulebook (it's already a bit too bloated with non-rules stuff, frankly). It seems like their desire to press people to larger battles caused them to drop those rules - as well as the 40K counterparts, Kill Team and Combat Patrol, which were actually in the 40K core rulebook at one point - from the game.

The game wasn't beyond repair, and that's what frustrates me so much. Add back in those skirmish and warbands rules, giving "three ways to play" as there were before, and fix some of the pricing. I'm not saying drop $40 units to $25. Yeah, that'd make more sense and get more people buying the stuff and all, but whatever, people will pay $40 (though Core Units should be cheaper). Mainly it's stuff like $60 Witch Elves, or so many $75+ models, and the pointless items in the line that were both obscenely expensive and "Finecast" (Blood Knights, Orc Warboss on Wyvern, that kind of stuff). Shed some of the rulebook prices, which they were on a right track for with the softcover books (still more than I'd prefer, but much more palatable to people). And that's it. Still could make loads of profit, the game doesn't appear to be too expensive, you can pull people in at multiple levels, and it'd compete with everything from Malifaux up to Kings of War (not really Warmachine, because it's kind of a different style thematically, but I suppose in the terms of being a skirmish scale game?).

As for the background, it wasn't that bad. They did flub the end of Storm of Chaos, but could have recovered from that. Move the background a bit, shift things up, change the balance of power in some ways, add a more insidious "threat from within" feeling to Chaos (like the WFRP game always had). Heck, go forward 100-200 years, finish some of the wars, start new ones, redraw boundaries. So if people were really that upset (and it doesn't sound like they mind that WFB and 40K have stable backgrounds, because that's usually how games work), they could have even tweaked the background a good bit without going through blowing up the world.

I'm willing to give things a chance, as long as it doesn't look like it'll require buying a whole new army over time. But it strikes me how big of a screw-up they could be making with such a hard reboot when I hear the biggest pro-fantasy guy in town, the one who always says WFB is superior to 40K and trying to get people to play, talking about quitting if some of the rumors are true.

And the biggest damning thing here is that we have only rumors because we are the "enemy" and must not be told anything until the release of the new game is right on top of us. I'm not hyped by a poster that tells me nothing about the game itself. I'd be more hyped if they show something about the game. We're a month out, and they're going to stay tight-lipped. Meanwhile, everyone else gives previews of models and rules months, or at least weeks, in advance. Somehow, none of them have IP issues, and they all make money.

[Cutter]

Erik go and sit in the corner and think about what you've done you've taken the one active WFB thread dangerously of topic, yours and Mysteries tadger waving contest needs to stay in the obliette.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

[Mr Mystery]

I can't. I'll get banned.

But mine is totes biggerer.

[Path Walker]

I can't. I'll get banned.

But mine is totes biggerer.

Thats hardly an impressive claim, its like saying you've been voted the worlds tallest dwarf, sure, you're bigger than all the other stunties but still essentially stunted yourself.

[Mr Mystery]

Bit much dude.

[Path Walker]

thats what she said?

[Mr Mystery]

That was more 'not with that you're not'.

And she was quite right. A chainsaw should never be used by an untrained amateur.

And especially not for cutting some cheese to go on a cheesy toastie.

Thankfully, all fingers were recovered and reattached.

[40kGamer]

I'm cautiously optimistic. I personally find 40k to be a complete train wreck in it's current incarnation which makes me very very nervous for the fantasy reboot. However on the positive side they offered great product in the past and War of the Ring is a decent enough game so who knows, maybe they'll find that elusive acorn this time.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic, really. Just kind of... apathetic, I guess. Pretty much all the WFB in this area died off. If it can be resurrected, cool. If not, there's other games.

The issue with 40K right now, I think, is using different teams to work on books in order to get them out faster, plus changing their minds on format (like having supplements) so there's already a big disparity in the books that have come out in the year since 7th edition's release. I would prefer them to go at a more measured pace for Warhammer, rather than rushing the market with books and models.

[40kGamer]

I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic, really. Just kind of... apathetic, I guess. Pretty much all the WFB in this area died off. If it can be resurrected, cool. If not, there's other games.

The issue with 40K right now, I think, is using different teams to work on books in order to get them out faster, plus changing their minds on format (like having supplements) so there's already a big disparity in the books that have come out in the year since 7th edition's release. I would prefer them to go at a more measured pace for Warhammer, rather than rushing the market with books and models.

Or maybe give us a Ravening Hordes type book where everything is released in one big tome. On the plus side almost no one plays fantasy where I live either so it's not like there are that many people they can piss off with the new release.

[Erik Setzer]

Or maybe give us a Ravening Hordes type book where everything is released in one big tome. On the plus side almost no one plays fantasy where I live either so it's not like there are that many people they can piss off with the new release.

Ravening Hordes was a small booklet. I would be quite amenable to a book-sized supplement with army lists. Heck, that's what games did "back in the day," early editions of Warhammer included.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic, really. Just kind of... apathetic, I guess. Pretty much all the WFB in this area died off. If it can be resurrected, cool. If not, there's other games.

The issue with 40K right now, I think, is using different teams to work on books in order to get them out faster, plus changing their minds on format (like having supplements) so there's already a big disparity in the books that have come out in the year since 7th edition's release. I would prefer them to go at a more measured pace for Warhammer, rather than rushing the market with books and models.

I'm not really sure what I am. I'm mostly in Mystery's camp of not getting worked up about what I don't know, but then I do know round bases are happening in some form. That will mean something radical is changing, which could be fine or it could be very bad. Can I be apprehensively excited?

[Erik Setzer]

I think if I was more like "normal" people I'd be closer to that camp, if not in it. But I'm predisposed to seeing the potential bad that could happen with things (or the bad that is happening). Not *just* the bad, mind you. I just see it clearer than other people. An idea known as "depressive realism." It can be annoying to people who don't like someone being "negative" (which in and of itself is not fun for someone like me, as the criticism is taken to heart even when we don't show it), but it can be helpful in personal situations.

On the plus side, though, it means when something is good, I'm pleasantly surprised. And I can still enjoy it, certainly.

(Hate to get all "personal" but, well, I know there's probably a perception that I'm just some trolling jerk who likes to piss people off, and I'd rather just say something uncomfortable about myself than take undue flak that, even though I know it's not accurate, still piles on stress and leads to a negative loop.)

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not really sure what I am. I'm mostly in Mystery's camp of not getting worked up about what I don't know, but then I do know round bases are happening in some form. That will mean something radical is changing, which could be fine or it could be very bad. Can I be apprehensively excited?

Not convinced round = radical to be honest.

I still expect we'll see two takes on the rules.

[Kirsten]

I do like the movement trays some companies made for daemon armies with round bases. allowed a little space between each model so they ranked up better, and obviously you can rotate each model slightly as well to get them to fit better. plus the circle cutouts in the movement tray could be staggered very slightly rather than being a uniform line, adds a little realism. I would be very happy to do that for an army, round bases with suitable movement trays to allow skirmish games and proper games.

[daboarder]

No. I'm not going to stop stating the obvious.

The new detachments aren't made for 500 point games, they're made for 3000 points minimum. Sure, you can squeeze them into smaller, but not really. Super-heavy vehicles are a regular part of 40K now, with entire super-heavy armies. You get bonuses for, as an example, fielding an entire Space Marine company, encouraging you to do so. You get bonuses for fielding 3 vehicles in a squadron. You don't get bonuses for running smaller units, smaller armies.

These are not "interesting new ways to organize your force." They are force organizations designed to push the game to an ever-larger scale in the belief that people will choose to buy larger armies in order to get the benefits that only come in large games. It's working... for the people who stick around. The people who aren't exasperated and start taking their money elsewhere are getting less likely to play under 2000 points *minimum*, and even at the GW store where he tries to enforce a max points of 1500 for 40K without special permission (to keep tables revolving for people looking for games), folks will ignore that just to go for 2500 points games. And yeah, seeing a swarm of Tyranids against a force of Knights with fortifications, as I did the other day, is a bloody Epic game.

So yes. They ARE pushing 40K to Epic scale. Apoc, if they bother going back to it, will be a very small supplement in its next release, as all of the super-heavies are already available in standard games, and standard games of 40K allow bigger formations than what's in Apoc. I get it, you're so giddy about GW that you dislike any criticism at all. But it's hard not to see this shift when the old "massive games" expansion actually has smaller formations than standard 40K games, and doesn't add any "big stuff" above what's already in the game. Heck, they don't need to waste time with another Apoc supplement, because they can just sell the current one for $75 for the two things it adds to the game: a disaster chart that is so all over the place that a fun idea can be tiring and awful with the wrong roll, and a set of cards to buff armies. That's pretty much it. Everything else is actually smaller scale than standard 40K. And yet you're going to tell me to stop saying anything about that, because God forbid someone should say something negative about your darling Games Workshop, even though they've screwed up so bad they had to blow up a 30-year-old game so iconic they were naming their stores after it, wiping out the world and the rules in a drastic move to revitalize it.

Oh, yeah, you wanted me to not say anything was wrong with WFB, too. Clearly there was nothing wrong with it, wiping out a 30-year-old industry icon is just a Tuesday for such a phenomenal company as Games Workshop, right? Even more amusing when we're told they're a miniatures company, which is why we shouldn't worry about balance, and yet they're putting this much effort into completely revamping a game? Of course they are, because without the games, they're nothing, but people repeat that tired "they're a miniatures company" line because, well, people are idiots.

Do you want to try to tell me more about what I can't say? Not gonna be quiet just because you like uncomfortable truths. If you don't like that GW does these things for people to point out, I recommend going into a different hobby, or closing your eyes and ears and pretending no one exists in the world except you and Games Workshop. Trying to shut people up? Nope. Just makes us more annoyed.

Can we get a clapping emoji? Because this deserves a clapping emoji!

[Alaric]

(Hate to get all "personal" but, well, I know there's probably a perception that I'm just some trolling jerk who likes to piss people off, and I'd rather just say something uncomfortable about myself than take undue flak that, even though I know it's not accurate, still piles on stress and leads to a negative loop.)

Its not what you say its how you say it.

For what its worth. Care less yourself about what faceless people you dont even know think. Myself included of course but ill have my say. You have good things to say I just think you could say more with less

[Mr Mystery]

'Appen my bonus is being paid this month, not July....

TO THE CASH CANNON!

[Kirsten]

pew pew. I am getting a whole £89 tax rebate soon so might use that

[Mr Mystery]

Very nice!

No such rebate for me - once again, I've had me tax code adjusted so I pay more tax :(

[Kirsten]

it will probably take them up to a month to get it to me, get it paid in etc. so might be just right for buying a starter set.

[Mr Mystery]

I get paid in 12 days time....PS4, exhaust for The Beast and MOT....then comes Age of Sigmar....

I'll still probably be broke in no time, but hey, money is for spending, not hoarding.

[Kirsten]

yup, can't take it with you, spend it now.

[Mr Mystery]

I do wonder exactly what it is that's coming.

Notably, Age of Sigmar isn't 'Warhammer: Age of Sigmar', though how significant that is, I dunno.

Wish it was 4th July already - mostly because I'd have played Arkham Knight by then, but also to see what this is all about.

[Houghten]

yup, can't take it with you, spend it now.
Traditionally referring to death, of course, but with interest and inflation the way they are at the moment it might as well refer to tomorrow; your money will be worth less by the time you wake up.

[grimmas]

I do like the movement trays some companies made for daemon armies with round bases. allowed a little space between each model so they ranked up better, and obviously you can rotate each model slightly as well to get them to fit better. plus the circle cutouts in the movement tray could be staggered very slightly rather than being a uniform line, adds a little realism. I would be very happy to do that for an army, round bases with suitable movement trays to allow skirmish games and proper games.

GW made them as well, but to be honest I'm just glad someone else seems to know what I've been droning on about 😀

[Kirsten]

the war of the rings ones weren't the best I have seen, there are some pretty cool ones out there.

[Erik Setzer]

I do like the movement trays some companies made for daemon armies with round bases. allowed a little space between each model so they ranked up better, and obviously you can rotate each model slightly as well to get them to fit better. plus the circle cutouts in the movement tray could be staggered very slightly rather than being a uniform line, adds a little realism. I would be very happy to do that for an army, round bases with suitable movement trays to allow skirmish games and proper games.

Well, when you use those trays, especially spacing them out, and versus current armies (where even the 25mm won't be spaced out that much, but 20mm bases will be even worse), it's harder to use the current rules where you check to see who's in contact in order to determine which models can fight.

Now, you can use an abstract system of combat, that creates a simple work-around for that issue, but then you're doing another not-really-minor change to the rules.

So, again, it's an argument in favor of a very different rules set, because trying to force round bases into a square base rules set, even with regiment bases that are expensive and don't give you as much freedom for ranking (unless you get custom ones, and that just adds even more expense), doesn't work that well.

Not saying it'd be bad, just different.

[Erik Setzer]

Wish it was 4th July already

I feel bad for the local GW manager... Poor guy wants people to come in to do preorders, but July 4th is kind of a major holiday here (something about America declaring independence from some foreign power across the pond), so he has to do a barbeque or some kind of holiday-themed party to help convince people to get to the store.

I'm not sure what caused them to schedule something like that, but I do think it could sting some on the preorders in America. Though it'd be a bit of a fiasco in this market if they set the actual release date for July 4th.

[grimmas]

the war of the rings ones weren't the best I have seen, there are some pretty cool ones out there.

True, I really want the staggered ones now, how cool would that look, I might have to spend more time painting the second rank but it would be really good.

[Kirsten]

yeah, with more surface of the tray visible as well you can do more with them. I have a load of bloodletters on round bases and I always meant to paint the movement tray to look more scorched toward the back, as successive ranks of daemons tread over it. so it would be mud and grass at the front, cracked earth and black marks at the rear.

[grimmas]

Well, when you use those trays, especially spacing them out, and versus current armies (where even the 25mm won't be spaced out that much, but 20mm bases will be even worse), it's harder to use the current rules where you check to see who's in contact in order to determine which models can fight.

Now, you can use an abstract system of combat, that creates a simple work-around for that issue, but then you're doing another not-really-minor change to the rules.

So, again, it's an argument in favor of a very different rules set, because trying to force round bases into a square base rules set, even with regiment bases that are expensive and don't give you as much freedom for ranking (unless you get custom ones, and that just adds even more expense), doesn't work that well.

Not saying it'd be bad, just different.

To be honest any new edition is supposed to get people to buy more models, so a base change won't be a big surprise. Making movement trays with appropriate spacing for existing bases won't be tricky just a case of plasticard sheet and the correct width square section rod. Yeah it'll take a little time but easily doable, GW will be hoping people won't be bothered and just buy new.

What surprises we about your reaction to the these rumours is that from what you've said I'd have thought that you'd be very welcoming of the inclusion of a set of skirmish rules in the main rule book, but I getting the feeling you're not that keen.

[Kirsten]

it is actually quite simple to work around, mark the base size increments on the front of the movement tray as though they were ranked on square bases. so start from the middle point, and measure each side, use small rocks, paint marks, whatever to determine what the actual location would be for comparing to the opposing unit.

obviously if we get rules for round base armies then that will no longer be necessary as there will be an official rule for it.

[Erik Setzer]

Skirmish rules I'm keen on. The round bases, not at all.

To put this in proper perspective, off the top of my head, I have about 7000 points of assembled and painted Undead, about 7-8000 points of assembled Skaven (5000 or so fully painted, the rest in various stages), 6000+ of Empire (3000 painted), some ridiculous amount of Orcs and Goblins fully painted... I've got movement trays set up for the regiments and all.

Add Skirmish back in, let me fight that way again? Cool!

Change things to round models? Well, let's see...

Any new models for the above armies will require me hunting down the right bases to put them on, so they don't look ridiculous with my existing army.

I will not change my regiment bases to match the size of new regiments. If that gives me an "advantage" or "disadvantage," so be it.

Lining up my ranked square units in ranked combats against round based units will lead to a mess if it's still "find out who's in base-to-base." And if regiments are still intended to be a thing, why go to round bases in the first place?

The round base thing is what's bugging me. I don't get it. It's a stupid move. Someone might think, "Well, they'll buy new models to replace their existing models, score!" But that's not even remotely true. Round bases in a square-dominated army will look ridiculous, so people who do that will have the look of their army hurt by the change. And round bases might be the norm for skirmish-level games like Warmachine and Malifaux, but they don't rank well - as the need for special bases shows - and certainly not as well as square bases. You know, the square bases we all already have, that work just fine for a skirmish-level game as we saw in Warhammer Skirmish and Mordheim. A gamer would know the move to round bases is a bad idea, especially after 30 years. The design studio would know it's a bad idea. And it terrifies me to think that some corporate schmuck is overriding the design studio with ideas just because he thinks it could earn the company more money.

I'm waiting to see what actually happens to determine my future with the game. If square bases and round bases mixing aren't too much of a mess, I'll just carry on and get square bases for existing armies and assemble the Dwarfs I have laying around on round bases (and finally have an excuse to build them... some of the units are too small for basic WFB games, at least in the modern "MOAR FIGURES!!1!" style). If it's too much of a mess and they're banking on me actually replacing my armies... well, I hear someone else is making a game for ranked fantasy regiments, which will be a lot cheaper, and all the money I'll save no longer buying niche "premium" toy soldiers will go to getting a lot more board games and other miniature games.

Ball's in their court.

And their freaking silence is murder... but probably part of their "genius" plan.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I should just say this: If they make a new edition that my current armies can play in, are valid in (long-term), and don't have a mess trying to work in, I'll gladly get the new edition and play it.

If they try to drag thousands more dollars out of me when they should be trying to keep existing players and get more new players... I'm done.

[grimmas]

Oh I can tell you why the silence though, Space Marines are out this month so they don't want anything distracting people from that, GW have been trying for years to try and keep customers focused on whatever they are trying to sell at the moment and restricting the news is a way of doing it.

[Mr Mystery]

E-vouchers are the answer to that, and how I got my greasy, hairy mitts on every End Times book.

Buy on payday, spend as and when online. Buy them in-store, and they benefit from the sale.

[Erik Setzer]

Meh. They've been on this paranoia kick for a while now, claiming they have to "protect the IP," which is amazing, because no one else does that, and people still make plenty of stuff you can use in place of official GW models.

I don't bother with vouchers because I feel it's silly to lock up my money in some piece of paper (or worse, just an online code) with the thought, "Hey, maybe this lone company that I can now spend this money with will release something I want." I also hate gift cards for the same reason. I don't really have the money for the Space Marine codex right now (well, I could try to squeeze it in, but I'd rather get other stuff, starting with making sure I have enough for food and transportation), so I'll just get it later. If their releases don't fall in line with my paycheck, oh well. If someone else released something cool and I bought it because I didn't know what GW is releasing because they're morons, the purchase from them will have to wait.

The silence is really ridiculous when they don't tell their own employees anything. Managers need to know what's coming to plan events and all, but too often they're stuck relying on rumor sites like the rest of us. Luckily, they only need to know when stuff is coming out to effectively plan a sales strategy. The rules are just something they need to learn to help after stuff is released. (On that note, if they don't already do it, they need to set aside a copy of each new army book or supplement as a "store" copy, that the manager can use to learn those rules and stay up to date. Often when there's a question in a GW store, the manager becomes the "go-to" guy for answers. Being a font of knowledge makes him more valuable to customers, which also makes them more likely to play at the store, and thus more likely to buy there.)

[Wildeybeast]

Skirmish rules I'm keen on. The round bases, not at all.

To put this in proper perspective, off the top of my head, I have about 7000 points of assembled and painted Undead, about 7-8000 points of assembled Skaven (5000 or so fully painted, the rest in various stages), 6000+ of Empire (3000 painted), some ridiculous amount of Orcs and Goblins fully painted... I've got movement trays set up for the regiments and all.

Add Skirmish back in, let me fight that way again? Cool!

Change things to round models? Well, let's see...

Any new models for the above armies will require me hunting down the right bases to put them on, so they don't look ridiculous with my existing army.

I will not change my regiment bases to match the size of new regiments. If that gives me an "advantage" or "disadvantage," so be it.

Lining up my ranked square units in ranked combats against round based units will lead to a mess if it's still "find out who's in base-to-base." And if regiments are still intended to be a thing, why go to round bases in the first place?

The round base thing is what's bugging me. I don't get it. It's a stupid move. Someone might think, "Well, they'll buy new models to replace their existing models, score!" But that's not even remotely true. Round bases in a square-dominated army will look ridiculous, so people who do that will have the look of their army hurt by the change. And round bases might be the norm for skirmish-level games like Warmachine and Malifaux, but they don't rank well - as the need for special bases shows - and certainly not as well as square bases. You know, the square bases we all already have, that work just fine for a skirmish-level game as we saw in Warhammer Skirmish and Mordheim. A gamer would know the move to round bases is a bad idea, especially after 30 years. The design studio would know it's a bad idea. And it terrifies me to think that some corporate schmuck is overriding the design studio with ideas just because he thinks it could earn the company more money.

I'm waiting to see what actually happens to determine my future with the game. If square bases and round bases mixing aren't too much of a mess, I'll just carry on and get square bases for existing armies and assemble the Dwarfs I have laying around on round bases (and finally have an excuse to build them... some of the units are too small for basic WFB games, at least in the modern "MOAR FIGURES!!1!" style). If it's too much of a mess and they're banking on me actually replacing my armies... well, I hear someone else is making a game for ranked fantasy regiments, which will be a lot cheaper, and all the money I'll save no longer buying niche "premium" toy soldiers will go to getting a lot more board games and other miniature games.

Ball's in their court.

And their freaking silence is murder... but probably part of their "genius" plan.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I should just say this: If they make a new edition that my current armies can play in, are valid in (long-term), and don't have a mess trying to work in, I'll gladly get the new edition and play it.

If they try to drag thousands more dollars out of me when they should be trying to keep existing players and get more new players... I'm done.

Which is why I honestly can't see them releasing a rule set that will inavalidate all our square based models. So many people would quit, it would kill the game, myself included. Well, I'd just keep playing 8th edition, but I certainly wouldn't be chucking Gdubs anymore.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Confident prediction: you'll be able to use every model currently in your collection in some form or other, for the reasons above.

[Erik Setzer]

Confident prediction: you'll be able to use every model currently in your collection in some form or other, for the reasons above.

Given that their monopolistic sales approach is also something rather stupid and counterproductive, I'm not going to assume anything of the sort until I see it.

[Wildeybeast]

Yeah, but making everyone rebate all their models? Even GW aren't that stupid. Plus, let's not forget the game designers are also players, is that something they would honestly make us want to do? I doubt it.

How do we think the Internet would react if it turned out there were no changes to bases and GW just made up few models with them on to have a hilarious jape out our expense?

[Solution9]

Yeah, but making everyone rebate all their models? Even GW aren't that stupid. Plus, let's not forget the game designers are also players, is that something they would honestly make us want to do? I doubt it.

How do we think the Internet would react if it turned out there were no changes to bases and GW just made up few models with them on to have a hilarious jape out our expense?

I wouldn't put that past me.

[grimmas]

They'll just do what they've always done, just stop supplying the square bases and let them die off quietly. Rules wise it'll be "use what ever they're supplied with" this is GW. There'll be plenty of the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth from the usual group of Warmachine players who used to play 40K (but never played WFB) for 5 minutes that somehow everything has to be changed, despite the fact that GW has never really cared that much about the rules.

Seriously Erik I wouldnt get too worked up just yet I reckon you'll be alright if nothing else because an edict banning all square bases will simply be too much effort for GW, and they'll still be plenty of places to source more squares to fit in with your existing stuff.

[Erik Setzer]

How do we think the Internet would react

You might have missed this, but GW doesn't care what the Internet thinks. Their writers might, but the guys making the decisions don't. They shut down the own forums and killed off all social media, a move that makes no sense for a company, because they didn't want to deal with customer feedback.

- - - Updated - - -


they'll still be plenty of places to source more squares to fit in with your existing stuff.

I've still got a LOT of square bases in a cases (no idea where they all came from, honestly), and I'm sure I can find more. Heck, even if there weren't already sources, someone would step up to make them, just like people were quick to make 32mm bases and 25-to-32 conversion bits for bases. As much as GW might try to monopolize things, they can't stop an open market (thankfully).

[Mr Mystery]

Customer Feedback, or an echo chamber of verbally abusive posters who refuse to be reasoned with. hurling out insults about a game for those aged 12+? Because I know what I was mostly reading on there....the hate wasn't strong, but it really, really thought it was.

And everyone has spare bases. I swear they breed.

[Erik Setzer]

Customer Feedback, or an echo chamber of verbally abusive posters who refuse to be reasoned with. hurling out insults about a game for those aged 12+? Because I know what I was mostly reading on there....the hate wasn't strong, but it really, really thought it was.

I've read them, too. But other companies get the exact same kind of posters, and they don't just shut the doors and run away and cancel out everything.

Blizzard gets a lot of abuse on their social media. But they also use it to communicate with the customers. And when they see something isn't having a popular effect, they change it. Recently they announced they wouldn't have flying in their newest expansion, then people complained (a lot of it, though, *was* reasoned feedback), and they made a fair compromise. That's how it should work.

Heck, EA might blatantly ignore people, but at least you don't feel like there's no way to voice your opinion to them openly. And they've been called the most hated company in the world. But hey, look at that!

https://www.facebook.com/EA

So, yeah, that tired excuse for why GW shut the doors doesn't fly, and people need to stop trotting it out. You can't excuse a company's poor behavior by attempting to blame the customers. It doesn't work that way. And you look silly when you try that excuse, when so many other companies who get a lot more hate can deal with it.

[Mr Mystery]

And do said companies have as many forums dedicated to their products that pre-dated their own efforts?

I'm guessing no.

[daboarder]

Um yeah i tell you what at least the non ge forums are healthy instead of the slow relics GW boards are

[Path Walker]

Can someone point me to exactly when GW said they don't preview models to "protect IP"? I can't recall that ever being the company line, it's something people have long assumed, they've ever (or ever had to) justify their actions as a business and to be honest, its nothing to do with protecting IP, its to do with making sure that the latest releases are the most exciting and not letting customers save for something coming up down the line.
Would I have bought so much Mechanicum/Skitarii knowing that more Space Marines would be there a month later? Probably not.

[grimmas]

Can someone point me to exactly when GW said they don't preview models to "protect IP"? I can't recall that ever being the company line, it's something people have long assumed, they've ever (or ever had to) justify their actions as a business and to be honest, its nothing to do with protecting IP, its to do with making sure that the latest releases are the most exciting and not letting customers save for something coming up down the line.
Would I have bought so much Mechanicum/Skitarii knowing that more Space Marines would be there a month later? Probably not.

It's people getting confused the "no models, no rules" is an IP protecting thing, the no rumours/early previews is so they can focus people on the current release exactly as you suggest rather than waiting for rumoured further off releases

[Erik Setzer]

And do said companies have as many forums dedicated to their products that pre-dated their own efforts?

I'm guessing no.

Probably in some cases they do. And it's still not an excuse.

Facebook, Twitter, etc. are not replacements for forums. They're direct means of communication between a company and the customer base (or potential customer base). I could let the forum thing go with such an excuse, but it does not work with social media. Social media is not a place for gamers to discuss topics with each other, but rather a way for a company to spread brand awareness and reach out to customers.

No excuse works, at least not from the perspective of a company interested in growing and having a healthy relationship with customers. If you want to be a reclusive company trying to promote an air of being an exclusive group whose products are only for select people, I guess that's one way to go, but it'd be a shame to see a growing set of games be reduced to being an extreme niche market.

[Erik Setzer]

It's people getting confused the "no models, no rules" is an IP protecting thing, the no rumours/early previews is so they can focus people on the current release exactly as you suggest rather than waiting for rumoured further off releases

It came from an old claim that when GW previewed the Lizardmen, some other company supposedly rushed some Lizardmen models to market, and that hurt sales, or... something? I'm not really sure how that would have hurt the company. The Lizardmen always seemed to have a decent following, more so than the Brets who were released at the same time, and Lizardmen had enough interest to warrant a new army book and product line expansion before armies like even the Skaven. And at the time of the Lizardmen's initial release, GW was competitively priced in the market (even before taking into account sales and stuff), so I never really bought that story. It has, however, become the catalyst for explaining why GW won't even tell their own managers what's coming half the time.

GW was able to grow perfectly fine when they showed off stuff months in advance (especially at Games Day, where it was one of the major draws, and the Internet exploded with excitement for upcoming releases after seeing photos people posted from Games Day... made Games Day feel like a major event, I mean, you know, back when it still existed). Changing the strategy to something that risks drawing serious ire from the customers (which I've seen more and more of, especially as they try to release things rapid-fire) is just a bad idea.

To use the example of "I wouldn't have bought so much AdMech if I knew Marines were coming," well, they would have gotten the money anyway. So that's not a good example. The uncertainty is worse. People have stopped buying WFB products because they don't know what's coming in the new edition. Some people are holding back money for the rumored Horus Heresy plastics, and we have no idea if they're real or not. Confirming would allow people to play to throw money at GW if they're real. Denying would let those people spend that money on GW products now, rather than keeping it out of the market. Instead, we see poor managers suffering through sales dips because people don't know what's coming.

As for the "IP" thing, aside from the story on how it started, some companies can be paranoid, and we're talking about a company who is quite extreme about that kind of stuff, going so far as to sue a woman over the name of a book using a pretty generic title. Supposedly a lot of the Warhammer remake is because of "IP" (and I still laugh at that, because it won't work). So yeah, the old narrative fits, now more than ever.

[grimmas]

Yeah weather or not it's a good idea is very debatable they seem to think so though.

[Bigred]

via reader Sleibniz (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/age-of-sigmar-so-whats-in-a-name.html) on BoLS 6-11-2015

A quick summary of the Age of Sigmar Novel by A.Lanning:


I had the chance to spend about 20 minutes with the upcoming book Age of Sigmar by A. Lanning (a novel, not the game) that deals with the aftermath of the end times. The prologue makes it very clear that Sigmar survives and the whole plot takes place after the end times. Nothing that I have read suggests that there is any time travel involved. It is just a continuation of the story on a much broader scale. I think it is safe to say that the game of the same name follows the story of book and doesn't establish a totally different setting.

In the prologue Sigmar survives and pulls the winds of magics through the gap into the warp. In the process the pure untouched currents of the warp are tainted with the personifications of the winds - the Incarnates. This is the birth of eight new minor gods.

But most of the book is not about sigmar or the incarnate gods directly, only three chapters as far as I could see were written from their perspective. The rest of the book is an ordinary fantasy adventure story. The book follows Martellus Mann, a reikguard quartermaster who was slain in the end times, but is reborn in Sigmarshall, the domain of Sigmar.

I then skipped some hundred pages forward so I don't know what happened in the aftermath, but in the middle of the book, he has gathered a large party of heroes from many realms and realities in a quest for something called the spirit mill or soul mill or something like this. I know for sure that there are several worlds and that the protagonist can travel from one to the other but I didn't read a chapter where this was described in person and I don't know if this is part of the game world.

In the middle of the books there is a huge betrayal, sigmarshall is under siege by the armies of the chaos gods. incarnate fights against incarnate and all are cast out from the warp. Mann starts a search for sigmar in the believe that he was reborn somewhere. The second half of the book is set on a world called Regalia. And here it gets interesting: Regalia is the only area/realm/world that has a map in the book. Regalia looks like the old world or earth and has very familiar regions and city names, etc. But there are some huge alterations: there is no Ulthuan, but a huge landbridge that connects Canada with Scandinavia.

There are no elven or dwarven sounding cities or lands but strange sounding names in the Americas and Africa that don't fit any race of the old setting. There is no empire, but lots of different states in Europe and Asia - Nuln, Middenheim, etc are there, but Altdorf is not. There are more things you can deduce from the map if you assume that it represents the setting of the game, which I strongly think it does. Mann finally arrives in the city Heldenheim that is build in the Worlds Edge Mountains just in time to visit the crowning of emperor Karl Franz where he announces his plan to conquer the whole world. Mann thinks that he has found Sigmar and the book jumps to the epilog.

Sigmar is chained somewhere and starts to dwindle, but then he smiles and proclaims that his great work to eliminate the chaos once and for all has only started. He vows to conquer the warp.

I think it is pretty obvious that the game will be set in this new world. Why would they establish all this in the book when the game doesn’t use it at all, but I haven't seen any actual game material (though there is a slim chance that I get a glimpse this weekend - fingers crossed), so take this into account.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm sure there's a lot more that's not included, because those bits sound insane... but probably would sound less insane with the full story.

Still sounds just... peculiar.

But yeah, don't have the full story, so can't really glean anything from that. :-\

[Wildeybeast]

Hmm. very interesting. Separate worlds opens up the possibility for different scale games, as well as worlds that have all the wacky End Times/SoM type rules. They could add near limitless expansions without affecting the core rules or needing to alter the background.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I won't judge it till I see the whole thing but I am intrigued and will keep an open mind.

[Erik Setzer]

I won't judge it till I see the whole thing but I am intrigued and will keep an open mind.

Yeah, I'm not saying a "final judgment," just that the bits presented here, which could be missing a LOT, sound like an insane (not in a good way) idea. Parts of that sounded interesting, parts made me scratch my head. There's no way to know what the real story is until we have a good solid background book in our hands.

[Houghten]

I rather hope that stuff is true, purely because it would mean Grimgor is now a god.

[Mr Mystery]

Hmm.

In the words of Uncle Grandpa.....

Embrace the weird!

[Houghten]

Last time I embraced the weird it dribbled ectoplasm all over my shirt.

[Mr Mystery]

All part of the fun.

And are you sure that was the weird?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Honestly that sounds pretty fun. Dimension spanning fantasy warfare? Yes please!

I think it's also becoming clearer and clearer that Sigmar is the Emperor of Mankind. Fight me.

[daboarder]

Honestly that sounds pretty fun. Dimension spanning fantasy warfare? Yes please!

I think it's also becoming clearer and clearer that Sigmar is the Emperor of Mankind. Fight me.

totally not bubble hammer though, remember if its not SPECIFICALLY bubblehammer the idea and concept MUST have been wrong......
Meh sounds like they junked fantasy and they decided on this inbetween sillyness. the Old IP was far from stale, didnt need the nuclear background option to invigorate the game.

still I guess we will see

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

What always put me off the original WHF was I just found it too generic for my taste and found it boring. I love some of the tomb kings stuff and the skaven were always great but not much beyond that ever had much interest to me - there were some things I liked more as a kid too but tastes change. If they have more unique and weirder stuff I'd probably be much more tempted. At the same time I guess I can empathise with people that liked things as they were and won't take to the changes. I can see things being very dividing - but whether it works out or not, I guess we'll all have to wait and see

[Wildeybeast]

Agreed. Whilst the fluff was fine, most of it was pretty generic. Hell, it used our world as the map for goodness sake. At least 40k takes a number of generic sci-fi elements and blends them together into something interestign and fairly unique. Anything which makes Warhammer more unique can only be a good thing. Unless its rubbish.

[Erik Setzer]

What always put me off the original WHF was I just found it too generic for my taste and found it boring.

I take it you don't play 40K then?

Let's see:

Space Elves
Space Orks
Space Ogres
Space Halflings
Space Dwarfs... oh, right, they killed them (and then sort of brought them back with a different name)
Bug Swarm
Gundam
Space Marines (so generic that lawyers laughed at them trying to copyright it, especially when their own are rip-offs of Heinlein)
Space Soldiers
Metal Undead in Space (Egyptian, at that!)
Viking Space Marines
Vampire Space Marines
Nobody Expects the Inquisition!
Giant Fighting Robots
Evil Space Elves
Demons
Evil Versions of "Good" Warriors

Well, I suppose the Adeptus Mechanicus, on a basic level, is not that generic. So... yay for having *one* group that isn't generic sci-fi slightly modified to fit the 40K background?

When people claim WFB is "too generic," I laugh, especially if they play 40K. They're both "generic" and they can't help it. Every idea's been done lots of times. The only ideas that are "fresh" are the ones too stupid to roll with (and even they occasionally pop up as someone thinks "I'll be the one to make this work!").

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed. Whilst the fluff was fine, most of it was pretty generic. Hell, it used our world as the map for goodness sake. At least 40k takes a number of generic sci-fi elements and blends them together into something interestign and fairly unique. Anything which makes Warhammer more unique can only be a good thing. Unless its rubbish.

Hmm. 40K is our own universe, and even centers the Imperium on Earth.

If they hadn't tried so hard to separate the two universes (and then admitted again that they're the same), it would have made sense. The Old Ones seeded a lot of planets and created a lot of races, and it makes sense to have a basic blueprint for a planetary structure.

But then, the description in this topic also says that it's going to be pretty much the same world with a few alterations. So I guess it's still too generic.

And please, people, stop saying Fantasy-in-Space/All-the-Sci-Fi-Tropes is "unique" compared to WFB. It's not. Putting Fantasy elements in space doesn't suddenly make them no longer generic, nor does it make the generic sci-fi tropes less generic.

It's okay to have "generic" elements. Game of Thrones does it. Harry Potter did it. Plenty of successful settings do it. And they're interesting settings. WFB and 40K have interesting settings even with - not "despite" - their generic stuff.

The only people who don't like it are the ones who think they can really make a monopoly... but it won't happen. You can't make something so different that no one could make their own version.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I take it you don't play 40K then?

Let's see:

Space Elves
Space Orks
Space Ogres
Space Halflings
Space Dwarfs... oh, right, they killed them (and then sort of brought them back with a different name)
Bug Swarm
Gundam
Space Marines (so generic that lawyers laughed at them trying to copyright it, especially when their own are rip-offs of Heinlein)
Space Soldiers
Metal Undead in Space (Egyptian, at that!)
Viking Space Marines
Vampire Space Marines
Nobody Expects the Inquisition!
Giant Fighting Robots
Evil Space Elves
Demons
Evil Versions of "Good" Warriors

Well, I suppose the Adeptus Mechanicus, on a basic level, is not that generic. So... yay for having *one* group that isn't generic sci-fi slightly modified to fit the 40K background?

When people claim WFB is "too generic," I laugh, especially if they play 40K. They're both "generic" and they can't help it. Every idea's been done lots of times. The only ideas that are "fresh" are the ones too stupid to roll with (and even they occasionally pop up as someone thinks "I'll be the one to make this work!").

- - - Updated - - -



Hmm. 40K is our own universe, and even centers the Imperium on Earth.

If they hadn't tried so hard to separate the two universes (and then admitted again that they're the same), it would have made sense. The Old Ones seeded a lot of planets and created a lot of races, and it makes sense to have a basic blueprint for a planetary structure.

But then, the description in this topic also says that it's going to be pretty much the same world with a few alterations. So I guess it's still too generic.

And please, people, stop saying Fantasy-in-Space/All-the-Sci-Fi-Tropes is "unique" compared to WFB. It's not. Putting Fantasy elements in space doesn't suddenly make them no longer generic, nor does it make the generic sci-fi tropes less generic.

It's okay to have "generic" elements. Game of Thrones does it. Harry Potter did it. Plenty of successful settings do it. And they're interesting settings. WFB and 40K have interesting settings even with - not "despite" - their generic stuff.

The only people who don't like it are the ones who think they can really make a monopoly... but it won't happen. You can't make something so different that no one could make their own version.


I didn't say I didn't think 40k wasn't generic. It is, it just happens that SF has more tropes that I enjoy. I'm far pickier with fantasy in general and it needs a bit more for me to be able to enjoy it. No ones made a fantasy game that has grabbed me yet, allthough I've been tempted to go homebrewn. Some come close like Bushido and Mallifaux but don't have any factions I like enough to invest in, plus the model count is too small for me. I'd like to see a japanese mythological based wargame that has lots of weird creatures you get their folklore which I am rather fascinated by.

But yes, I don't play 40k, and most of my armies (except the generic necrons, which I am a shameless sucker for) are non-official factions like Enslavers, Cult of the Dragon admech and Uluméathic League.

The only ideas that are "fresh" are the ones too stupid to roll with


Each to their own. My ideas might be stupid to some people but I'm doing it because it's what i want to see and it is my passion.

[Wildeybeast]

I take it you don't play 40K then?

Let's see:

Space Elves
Space Orks
Space Ogres
Space Halflings
Space Dwarfs... oh, right, they killed them (and then sort of brought them back with a different name)
Bug Swarm
Gundam
Space Marines (so generic that lawyers laughed at them trying to copyright it, especially when their own are rip-offs of Heinlein)
Space Soldiers
Metal Undead in Space (Egyptian, at that!)
Viking Space Marines
Vampire Space Marines
Nobody Expects the Inquisition!
Giant Fighting Robots
Evil Space Elves
Demons
Evil Versions of "Good" Warriors

Well, I suppose the Adeptus Mechanicus, on a basic level, is not that generic. So... yay for having *one* group that isn't generic sci-fi slightly modified to fit the 40K background?

When people claim WFB is "too generic," I laugh, especially if they play 40K. They're both "generic" and they can't help it. Every idea's been done lots of times. The only ideas that are "fresh" are the ones too stupid to roll with (and even they occasionally pop up as someone thinks "I'll be the one to make this work!").

- - - Updated - - -



Hmm. 40K is our own universe, and even centers the Imperium on Earth.

If they hadn't tried so hard to separate the two universes (and then admitted again that they're the same), it would have made sense. The Old Ones seeded a lot of planets and created a lot of races, and it makes sense to have a basic blueprint for a planetary structure.

But then, the description in this topic also says that it's going to be pretty much the same world with a few alterations. So I guess it's still too generic.

And please, people, stop saying Fantasy-in-Space/All-the-Sci-Fi-Tropes is "unique" compared to WFB. It's not. Putting Fantasy elements in space doesn't suddenly make them no longer generic, nor does it make the generic sci-fi tropes less generic.

It's okay to have "generic" elements. Game of Thrones does it. Harry Potter did it. Plenty of successful settings do it. And they're interesting settings. WFB and 40K have interesting settings even with - not "despite" - their generic stuff.

The only people who don't like it are the ones who think they can really make a monopoly... but it won't happen. You can't make something so different that no one could make their own version.

I'm not saying being generic is a problem nor am I criticising it. I quite enjoy both 40k and Warhammer backgrounds. But the Warhammer background always felt like what it was, a rather generic fantasy setting the evolved out of D&D. 40k by comparison takes generic elements (space marines, orks, Terminators, Aliens, etc) and blends them together in an interesting way that makes it feel relatively original. Warhammer didn't feel like it did that so well.

Compare Warhammer with GoT. There is nothing new in GoT (the map is basically our world) and it's effectively War of the Roses with dragons and ice zombies. Doesn't sound particularly original, but works really well. Warhammer was more just generic orks, generic elves, generic chivalric knights, generic Undead etc., dumped in a generic world. It was missing that je ne sais quoi to blend them altogether.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"Anything which makes Warhammer more unique can only be a good thing. Unless its rubbish."

This is basically where I stand.

[Erik Setzer]

Compare Warhammer with GoT. There is nothing new in GoT (the map is basically our world) and it's effectively War of the Roses with dragons and ice zombies. Doesn't sound particularly original, but works really well. Warhammer was more just generic orks, generic elves, generic chivalric knights, generic Undead etc., dumped in a generic world. It was missing that je ne sais quoi to blend them altogether.

It would have worked fine if they hadn't started phoning it in. They cut out some of the interesting stuff, and weren't willing to expand. It would have been a relatively easy fix, but, well, that takes a bit of effort and studying the customer base and paying writers to stick around and think.

[Bigred]

via Rhellion (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sml25k) 6-12-2015 (via twitter/twitlonger)


"Good afternoon,

Games Workshop is launching the Age of Sigmar - a completely new system – on July 11th. You can start promoting the Age of Sigmar in your store today!

What is the Age of Sigmar?

· The Age of Sigmar is a brand new system that continues the End Times story

· This system is a great way for new customers to start collecting fantasy miniatures

· Existing customers will be able to use their current miniature collections and add to them with the Age of Sigmar

It is a continuation of the story line, but not going back to the old world. 100% of the models available now will continue to be supported. The audience for this launch is not the dwindling number of Fantasy players, but for EVERYONE including the veterans but with the idea that this isn't "just" 9th edition which will just loose them more players but a whole new mechanic to draw people in.

They are actually doing trade shows and cons this year to drive interest in the game.

This is a continuation of the story of End Times but NOT the old world. If a model is currently for sale by GW it will be usable in some way.

I don't have confirmation of the horrible "reality bubbles" rumor, but he (HIS GW REP) is going to ask about it.

I'll be getting significantly more info the week of the 29th, with the idea of doing a build up event the week of the 4th."



Some notes on this:

1) This reads like a message sent from GW to retailers to get them preliminary info on the upcoming product to pass onto customers.

2) Note the emphasis on NEW players STARTING fantasy miniature collecting...

3) "the dwindling number of Fantasy players, but for EVERYONE" That's a bit of an unvarnished take on where things stand with WFB.

4) If a model is currently for sale by GW it will be usable in some way.

This is one of the most brutally honest descriptions of WFB and what GW hopes to achieve with Age of Sigmar. It sounds more like acomplete reboot with the intention of bringing in a whole new wave of brand new players and sweep the existing WFB players along with the tide doesn't it? It certainly doesn't have the sound of an incremental releases and ruleset compared to WFB 8th.

[daboarder]

Blaming the death of fantasy on the playerbase?.....yeah this sounds like GW

[Mr Mystery]

Curiouser and curiouser....

Bit about GW rep.....could be asking because he doesn't know, or because he's not sure if he can reveal.

Cash Cannon is developing an itchy trigger.

[Wildeybeast]

Would a GW rep really be honest enough to say that the numbers of fantasy players are dwindling? Especially when there is no way to actually verify that. I have had no dealings with them, but it seems like an odd thing for them to say.

[Mr Mystery]

Unlikely.

Seems more like its a third party report of first hand info.

[Erik Setzer]

Eh. I'm just lukewarm at best now. I was already made properly paranoid by GW, but right now I know I'm not going to prime my bank account to throw $85 at Games Workshop for a book for a game I know nothing about only to see the rulebook be a warped mess just because I briefly left it in conditions that better produced books (and even older GW books) can handle easily.

If we were dealing with a real company, who gave a flip about their customer base, we'd know something concrete right now, straight from the source. Instead, all we get is cryptic posters about something that isn't even confirmed as a game or new edition, less than one month out. And the rumors just keep conflicting, and now it seems like they're being aimed to soothe people, but all I can think is, "If you had to blow up the world and completely redo it, how the heck are all these models still usable, given that you're seeking to completely redo the races?" Doesn't add up. They might be usable in some short-term rules that come out initially to get people to buy the game, and then wham! We get "proper" army books that introduce the new copyrightable (ha!) aesthetic of the army, wiping out all unit entries for prior models.

It keeps coming back to, "If things were so 'stale' and had to be completely redone, how is anything still useful, given that to keep those models in the background would require keeping the background relatively close to what it was?"

Actually, I'm probably asking too many questions to be a proper Games Workshop customer. The proper Games Workshop customer answers every new release with "Fire up the cash gun to fire more cash at Games Workshop! In Games Workshop We Trust! God Save Games Workshop!"

[Paintingplasticcrack]

Would a GW rep really be honest enough to say that the numbers of fantasy players are dwindling? Especially when there is no way to actually verify that. I have had no dealings with them, but it seems like an odd thing for them to say.

GW games in general are no longer the "go to" games in my area. X-Wing, Infinity and Malifaux are all gaining popularity. I don't think it's much of a stretch of the imagination to say the fantasy player base is dwindling. It's been played less and less both in the UK before I left and not at all where I am now. Hell 40k no longer holds the monopoly any more. It's still a popular game, but others are just as popular if not more so. X-Wing especially.

[Wildeybeast]

No I don't think it is a stretch to say player numbers were dwindling, indeed I think it's quite probable. My point is simply that there is no way to actually evidence it beyond anecdotal accounts, which aren't evidence. GW sales of Warhammer may well have been dropping off, but there are more possible reasons for that than decreasing player numbers.

[Mr Mystery]

Eh. I'm just lukewarm at best now. I was already made properly paranoid by GW, but right now I know I'm not going to prime my bank account to throw $85 at Games Workshop for a book for a game I know nothing about only to see the rulebook be a warped mess just because I briefly left it in conditions that better produced books (and even older GW books) can handle easily.

If we were dealing with a real company, who gave a flip about their customer base, we'd know something concrete right now, straight from the source. Instead, all we get is cryptic posters about something that isn't even confirmed as a game or new edition, less than one month out. And the rumors just keep conflicting, and now it seems like they're being aimed to soothe people, but all I can think is, "If you had to blow up the world and completely redo it, how the heck are all these models still usable, given that you're seeking to completely redo the races?" Doesn't add up. They might be usable in some short-term rules that come out initially to get people to buy the game, and then wham! We get "proper" army books that introduce the new copyrightable (ha!) aesthetic of the army, wiping out all unit entries for prior models.

It keeps coming back to, "If things were so 'stale' and had to be completely redone, how is anything still useful, given that to keep those models in the background would require keeping the background relatively close to what it was?"

Actually, I'm probably asking too many questions to be a proper Games Workshop customer. The proper Games Workshop customer answers every new release with "Fire up the cash gun to fire more cash at Games Workshop! In Games Workshop We Trust! God Save Games Workshop!"

Suddenly I feel such a tit for spending money on stuff I enjoy.

To correct the error of my ways, I shall throw out all my DVDs, VHS, Bluray, CDs, GW stuff, X-Wing stuff, World of Darkness Stuff, put my foot through my telly, cancel all my subscriptions, and instead spend every single penny I can in ****ty nightclubs, poncey wine bars (the more expensive the better) eat nothing but Vegan with no spices, give up booze and diet coke, sleep on a bed of broken glass, and generally set about making myself as miserable as possible. Oh, and quit smoking, working in a job I really enjoy, and y'know, apparently be sane and only spend money on stuff I don't enjoy.

[grimmas]

Well not hearing anything I don't like 😀

Seriously considering rebasing my small warriors of chaos army to get ahead of the game, I might be getting a little over excited but it's just been soooo long since a new edition has been anything other than rules tweeks

[Wildeybeast]

You probably should quit smoking. ;) Erik does have a point (though expressed in profoundly whiny way) about getting over eager to spend money on something we have exactly no idea about. If it were just 9th, I'd probably be getting excited too, but this seems like a radical change and I have no idea about whether or not I'm going to be happy about that change.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm just someone who is easily enthused. Always have been.

Show me shiny, show me new, and I'll get all excite.

If the latest rumour is accurate, it blows a lot of earlier ones out the water, such as units being ditched and armies being ditched. And many of those also mentioned Bubblehammer and 'all round'....

[Kirsten]

I am looking forward to it whatever it is, give me a new starter set full of new models please.

[Mr Mystery]

Yarp.

And I'm also very much one to form my own opinion based on personal experience, hence wanting to get my mitts on it asap. Will it be mixed scale! Will it be all round bases? Buggered if I know. But I do know I'll be getting my copy 10 am sharp on the 11th, then scarper off up the pub with it to have a bloody good read.

Well, I might hang around in the shop for an hour or two...makes me look less like I have a drink problem (which I don't think I do - the previous line was for comedic effect)

[Paintingplasticcrack]

I'm just someone who is easily enthused. Always have been.

Show me shiny, show me new, and I'll get all excite.

If the latest rumour is accurate, it blows a lot of earlier ones out the water, such as units being ditched and armies being ditched. And many of those also mentioned Bubblehammer and 'all round'....

Let's be honest GW could varnish dog turds, say there are ltd edition scenery and ask $150 each and you would buy them. They would be shiny. :D

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Those I'd make myself.

[General Lee]

What I really want to know (and sorry if it has already been mentioned) aside from the army books, will they be discontinuing their current kits? If so I'll need to stock up on wood elves and dark elves......

[Erik Setzer]

It's one thing to spend money on what you want. It's another thing to be trying to throw money at a product you know literally nothing about.

I'm excited about a lot of things... when I know something about them. Even without the E3 info, we knew more about Fallout 4 - a game coming out months from now - than we know to date about Whatever-is-Replacing-or-Upgrading-Warhammer, which is coming in just three weeks. It might be something that is set up to lead to eventually phasing out all my armies I've spent thousands on. It might have a rules set that makes no sense. The background might be so insane that a child wouldn't write it. We don't know. It could be the worst thing ever.

I don't care that you'd gladly buy a steaming pile of dog turds in a box without knowing you're buying it or caring that you're buying something like that. Whatever. My issue is being treated like it's wrong to be apprehensive about something that we know nothing about, with the company being exceptionally tight-lipped. More so after yesterday, where I dropped $60 (well, more than that with tax) on a brand new book, some "premium" quality according to the "Games Workshop is da best!" people, and within a couple hours of having it the book is a warped mess that is tough to read. I have literally never had a book do that, including prior GW books. So yeah, I'm not going to rush to throw money at a product I know nothing about, except that they'll charge more for a book than other companies will charge for books that they likely spent more on the production of, and which might be wrecked if I make the mistake of leaving it in the car like I do with, well, pretty much everything except Failcast models (which I only own two of, and one of them I gave up on because it has a lot of spindly bits that snap off if you look at it funny, even without handling it... and you might recognize handling a gaming figure as a necessary action for using it for its intended purpose of playing games).

So sure, you go ahead and be eager to throw all your money at something that for all you know could be a turd in a box that you'll be happy to own. But don't act like it's wrong to be concerned that we might get a turd because the company selling it thinks the customers are the enemy and must not know anything until their money is safely in hand.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

How long has this same argument been going on? Give it a rest, already. We all know your positions by now.

I agree: it'd be nice - indeed, it would've been better - to have some information, any information at all. Conversely, I don't think GW's track record is bad enough to maintain an attitude of total skepticism. This isn't the same as thinking "GW are the best!", just that I don't think their record is actually bad enough on most matters to earn the kind of vitriolic response almost anything new or rumoured seems to get here on the internet (and it is mostly on the internet in my experience). We're a couple of weeks away from starting to see the shape of things. We can make up our minds when we can see what's coming out! Until then it's all just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Which is - I know! - a result of the lack of information and the extent to which people really care. But still! Let's all chill!

[40kGamer]

GW sales of Warhammer may well have been dropping off, but there are more possible reasons for that than decreasing player numbers.

This has to be a huge issue for GW... there may be a lot of WFB players milling about, but if they have everything they need how do you get them to spend more $? Not easy to do... and if you can't attract new players, which it seems they are having some trouble doing, then it gets to be a real problem! It will be interesting to see how they try to spin this.

[Path Walker]

New Warhammer is coming, the fluff will be revitilized, all your models will be fine to use, some units (going by the displays at Warhammer World when I visited this weekend) like War Machines, Monsters, Daemons and Blight Kings will be able to deploy in a loose formation on round bases (for aesthetics if you want to use square thats not an issue). We all know this, it doesn't need to be explicitly spelt out, some people will find stuff to whine about, but thats their problem. After visiting the Exhibition Hall, I'm pumped for Fantasy, there were three absolutley gob smacking huge Fantasy Dioramas there all set in The End Times, Tons of Orcs and Goblins laying seige to an Imperial City, a horde of Nurgle marching to war from a stronghold, Daemons and plague ogres and Blight Kings by the hundreds and most impressive was the Skaven and Dwarf battle in the caves and tunnels under the mountains, that one you could walk all around and had so much depth and hidden little corners and passageways with things happening.

Incidentally, Daemons never did strike me as an army that would march in close formation, rather than swarming all over the enemy ranks in a seething mass of warp-flesh, so if this change allows them to do that, I'm happy

[grimmas]

I was thinking myself that quite a few armies would be more likely to work in a loose formation of warriors rather than the right ranks of professional soldiers, most orcs, shaven or chaos marauders for example. Warhammer ancients had a number of formations to replicate this and it was really rather good.

[Path Walker]

I can see them keeping Orc Mobs/ Skaven Hordes just for the ease of moving them around the table, but yeah, more types of detachments would be fun

[Trojan66]

Morning all ! Hey Mr M...I was wondering how confident you were about my status as a liar, now the end is nearly upon us ?
I will gladly apologise for spreading false rumours should that prove to be the case...will you apologise for your misguided twaddle should I be proven correct ?

[Mr Mystery]

Oh absolutely, given you confirmed you made stuff up.

But hey, don't let those pesky facts get in the way ;)

Also, no units dropped - lie from you about that.

Simplified game play 'simpler than snap' I believe you said? Well, that remains to be seen, but I'm confident that was another lie.

[Erik Setzer]

So hey, remember the people claiming that the books being pulled off the shelves but still being sold was because they'd totally go right back out there once AoS was launched, but for whatever reason they just decided to yank them for a month and hide them?

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-end-times-for-warhammer-fantasy.html

So, yeah, they *were* just keeping them around in case anyone wanted them before they tossed them all in a dump somewhere. Which is just a smart move, because some folks will likely want to buy that stuff, and it's better than writing it off as a loss.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah. And there's still fun background in those books, even if you don't want to use them for continuity-8th edition or whatever. 'course, it'd be nicer if they put them all on reduced-to-clear sale, but hey-ho!

[quindia]

Truth or Troll?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/643158.page

Half way down, someone spent a ridiculous amount of time coming up with fiction if it's not true...

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah. And there's still fun background in those books, even if you don't want to use them for continuity-8th edition or whatever. 'course, it'd be nicer if they put them all on reduced-to-clear sale, but hey-ho!

Strangely, they'd rather throw books away (after tearing off the cover at the very least, of course) than actually have any kind of sale ever.

[Mr Mystery]

Someone on Dakka has 'called him' on it already, and Mikhaila (who reported dual basing system thing) is a retailer (Confimed from my time on Dakka, which I otherwise try to forget).

Still, it's all very interesting.

[Erik Setzer]

Truth or Troll?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/643158.page

Half way down, someone spent a ridiculous amount of time coming up with fiction if it's not true...


Holy smokes, I hope that's just a lot of time spent on fiction, because that sounds... well, just ridiculous.

As a new game, I *might* be open to it, though it sounds strange and almost like someone threw random stuff together to make a game.

But to replace Warhammer? A game of fantasy battles that's existed for 30 years? Wipe it out and replace it with literal Herohammer, with a completely different statline and set of rules? And that background... WTF?!?!?!?!? If they seriously renamed every race just to copyright their own version of fantasy tropes, that will be their serious "jumping the shark" moment.

No preorders for me, I want to see what the heck this thing is for real before I hand over my hard-earned money.

[Mr Mystery]

His own rumours have contradictions...makes reference to the game being in three books (ala 40k), then mentions 'the two books' twice...

No photos of new miniatures, except a couple which may be from the AoS box....the contents of which he then goes on to describe

Not conclusive like, but worth considering that any rumours which aren't even internally consistent are quite possibly shonky.

[quindia]

Yep, not saying I believe it, just pointing it out to readers here.

To play Devil's Advocate, some have pointed out that the poster is from Germany and likely reading/writing in his second language so they are probably translation errors. He is also writing from memory (which makes me wonder how he remembers all those names... I know I couldn't have done that).

Finally we all hear that retailers usually don't know any more than we do... Someone took the time to point out where Mikhaila had been wrong in the past after citing his retail insiderness...

Shrug... We'll know in a few weeks!

[Mr Mystery]

I have a fairly freakish memory, but that does seem rather a lot.

Also far from convinced by much of the rumour. Just seems, I dunno. Off.

But I may be wrong, and it may be totes on the level. I just don't see it.

[40kGamer]

Yeah. And there's still fun background in those books, even if you don't want to use them for continuity-8th edition or whatever. 'course, it'd be nicer if they put them all on reduced-to-clear sale, but hey-ho!

Ah for the good old days of the early 90s when GW actually did clearance items. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Late 90's and early 00's too :p

One other thing that's bugging me....the name of the Elven Gods....doesn't sound especially Elven as we know it, and the Elves have a cyclical mythology.....

More I think about it, the more I think it's either misremembered or sillyfungames.

[Erik Setzer]

It did read like someone whose first language wasn't English.

And hey, some people can remember a lot, at least for a short time, if it's important to them. And games see the later version of their game as important.

[Al Shut]

One other thing that's bugging me....the name of the Elven Gods....doesn't sound especially Elven as we know it, and the Elves have a cyclical mythology.....


Isn't Ynnead an Eldar god or something like that?

[Mr Mystery]

Something like that - though may be eldar specific, and is theoretical rather than existent?

[Bigred]

via Dakka's Sinalelbniz (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/643158.page)6-16-2015

+++MAJOR NaCl Alert - You Have Been Warned+++

Age of Sigmar Description

No, no, no. No square bases, no rank and file, no two game systems.

-------------------------

I had the chance to look thoroughly through the proper Age of Sigmar rulebook (the one that consists of three books) yesterday evening. Spent my time with the three books and ignored the novel in favour of the real interesting things. So I cannot fill in the blanks there. But maybe I have the opportunity to look at the rulebook and novel again and hopefully the age of sigmar box, too. But now I have a way clearer picture what’s coming and I’d like to share with you because I am very (!!!) excited, but I cannot provide any photos for obvious reasons. So if you don’t believe me, I don’t blame you. But please don’t attack me personally.

- Title of the rulebook is: Age of Sigmar: a Warhammer strategy game
- first the basics (most of which are already known):
- full fledged rule system; no skirmish game - meaning not restricted to low miniature count: 50 models on average, way lower possible, in general you use units but you can field an army consisting of only single models
- everything is on round or oval bases (there paragraph that explicitly allows legacy and diorama bases, though);
- 2 books: the rules (rules and scenarios) and compendium (pictures, unit cards and fluff)
- there are unit cards for every (as far as I can see) old unit in the second book, including warhammer forge models and most or all special characters. Some units get the full treatment with a small fluff text, pictures of the actual miniatures and rules, some units get only rules with nothing more.
- all new rules with complete new mechanics: think not of 40k 2nd -> 3rd but Warhammer 8th -> Bloodbowl, very compact and fast paced, huge emphasis on individual champions, magic and gods (don’t know how powerful, but these have the most rule pages)
- no photos (and no artworks except some very generic drawings) of new miniatures except a couple chaos and human miniatures that are very likely from the Age of Sigmar box.
- all the races are in, but some are clearly favored. There are few pictures of beastmen and lizardmen for example and some units like steamtanks, gunpowder units (Skaven and new-dwarfs use them still), etc. can only be fielded as mercenaries from a different world or summoned units (in case of most special characters, there is even a picture of a Teclis painted in ghost colors)
- the tech level is between and ancient roman empire and early medieval times, lots of nomadic barbarian tribes, etc. But judging by to the age of sigmar miniatures the armour design draws only a little bit from history and is has a very stylized high-fantasy design instead
- there are lots of different people, races, gods and lots of different alliances. The world is a lot more open minded than the old one, Empire-Orc Alliance would be unthinkable, but a human-waaghkin force is nothing unusual in this setting

Army building
- you pick one or more gods that determine the theurgic or magic schools (don’t know what the difference is, sorry) you can use and how your champions get power-ups during the game. You can take several gods, but they have to be from the same pantheon - so no nurgle-sigmar armies, but Nagash-Morr is possible.Then you choose whichever unit you want - from every race. There is no limit as far as I can tell.
- The only mechanic that I have spotted that limits the useful choices somehow is that most spells and special rules only affect units with certain traits, the powers of Grimgor (magic and gods are always connected, each lore has a patron god that grants the power) affects only mortals or enemy units in the proximity of mortals.
- There are only rules for one pantheon in the rule book, all the other gods and pantheons are only mentioned in the fluff
- Guardians of Regalia, a conglomerate native spirits and gods and lately some new gods, the incarnates Grimgor, Gelt and Nagash, there are thousand of gods and their relevance changes over time and in different regions, but there are seven big gods that have seven schools of magic associated with them and have rules in the book
- Geshemet or Gesheket or something like this (male and female, fertility, natural disaster) is the head of the pantheon, the other six gods are dual pair of good and evil:
two death gods: Nagahs and Morr
two smith and labour gods: Hashut and Gelt
two war gods: Grimgor and Myrmidia
- five other pantheon get a page of fluff each, and additional minor pantheons/deities are mentioned in the fluff. The big five are Chaos, Sigmar, Cuth’adai (elven gods), Exoatl (old ones) and the triumvi-rats (Horned Rat + 2 more)
- all characters can earn favor of their gods and get promoted just like the chaos champions until they reach apotheosis, this is also a huge mechanic in the game + you can field gods or at least their avatars, but only three incarnates have rules in the book

Rules
- there is only one ruleset (don’t know what is in the AoS box, but in the book there is no distinction between skirmish mode and battle mode or something like this)
- rules have nothing to do with the old warhammer rules,
- profile is: Melee, Range, Might, Armour, Initiative, Resolve, Wounds, values from 1-6, lower is better
- simple turn sequence: initiative -> player 1 unit 1 moves, shoots, casts -> p1 unit 2 moves, shoots, casts -> ... -> player 2 moves, shoots, casts -> melee
- players roll always against each other, for example Melee vs Initiative and Range vs Initiative, Might vs Armour
- units regenerate all lost wounds at the end of the phase
- both sides in a melee fight simultaneously, winner can roll to fight instantaneously another round until one side is extinct or one side chooses to break from the combat
- there is no moral system or combat resolution whatsoever, but unit can be bounced back
- units use a 1” 40k formation without any facing
- magic spells are all one-use only, when you use it, you have to discard the card
- you can collect ascension points throughout the game and spend the point to buff your champions, mechanic depends on your god(s)
- unit costs points as before, you are not allowed to field multiple units of the same kind unless the former unit have full strength - there are all kinds of unit sizes from 1-3 to 3-15 (that’s the highest I have seen), but you can field lots of different 1-man units
- you don’t buy champions, a set number of models are automatically upgraded to champions, but you cannot exceed the limit
- there are rules for different weapons, magic items, war engines, monsters, special rules, etc and a large section for scenarios and terrain, larger than the actual rules


Setting
game is set on world Regalia that is connected with other young realms through portals of the old ones. Young realms are realms that were populated by the old creators and were guided on similar historical paths. They were untouched by chaos but this has changed since the arrival of sigmar (as a new faith) and archaon (as an actual emissary in flesh and blood)

there is no explanation (or just a brief one so that I have missed it) how this all came to be, just a description of the history of Regalia (and to a lesser extent some neighbouring realms)

On Regalia is dominated by hundreds of human kingdoms. Fast travel is possible through a number of stone circles that allows mages to open portal from one to another and a system of streams and seas under the earth that can be navigated by ship. There were a long period of peace curated by the Exoatl (Old Ones) that watched over the world from the North and Southpole. But then suddenly new faiths arrived, lots of human tribes started to pray to Sigmar and to conquer their neighbouring kingdoms. These lands are each independent, but are united in their faith to Sigmar. The history ends with the conquering of the Worlds Edge mountains and the crowning of the first emperor. At the same time, the first agents of Chaos arrived and began to corrupt the native people. A part of the Waaghkins rebelled against the old ones in favour of new gods, the Skaven arrived the first time, and in the south and east a death cult began to spread. The world is in turmoil. There are lots of unfinished story hooks so I think the story will be continued, but that might be wishful thinking.

humans are the majority in this world and they have kingdom and tribes everywhere, most of the known earth-inspired regions like cathay are there, but they are not described as fully flegded feudal nations but constantly changing petty empires and nomadic people ruled by warlords and champions of the gods. there are two factions of humans, the worshippers of sigmar and the polytheistic rest, both are not monocultural, but have different skin colors and cultures. Women fight beside men!

The dominion of sigmar is special, because they are the only ones that are reluctant to allow any other race than humans. They have only one god and their goal is to destroy all other gods and conquer their domains - for the greater good of the world of course. This has nothing in common with the Empire of the old world, except the heraldry, griffons are still en vogue. All tribes and city states and kingdoms are independent, the only common ground is their faith, the emperor is only a warlord with the purpose to expands the dominion towards the east. There a still knightly orders, zealots, witchhunters - so they retain some of their medieval flair but there are no state troops. There is no gunpowder, except from some dwarven imports, but they are known for using large warwaggons on their trek to the east. Kislec, Estalia, Araby, city states of Bretonnia, Norse and tribes of the Reiklands are part of the dominion. There are also some enclaves scattered across the world that are connected with magic portals

The Skaven arrived on their own on Regalia and are basically the same. Haven’t spent much time on them. They have now three gods called the triumvi-rat …..

Dawikorr (dwarfs) and Inneadim (elfs) have their own realms that are connected with Regalia. The Inneadim have outposts in America.

Dawikorr are only a legend on Regalia and nobody has seen them, but there are legends that they aid whorshippers of Sigmar in peril. They deliver the dominions of Sigmar with artifacts. They live underneath the world Karak Korr and guard the Soul Mill. Dawikorr have rules, so they can be fielded.

The Soul Mill is a huge machinery that allows minor deities to feed on the power of dead spirits or let them reincarnate or serve them as guardian hosts. It was built by the surviving dwarves of the old world on command of the Incarnates on a older machinery of the old ones. The dwarfs guard the soul mill and are aligned with Sigmar after the shattering of the Incarnates, but are under siege of the skaven that have found their way on this world and managed to steal two mighty souls that formed their new gods.

Inneadim whorship the dreamers, gods that have dreamt themselves, basically the elven gods. They live on their own world and protect the dreamchild. Under Araloth they founded enclaves on Regalia in search for the archelves, lost gods of their pantheon. They are a darker take on the elves, nightmare are as much part of their culture then dreams. They use necromancy and the death god Ynnead is at the centre of their pantheon. But they still live in symbiosis with the nature. The artwork shows an elf on a feathered mount, not like a chocobo, but more like a feathered raptor. the artbook shows pictures (and rules) from all existing elf armies.

Skaven and Dawikorr are the only races that use blackpowder, the rest of Regalia is on stuck on an ancient/medieval tech level. The Exoatl use magic techno gear. There is a certain level of anachronistic gear but it is not steampunk but powered by ancient magic. The only steampunk elements are in the Skaven and to a lesser extent the neo-dwarven fluff.

Chaos has no foothold in the north but is anywhere and consists of corrupted tribes and companies from every region of the world. The barbarian theme of the nomadic tribes is more associated with khorne than with chaos as a whole. Beastmen and demons are likely part of their faction because they are described in the same chapter (both in the fluff and unit cards), but demons can be summoned by everyone, so I don’t know for sure. And beastmen have very few pictures, so that’s a bad omen.

Waaghkins: orcs, goblins and are the servants of the old gods and live in a strict caste system, orcs are the manual laborers. There is a new race called nigmos: a tall and slender priest caste. Waaghkins travel the undersea, a system of flooded caverns that connects the whole world, on longboats and do the dirty work for the Exoatl. There is an artwork of the three different kinds of greenskins (no squigs and snotlings mentioned): an ork in very strange armour, very front heavy, textured like a symmetric turtle shell, he wields is an axe with multiple disc shape blades, goblin looked like a viking but has a futuristic looking handgun, the third was taller than a ork, female, slender - probably a nigmo. But in the photos of actual miniatures only show the old orc style. There is a subfaction of waaghkins that changed allegiance from the old gods to grimgor incarnate and are much more ferocious than their cousins.

undeads, deamons and spirits, and guardian hosts are used by every faction of the game, necromancy but not summoning is common in the dominion of Sigmar. The Inneadim are famous for their use of animated constructs. These things are not a big taboo in Regalia. However the most fearsome necromancers are (obviously) employed by the Empire of Nehekhara (which is not a desolate wasteland and has no egyptian vibe but is a rich and green country and feels more babylonian to me) and their death gods. But there is no Undead faction per se anymore. Vampires are called Necrarchs now.

Guardians hosts are troops that were granted by a god from another realm or the realm of the dead. They are living beings and have free will, but were brought to Regalia on the command of a deity.


- Lizardmen are not gone. There is a race called Servants of the Exoatl that guard the pole portals on flying pyramids, but no drawings and no fluff page (other races and tribess get at least half a page). They get unit cards for their old units (which confirms that they are simply lizardmen with a new name), but instead of beautiful pages with pictures like the rest of the bunch they get a simple list in the appendix of the compendium book.

Beastmen get the same lowkey treatment, but ogres get pictures and all, but I cannot say with which pantheon/faction they align. They are mortal, so you can use them in any the guardians of regalia army, but I don’t know if this is a stop gap solution or not.


Age of Sigmar box content:
Extrapolated from the pictures, they are the only new models. If you think you get 3-5 UNITS for each side, you are wrong. you get 10-15 (haven’t counted) CHARACTERS per side. Each model is really individual and it is in no way possible to field the majority of them as a visual coherent unit. It is late and this summary is long as it is, so I make this brief, but I will come back later and add some info on the miniatures. Chaos looks very similar to the old style except the berserkers, the Sigmarite Force is completely different.

Missionary Force:
3 Knights of the Order of Sigmars Blood, Roman looking armour but more bulky, leather Bands, swords and teardrop-shaped shields, champion is a woman
a pair of vigilantes: Male and female, leathercloaked, tricorn, 2 hand-crossbows
a hand full of heavy armoured warrior with different weapons and cloaks, almost knightly in appearance but completely over the top bulky, some have eagleshaped helmets
One hooded, chainmail wearing, hammer wielding girl
a bulldog
standard bearer: naked, chains that are hooked into the flesh, very archaic looking
one arabic looking guy with a two-handed scimitar and full armour
one guy in rags that wields a chain that burns at both ends, very impractical looking

Chaos Cult:
two outriders, basically chaos barbarians as we know them, but female
~5 berserkers: african looking, no armour, barefeet, clad in cloth stripes, two axes, bald and gaunt looking, not overly muscular, bone chain, both male and female
three pristesses: flowing robes, sacrifical ziggzagged daggers, skullmasks
two armoured harpies with spears and shields, crooked looking, feathered wings
at least five chaos warriors similar in appearance to the old chaos warriors, very dynamic fur cloaks and poses, one of them bigger on a larger base, all male as far as I could see
one large bloodletter, almost twice the size of a human
the leader has armour that looks like a chaos dwarfish, very babylonic, rides a demonwolf, a juggernaut, but with flesh and fur and spikes
some more viking-like infantry but with more chainmail
That’s only a broad description. Every model is highly individual.

Sorry for the chaotic nature of the info, I spent the evening writing this in a very fast manner. This is only the tip of the iceberg and I will come back with a little bit more soon - hopefully in a more ordered fashion. If you have a questions or need specifics and a topic, feel free to ask, maybe I remember something of use.

[Mr Mystery]

Cor blimey!

Get the programme big man, were already discussing!

[40kGamer]

Isn't Ynnead an Eldar god or something like that?

Eldar god of the dead in 40k I think.

[Erik Setzer]

One other thing that's bugging me....the name of the Elven Gods....doesn't sound especially Elven as we know it, and the Elves have a cyclical mythology.....

More I think about it, the more I think it's either misremembered or sillyfungames.

Well, it's quite possible that their gods were killed off for good, especially as some of them are based on real mythology, and if you're going hardcore in trying to make sure everything is something you can copyright or trademark, you might as well do the same with the names of the gods.

Doesn't mean it's true, just possible.

[Mr Mystery]

True, I dunno. The whole thing just isn't sitting right in my head.

Could be language barrier, but I dunno, doesn't seem 'off' enough, as most of the English is good.

[Latro_]

Sounds like whoever rehashed the fluff was a big fan of the Skyrim and the elder scrolls series.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Sounds fun! At this stage I tend to believe this is accurate. Under three weeks out, yeah, I buy someone having spent time enough with the book to produce a trove of information like this. It does also tally with older rumours quite nicely if one accepts that stuff was getting lost in translation a while ago - "bubblehammer" seems to be the vulgar way of processing "multiple dimensions with passage and conflict between them", for instance.

And yes, finally... I buy the all-round bases, with provision for "legacy models".

The pantheons and so on sound much more like the sort of thing one sees in an RPG sourcebook. If true, could be very cool, and certainly it should be the style they should aim at. Honestly, they have me at "the Triumvi-rat".

Oh, and...

Please, please, Sauron, Dagon, all the other nasty little dark gods, please let that miniatures breakdown be accurate! Chaos priestesses! Harpies! Berzerkers! Lady knights!? Be still, my heart!

Settin' myself up for a hell of a disappointment, I know... :P But until it all comes crashing down, I'm excited.

[eldargal]

Remaining sceptical, but more women!

[Mr Mystery]

Oddly, that's another reason I'm suspicious.

Not so much more women, but suddenly more wimmin in something of a departure from their typical range.

Would be pleasing if it's true, but y'know....don't hold your breath.

[grimmas]

Hmmm sounds more and more like LoTR / WoTR it even has the same misuse of the word Strategy in the name. I like it, it worked when they did it properly the first time (they messed up the hobbit).

More Ladies? Entirely possible. For Knights it wouldn't even mean different models (men and women in full armour look the same especially at 28mm) and I've always found more female wargamers interested in fantasy settings, so it seems to make sense, I know it's anecdotal but that is what I've experienced.

[Mr Mystery]

WotR certainly is a mighty fine game, and poses far more tactical challenges than first impressions might suggest.

But would they do that to Warhammer? I'm not sure they would, but I'm not exactly basing that on anything.

To go back to the original post, I'm more inclined to go with Mikhail's info, as he has named his source as a GW Rep, where as the poster of the big deposit hasn't said where they got their mitts on the books.

Not unusual like, but they're also (so far as I'm aware) a new rumour monger out of the woodwork...

[eldargal]

Oddly, that's another reason I'm suspicious.

Not so much more women, but suddenly more wimmin in something of a departure from their typical range.

Would be pleasing if it's true, but y'know....don't hold your breath.

Yup, as much as I would love to think they have decided to start with a more diverse approach with gender in particular it seems too good to be true.

[Erik Setzer]

WotR certainly is a mighty fine game, and poses far more tactical challenges than first impressions might suggest.

But would they do that to Warhammer? I'm not sure they would, but I'm not exactly basing that on anything.

To go back to the original post, I'm more inclined to go with Mikhail's info, as he has named his source as a GW Rep, where as the poster of the big deposit hasn't said where they got their mitts on the books.

Not unusual like, but they're also (so far as I'm aware) a new rumour monger out of the woodwork...

Well, someone did point out on the Dakka Dakka forums that Mikhail hasn't always been 100% (and also, GW sales reps don't tend to give out much info, even if they have it). And a post on the BoLS front page shows how one of the other rumor mongers is saying a lot of this fits what he'd heard.

No idea. We could be looking at something that is excessively new, and yet we have no idea, just three weeks out from release.

[grimmas]

The most recent rumour Bigred posted does seem a little off it just doesn't seem to be writen by a wargamer more by someone who knows a bit about it but doesn't really do it, it could be a language thing but it could be a troll who knows a bit about WFB and is having their fun.

If they do change the Human factions to a total fantasy affair rather than the quasi-historical previous style it would bode well for the inclusion of more females, like we've seen with the elves. I would brace yourself for leather/chain mail bikini top wearing female chaos marauders though.

[flipchuck]

Reboot my ***. Looks like 9th is a whole new game altogether. New world, new names, new rules complete with new stats...new models...looks like we might need to or expected to switch to brand new models. (Roman looking knights pfft)

[Path Walker]

Reboot my ***. Looks like 9th is a whole new game altogether. New world, new names, new rules complete with new stats...new models...looks like we might need to or expected to switch to brand new models. (Roman looking knights pfft)

What about that isn't a reboot?

[odinsgrandson]

Isn't Ynnead an Eldar god or something like that?

The gods of 40k and WFB have always been the same, and not just the Chaos ones. The Eldar Bloody Handed God Khaine has been worshiped by the Dark Eldar for a long time.



The most recent rumour Bigred posted does seem a little off it just doesn't seem to be writen by a wargamer more by someone who knows a bit about it but doesn't really do it, it could be a language thing but it could be a troll who knows a bit about WFB and is having their fun.


A lot of what I've seen here is actually pretty plausible, even if it is on the far end of that, and the language used doesn't seem off to me.

But some things look a little far fetched (even in this rumor thread):

- If Pantheons are so important, why don't we have rules for most of them, and especially why don't we have rules for the Sigmar pantheon.

- Opposed Rolling isn't really the GW way of doing things, and it is surprising to see them alter the names of so many of their stats (Melee, Ranged etc, instead of WS and BS). Also, lower stats being good isn't really a GW thing either- although it is pretty unnecessary as they tend to simply create a chart that converts the large numbers into small numbers (BS 5=2+ to hit, for example).


However, I lived through the move from 2nd to 3rd ed 40k, and so I'm skeptical of anyone dismissing far fetched GW rumours.

Ultimately, this very different game might represent GW 'listening' to all of the criticism that their game system is way out of date, and creating something very new and different. Maybe they aren't going to be so set in their ways in the future.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"If Pantheons are so important, why don't we have rules for most of them, and especially why don't we have rules for the Sigmar pantheon."

Possibly because that's what future books are going to be, breaking out of the "Army Book" cycle and into a new way of doing things.

It's all just a rumour, I know. But personally, it's an exciting rumour.

"looks like we might need to or expected to switch to brand new models."

That is explicitly not what the rumour says. Look at the part about "legacy models" and bases. I fully anticipate being able to use almost everything in the existing Warhammer range. What they'd like is for you to buy the new things they're bringing out going forward - by making them new, fresh and interesting rather than just "plastic versions of old kits" - rather than junking all your Warhammer models immediately, which would be a crazy response.

[Wildeybeast]

'Being able to use them' could mean many things. It could mean 'a seamelss transition that requires little to no change to my current model collection' to 'those square bases are pretty clunky to use, you only need 4 of those 40 black orcs you have and you might as well burn all those movement trays'. I am greatly concerned that it will be the latter based on these new rumours.

Here's what I don't get. If they wanted to do a new game with new model ranges and armies, then why not just do that and keep Warhammer going? Why risk alienating your existing player base wit such radical changes? I really hope these rumours aren't true.

[Mr Mystery]

Just another reason they're quite possibly mince.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'd suggest that if they're doing something this drastic then the existing playerbase wasn't large enough or buying enough stuff to make continuing with the status quo a viable business option. Which is really sad, but if that's the case, then you can't do nothing.

But yeah, these are rumours, and while I'm inclined to believe a lot of it, we don't have the full story until the book's in our hands.

I reckon there'll be some kind of provision for continuity-8th edition, in the form of the End Times. I expect that isn't going away, especially if we're doing dimension-hopping now.

[grimmas]

May be they thought the existing player base was part of the problem? After all it is the existing players who tend to be pushing the "I absolutely will not play a game under 3000pts" which is one of the things keeping new people out due to the massive investment in time and money this needs. We know that GW has always viewed veterans at best as a 2 edged sword. They might have thought buggerit we've broken them lets get new. They've certainly done it before. Sure crusty old fanboys like me will stick around but the wavering ones will be swept away leaving a vacuum for new kids coming through without them being put off if by shall we say less helpful existing players. Add in some new trademark tight IP and they might be on to something?

[Path Walker]

May be they thought the existing player base was part of the problem? After all it is the existing players who tend to be pushing the "I absolutely will not play a game under 3000pts" which is one of the things keeping new people out due to the massive investment in time and money this needs. We know that GW has always viewed veterans at best as a 2 edged sword. They might have thought buggerit we've broken them lets get new. They've certainly done it before. Sure crusty old fanboys like me will stick around but the wavering ones will be swept away leaving a vacuum for new kids coming through without them being put off if by shall we say less helpful existing players. Add in some new trademark tight IP and they might be on to something?

Possibly, veterans actually make pretty ****ty customers, they mostly have their army, very few will buy more regularly, a new army book and a unit or two every few years maybe. Hobbyists and kids are the markets you want, kids who are starting out will spend and spend, birthdays and Christmases, pocket money, all towards the hobby and hobbyists are morons who buy more stuff than they ever need.

There is literally no sense in the business catering to those with established armies.

[Erik Setzer]

After all it is the existing players who tend to be pushing the "I absolutely will not play a game under 3000pts" which is one of the things keeping new people out due to the massive investment in time and money this needs.

Well, actually, it has a lot to do with GW nixing Skirmish and Warbands, and the balance of the game at lower levels gets very wonky without something like those rules sets in place. Players play the size of game that actually works in WFB. GW wanted large battles, they got that.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't think at any stage it'll have been an antipathy towards the existing playerbase - I mean, most of GW have also been playing Warhammer since they were in short trousers, right? They don't hate the grognards, they are the grognards - but the exigencies of doing business. If not enough money's coming in and the normal options of "here's a new army book and some new models" aren't working, and it's a choice between a drastic rethink and letting it die, then the drastic rethink is better for the veterans than it ending altogether. But something has to give, if the numbers aren't looking good to the people who make those decisions (rightly or wrongly).

I'd love some kind of insider perspective on the thought process - I mean, like a movie, what I'd really like is some kind of "making of" book or documentary for both the End Times and the new Warhammer, to explain the thought process, design stages etc. but ha ha ha that will never ever happen. So we're left to just guess.

"I would brace yourself for leather/chain mail bikini top wearing female chaos marauders though."

If they're as hench as hell and not in sexualized poses (ie. they're not in cheesecake chest-thrust-butt-out positions but instead running at you with axes whirling, perhaps with wild hair, scarification and a few handy mutations - you know, the Chaos aesthetic) that might be just fine!

[40kGamer]

'Being able to use them' could mean many things. It could mean 'a seamelss transition that requires little to no change to my current model collection' to 'those square bases are pretty clunky to use, you only need 4 of those 40 black orcs you have and you might as well burn all those movement trays'. I am greatly concerned that it will be the latter based on these new rumours.

Here's what I don't get. If they wanted to do a new game with new model ranges and armies, then why not just do that and keep Warhammer going? Why risk alienating your existing player base wit such radical changes? I really hope these rumours aren't true.

Maybe this is a new game and WFB 9th is coming later... who would know given the informational black hole that GW has created.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't think at any stage it'll have been an antipathy towards the existing playerbase - I mean, most of GW have also been playing Warhammer since they were in short trousers, right? They don't hate the grognards, they are the grognards - but the exigencies of doing business. If not enough money's coming in and the normal options of "here's a new army book and some new models" aren't working, and it's a choice between a drastic rethink and letting it die, then the drastic rethink is better for the veterans than it ending altogether. But something has to give, if the numbers aren't looking good to the people who make those decisions (rightly or wrongly).

I'd love some kind of insider perspective on the thought process - I mean, like a movie, what I'd really like is some kind of "making of" book or documentary for both the End Times and the new Warhammer, to explain the thought process, design stages etc. but ha ha ha that will never ever happen. So we're left to just guess.

"I would brace yourself for leather/chain mail bikini top wearing female chaos marauders though."

If they're as hench as hell and not in sexualized poses (ie. they're not in cheesecake chest-thrust-butt-out positions but instead running at you with axes whirling, perhaps with wild hair, scarification and a few handy mutations - you know, the Chaos aesthetic) that might be just fine!

Depends on the sales, which no matter what TEH interwebs sez, only GW actually know.

I'm still expecting a dual tiered system. One to offer skirmish scale, the other the scale which is tried and trusted.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Or a system which scales well for either, perhaps. Anyway, not long to wait now. I'm buzzin'.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Though was reminded last night I've got the London Film and Comic Con on 18th July....so gonna have to keep some cash behind!

[son_of_volmer]

The prospect of more female based models is exciting, but even more interesting is the prospect that models will represent more real world ethnicities. Warhammer Fantasy seems a perfect setting to expand to include models inspired by different cultures. The game can draw a more diverse audience if more different kinds of people can see themselves represented in the models.

The idea of mixing any and all factions is interesting, and it suits GW’s policy of:
1) introducing something (Unbound)
2) it being rejected
3) then forcing it down our throats
4) [profits]

[Erik Setzer]

I mean, most of GW have also been playing Warhammer since they were in short trousers, right? They don't hate the grognards, they are the grognards

I really doubt this. It *might* be true of their design team (or at least, they play Warhammer right now, no idea how long). But the guys making the business decisions, who tell the design team what direction to go? Nah, doubt they even touch the games.

[Mr Mystery]

You would be very surprised then.

[Erik Setzer]

You would be very surprised then.

You're right, the design team might actually be devoid of anyone who plays the games. It would definitely explain the lack of playtesting.

[Mr Mystery]

And I seriously though I was the one with the paranoid streak.....

[grimmas]

Mark Wells came to the Nottingham central store and played 40K on more than one occasion, I was there. Everyone seems to forget that Tom Kirby has been with the company since the mid 80s and all the "good ol days" stuff he was actually the one in charge when it was all happening, I suspect he knows more about the wargames industry than any other person. Don't forget he was in a managerial role at TSR before that. Also if you worked in wargames in the 80s you were a wargamer that's how it was.

Of course this has nothing to do with warhammer rumours but I'd take a bet that it'll be a two teir system with Age of Sigmar and another battle size game there's no way GW, who view themselves as a minature manufacturer are going to limit their sales opotunities by only having a skirmish game. Age of Signar will be the gate way drug to the real plastic crack addiction.

[Mr Mystery]

there's no way GW, who view themselves as a minature manufacturer are going to limit their sales opotunities by only having a skirmish game

This bit in particular.

Commonly accepted wisdom is that for Warhams to thrive again, the opening model count needs to come down somewhat. Age of Sigmar is expected to do this in some fashion.

But you wouldn't remove one barrier and just replace it with another.....especially when the game we currently play can handle pretty much any points size going upwards (units just get larger for the most part).

[grimmas]

This bit in particular.

Commonly accepted wisdom is that for Warhams to thrive again, the opening model count needs to come down somewhat. Age of Sigmar is expected to do this in some fashion.

But you wouldn't remove one barrier and just replace it with another.....especially when the game we currently play can handle pretty much any points size going upwards (units just get larger for the most part).

Very much so I suspect having more simplified rules in the smaller scale game will help get people involved more easily especially for the younger customers and their goldfish esque attention spans. And then when they're proper hooked there's something else to move on to.

[Mr Mystery]

I've always found kids take to Warhammer really well - it's just that they see me rocking my 3,000 points of Ogrey goodness, and that the army is just a slice of a much larger collection, and feel that's how the game is meant to be played.

Just scale it back a bit so you can get a decent game in with the rulebook and a Batallion, and you're about golden I'd say.

General and completely arbitrary litmus test? Can someone assemble a decent sized army from the average Birthday/Christmas per-child spend? (according to Das Daily Fail, £132 in 2012, but I wouldn't actually trust anything that paper says, even if as in this case they've not managed to link it to immigration). You don't want them to get the complete experience for that as you know, you want to rope them in for longer - but you don't want them to feel like they're missing out without spending more. If that makes sense.

[Erik Setzer]

But you wouldn't remove one barrier and just replace it with another.....especially when the game we currently play can handle pretty much any points size going upwards (units just get larger for the most part).

But why is that a barrier?

The rumors seem to suggest that you can basically buy whatever you want and plop it on the table with whatever else you want, making an army out of just about any models you have.

So, okay, maybe a few people stop with a small collection. But how many other people will see the latest new thing and think, "Ooo, I want to have that in my collection!" And it's not a big expense, maybe $30 (or a $50 unit), so they add it to their collection. And they keep growing the collection, so they have more options to choose from in order to play games.

Warmachine gets by well enough with smaller forces. But this is like taking Warmachine and throwing in a bit of X-Wing's system. X-Wing (and Armada) work as money-makers because people add to their collection to have variety. There's only three forces in X-Wing (they recently added Scum & Villainy, which makes me ecstatic), and games are 100 points. So you'd think people collect just 100 points? Oh heck no. I just got a bit of basic stuff for my S&V squadron and had more than 200 points, and still want more. Other people have massive collections. And having options increases sales further. You could play a Slave 1 ship as the other two pilots' ships, but people prefer to repaint them, and so they might have three Firesprays, one painted for each pilot. They think to themselves, "This is only $30, I can get another one down the line."

So apply that same idea to AoS. You have roughly two core forces, with freedom to throw in whatever you want in both. And we'll do a theoretical first wave, for each side: 2 characters with three options each ($30 each), 1 basic small infantry infantry unit with options ($40), 1 basic large infantry unit with options ($50), one larger kit ($50). People grab one of each. Then they grab multiples of some, to make the options. The next month, there's another character with options, and another unit kit. They think, "Hey, this isn't bad, and I can use one of these. I'll get that." And on and on it goes.

You don't need massed armies to sell a lot of models. You just have to make the new models interesting - not OP, just interesting - and keep them in a steady, reasonable price range. Even with GW's currently inflated prices, people will accept it in small increments, where a new month's releases might see them spend $80 that month, whereas before they might have to spend $200. Over a year they'll probably spend more, but in their minds it's "cheaper."

Now, Games Workshop might be limited in its imagination, and not see how much potential that sales method has (if they don't screw it up with "limited run" stuff, which will turn people off fast), but it does have plenty of potential to make money.

Toss in rules for mega-battles later, once collections have built up. Give it maybe a year. Or six months, if they feel super-confident about sales of the first wave. Then you're giving people the option to go big, but not really pushing it as a core of the system. They'll naturally want to try those rules when their collections grow. And they *will* grow.

[grimmas]

I've always found kids take to Warhammer really well - it's just that they see me rocking my 3,000 points of Ogrey goodness, and that the army is just a slice of a much larger collection, and feel that's how the game is meant to be played.

Just scale it back a bit so you can get a decent game in with the rulebook and a Batallion, and you're about golden I'd say.

General and completely arbitrary litmus test? Can someone assemble a decent sized army from the average Birthday/Christmas per-child spend? (according to Das Daily Fail, £132 in 2012, but I wouldn't actually trust anything that paper says, even if as in this case they've not managed to link it to immigration). You don't want them to get the complete experience for that as you know, you want to rope them in for longer - but you don't want them to feel like they're missing out without spending more. If that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense, but we have both worked for GW so we might have more context or of course drunk too much of the cool-aid 😳

[odinsgrandson]

- Thanks, Erik Setzer. It seems we too often feel that having massive armies is the only way that GW could possibly sell enough minis with a smaller model count game.

Overall, I think GW needs to be looking into roping in people with less expensive starting points for their games, and Warhammer Fantasty Battle has long been the biggest trouble for that.


It looks like they're breaking away from the business model where a gamer spends a long time tailoring and fine tuning his force, and more towards one where he picks what he wants to bring before each game. I wonder if the game's rules will reflect this (in other games, the point values are much smaller when they want different units to be interchangeable, but GW has other ways to accomplish this).



- One thing that makes me hopeful that these rumors are true is the idea that the game mechanics deal with Champions and what it means to be a champion of a god. That's unique to the Warhammer setting, and could create some interesting gameplay.

The WFB mechanics were designed to be generic (and work just fine in Warhammer Historicals) and I'm hoping that they've found a way to make their mechanics reflect the unique things about their setting, rather than simply having the same mechanics that could work with any setting.

I suppose there's nothing to do but wait and see.

[grimmas]

Trouble is Erik X-wings sales are far far lower than what GW needs for WFB, FFG had a revenue of €40M last year for ALL their games, GW had over £100m that's about €100m more. Their sales model isn't producing enough money for there to be any evidence it's worthwhile for GW. The surveys I've seen show Warmachine as having less sales than x-wing so the same covers them but more so.

[Mr Mystery]

Barrier to upper game size - why would you impose that on a game which scales nicely upwards?

You wouldn't. There's no point.

[40kGamer]

Trouble is Erik X-wings sales are far far lower than what GW needs for WFB, FFG had a revenue of €40M last year for ALL their games, GW had over £100m that's about €100m more. Their sales model isn't producing enough money for there to be any evidence it's worthwhile for GW. The surveys I've seen show Warmachine as having less sales than x-wing so the same covers them but more so.

Can you link to their annual report? I looked over the Asmodee financials but couldn't be sure what was coming from FFG.

[Erik Setzer]

Trouble is Erik X-wings sales are far far lower than what GW needs for WFB, FFG had a revenue of €40M last year for ALL their games, GW had over £100m that's about €100m more. Their sales model isn't producing enough money for there to be any evidence it's worthwhile for GW. The surveys I've seen show Warmachine as having less sales than x-wing so the same covers them but more so.

I'd like to see where your info is from. And please don't use "surveys," those are notoriously inaccurate.

I didn't say to copy X-Wing's system exactly. Each Wave of X-Wing is at least 3-4 months apart, and only includes a handful of releases. They have to work on figuring out what they can release, how it looks, make sure it's okay with Disney, all kinds of stuff like that. Also, X-Wing has $10-$15 models across most of its range. There's pretty much no single-model releases from Games Workshop in that price range these days.

Games Workshop has the ability to produce more, faster. They're dedicated to two model ranges, that's it. They don't have to worry about licensing. They can release as they want to, and have shown they can maintain an insane pace of releases. They have a wide variety of potential sources to draw from for new units. They could out-produce X-Wing easily, and they charge more for their models.

Further, there's no way to tell how much of GW's revenues is made from Warhammer. It's got to be pretty low given that they literally blew up the world and are willing to chuck out 30 years of a game's story and gameplay to go in a wildly new direction, which is nothing short of an extreme Hail Mary to revitalize the line. So your attempts to make comparisons of sales doesn't work terribly well, on many levels.

[Mr Mystery]

Flaw with X-Wing is I'll buy two of everything on release......then bugger all until the next release.

Not what one would call a particularly stable cash flow - and I'm a Star Wars Nut who buys the ships 10% to play the game, 90% BECAUSE STAR WARS!.

Reminds me, I must post another collection gallery.

[grimmas]

Can you link to their annual report? I looked over the Asmodee financials but couldn't be sure what was coming from FFG.

They posted the Asmodee, potential investor information thingy on the front page it gave the FFG revenue as €40m

[grimmas]

I'd like to see where your info is from. And please don't use "surveys," those are notoriously inaccurate.

I didn't say to copy X-Wing's system exactly. Each Wave of X-Wing is at least 3-4 months apart, and only includes a handful of releases. They have to work on figuring out what they can release, how it looks, make sure it's okay with Disney, all kinds of stuff like that. Also, X-Wing has $10-$15 models across most of its range. There's pretty much no single-model releases from Games Workshop in that price range these days.

Games Workshop has the ability to produce more, faster. They're dedicated to two model ranges, that's it. They don't have to worry about licensing. They can release as they want to, and have shown they can maintain an insane pace of releases. They have a wide variety of potential sources to draw from for new units. They could out-produce X-Wing easily, and they charge more for their models.

Further, there's no way to tell how much of GW's revenues is made from Warhammer. It's got to be pretty low given that they literally blew up the world and are willing to chuck out 30 years of a game's story and gameplay to go in a wildly new direction, which is nothing short of an extreme Hail Mary to revitalize the line. So your attempts to make comparisons of sales doesn't work terribly well, on many levels.

You go to the front page Erik they've posted links to all the info I've mentioned you should be well aware of it all already.

You might not like surveys but they are pretty much all we have to go in and do provide some context.

The fact remains FFG doesn't make enough money through their business practices, and getting bought out doesn't seem to suggest they were doing amazingly great.

You might not like my comparisons but you are failing to show any evidence that copying poorer performing companies' practices will produce better returns for GW.

Apologies FFG revenue was $40.6m which is actually less than €40

[Erik Setzer]

The fact remains FFG doesn't make enough money through their business practices, and getting bought out doesn't seem to suggest they were doing amazingly great.

You might not like my comparisons but you are failing to show any evidence that copying poorer performing companies' practices will produce better returns for GW.

FFG makes enough money for what they want to do, and them being bought doesn't suggest they were doing poorly, considering the review from the company that bought them talks up what they added to that company's revenue. You don't have to make masses of money to be doing well. FFG turned a profit. And you don't have to be in bad shape to be bought by another company. The company I work for was bought by another company and it's expanding. They saw a good investment and decided to grab it.

No one said they should copy SMALLER - not "poorer performing"* - companies' practices. Just that a business model with a similar concept, using GW's own take on it, would work well. Look at Mystery's comment about buying two of everything with X-Wing. Now consider increased prices on the products and a larger selection of products coming out more often. If GW did AoS the way I described, I'd likely spend more on it than X-Wing, and I am a huge Star Wars fanatic. So yeah, there's no comparison there.

*Oh, and since you seem to have forgotten this, Games Workshop's revenues are DOWN. Their profit dropped last year, despite them cutting as much as they could, releasing a new edition of their flagship game (meaning a lot of their customer base had to buy an $85 book), a lot of new expensive kits, the initial surge of End Times (before they managed to even kill the enthusiasm for that idea), two campaigns for 40K, and moving White Dwarf from a $10 a month magazine to a $16-$20 a month weekly magazine and a $12 a month magazine (Visions). Everything they did last year should have brought in higher revenues, but instead it dropped. So perhaps claiming others aren't performing as well just because they aren't looking to get massive overnight is a bad idea.

Do you want to back up and try again?

Or, heck, read my original post and recognize that nowhere did I say Games Workshop should make AoS an X-Wing clone?

Or are you just here to take shots at other games?

[grimmas]

FFG makes enough money for what they want to do, and them being bought doesn't suggest they were doing poorly, considering the review from the company that bought them talks up what they added to that company's revenue. You don't have to make masses of money to be doing well. FFG turned a profit. And you don't have to be in bad shape to be bought by another company. The company I work for was bought by another company and it's expanding. They saw a good investment and decided to grab it.

No one said they should copy SMALLER - not "poorer performing"* - companies' practices. Just that a business model with a similar concept, using GW's own take on it, would work well. Look at Mystery's comment about buying two of everything with X-Wing. Now consider increased prices on the products and a larger selection of products coming out more often. If GW did AoS the way I described, I'd likely spend more on it than X-Wing, and I am a huge Star Wars fanatic. So yeah, there's no comparison there.

*Oh, and since you seem to have forgotten this, Games Workshop's revenues are DOWN. Their profit dropped last year, despite them cutting as much as they could, releasing a new edition of their flagship game (meaning a lot of their customer base had to buy an $85 book), a lot of new expensive kits, the initial surge of End Times (before they managed to even kill the enthusiasm for that idea), two campaigns for 40K, and moving White Dwarf from a $10 a month magazine to a $16-$20 a month weekly magazine and a $12 a month magazine (Visions). Everything they did last year should have brought in higher revenues, but instead it dropped. So perhaps claiming others aren't performing as well just because they aren't looking to get massive overnight is a bad idea.

Do you want to back up and try again?

Or, heck, read my original post and recognize that nowhere did I say Games Workshop should make AoS an X-Wing clone?

Or are you just here to take shots at other games?

You did say they should use similar business models though and have yet again failed to provide any evidence for this. It your not saying this what point was there mentioning them at all.

How am I taking shots at other games? I didn't post any opinion about them at all I pointed out by their own admission those company sell less product.

Why would any sane person use a business model that has proven time and time again not to produce as much income, that's not how you make more money.

It blatantly obvious what's happening WFB one of their 2 products isn't making as much money, which is why they are rebooting it, if it was they wouldn't be doing it. Why in the hell would they choose to do that in a way
That has been proven to restrict growth (sonething that should be obvious to you if you know anything about the wargame industry over the last 30yrs as you claim)

I suggest you back up and come up with something that isnt just a rehash of the usual internet drivel and "I'd buy more" doesn't mean anything unless that "more" is £50M or so on current figures

Oh and I'm willing to be proved wrong but you don't seem to be willing to provide any or even actually make a point that you're willing to stick to.

[40kGamer]

They posted the Asmodee, potential investor information thingy on the front page it gave the FFG revenue as €40m

Missed that one! Thanks mate. I think Asmodee in total is a better comparison to GW proper... FFG is more like the Forgeworld or Black Library divisions.

I understand GW has tried to extract extra margins from only having two product lines but I miss the variety of games they used to support. I'm really hoping for some extra offerings to come out of this fantasy reboot. Rehashing the same product line over and over again is tedious.

[Erik Setzer]

I made a point and have stuck with it.

X-Wing has three core factions, they release waves of models, people buy those models, even if they already have plenty enough to play the game. Every wave has something people can use, because of how open the game is.

AoS apparently has two core factions, that can use just about anything. GW can release quicker "waves" of models (albeit broken up into weekly releases), which pretty much anyone will be able to use because of the "unbound" style of building forces. People would see these new releases they can use, think, "oh, it's only $80 for the stuff I want, that's not bad, and it'll give me more flexibility," and they'll buy it. And the next month they'd buy something. And so on. So even as the forces are small, releasing waves of models usable by a large portion of the players repeatedly will lead to people making more and more purchases, and eventually having the large armies.

People will spend as much as they would have on a large army, but because it's spread out over time, they won't realize it and be hit with "sticker shock." It also leaves room for expansion even beyond that point.

The model would work, especially with GW demonstrating the ability to rapidly release new stuff.

Your arguments against it are "Time and again, that's been proven not to work!" which is funny, because you're in favor of them repeating the exact same business model that just failed so hard they literally blew up the world and are remaking the game in a manner that has no relation to what existed before. And you can't really prove it doesn't work. What's not supposed to work? The idea of smaller forces? Hmm, funny, there are games succeeding with that. And they aren't going with the route of "you can use whatever we release, you don't have to skip a month's releases because it doesn't have something for your army."

What's "limiting" about the idea I outlined? People can use whatever they want. Oh, you think they'd stop once they have the points needed to play a game? If so, please stop talking now, until you've been in this hobby more than two days. I can't think of a single player who only owns as much of an army as is needed to play a game, they always get extra stuff. The more availability of extra stuff, the more they'd get (this is also why so many people have multiple forces for games). Just for GW games alone, even Specialist Games, my collections for each army, warband, fleet, or whatever well outnumber the top points value of a game. Earlier in the year I wrapped up painting 7000 points of Undead so I'd have variety for a 3000 point game, and am almost certainly going to add to that collection. I already had a Skaven army, but they released new Skaven models, and I bought them, including a new Verminlord despite no one really having a problem with me using my existing Verminlord. How do you think any of the End Times stuff sold, when it was all additions to existing armies? Because people buy more than they need!

I even threw in the idea of releasing rules for larger battles later, after people had started building a collection, so they had time to get hooked before thinking they had to buy large forces. So large games would be a possibility.

So, yeah, show me where the "limiting" factor is?

Or just admit you were wrong.

(My bet is on you finding some way to talk in circles and not answer the question or add anything useful.)

- - - Updated - - -


I understand GW has tried to extract extra margins from only having two product lines but I miss the variety of games they used to support. I'm really hoping for some extra offerings to come out of this fantasy reboot. Rehashing the same product line over and over again is tedious.

After some people started comparing these rumors of AoS to various games - I went with Heroes of the Storm, a local GW manager actually went with League of Legends and Warcraft 3 - I think it'd be a really neat idea if they did a third game that wouldn't even need much of any new miniatures: An "arena world" or whatever where various heroes and their retinues get pulled through the Warp and deposited to fight each other, allowing some kind of crossover battles between Warhammer and 40K forces. Something like "Warhammer Champions."

Hey, Herohammer in an arena style would be kind of fun...

I'd be shocked if there aren't discussions somewhere, at least on an exploratory level, of bringing back something like Battlefleet Gothic, given the emergence of multiple space battles games. If the Halo game does well, BFG should seriously be considered for bringing back. And heck, they could resurrect Warmaster, or at least a modified version of it, for people who want some kind of ranked Warhammer world battles, leaving the larger scale free to explore a different style of battle. (Yeah, it's not the same, but hey, it could scratch that itch for some folks).

[Mr Mystery]

Erik. It's time to address some fallacies in your argument. I'll try to keep it succinct.

1. GW's loss of sales was avoidable.

Says who? For a long time, GW were the only fish in the pond. Now, as their own success has carved out a market and helped to produce gamers keen on designing their own games, there is an inevitable diversification of what's on offer. As the saying goes, when you're on the top, there's only one way to go...

2. If someone takes up a new game, it's because they've dropped the other.

Yeah you're gonna need a lot of more-than-anecdotal evidence for that one. As more games come out, more people are tempted to try something new. Me, I plumped for X-Wing. But I still spend far more on GW stuff. In the past year, I've gone from owning no X-Wing stuff, to at least one of every ship thus far released. In the same time, I've bought 4 Imperial Knights, three HH books, all The End Times, a Mechanicus army, various (but not all) Codecies, Shield of Baal, a box of Stormfiends, The Glottkin, a Maggoth, two boxes of those big Nurqle guys, and few other odds and sods. The gamers I know have much the same story - diversified, not dropped.

3. Your experience is the base line.

Yeah.....just no. You treat your opinion as fact. Now your opinion is just as valid as the next persons, but it ain't fact by a long shot.

[40kGamer]

1. GW's loss of sales was avoidable.

Says who? For a long time, GW were the only fish in the pond. Now, as their own success has carved out a market and helped to produce gamers keen on designing their own games, there is an inevitable diversification of what's on offer. As the saying goes, when you're on the top, there's only one way to go...

Well, they’ve never really been the only fish in the pond as the market existed before GW. GW just did something innovative and carved out a place by offering a product that was more ‘fun’. So they fended off many contenders over the years by being arguably better. That has been the thing I’ve seen change over the last decade. The newest round of contenders are finding ways to appeal to people far more than their predecessors.


2. If someone takes up a new game, it's because they've dropped the other.
Yeah, this isn’t typically true. What is true is that people have a set $ for gaming so taking up other games means less total $ for the previous one.


3. Your experience is the base line.

Agree that there is no baseline. The market is pretty diverse and what works in one area fails miserably in another. You really can’t please all the people all the time.

Why does fantasy need a reboot? There are lots of possibilities but I’m thinking the following:
 There are not enough new people coming into the community to support the product.
 Long time players don’t necessarily buy many models.
 And my personal favorite – you can’t just keep rehashing the exact same thing into infinity. At some point the market gets fatigued, saturated and flat out disinterested.
I’m interested to see what they can offer. Maybe they’ll be an innovator again. It’s all part of the business life cycle.

[grimmas]

I made a point and have stuck with it.

X-Wing has three core factions, they release waves of models, people buy those models, even if they already have plenty enough to play the game. Every wave has something people can use, because of how open the game is.

AoS apparently has two core factions, that can use just about anything. GW can release quicker "waves" of models (albeit broken up into weekly releases), which pretty much anyone will be able to use because of the "unbound" style of building forces. People would see these new releases they can use, think, "oh, it's only $80 for the stuff I want, that's not bad, and it'll give me more flexibility," and they'll buy it. And the next month they'd buy something. And so on. So even as the forces are small, releasing waves of models usable by a large portion of the players repeatedly will lead to people making more and more purchases, and eventually having the large armies.

People will spend as much as they would have on a large army, but because it's spread out over time, they won't realize it and be hit with "sticker shock." It also leaves room for expansion even beyond that point.

The model would work, especially with GW demonstrating the ability to rapidly release new stuff.

Your arguments against it are "Time and again, that's been proven not to work!" which is funny, because you're in favor of them repeating the exact same business model that just failed so hard they literally blew up the world and are remaking the game in a manner that has no relation to what existed before. And you can't really prove it doesn't work. What's not supposed to work? The idea of smaller forces? Hmm, funny, there are games succeeding with that. And they aren't going with the route of "you can use whatever we release, you don't have to skip a month's releases because it doesn't have something for your army."

What's "limiting" about the idea I outlined? People can use whatever they want. Oh, you think they'd stop once they have the points needed to play a game? If so, please stop talking now, until you've been in this hobby more than two days. I can't think of a single player who only owns as much of an army as is needed to play a game, they always get extra stuff. The more availability of extra stuff, the more they'd get (this is also why so many people have multiple forces for games). Just for GW games alone, even Specialist Games, my collections for each army, warband, fleet, or whatever well outnumber the top points value of a game. Earlier in the year I wrapped up painting 7000 points of Undead so I'd have variety for a 3000 point game, and am almost certainly going to add to that collection. I already had a Skaven army, but they released new Skaven models, and I bought them, including a new Verminlord despite no one really having a problem with me using my existing Verminlord. How do you think any of the End Times stuff sold, when it was all additions to existing armies? Because people buy more than they need!

I even threw in the idea of releasing rules for larger battles later, after people had started building a collection, so they had time to get hooked before thinking they had to buy large forces. So large games would be a possibility.

So, yeah, show me where the "limiting" factor is?

Or just admit you were wrong.

(My bet is on you finding some way to talk in circles and not answer the question or add anything useful.)

- - - Updated - - -



After some people started comparing these rumors of AoS to various games - I went with Heroes of the Storm, a local GW manager actually went with League of Legends and Warcraft 3 - I think it'd be a really neat idea if they did a third game that wouldn't even need much of any new miniatures: An "arena world" or whatever where various heroes and their retinues get pulled through the Warp and deposited to fight each other, allowing some kind of crossover battles between Warhammer and 40K forces. Something like "Warhammer Champions."

Hey, Herohammer in an arena style would be kind of fun...

I'd be shocked if there aren't discussions somewhere, at least on an exploratory level, of bringing back something like Battlefleet Gothic, given the emergence of multiple space battles games. If the Halo game does well, BFG should seriously be considered for bringing back. And heck, they could resurrect Warmaster, or at least a modified version of it, for people who want some kind of ranked Warhammer world battles, leaving the larger scale free to explore a different style of battle. (Yeah, it's not the same, but hey, it could scratch that itch for some folks).

Disappointing Erik very disappointing,

I quite liked your reasoning behind having a IP change being motive for a big change, but this is just unsupported rubbish you've provided no evidence of any skirmish game making the same sales as a battle game. I was hoping you actually had something to say, you don't even seem to have read anything I've posted over the last few weeks which is slightly irritating because you wouldn't be make the claims you are if you had and much of it was in conversation with you.

Oh well never mind.

- - - Updated - - -


Well, they’ve never really been the only fish in the pond as the market existed before GW. GW just did something innovative and carved out a place by offering a product that was more ‘fun’. So they fended off many contenders over the years by being arguably better. That has been the thing I’ve seen change over the last decade. The newest round of contenders are finding ways to appeal to people far more than their predecessors.


Yeah, this isn’t typically true. What is true is that people have a set $ for gaming so taking up other games means less total $ for the previous one.



Agree that there is no baseline. The market is pretty diverse and what works in one area fails miserably in another. You really can’t please all the people all the time.

Why does fantasy need a reboot? There are lots of possibilities but I’m thinking the following:
 There are not enough new people coming into the community to support the product.
 Long time players don’t necessarily buy many models.
 And my personal favorite – you can’t just keep rehashing the exact same thing into infinity. At some point the market gets fatigues, saturated and flat out disinterested.
I’m interested to see what they can offer. Maybe they’ll be an innovator again. It’s all part of the business life cycle.

Seems reasonable

[Erik Setzer]

Erik. It's time to address some fallacies in your argument. I'll try to keep it succinct.

I'll correct your own fallacies here.



1. GW's loss of sales was avoidable.

Never said that, just noted they dropped in revenues at a time they released a lot of stuff that should have driven up revenues, and pointed that out merely to say that calling growing companies "poor-performing" in comparison to a company that saw a loss of sales was just silly.



2. If someone takes up a new game, it's because they've dropped the other.

Never said this. Actually, I'm pretty sure I said quite the opposite. And I know I've never felt this, and wouldn't outright say it, because right now I have 40K, WFB, Warmachine, X-Wing, Armada, am getting into Bolt Action, and considering Malifaux or Infinity.



3. Your experience is the base line.

Never said this either. I use myself at times as *one* example, not a base line.


So, are you just making up what you think I'm saying? Or am I just using so many words it's actually harder for people to comprehend what I'm saying, thus defeating the whole purpose of trying to be comprehensive in my statements? You were 0-for-3 there, and so wrong on them that I can't help but be offended.

- - - Updated - - -


you've provided no evidence of any skirmish game making the same sales as a battle game.

Because none of them have really tried what I was suggesting.

Think about Magic: The Gathering. You only need 60 cards to play, you can actually play with just a quick-start deck. But that game keeps going strong and brings in so much money and has events paying cash running weekly. How? Because it keeps on releasing new stuff people want to add to their collection. You can easily play Modern or even Standard (at least for a while) with the same cards, and even be able to compete with other players. But people still buy the newest cards because they're excited with what's new.

GW can do something similar for AoS.

Seriously, man, I'm trying to be positive here and get excited about something GW, am I not allowed to be optimistic either? I can't be cautious, I can't be optimistic? Are only certain people allowed to post thoughts?

[Path Walker]

Heard some interesting talk today, plastic heresy by christmas to replace LotR and Age of Sigmar will have rules for all units in the book, new units will have rules in the box and campaign books like the end times. Nothing on the mechanics of the game or anything though, as GW haven't told anyone outside of HQ.

Also, X Wing, tiny comparative sales and its a young game with a popular IP. They're already running out of steam with new releases, they had to release a different scale game to keep people buying for now, they'll soon run out of ships and then what? Rerelease old ships with new rules?

They're already showing the Pay to Win mentality that people are slagging off GW for, look at the cards that make the TIE Advance playable, you have to buy a massive ship just to make the units you already bought work in the game.

[40kGamer]

Heard some interesting talk today, plastic heresy by christmas to replace LotR and Age of Sigmar will have rules for all units in the book, new units will have rules in the box and campaign books like the end times. Nothing on the mechanics of the game or anything though, as GW haven't told anyone outside of HQ.

That all sounds promising.

[Erik Setzer]

I know someone will give me flak for saying this, but... another page out of the X-Wing/Warmachine (and even Malifaux) playbook, which I'd honestly be surprised to not see more games doing it.

[Mr Mystery]

It's nothing particularly new.

End Times units have their basic rules in the box - but don't explain the special rules.

X-Wing however has no central book. You want every upgrade? Best buy one of everything, as each ship has some kind of unique card. Not an issue for me, as I do that anyway, but it does give me a wallet based advantage over someone less inclined to indulge.

[grimmas]

Yeah I seem to remember The Thrugg Bullnecks Space Ork Raiders box having the unit rules on the back of the box.

I'm not a massive fan of unit cards as an alternative to Army books but do I find them a useful addition to a book.

Of course it is a good way of ensuring people will have to buy your official models if they want to play your games, it'll be a shame if WFB goes that way I always felt GW's previous approach inspired people to produce their own twist on things was one its positives, inspiring people's imagination is rather important in "forging the narrative". It does make good business sense on paper so it's very plausible. But if PP and FFG do it must be ok 😒.

[Mr Mystery]

They had unit cards in 2nd Ed, after a fashion.

Trouble with lots of cards? Is having lots of cards. I've now got a big old folder just for my X-Wing cards - at least the ones I haven't left at a friends house.

Give me a book based system any day of the week. Ogres? I need my rule book and my army book. Adeptus Mechanicus? Rule book and two Codecies (because I run them as combined forces).

I've even dabbled with e-books on my iPad. Not entirely convinced if I'm honest, as I find them a bugger to navigate.

And as for Erik's response.....do you even read what you write? Is it written by committee? Because whatever you think you're writing, it seems that's not what you're actually writing.

Bizarrely, your writing style and internal logic is strikingly similar to one Matthew Hopkins, perhaps better known as the Witchfinder General. Lots of waffle, very little fact, often doesn't appear to have a point.

[Path Walker]

Actually, thinking about it, X Wings system is even more business orientated than Magic, at least with GWs "ah to win" formations you're getting models you can use with your army. Some of the best card upgrades for Rebels are in Inperial ship box, meaning if I wanted to be competitive, I have to buy models for a different faction just for a slip of card. That's not merging I particulately care about as I play it same as I ply everything , relaxed and with mates, but imagine if GW released formations for space marines but the only way to get them Was in an Ork box!

[Al Shut]

I like the way Wyrd does it with Malifaux. Unit rules in big books together with fluff and general rules, but also on unit cards that come with the models or special decks if you want the cards but use different models.

[Mr Mystery]

You then also have issues of availability.

Me, I had to hunt down a non-insanely priced Millenium Falcon which still had all the cards. Took me a long old while, but got there in the end.

Yes there are advantages to that system, including distinct financial ones - but GW has done what GW has done, and it's turned out pretty well so far. Main bonus about GW stuff? Buy one book - all the stuff needed to play your army is in there. Sure there's additional spangles out there if you want them, but none of it is necessary to keep your hand in. X-Wing is a different story.

[Erik Setzer]

I'll skim over personal insults, because now they're just boring. Geez, if you're going to try to insult or troll someone, be entertaining about it. Is that too much to ask? Yeah, guess so.

Eh... for X-Wing's approach, I'll just say a couple of things. First of all, I haven't really come across much in the way of cards that are unique that cause some humongous advantage, certainly not in friendly games. And those cards are generic upgrade cards, not necessarily rules just for that unit. Also, if you chose to overpay for a model rather than wait, that's on you. At one point I could have paid $100 for a Slave 1, but the one I got was brand new for something like $20-$25.

And you know what, let's go ahead and throw this out there: GW's come out with limited run models, and formations you can only get by buying formation bundles through them, spending hundreds of dollars on models you likely already own, with the advantages running up to the point the latest one is designed to ignore many of the balancing limitations put into the game. These aren't things you can wait until later to get. And if your response is, "Well, you can get a copy from someone else," well... you can do the same with X-Wing cards! Only they're not limited run and/or requiring you to spend hundreds of dollars direct with FFG. So yeah, we can kill those complaints.

The concept I outlined wouldn't include upgrade cards and stuff for other units. Or partial rules like have come before. It'd be like a "dataslate" (or "battlescroll"?) for that particular unit, with the necessary info to run it printed, and that's it. Keep books around, too, for those of us who love our books (and hey, I like books myself). But with the rules also in the boxes, someone can skip on buying a book of units they might not want. Even better (from GW's and gamers' perspective, I'd think), they could release new stuff that isn't in a book, throw a write-up in WD (huzzah, page filler!), and also have the rules in the box. Then they can release stuff out-of-sequence with a book. End of the year, do an AoS Annual with all the new rules (including any new scenarios, special rules, fun stuff like that) thrown in, like the old Warhammer Chronicles compendiums. Convenient for gamers, lets the company keep an accelerated pace, thwarts potential copyright issues... covers a lot of bases, and wouldn't add much in the way of expense to production costs (do it like those card flyers that come in the mail, and it'd be reasonably durable, while still being quite cheap to print, especially if you work a deal with the printer, as should be done when you're doing a bulk project).

Kind of wishful thinking (tempered by matching it to GW's style), but heck, some of the rumors already mentioned something like that.

[Path Walker]

Its nice that you ignore what people who actually play X Wing say about X Wing but, to be competitive, and after all thats the only way to make this an issue for either, then with X Wing you need to buy models of a different faction that you won't use with your chosen faction. And while not Limited Edition, they're printed in waves, so you might have to wait 6-8 months for a model to be available, I wanted A Wings and if I wanted to pay near RRP, i had to wait over a year for reprints.

The facts is, GW make Formtations in bundles to incentivise sales of new kits, saying they're "models you probably already own" is ignoring the fact that no, most people do not already own those brand new kits. This is the first time I can think of where it effected units that previously existed and even then, these are impressive new kits that they want people to buy. But at least the bonus you get is for the models you bought, thats simply not always the case with X Wing

[odinsgrandson]

GW doesn't need Age of Sigmar to outsell 40k in order for it to be worth it to GW financially.

If FF is making $40m profits, and GW is making $160m profit, that still doesn't mean that using the X-Wing model is bad for GW. It is only bad if they're giving up on supporting the game that gave them $150m profit... and it isn't Warhammer Fantasy Battle.


Here's the information we have on the market- these numbers are from ICv2:

- 40k is the biggest non-collectible miniatures game on the market, and has consistently been in that slot for many years.

- Below it are X-Wing, Warmachine, Hordes, and Attack Wing. They currently shuffle the order around- especially Warmachine and Hordes often switch spots (and they're always counted separately).

- Warhammer Fantasy Battle used to be a staple in the top 5, but it hasn't shown up on the chart for a good number of years. Before the X-Wing games, Malifaux and Reaper's Dark Heaven Legends have all been outselling WFB. Oh, and I never saw LotR on the list at all, but that one's not been a hot seller for a good long time.


Some people are basically saying that GW can't justify a marketing model that produces as little profit as X-Wing or some other game, but the truth is, they've been supporting those for a long time.

In order to be successful, GW doesn't need something that outsells 40k, they just need it to outsell Warhammer Fantasy Battle- and there are a lot of smaller companies that are currently doing that.

And in the best circumstances, they can create a game that sells better than WFB that does not cut into their 40k profits (ie, if the Age of Sigmar crowd isn't all people who are putting their 40k forces on hold to build an AoS force).

So it makes a lot of sense not to use the same business model that they already use for 40k.

- GW has been releasing statements that their sales and profits have been dropping ever since Mark Wells left. Here's the latest statement, (http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31808/games-workshop-says-sales-down) although we'll have to wait until the end of July to see a full financial statement.

For all the time I've seen GW report that their market share is dropping, I've never felt like they've tried anything new. Age of Sigmar might actually be them trying to do something that will actually alter the decline, and that can be a very good thing for them.

[Mr Mystery]

If that's based on the run down of sellers and that - I was under the impression that didn't include GW's direct sales, on account they told the compiler to bog off and mind their own business?

[Erik Setzer]

If that's based on the run down of sellers and that - I was under the impression that didn't include GW's direct sales, on account they told the compiler to bog off and mind their own business?

I wasn't going to use that for any kind of "evidence" myself because, as I understand it, they basically survey retailers and distributors... and GW is doing its best to keep people from using non-GW means to purchase GW products. But then, it'd also be a little off given that X-Wing and D&D Attack Wing are sold in non-game-stores, like large book store chains. So the information is a rough estimation based on the best available knowledge.

That report from GW isn't very good, though. The whole End Times series, all those new expensive models, all the new stuff for their flagship game 40K, and they still saw a drop of 5%? At that point, a radical new scheme to sell Warhammer stuff might not seem like a bad idea, and they can try out different things without it causing problems for their top selling line. I'm not going to say "The End is Nigh!" (the end of the [Warhammer] world already happened), but there's not really any way to spin revenue drops as a good thing.

[grimmas]

What I was actually saying was that the sales model for x-wing doesn't make enough money for it to be worth while for GW to follow because it simply isn't pulling enough money. Of course GW may make more from doing the same thing but there's no evidence that will be the case.

We don't know if FFG makes any profit at all or what proportion of there revenue is x-wing, however it was $20m before they released it and $40m 2 years later so we could make a reasonably educated guess at $20m (£12m) assuming none of their other products lncreased as well.

That ain't a lot of money compared to what GW pulls in (10%). Is it believable that WFB makes up more than 10% of GWs sale, historically yes but believe what you like.

Yes sales have been dropping, probably by more than that. GW needs to make more money than that.

My objection to "they should do what X is doing" is because what X is doing ain't enough there needs to be something else. It's also comparing the particises of a much smaller company which operate in very different ways.

WFB needs to make big money it doesn't need to out sell 40K but it needs to sell more than £12m

Of course the survey data is flawed it's only for the U.S. and doesn't cover direct sales (something GW does quite a lot of) at the very least of its issues but it does give us some context.

As I've said before though I'm will to be proved wrong but I'm going to need to see some evidence.

Oh and could this years drop be due to may be people easing up on WFB buys knowing that things are likely to be changing, I don't know but it would have an effect?

[Erik Setzer]

It was never "They should do exactly what X-Wing does." It was more of "A modification of that system fitting GW's ability to produce a wider ranger of products in greater quantities could be handy."

You argue that the X-Wing model, in any way or variation, can't make enough, pointing to what you estimate it's earning... and then you later note it's by a company that produces less stuff, meaning you know why using those (estimated) sales numbers doesn't work. You're assuming that if GW did a similar concept of "release models usable by one of two or three core factions with the rules to play them included" means "Reduce production capabilities, only put out two or three waves with a limited number of products each year, and price them much lower than current GW products, while also having them assembled and pre-painted to a decent quality."

I'm not sure how you think anyone would even suggest that.



Oh and could this years drop be due to may be people easing up on WFB buys knowing that things are likely to be changing, I don't know but it would have an effect?

No. Certainly not a drop that big. They released the "exciting" (not saying it wasn't, just that's the top buzzword people used for it) End Times series of books and models, which were not cheap at all, and likely would have drawn in more money for WFB in the past year than it'd been bringing in. While the End Times sales did peter off toward the end, itself a condemnation of how well GW can handle even something that should have been a "sure thing," the only way sales for WFB drop so hard that it results in a 5% net drop for the whole company is if the lack of info coming out about what's next is scaring people off. I know there are some people who recently stopped making purchases (but average that with their earlier purchases of End Times stuff, and they still spent what they would have in a usual year, if not more), but that'd have to be a serious drop-off. And if anything would argue against Games Workshop's over-the-top secrecy recently, that would be the best argument.

The more likely explanation is that people are skimming dollars away from their GW purchases to start checking out more games, and GW's actually positioned themselves to be vulnerable to competition siphoning off sales like that. I don't think it's coincidence that other companies are growing in revenue as GW shrinks.

Oh, and here's something else to consider: 40K 7th edition - you know, the rushed new edition of their flagship game - came out in late May last year, meaning most of its sales would have been on this fiscal year. So you have 40K7, End Times, lots of new expensive kits for both systems, two campaigns, multiple codex redo's, three entire new armies for 40K, an expensive board game (that, despite being limited quantities, is still available pretty much everywhere), a full year of the White Dwarf and Visions remake... With that lineup, they should have customers excitedly rushing to throw money at them.

Meh, that's depressing talk. I want to try to get excited over something.

I'm going to hope for an AoS that, even with nonsense background to explain how this works, has open-ended factions that will let me throw whatever madness I want on the table for cinematic battles between heroes and their entourages.

[odinsgrandson]

What I'm saying is that GW's business model has been the definition of insanity for a while: Keep doing what you've been doing and expect different results.

Age of Sigmar, if any of the rumors are true, might represent a departure from their previous business practices.

I mean, like an actual attempt to turn it around, rather than pad the books and stall (like re-releasing Space Hulk again).

And honestly, I hope it rocks.

[Erik Setzer]

Okay, this is confusing...

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/06/an-introduction-to-age-of-sigmar.html

That makes it sound like everything is pretty much the same, a few minor tweaks, but people can use different formations, and the way those work make it sound like round bases would not be a good idea, because some armies would want to rank up all the time, which is much easier on square bases.

I'm not sure which one I consider more "salty." I may not be keen on Warhammer being swept away completely, but if it's just minor edits and a rules system that really favors a different type of base than the one they're using, why go through all this major effort?

And then tack on the comments here:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/06/age-of-sigmar-box-and-brb-topic-of.html

So if the point is to bring in new players, I get the idea of going with even smaller battles (at least "core") and going in a new direction with the rules and all.

Three weeks out, and I'm more confused than ever...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Another restatement of that theme we've had: there's two distinct and contradictory tracks of rumours, one of which says it's a total break, another of which says it's basically the same. It could just be different interpretations of the same thing by people with different takes and perspectives (or who are seeing different parts of the same whole); it could be that there are two different systems. We don't know!

Although, it is worth saying that things are coalescing a lot more now. We know about round bases and new formation types, we know about "Regalia". Not long now. Be strong~!

[grimmas]

I rather like the sound of the first rumour Erik posted I really like the sound of the multiple formation types. Also the idea of a female ruling caste for one of the races is something that's popped up a couple of times before from GW

Oh and Erik the last paragraph in your penultimate post, now we're in agreement. 😊

As a further edit, if the points values remain anything like comparable with what they are now, 1000-1500pt is still going to be a considerably higher model count than a skirmish game and unles I'm mistaken very much towards the top end model count in Warmachine if not higher as well.

The plot thickens but I'm liking the way this is going, if it can scale both ways as well it could be something.

[grimmas]

What I'm saying is that GW's business model has been the definition of insanity for a while: Keep doing what you've been doing and expect different results.

Age of Sigmar, if any of the rumors are true, might represent a departure from their previous business practices.

I mean, like an actual attempt to turn it around, rather than pad the books and stall (like re-releasing Space Hulk again).

And honestly, I hope it rocks.

Actually I'd argue that it was a big change that triggered this downward spiral and GW needs to get back to doing what it done so well for the preceding 25yrs or so but more of that in the Corporate discussion thread.

I think we all want the WFB revamp to work we just have different ideas on how to do it and what GW will do

[Erik Setzer]

As a further edit, if the points values remain anything like comparable with what they are now, 1000-1500pt is still going to be a considerably higher model count than a skirmish game and unles I'm mistaken very much towards the top end model count in Warmachine if not higher as well.

The post noted characters at ~300 points. For End Times, they were releasing units where the cost-per-model was anywhere from 50 to 90 points. If that becomes more the norm, you can expect smaller armies at 1000 points, unless someone really wants to try to throw cannon fodder at Khorne's flail-wielding-maniacs-of-doom.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"I think we all want the WFB revamp to work we just have different ideas on how to do it and what GW will do"

Definitely.

[grimmas]

The post noted characters at ~300 points. For End Times, they were releasing units where the cost-per-model was anywhere from 50 to 90 points. If that becomes more the norm, you can expect smaller armies at 1000 points, unless someone really wants to try to throw cannon fodder at Khorne's flail-wielding-maniacs-of-doom.

Blood for the blood God. Fair point but 40K has some pretty high cost units and still manages to keep a decent model count. That said ideally it should be able to allow both styles both elite and horde armies equally. Damn it I'm building this up to much now.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Hell will freeze over before GW releases a game system that doesn't work with big armies and hundreds of dollars of figures on one table at once, at least as a part of the ruleset. ;)

So, we're two weeks out from the pre-orders, which usually means that stuff begins leaking in earnest around about now, or in the next week and a bit at least. I'm still excited. I just want to see some dang stuff, already!

[Mr Mystery]

I do and I don't...

Much as I like the sneak peeks, I also enjoy 'the big reveal' on the day.

Example of when I manage it? The Force Awakens. 6 months out, lined up to see my folks at Christmas, and see that film with my brother, which will make it the first Star Wars film we've both seen for the first time in the cinema together (not counting the Special Editions). Whilst I'm happy to watch Trailers, I'm otherwise avoiding rumours and spoilers.

Age of Sigmar has a similar significance to me.

[Erik Setzer]

I do and I don't...

Much as I like the sneak peeks, I also enjoy 'the big reveal' on the day.

Example of when I manage it? The Force Awakens. 6 months out, lined up to see my folks at Christmas, and see that film with my brother, which will make it the first Star Wars film we've both seen for the first time in the cinema together (not counting the Special Editions). Whilst I'm happy to watch Trailers, I'm otherwise avoiding rumours and spoilers.

Age of Sigmar has a similar significance to me.

The Force Awakens will be two hours, not that much money. It's not as much of an investment lost. Even more, we've gotten LOTS of info on it, even if it's just basic plot ideas, some of the characters who'll be back, etc., and that's even if you just stick to the teaser trailers.

In contrast, we're close to release, know nothing about AoS other than there's some product called AoS coming out, and if it is a new game, it will be a minimum $85 investment.

At that point, I'd rather wait and see what the bloody thing actually is, rather than waste my money.

The Force Awakens is Star Wars, which gets high points from me, as I'm a huge Star Wars fanatic. There was a time a new edition of a GW game - or, more importantly, the long-gone days of a new game by GW - would get a lot of interest and excitement from me. But there's two problems there. First, they've made me cynical with some of the stuff they're doing being obvious corporate moves that harm my enjoyment of the setting even, much less the game (seriously, stop coming up with stupid new names for stuff just to try to copyright it). More importantly, I was invested in the Warhammer world, loved the Warhammer world, enjoyed playing in the Warhammer world, and they literally destroyed the Warhammer world. This new game - if it's even a game, because we can't even get confirmation on that - is not the Warhammer world. It is something different. A completely redone setting that, if the rumors are true, is pretty obviously designed to be able to sell as much stuff as possible without caring that the background makes no sense and sounds worse than the the worst Ward fluff.

The Warhammer world is gone. Any chance for them to have me as interested as I am in Star Wars is gone with their willingness to obliterate 30 years of a game's history. Now it's more like a Mad Max or Jurassic World, or most movies... Sure, they could be fun (and we actually know more about them before release than we do AoS), but I'll check out reviews before I drop my cash to see the movie in theaters.

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic, and have told friends that if it's done right, I can enjoy it even if the background is lame, as long as the game is fun and isn't too expensive to get into. But I'm realistic about what it is, and I'm not as eager to throw my money into something that could be a flaming pile of garbage. (Yes, that might be worst case scenario, but we've gotten to the point where the worst case scenario is possible.)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I've been on tenterhooks since, oh, let's say... Nagash, and so I'm gonna inhale whatever I can get as soon as I can get it. ;)

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

I've been playing Warhammer for decades. I'm yet to find a GW game to be 'meh' or worse, I've enjoyed them all.

I honestly have no reason to believe they'd fluff it now.

Let's go back to what Mikhail told us... GW Rep allegedly saying this edition is aimed at recruiting, without alienating existing players.

The long set of rumours about 'Regalia' have numerous holes which I'm not willing to put down to the language barrier. The game described just doesn't make sense, as it doesnt seem to allow for artillery or big honking monsters - and we've had it all but confirmed that no units are being removed from the game.

Now has Mikhail been 100% accurate in the past? Nope, but then no rumour monger has. Hell, 6th Ed Orcs and Goblins put Gobbos up by a point. I said this wasn't right, as I'd had my hands on the play test Army Book at the time, and they'd not gone up a jot. Turns out that changed quite late on. Did that make my info wrong? No, just out of date.

But here Mikhail has a decent track record, and has pointed to his source. The long one? Yeah not so much.

[Houghten]

The Warhammer world is gone. Any chance for them to have me as interested as I am in Star Wars is gone with their willingness to obliterate 30 years of a game's history.
The history isn't obliterated. All of it still happened. The latest event in said history just happens to be the re-creation from scratch of the entire universe. It's not like Storm of Chaos where they just went "yeah, actually, ignore all that."


Hell, 6th Ed Orcs and Goblins put Gobbos up by a point. I said this wasn't right, as I'd had my hands on the play test Army Book at the time, and they'd not gone up a jot. Turns out that changed quite late on. Did that make my info wrong? No, just out of date.

I'm not sure how "out of date" qualifies as "not wrong."

[Mr Mystery]

Source was legit. Page set play test copy of the Codex. When I was giving the info, it was accurate. By the time the final product was out, inaccurate.

In short, it was correct at the time of 'going to press' rather than pulled out of my arse, or the result of Chinese whispers,

[Erik Setzer]

I've been playing Warhammer for decades. I'm yet to find a GW game to be 'meh' or worse, I've enjoyed them all.

Well, Epic 40K was so "meh" - at best - that it heralded the end of what had for a long time been GW's 3rd "top" game.

While I enjoyed GorkaMorka (because I'm an Ork player), it wasn't that popular overall, and even I have to admit some of the background was so bad it seemed like it was written by a child.

Warmaster was also regarded with such lack of enthusiasm that it had possibly the shortest shelf life of any non-boardgame in GW's range.

You might be super-enthusiastic about anything GW produces, but especially by now, you're in the minority. True devotees to any company are really in the minority. You're a useful commodity to the company, because you'll buy whatever they produce and tell everyone it's better than anything anyone else produces. But your enthusiasm and eagerness to declare it all gold doesn't make it actual gold or mean that enough people will like it to keep it running.

[Mr Mystery]

Played Warmahordes - wasn't to my tastes.

I'm mental for X-Wing.

Put off by Armada because the models I saw weren't nice enough for the money being asked.

I also dabble in MTG.

So it's not a Fanboi thing.

And am I in a minority? Who knows. Local gaming circle (which is extensive) is still comprised 100% of GW players who happen to dabble in other games - and that includes our local 'anything goes' club.

Which reminds me. I think I've got a Mechanicus v Mechanicus game on Thursday. Should probs check.

[Erik Setzer]

The history isn't obliterated. All of it still happened. The latest event in said history just happens to be the re-creation from scratch of the entire universe. It's not like Storm of Chaos where they just went "yeah, actually, ignore all that."

It might have "happened," but it's not going to be referenced in the new books, which will likely treat the old world as if it was some completely different setting (and it basically is now). So yes, they're basically going to say "Ignore all that, because it's gone now." They made the old version of the Warhammer setting irrelevant. It's not the current setting, it's almost certainly not going to be referenced. It's gone.

This new game is a new setting, and so far it sounds like the only thing making it seem like Warhammer is the races will look the same at first (and if all those claims of wanting to make things more copyrightable are true, then they'll have to all be morphed into unrecognizable messes).

[Erik Setzer]

Played Warmahordes - wasn't to my tastes.

I'm mental for X-Wing.

Put off by Armada because the models I saw weren't nice enough for the money being asked.

I also dabble in MTG.

So it's not a Fanboi thing.

And am I in a minority? Who knows. Local gaming circle (which is extensive) is still comprised 100% of GW players who happen to dabble in other games - and that includes our local 'anything goes' club.

Which reminds me. I think I've got a Mechanicus v Mechanicus game on Thursday. Should probs check.

You can be into other stuff and still be a "fanboi" (and I'm sorry, but you should be slapped for that spelling, even if it's "ironic"). I was at one point a "fanboy" of Star Wars but still into other sci-fi. Loved Babylon 5, but I'd still get every Star Wars comic and novel I could.

You use anecdotal evidence from your location? Okay, fair enough, I'll do the same. Locally, the GW store is starting to bleed customers because the company's attitudes are so atrocious that the manager's own great attitude can't override that, and the style the games are going in has caused the people playing there to become WAAC players. That's led to people leaving the store to go find somewhere else where they can play other games.

X-Wing, Armada, Bolt Action, and Warmachine are all gaining even more players, and already had solid followings. (Also Flames of War, I believe.) In many cases, people are ditching GW almost entirely because the models are getting prohibitively expensive (especially as you need so many of them), WFB's just been killed to be replaced by who-knows-what, 40K is becoming increasingly broken (and especially if you include the BS web bundle formations, the latest of which was basically "give us a bunch of money and we'll let you ignore all the rules meant to balance things"), and the company's attitude toward FGLS's is toxic because they know people who play at an FLGS and buy from one will be exposed to competing products, and if you can't be arsed to use competitive business practices, it's better to pretend there's no competition.

There's a guy locally who pushed people hard to get into WFB. Sung its praises, talked it up over 40K, said how it was basically the best game out there. Rumors about AoS have him ready to quit entirely.

So, yeah. A lot of people aren't going to just say "Hey, GW is putting out something new, it's going to be awesome and the best thing ever and I'm going to give them my money ASAP!" Especially as they earned the cynicism.

Oh, and with Armada, you clearly saw bad ships. I've got the main set, I've bought some of the Rebel ships to expand, I've seen others (because people are snatching up fleets to play... heck, the guy who just won a 40K tourney at a convention last weekend was in a store yesterday to pick up some Armada stuff, and the GW store's Facebook chat devolved briefly to Armada chat before the manager asked them to stop), and the ships are pretty nice. Given that they're pre-assembled, prepainted (to a solid degree), and contain all the rules and counters needed to expand your fleet properly, the price is definitely not a problem. Especially when a Rhino or Drop Pod costs the same as a VSD, and then you have to assemble and paint it, and buy another book to have the rules.

[Path Walker]

It might have "happened," but it's not going to be referenced in the new books, which will likely treat the old world as if it was some completely different setting (and it basically is now). So yes, they're basically going to say "Ignore all that, because it's gone now." They made the old version of the Warhammer setting irrelevant. It's not the current setting, it's almost certainly not going to be referenced. It's gone.

This new game is a new setting, and so far it sounds like the only thing making it seem like Warhammer is the races will look the same at first (and if all those claims of wanting to make things more copyrightable are true, then they'll have to all be morphed into unrecognizable messes).

According to what? The game is called Age of Sigmar and you're saying it will have no links to the Old World? The only fluff people actually know is that its built on the memory of the survivors of the End Times, its going to be the Warhammer world.

You're a moron, this is a well established fact but that is the most moronic thing you've said in this thread so far.

[Path Walker]

And, to add to the anecdotal eveidence fest - Armada has failed to be taken up locally, the (NS)FLGS hasn't sold a single starter set, ships aren't selling at all and X Wing is tailing off too, shops bought in loads of stock expecting to sell out fast again only to be stuck with a load of ships now.

STAW died, as did D&DAW, Armada looks to be going that way in the UK too from what I've heard from others.

Your opinions on GWs buiness model are increasingly looking like bitter ravings Erik, with no basis in fact, complaining about "pay to win" mechanics while ignoring those of X Wing and Armada for example

[odinsgrandson]

And am I in a minority? Who knows. Local gaming circle (which is extensive) is still comprised 100% of GW players who happen to dabble in other games - and that includes our local 'anything goes' club.


I find that interesting. I guess local metas can look very different.

I used to see other miniatures games only played by people who also play 40k- so we were all GW players who dabbled in other games. Then later, the miniatures gamers didn't necessarily play 40k, but they all had gotten started with 40k (and many had attitude about GW- but that was true when we only played GW games).

But now, I know a lot of people who play miniatures games regularly, have huge armies painted up, and haven't ever played GW's games, and one or two that have huge Warmahordes forces and dabble in GW's games (like a box set or two). And a bigger issue is that I haven't seen a younger crowd get into GW games around here at all (I got my first Eldar when I was ten).

I'm sure that this colors the way that I read tabletop news and GW's financial reports. I see what is going on locally, and ascribe those reasons to what is going on all over. But the world is always more complex than one picture of it.


As for my part, I still think that Blood Bowl is the best thing that GW ever made by a good margin, but you'd hear that from any Blood Bowl player.

[Path Walker]

You're wrong because its Necromunda, not Blood Bowl.

I'd say, at least in the UK, the vast majority of table top wargamers at least start with GW, because GW take on that expense, having shops to recruit new blood, without that, the wargaming scene in the UK would shrink a lot after a few years.

[odinsgrandson]

You're wrong because its Necromunda, not Blood Bowl.

I'd say, at least in the UK, the vast majority of table top wargamers at least start with GW, because GW take on that expense, having shops to recruit new blood, without that, the wargaming scene in the UK would shrink a lot after a few years.

That's interesting. I got started gaming in Aberdeen (Scotland) at a game store called Plan 9. They eventually built a GW shop in Aberdeen, but I never went to it as much as I did Plan 9.

And here in the US, there are barely any GW stores anywhere- the wargaming scene would barely notice if they all closed.

(And while I do love Necromunda, it is still Blood Bowl. Necromunda and Mordheim do close the gap a bit, though).

[Mr Mystery]

You're both wrong.

Space Marine/Titan Legions,

[40kGamer]

You're both wrong.

Space Marine/Titan Legions,

Absolutely.

[Erik Setzer]

You're both wrong.

Space Marine/Titan Legions,

And THAT is why I worry about AoS... That was a brilliant system, and Epic 40K just neutered it horribly.

Space Marine/Adeptus Titanicus (the first edition of that system) was sort of what got me into GW games. My dad played it in the back of a local shop and I'd watch, and was so into it that I'd sit in class and draw Titans and stuff.

Off-topic, but a fun tangent... The guy who managed that store (it was part of a small local "chain") now owns his own shop right by the neighborhood I grew up in. Just talked to him last week, ended up having like an hour-long conversation on naval forces through history. It's nice to see some of the people you knew when you got into the hobby over 25 years ago are still around.

[Mr Mystery]

And how many years ago was that?

If we're still worrying about stuff that we worried about decades ago, I'd still be worried about when puberty would hit (1994 as it happens), would I ever get a bird (yes) amongst myriad other things.

Erik. You see, determined to paint this in the worst possible light, and it's something of a recurring theme in your posts. Why?

[40kGamer]

And THAT is why I worry about AoS... That was a brilliant system, and Epic 40K just neutered it horribly.

Space Marine/Adeptus Titanicus (the first edition of that system) was sort of what got me into GW games. My dad played it in the back of a local shop and I'd watch, and was so into it that I'd sit in class and draw Titans and stuff.

Off-topic, but a fun tangent... The guy who managed that store (it was part of a small local "chain") now owns his own shop right by the neighborhood I grew up in. Just talked to him last week, ended up having like an hour-long conversation on naval forces through history. It's nice to see some of the people you knew when you got into the hobby over 25 years ago are still around.

I love 1st/2nd edition Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine and like many if not most long time players was not fond of Epic 40k. Still, if you look at 3rd edition/Epic 40k objectively it is actually a solid game system, it's 'flaw' if you can call it such is that it abstracts too much detail in an effort to streamline huge battles which leads to a distinct lack of 'flavor'... it basically feels like an old school map and cardboard counter game. 4th Ed Epic Armageddon actually blends the 3 previous systems together to make a very nice game.

Given the current state of things at GW, AoS will not suffer from over abstraction as a game system. Epic40k is pretty much the only example of over abstraction in a GW tabletop game. I am afraid AoS will receive the 40k treatment which substitutes randomness for the sake of randomness and have limited utility for pick up games and events. It's hard to get excited if it proves to be another game that panders to the WAAC crowd and therefore only works in a narrative basement setting. I'm seriously hoping that Sigmar at least believes in attempting to balance the design.

- - - Updated - - -


And how many years ago was that?

If we're still worrying about stuff that we worried about decades ago, I'd still be worried about when puberty would hit (1994 as it happens), would I ever get a bird (yes) amongst myriad other things.

Erik. You see, determined to paint this in the worst possible light, and it's something of a recurring theme in your posts. Why?

If I get to worry about something from decades ago it would be a return to RT style rules. Who wants to play a game with a couple squads each that takes the whole weekend to resolve! :)

[Mr Mystery]

Not bloody me, matey.

Which is why my Landraider will hurl two Plasma Support Missiles at you. That ought to wrap things up in a jiffy :p

[grimmas]

You're both wrong.

Space Marine/Titan Legions,

Don't you mean 7th ed 40K 😳

Epic/BFG were rules wise the best GW ever did, the problem was people were just so attached to Space Marine in fact they are proof at good rules doesn't equal success.

Of course you are all wrong Warhammer Ancients was the best GW game a heady mix of Warhammer and common sense awesome!

Erik you sound like you need to grieve get yourself down to my The End thread in WFB background and reminisce on a lost world

[Wildeybeast]

Does anyone have any actual news or rumours? Every time I check its either prophecies of doom or folks being super hyped. I haven't heard anything to evoke either reaction yet.

[Path Walker]

Different people like different things, some people loved the abstratcion of 3rd Ed Epic, some hated it, as 40kGamer said, the 4th edition, Epic Armageddon, was arguably the better system. Some will swear 3rd edition WFB was the best (look at the Oldhammer community) while some will say 4th or 5th. (Its generally which ever was out when you were 11 until you started caring more about trying to get laid than model soldiers)

A lot of it is nostalgia, if you're in your mid 30s, then 3rd ed Epic was new and changed the game you knew from your childhood (I suspect Erik is in this camp, the fact he's in a childish tantrum over AoS shows he's not matured since then)

Some people thought both 3rd edition 40K and Epic was great because it streamlined the game, abstracting everything to the bare bones and making a really quick, easy to pick up game. Some hated it for removing the detail. You can't please everyone.

The Games Workshop that did that to 40k was the one that made 3rd Ed Epic too, they've changed since then, look at 40k now, they're adding more and more to it, less abstract rules, more like second edition, heck we can even through grenades now.

If GW are going to change the game, they're going to add more fidelity to it because thats the pattern we've been seeing for over a decade now, a slow return to more detailed game mechanics and so now people are calling it overly complicated and bloated.

You can't please everyone.

[Mr Mystery]

And then there are those who refuse to be pleased, and insist on picking holes, oftentimes by changing up their demands. And pretending they didn't.

[Erik Setzer]

And how many years ago was that?

If we're still worrying about stuff that we worried about decades ago, I'd still be worried about when puberty would hit (1994 as it happens), would I ever get a bird (yes) amongst myriad other things.

It's a valid point to bring up when people say, "Well, GW's never done wrong when changing rules sets." They did once. And in that case I don't think it was a major move to try to salvage a 30-year-old game that somehow got run into the ground.

If you don't have a counter to a point, you don't have to make up something completely missing the point in an attempt to mock it.

[Mr Mystery]

I think you need to flag your points more, as all I'm reading is doomsaying negativity because GW once did something you didn't quite take to that one time which has clearly set a precedent even though it was only that one time.

As others have said, whilst I too enjoyed Space Marine and Titan Legions a great deal, Epic Armageddon was a solid rule set.

[Erik Setzer]

Does anyone have any actual news or rumours? Every time I check its either prophecies of doom or folks being super hyped. I haven't heard anything to evoke either reaction yet.

There's no news or rumors to report.

The rumors out there can evoke a wide variety of reactions. Perhaps you missed them? One set was of some crazy series of changes not just to the background but also how the game plays, which sounds like it could possibly be a pretty fun game but wouldn't be Warhammer any more. Another set described relatively minor changes to gameplay (and made round bases sound even more questionable) and possibly big changes to background, which sounds kind of like what the game needed in terms of rules, but still iffy on the potential background.

Then throw in the confusion on whether AoS is actually a new game, or just some kind of "game-in-a-box." The latter would be a bit of a waste, but seems incredibly unlikely given that all current WFB starters, rulebooks, army books, End Times books, movement trays, cards, and counters have been pulled from shelves. Some rumors claimed (laughably) that such a move was temporary based on GW trying to sell remaining stock via their website and store managers being willing to sell remaining books so as not to just chuck them without people getting a last chance to buy them, but news has also come out that those products are no longer up for restock. So if we aren't getting a new game soon, that's some sales being lost.

And that's pretty much what's been out there. Conflicting stuff. Some sounds good, some sounds bad, it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see why it's a crime to be cautious about it and not get too hyped right now.

- - - Updated - - -


I think you need to flag your points more, as all I'm reading is doomsaying negativity because GW once did something you didn't quite take to that one time which has clearly set a precedent even though it was only that one time.

As others have said, whilst I too enjoyed Space Marine and Titan Legions a great deal, Epic Armageddon was a solid rule set.

Epic Armageddon ended up being a bit too much "too little, too late," sadly. I never even saw it in stores, because interest in Epic scale had died so much. IIRC, they took the lessons learned with the reaction to E40K, and tried to make a better version, but so many people remembered the bad experience with E40K that EArm couldn't resuscitate the game. That's not to say EArm was bad, and I won't declare it as such (because it didn't sound bad). But it's kind of a footnote overall, unfortunately.

That system did work out pretty good for BFG, though.

You read "doomsaying" because I'm cautious and don't get overhyped. You want to be super-hyped before hand and claim GW never did anything wrong and everything they touch is golden, including the "Finecast" models sitting warped on store shelves? Fine. But that seems to taint your view so any criticism of GW, and anything less than "ERMAHGERD THIS NEW GAME WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IS GOING TO BE AMAZEBALLS" is "doom-saying." Which really just gets annoying after a while and does make me bitter.

[Mr Mystery]

Be bitter all you want - and I think you mastered that some time ago.

And who mentioned Finecast? Or are you just shifting parameters to make it look less like you're just trying to neg everyone out and bring us down?

[Path Walker]

Erik, if you were saying "I'm cautious about this change because I remember changes to systems that ended up making the hobby less enjoyable for me and my gaming group and I so I'm reserving judgement until I can see more of what’s happening" then yeah, that’s not doom saying.

You're not doing that, you're in full on Chicken Little mode, the sky is falling because everything GW have ever done is to personally ruin your enjoyment of the game because they're incompetent and can't do anything right unlike all those other games systems and companies who treat their customers like revered Gods. You're saying everything new they've ever done has been terrible, bringing up things that happened 15 years ago by an almost totally different creative team as examples, using the admitted stop-gap product (so they could afford to still have non-plastic product on the shelves) as an example despite being utterly irrelevant. Inventing stories of this local game shop that you're totally in with and all your almost certainly fictitious friends play at who all hate GW just as much as you.

You're a "hater", a classic example even, you are down on every single thing about GW and their games and yet, you apparently still think it’s appropriate to comment on things they're doing despite not actually being a customer.

You don't give them money, you have no stake in this.

[Mr Mystery]

Anyways.

WD teaser this week is a review of Warhammer so far.

Dunno what that will involve beyond the startlingly obvious, but it would be the first non-Chrimbo week there hasn't been a new release.

[40kGamer]

Side note: When you actually look at the design and game mechanics GW has never made a bad game. While I am not a fan of several of their games for various reasons it is a matter of taste rather than any of their games being unplayable.

On the rumor front I don't know that any of these are necessarily new but here is what I gathered from a variety of sources.

From my most reliable source I got this note that mirrors a lot of what we've heard already.

"Warhammer hasn't been trashed. Age of sigmar is another fantasy game that continues the end times story line and is not 9th edition. All models you currently own will still be usable in the future with the new version of fantasy."


I've received mixed messages from retailers... most now state that they were instructed to pull the WFB starter set and ALL ARMY BOOKS. This is the first time I remember GW pulling the entire game system in one fell swoop so 9th will be a complete rewrite, 8th is well and truly dead. I've also heard that several large WFB kits are not currently available for order through the FLGS. Not sure if this is do to reboxing or a sign that plastic kits may actually go the route of limited runs. On the flip side I have other retailers that say they do not have any model ordering restrictions yet... really weird.

On the speculation front, I've had several long time industry people tell me that they expect new design aesthetics for all WFB races to bring them in line with GW's heightened desire for exclusive IP. I guess we may still be seeing the fallout from the Chapterhouse debacle. If true, this will be interesting... I can't really visualize how you can make the races in WFB distinct enough to make them rock solid IP.

I'm hoping for a Warhammer Quest/Mordheim/Dreadfleet style game with Age of Sigmar. Guess we'll know soon enough.

[Bigred]

via Sheriff of Nottingham (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?410190-A-celebration-of-Warhammer) 6-22-2015


Sent to me as a rumor:

"A celebration of Warhammer will be a limited edition hardcover book with a look back at over 30 years of Warhammer. Lots of pictures of minis and classic illustrations as well as articles from the makers of the game."


So a fan service for veterans.

So, perhaps a Warhammer Fantasy retrospective equivalent to this:

Visions of the Dark Millennium (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Visions-of-the-Dark-Millenium)