Where did I get this idea? (that I swear cost me a game)

[gwensdad]

Somehow, during a game yesterday, my opponent used his scout moves to place units only about 12" from my deployment zone. I went first and advanced to 6" from him. But for some reason I was under the idea that on the first player turn you couldn't charge the enemy. I have no idea where this came from but I was certain I saw it somewhere.

Anyone have any idea where I could have gotten such an idea?

[Kernbanks]

Crack... it happens and it sucks when it does

[Nabterayl]

You could have charged. You're probably thinking of this: "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first turn." Page 41.

[gwensdad]

You could have charged. You're probably thinking of this: "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first turn." Page 41.

Maybe. Or maybe about not being able to charge from reserve. Those are the only things I can think of.

[Archon Charybdis]

Yeah, it sounds like you were maybe thinking of the restriction on player turn 1 infiltrators and scouts.

[rich_clean_jammies]

Somehow, during a game yesterday, my opponent used his scout moves to place units only about 12" from my deployment zone. I went first and advanced to 6" from him. But for some reason I was under the idea that on the first player turn you couldn't charge the enemy. I have no idea where this came from but I was certain I saw it somewhere.

Anyone have any idea where I could have gotten such an idea?

It sounds like he wasn't playing the Scouting rule correctly. Read it again. Scout is no longer a 'move' it is redeployment and so the unit can't be moved closer to you. The rules for a redeployment are the same as a deployment with the exception that infiltrators may have blocked off sections of your deployment zone. The redeployment has to stay inside its own deployment zone, it can just re-position to head towards a flank, take cover, limit infiltrating possibilities, or commit to a side. I think you are still playing it like in the 5th edition unless they have both infiltrate AND scout.

[OrksOrksOrks]

It sounds like he wasn't playing the Scouting rule correctly. Read it again. Scout is no longer a 'move' it is redeployment and so the unit can't be moved closer to you. The rules for a redeployment are the same as a deployment with the exception that infiltrators may have blocked off sections of your deployment zone. The redeployment has to stay inside its own deployment zone, it can just re-position to head towards a flank, take cover, limit infiltrating possibilities, or commit to a side. I think you are still playing it like in the 5th edition unless they have both infiltrate AND scout.


No where in the USR does it say you have to stay in your original deployment zone, otherwise, why would it specify that you have to be 12" from an enemy unit and that you can't assualt, use your common sense here, they changed the wording to redeploy to stop you effecting it with other things that effect movement, like the Dread Knights shunt move, you can deploy on the edge of your deployment zone and then move 6" forward if you want.

[Denzark]

I think you were thinking of Monopoly and not getting £200 when you first pass 'Go'.

[rich_clean_jammies]

No where in the USR does it say you have to stay in your original deployment zone, otherwise, why would it specify that you have to be 12" from an enemy unit and that you can't assualt, use your common sense here, they changed the wording to redeploy to stop you effecting it with other things that effect movement, like the Dread Knights shunt move, you can deploy on the edge of your deployment zone and then move 6" forward if you want.

That isn't how the rules system works. You don't look for wording which prevents you from deploying outside of your deployment zone, you look for wording which allows you to deploy outside of your deployment zone. As far as I have found, there is none. The only reference which is made is to redeploy your forces. As 'redeploy' isn't defined further, then you have to assume that it means to re-deploy - to deploy again and in which case you do a second deployment which would follow the rules for your first deployment. The reason why it specifies that you must stay 12" away from an enemy unit is because things have changed since the first deployment, infiltrators have been placed. If a unit of infiltrators has been placed within your deployment zone that 12" clarification has been put in place to ensure that the scout move doesn't allow you to place your bike unit literally right next to their deployed unit.

I see your point about not using the term 'movement' so that you can't gain a jinx save from it or whatnot, but I can't find wording which overrides the fact that it is still a deployment and if it wasn't for the way the rule was worded in the previous edition, I don't see why anyone would think you could do that.

[OrksOrksOrks]

That isn't how the rules system works. You don't look for wording which prevents you from deploying outside of your deployment zone, you look for wording which allows you to deploy outside of your deployment zone. As far as I have found, there is none. The only reference which is made is to redeploy your forces. As 'redeploy' isn't defined further, then you have to assume that it means to re-deploy - to deploy again and in which case you do a second deployment which would follow the rules for your first deployment. The reason why it specifies that you must stay 12" away from an enemy unit is because things have changed since the first deployment, infiltrators have been placed. If a unit of infiltrators has been placed within your deployment zone that 12" clarification has been put in place to ensure that the scout move doesn't allow you to place your bike unit literally right next to their deployed unit.

I see your point about not using the term 'movement' so that you can't gain a jinx save from it or whatnot, but I can't find wording which overrides the fact that it is still a deployment and if it wasn't for the way the rule was worded in the previous edition, I don't see why anyone would think you could do that.

Because thats how it works, I see what you're saying, but, it says to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches (for infantry), this in effect makes a new deployment zone bubble.

Think about what the scout rule is supposed to represent, a scout is someone who moves forward, ahead of the main force to supply information, so they're going to be further into the field than the rest of the battle force.

[Xenith]

Units that infiltrate/scout are not allowed to charge first [player] turn.

As your units didn't scout, you were free to charge.

Note that this is first player turn only. Your opponent scouted and wetnsecond, so he would have been free to charge you in his turn (player turn 2)

[rich_clean_jammies]

Because thats how it works, I see what you're saying, but, it says to redeploy anywhere within 6 inches (for infantry), this in effect makes a new deployment zone bubble.

Think about what the scout rule is supposed to represent, a scout is someone who moves forward, ahead of the main force to supply information, so they're going to be further into the field than the rest of the battle force.

What it represents and how the game dynamic work unfortunately don't always have a direct correlation.
How do you play mechanics that let you redeploy forces? For instance I think it is Eldrad which lets D3 units redeploy, do you allow these to be redeployed anywhere?
I see why you are playing it like this. I would be interested in seeing how many others play it that way.

[Sly]

What it represents and how the game dynamic work unfortunately don't always have a direct correlation.
How do you play mechanics that let you redeploy forces? For instance I think it is Eldrad which lets D3 units redeploy, do you allow these to be redeployed anywhere?
I see why you are playing it like this. I would be interested in seeing how many others play it that way.

As I understand it, the Scout move allows you to redeploy outside of your Deployment Zone.
The Deployment Zone restricts you to placing units inside it when deploying them. It does not mention any restrictions when REDEPLOYING, nor does the Scout rule itself.

It could be taken, due to the meaning of the word in English, that a redeployment would follow ALL of the rules for a deployment. But it could also be taken otherwise. The rules themselves do not state that a redeployment is equivalent or the same as a deployment, so it would seem that, according to the rules, a redeployment follows its own rules.

Those other rules would be the generic rules of placing models (such as some models cannot be placed in/on Impassable Terrain), and the specific rules in the Scout rule that tell you how far away from its original location and from enemy models can a model be redeployed. Oh, and the usual unit coherency rules. Otherwise, a redeployment is not subject to any limitations.

[rich_clean_jammies]

As I understand it, the Scout move allows you to redeploy outside of your Deployment Zone.
The Deployment Zone restricts you to placing units inside it when deploying them. It does not mention any restrictions when REDEPLOYING, nor does the Scout rule itself.

It could be taken, due to the meaning of the word in English, that a redeployment would follow ALL of the rules for a deployment. But it could also be taken otherwise. The rules themselves do not state that a redeployment is equivalent or the same as a deployment, so it would seem that, according to the rules, a redeployment follows its own rules.

Those other rules would be the generic rules of placing models (such as some models cannot be placed in/on Impassable Terrain), and the specific rules in the Scout rule that tell you how far away from its original location and from enemy models can a model be redeployed. Oh, and the usual unit coherency rules. Otherwise, a redeployment is not subject to any limitations.

I follow the logic, but I have to disagree. The suffix 're' indicates (to me) that you do the 'deployment' again, this is why it isn't defined. The 'deployment' is clearly defined in the book, adding the suffix 're' doesn't change what is there. If it did, it would have its own entry. It is like a reroll. A reroll is different from a roll only because it is defined as such in the rulebook (a reroll can never be rerolled again etc.) If you have a twin linked blast weapon and you are told to reroll the dice and remeasure the scatter, the rules for scattering haven't suddenly changed, you understand the rules to scatter the blast and you do it, you don't start halving the scatter distance or not reducing the BS because you already know how those mechanics work.
We can't work under the assumption that a redeployment lets you place models anywhere legal because then any of the special rules which allow for a redeployment that do not mention the 12" bubble that scout has would allow you to place your models ANYWHERE on the board. Sure you couldn't charge, but CSM guys could reposition up to 3 flamer squads 1" away from your aeigis defense line and ROAST your IG squad, or put some AP3 templates down right next to a dev squad in cover and just instantly remove them turn 1. Seem like too big of a leap and too much of a potential rabbit hole to fall down if you start redeploying outside of your deployment zone.

BTW thanks for the sensible, polite and well worded responses. I could very well be wrong and I play a Ravenwing army so it would be much better if I could do that, but I just don't read the rules in that fashion.

[DWest]

I would argue that Scout lets you move outside of your standard deployment zone; while the Scout rule says "redeploy", the Infiltrate rule also says "deploy" in regards to putting the unit on the board, and both have rules stating you must remain a certain distance away from the enemy. Since Infiltrate is designed to start outside your standard deployment zone, it is a reasonable extrapolation that Scout can also leave your original deployment zone. Furthermore, take the Dark Eldar HQ Lady Malys as a counter-example: In the errata for her Precognisant power, it specifically states that units "redeployed this way . . . may not be deployed outside of the Dark Eldar deployment zone." There is no such similar restriction in either the BRB or Errata for the Scout rule.

[Nabterayl]

How do you play mechanics that let you redeploy forces? For instance I think it is Eldrad which lets D3 units redeploy, do you allow these to be redeployed anywhere?
Well no, of course not. Eldrad's Divination rule states, "No unit may be moved outside of its deployment zone."

But Scouts can certainly use their Scout redeployment to move anywhere. Scouts says:


If the unit is Infantry Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Crearure, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position (emphasis added).

Surely you don't read "redeploy anywhere" to mean "anywhere except outside its deployment zone." I think the meaning of "anywhere" is quite clear.

[OrksOrksOrks]

What it represents and how the game dynamic work unfortunately don't always have a direct correlation.
How do you play mechanics that let you redeploy forces? For instance I think it is Eldrad which lets D3 units redeploy, do you allow these to be redeployed anywhere?
I see why you are playing it like this. I would be interested in seeing how many others play it that way.

Everyone plays it like that and what it represents its core to the rule and how its played, this is a narrative game, thats part of the rules, so representing whats happening in the game world is what the rules for, anyway, as Nabterayl pointed out, the word Anywhere is used in the rules wording, that seems to clear that up.

Sometimes you rules-lawyer types seem to miss the entire point of this hobby.

[rich_clean_jammies]

Everyone plays it like that and what it represents its core to the rule and how its played, this is a narrative game, thats part of the rules, so representing whats happening in the game world is what the rules for, anyway, as Nabterayl pointed out, the word Anywhere is used in the rules wording, that seems to clear that up.

Sometimes you rules-lawyer types seem to miss the entire point of this hobby.

I don't think playing it my way is rules-lawyering at all - as I said, I play a ravenwing army and by my reading, that is how I read the rule and play it. If there is ever any ambiguity I always play it in the fashion which limits my army the most OR the way that my opponent wants to play it. As I said earlier, I see the argument there and if I ever played you and you wanted to play like that I would be ok with it. Otherwise I will keep playing it my way, it still gives you loads of tactical things that you can do and it is just as interesting IMO.

In terms of the wording 'ANYWHERE' I don't see how that is more important than defining it as a deployment. Does ANYWHERE mean that I can then deploy them off the table and into reserves again? Off the table is a place and fits under ANYWHERE. Can I deploy them into lethal terrain? Regardless of how you look at it, there will be rules specified in the Deployment rules that you will have to use for this redeployment. I don't see how you can ignore some of the restrictions without ignoring other ones.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think playing it my way is rules-lawyering at all - as I said, I play a ravenwing army and by my reading, that is how I read the rule and play it. If there is ever any ambiguity I always play it in the fashion which limits my army the most OR the way that my opponent wants to play it. As I said earlier, I see the argument there and if I ever played you and you wanted to play like that I would be ok with it. Otherwise I will keep playing it my way, it still gives you loads of tactical things that you can do and it is just as interesting IMO.
I don't think that "rules lawyering" is a helpful term to throw about. In my experience, "rules lawyering" is generally shorthand for "I don't like your read of the text and I refuse to believe that anybody could possibly read it your way in good faith, so you are clearly stupid, a jerk, or both." Most sincerely, thank you for being reasonable in your tone about this.


In terms of the wording 'ANYWHERE' I don't see how that is more important than defining it as a deployment. Does ANYWHERE mean that I can then deploy them off the table and into reserves again? Off the table is a place and fits under ANYWHERE. Can I deploy them into lethal terrain? Regardless of how you look at it, there will be rules specified in the Deployment rules that you will have to use for this redeployment. I don't see how you can ignore some of the restrictions without ignoring other ones.
I don't propose to ignore restrictions, but I do propose to give all the words effect. I was always taught in law school, as I'm sure you were too, that when one is trying to decide which of two possible interpretations of a rule is better, preference should be given to the interpretation that reduces the least amount of the rule to meaningless surplusage. In other words, if we have one interpretation that says, "The meaning of the rule would not change if 'anywhere' were deleted" and one interpretation that says, "The meaning of the rule would change if 'anywhere' were deleted," we should prefer the second. I propose that the meaning of "anywhere" is precisely to permit redeployment outside of one's deployment zone. You appear to propose that, since one cannot make any sort of deployment outside one's deployment zone, the inclusion of "anywhere" in the Scouts rule has no effect.

Then too, the rules describe units with Infiltrate and Scout doing things that presuppose those units are able to redeploy outside of their deployment zone. Consider page 121, which states, "If a fortification is deployed within 12" of the central line, only friendly units that have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule can (re)deploy within the building, regardless of the proximity of enemy units." A building within 12" of the central line is by definition outside of the deployment zone ("A player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line," same page). Thus, we see that units with Infiltrate and Scout can redeploy outside the deployment zone, at least in the case of a friendly fortification being placed outside the deployment zone.

Consider also the wording of Infiltrate on page 38, which states, "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units. Infiltrators can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit." We can see from the diction here that that making use of Infiltrate is a form of deployment, so it is not true that one can never deploy to a place on the board outside of one's deployment zone. Indeed, the 12" restriction (and the later 18" restriction) would be surplusage if we read Infiltrate to require that one deploy infiltrators only within one's deployment zone, since one's deployment zone is always, by definition, more than 24" away from the enemy's.

Consider also the following from Scouts, on page 41: "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first turn." Since each deployment zone is, by definition, more than 12" away from the central line, it follows that no two points within a deployment zone can be within 24" of each other. As a rule, no unit can charge more than 12" after moving more than 12", meaning it is not possible to charge in the first turn from within a deployment zone. Unless Scouts means "anywhere entirely within 6"" when it says "anywhere entirely within 6"," what meaning would the charge restriction have? Do you propose that they included that restriction to prevent charges by Scouts in open-topped or assault vehicle dedicated transports from charging on the first turn, or cavalry or jump units that are given Scouts?

Finally, consider the wording of Princeps of Deceit from page 111: "During deployment, before deploying Infiltrators and before Scouts redeploy, you can do one of the following: redeploy one of your units within 3D6" of its
current position, or redeploy 3 of your units, each within D6" of their current positions (roll separately for each). These redeployments cannot take a unit out of its deployment zone." If it were true that a redeployment cannot take a unit out of its deployment zone by definition, the final sentence would be surplusage. As it is, that caveat is conspicuously missing from Scouts. You appear to propose that we should assume that the rules felt it necessary merely to repeat themselves in Princeps of Deceipt - though not in Scouts - rather than assume that the difference in wording means something.

You propose that we "look for wording which allows you to deploy outside of your deployment zone," which I certainly agree with. You don't appear to find that authorization in the phrase "redeploy anywhere entirely within 6"," apparently on the basis that you don't know whether "off the table" can be within a measurable distance of a given point on the table - a question, to be sure, but not one that should cause us simply to throw up our hands and despair of ever understanding what else is meant by "anywhere." So, with respect, it appears to me that you propose that we:

May as well ignore the word "anywhere" in Scouts, as the rule would conform to your interpretation even if it were not printed,
Read page 121 as not probative of whether, as you propose, deployment can never occur outside one's deployment zone,
Disregard the fact that Infiltrators are said to deploy outside their deployment zone, when considering what it means to "deploy,"
Read the first turn charge prohibition in Scouts as intended for a situation that, to my knowledge, can only be achieved by Imperial Guard players with Ursarkar Creed in their army, and
Disregard the differences in wording between Princeps of Deceit and Scouts as probative of the meaning of "anywhere" or what it means to deploy.
I don't mean to suggest that you are being willfully blind, and I commend you for taking the interpretation least favorable to you as a general principle. In this case, though, the interpretation least favorable to you seems like it has five serious flaws that ought to prevent anybody from taking it, regardless of whether the result is favorable or unfavorable.

[Power Klawz]

Man...

Scouts can redeploy outside the deployment zone. This is a thing, it has been a thing since scouts have been a thing.

Anywhere means anywhere on the table... because anything off the table has no in game spacial relationship to anything on the table. The world ends at the table edge.

The spirit of the rule is clear. This is not that hard of a question.

[rich_clean_jammies]

stuff

Thanks for the great response. It is several leaps around, but makes sense and is appreciated.
I don't mean to get into anything resembling an argument. I now believe that you are correct from your logic, I think I was just confused due to poor wording which I will try to explain in regards to your points.

1. Agreed, 'anywhere' doesn't lend enough to either side
2. pg 121 'within 12" of the center line' Remember the diagram on page 4, the space marine is 'within 5" of the trukk' which means that a fortification butted flush along the edge of deployment qualifies for the 'within 12" of the center line' this just means that scouts can move into buildings during a redeploy which brings them closer than normally allowed to an infiltrating unit. In other words, I place my army on one edge and you infiltrate a unit right behind a building, well then I can redeploy my unit into that building, even though you are right against it.
3. Agreed, the rules to deploy an infiltrator are clearly written and it is clearly given as an exception to the normal deployment - this is in fact one of the main reasons I read it the other way, they so clearly defined the exception in this instance that to not include it with the scouts seems intentional.
4. In terms of the first turn charge, this can happen even without scouts if your opponent infiltrates really close to you - this just negates a scout move from getting that bounce towards a unit. Regardless with a potential 18" scout move for normal troops, it is easy to charge a unit which is potentially only 12" away.
5. I like this one and actually failed to consider it totally.

Regardless, thanks for the kind and well considered response. At the end of the day I do find the rule confusing and I don't intend on doing it, I just read everything very literally and to me, without the extra digging that is how it literally reads. I just really wish they could have added a quick sentence just stating clearly that they could go outside of the deployment zone.

[Shotgun Justice]

May as well ignore the word "anywhere" in Scouts, as the rule would conform to your interpretation even if it were not printed,
Read page 121 as not probative of whether, as you propose, deployment can never occur outside one's deployment zone,
Disregard the fact that Infiltrators are said to deploy outside their deployment zone, when considering what it means to "deploy,"
Read the first turn charge prohibition in Scouts as intended for a situation that, to my knowledge, can only be achieved by Imperial Guard players with Ursarkar Creed in their army, and
Disregard the differences in wording between Princeps of Deceit and Scouts as probative of the meaning of "anywhere" or what it means to deploy.
I don't mean to suggest that you are being willfully blind, and I commend you for taking the interpretation least favorable to you as a general principle. In this case, though, the interpretation least favorable to you seems like it has five serious flaws that ought to prevent anybody from taking it, regardless of whether the result is favorable or unfavorable.

Can I just commend Nabterayl on this post, as an in-depth, well sourced and coherently reasoned argument. I enjoyed reading it.

[Lord Krungharr]

The Scout rule says: "...If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or Monstrous Creature, each model can redploys anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position. During this redeployment, Scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy unit.

Anywhere means anywhere, there is no limitation upon the Scouts being in the deployment zone after the Scout move.

[Magpie]

Scout moves are very much allowed outside the Deployment Zone as page 121 talks about a direct permission to actually deploy scout and infiltrators outside the deployment zone from the get go by allowing them to be the only ones to set up inside a friendly fort that is outside the deployment zone.

There is a further allowance that permits scout units to redeploy into unoccupied enemy fortifications and as fortifications can only be in you table half that MUST mean that Scouts can redeploy outside their deployment zone.

[Daemonette666]

I agree that units with scout and infiltrate can redeploy outside your deployment area, however the section on page 121 you mentioned states that :

If a fortification is deployed within 12" of the central line, only friendly units that have the infiltrate or scout special rules can (re)deploy within the building , regardless of of the proximity to enemy units.

It then says:

Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification nor can they use pre-game abilities (like scout redeployment) to embark in enemy fortifications before the first turn begins.

This means that the enemy can stop your units from embarking in one of your own fortifications if they are within 12" of it, unless the unit has special pre-game abilities like the scout rule. Your units can never be set up as part of their re-deployment in enemy fortifications before 1st turn begins.

[Magpie]

Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification nor can they use pre-game abilities (like scout redeployment) to embark in enemy fortifications before the first turn begins.

This means that the enemy can stop your units from embarking in one of your own fortifications if they are within 12" of it, unless the unit has special pre-game abilities like the scout rule. Your units can never be set up as part of their re-deployment in enemy fortifications before 1st turn begins.

Yes my bad, I read it wrong.
However enemy forts only stop your deploying if they are occupied at the time of re-deployment,