upper levels of ruins

[Forlornhope15]

do the upper levels of ruins automatically confer a 4+ cover save from standing in them? the book says that if ruins have a base its area terrain but it doesnt specify if you have to be 25% obscured to get a cover save on the upper levels.

so do you get no cover save if you are standing on the top floor of a ruin and in clear line of sight?

in the example below would the guardsman get a cover save if you were shooting from the angle of the viewer?

3746

[JMichael]

The upper level of the ruins are not area terrain. They only confer a save if the model is actually obscured by terrain from the attacking model just like any other terrain.
Same if on the bottom without a base.

[Nabterayl]

The upper level of the ruins are not area terrain. They only confer a save if the model is actually obscured by terrain from the attacking model just like any other terrain.
Same if on the bottom without a base.
Just so.

[sangrail777]

I would say the model gets a save.
Reasons:
Ruins give 4+ cover save
Model is touching ruins (my group chooses to inturpret the rules to mean if your touching - your good)
You can only build terrain certain ways for the models, so we are more generous with what a terrain model represents.
for sportsmanship sake (not to mention someday my soldier will be in the same spot) I think it's fine
rules to support this - cover rules and ruins rules

(overall I've never concerned myself with that one cover save an opponent makes to stay alive, if I want an oppoents model dead I just use weight of fire)

[Nabterayl]

The thing about ruins giving a 4+ save for some reason seems to confuse people. Don't forget that the wording used is exactly the same as razor wire giving a 6+ save, hills giving a 5+ save, trenches giving a 4+ save, and so on. All that means is that if you are 25% obscured by a razor wire/hill/trench, you get a 6+/5+/4+ cover save. The fact that hills give a 5+ cover save doesn't mean that you get it from simply touching the hill; you have to actually be 25% hidden behind it. If you're in base contact with a hill but somebody shoots you from behind, where the hill is not between the two of you, you don't get a 5+ cover save on the grounds that "hills give a 5+ save" :P

[Wolfshade]

This does highlight the importance of going through the terrain and explaining what cover if any is granted before deployment, that way you don't move in cover and expect an X save whereas your opponent thinks it is Y.

[Necron2.0]

I would say the model gets a save.
Reasons:
Ruins give 4+ cover save
Model is touching ruins (my group chooses to inturpret the rules to mean if your touching - your good)
You can only build terrain certain ways for the models, so we are more generous with what a terrain model represents.
for sportsmanship sake (not to mention someday my soldier will be in the same spot) I think it's fine
rules to support this - cover rules and ruins rules

(overall I've never concerned myself with that one cover save an opponent makes to stay alive, if I want an oppoents model dead I just use weight of fire)

I might shave that 4+ to a 5+, but otherwise (as a house rule) there's nothing at all wrong with this. It falls completely under the guidance of "The Most Important Rule". In my gaming group, depending on whose playing and whose house we're at, we sometimes use a piece of felt to represent an entire forest. In those circumstances Line-of-Sight doesn't make much sense.

[mathhammer]

The exact wording is the ruins themselves are area terrain thus granting a 5+ cover save.
If your obscured from the firer (25% or more) BY the ruin (wall floor etc) then the cover save is a 4+.

[Forlornhope15]

The exact wording is the ruins themselves are area terrain thus granting a 5+ cover save.
If your obscured from the firer (25% or more) BY the ruin (wall floor etc) then the cover save is a 4+.

That only applies to the base if its modeled, otherwise it's open ground

So you all are saying upper levels confer no save unless you are obscured? That seems silly since you still have to take a difficult terrain test to move , if its open ground there should be no test

[Wolfshade]

It is all about line of sight, if you are sufficently obscured you get a cover save, the type of save determined by the type of terrain you are in.

Going through a marsh you have to take difficult terrain tests, but that does not confer a cover save. So it isn't counter-intuitive

[mathhammer]

That only applies to the base if its modeled, otherwise it's open ground

So you all are saying upper levels confer no save unless you are obscured? That seems silly since you still have to take a difficult terrain test to move , if its open ground there should be no test

from memory...

No in the section under area terrain the floors themselves are classified as area terrain and that is what triggers the difficult terrain test and grants the +5 cover save. There is also the rule about going to ground granting a +2 to the cover save.

It is true if there is no base modeled then the ground floor is what ever the table top is for terrain, but there is a line in the area terrain section talking about the floors or levels.

(GW needs to release a pdf form of that rule book soonish.)

[Nabterayl]

The floors themselves are classified as difficult terrain, period. The base of a ruin that is modeled on a base is classified as area terrain, but not the floors of a ruin. Although I rarely see other people use it, difficult terrain that grants no cover is a staple of wargaming both with miniatures and counters on printed hex maps. Marshes, beach sand, mud, floors of unknown structural integrity, floors covered with children's toys ... all will slow you down without providing any cover. That's why the rules give people the option to have difficult terrain that is not area terrain. You and I know that the floor of that blasted out building can hold several times the guardsman's weight; we glued it together. But for all he knows, an incautious step will cause him to plunge right through the floor. I mean, look at that thing. Does that building look safe to you? =P

[Forlornhope15]

So does everyone but me play it that ruins don't confer saves unless Los is blocked

Seems like its not open ground for a reason

[Nabterayl]

Well yeah, it's a ruin. Gotta be careful traveling through seriously damaged structures. The fact that the floor could collapse on you if you step wrong or that the door jamb might not support your weight doesn't mean that the floor is covered with debris that you can hide in. The rules assume that models are slowed by the structure's inherent and unknown instability, but that the floors are only covered in debris you can take cover behind if the floor is actually modeled that way.

It's ... probably obvious, but the rules for ruins are not the rules for buildings that we can see into. They're the rules for buildings that have taken serious damage and could give way at any moment. The way you navigate a structure that is built to be open is different than the way you navigate a building that is only open because it's taken a pounding. That's why battlements, for instance, are open terrain but the top floor of a ruin being used like a battlement is not.

[Warp dust]

The thing about ruins giving a 4+ save for some reason seems to confuse people. Don't forget that the wording used is exactly the same as razor wire giving a 6+ save, hills giving a 5+ save, trenches giving a 4+ save, and so on. All that means is that if you are 25% obscured by a razor wire/hill/trench, you get a 6+/5+/4+ cover save. The fact that hills give a 5+ cover save doesn't mean that you get it from simply touching the hill; you have to actually be 25% hidden behind it. If you're in base contact with a hill but somebody shoots you from behind, where the hill is not between the two of you, you don't get a 5+ cover save on the grounds that "hills give a 5+ save" :P

Page 91: area terrain is difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured.

[Wolfshade]

All Area Terrain is Difficult Terrain. It does not commute, not all Difficult Terrain is Area Terrain.

[mathhammer]

After rereading the ruins section, the description of them clearly states that all ruins are area terrain that give a +4 cover save, the base is considered the same unless it is not modeled then it's open terrain. (this is in the first paragraph on ruins)

The 25% rule is for models not in the area terrain (or vehicles) and your tracing the line of sight through the ruin to the target.

A question about 25% obscure for shooting through a unit at a unit is still up for grabs though?

[Nabterayl]

After rereading the ruins section, the description of them clearly states that all ruins are area terrain that give a +4 cover save, the base is considered the same unless it is not modeled then it's open terrain. (this is in the first paragraph on ruins)
Can you highlight what you're seeing? What I see is this:


All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save. Players can also agree at the beginning of the game to treat some ruins as dangerous terrain as well, representing unstable structures on the verge of collapsing or that are still on fire. Of course, the nature of ruins means that the boundaries of the terrain can be somewhat indistinct. The best way to counter this is to ensure that both players are clear on the boundaries of each ruin before the game begins.

Ruins with Bases
A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain.

All I see is that all ruins are difficult terrain. This is not the same thing as area terrain, as we can see on page 91: "Area terrain is always difficult terrain." It does not follow, though, that difficult terrain is always area terrain. Rectangles and squares.

[mathhammer]

Using your quote:

All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save.

this is the +4 cover save for the entire ruins.

The second quote is only referring to those ruins without bases and doesn't effect the upper floors of either style of ruin.

I will try to rework the reasoning i thought of when i get home tonight (at work no rule book and GW hates android).

[Nabterayl]

Using your quote:

All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save.
When you get around to composing:

The text you're highlighting reads, in relevant part, "All ruins ... provide a 4+ cover save." There's nothing there that implies the difficult terrain itself provides a 4+ cover save. How is this distinct from page 18, where we are told that "The type of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind?" According to page 18, "Purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ cover save" (though we have several specific exceptions in Aegis lines and bastion ramparts). Would you thus contend that simply standing upon a fortification confers a 3+ cover save, regardless of how obscured the model in question is? The wording is exactly the same.

[mathhammer]

I went back over the rules again last night.

And there is no support for the upper level of ruins
-) Being area terrain
-) providing a +4 cover save unless obscured.

The section in ruins lacks the wording that is seen in the forest or marsh section where it clearly states they are area terrain.
The area terrain section does list ruins but never refers to the upper levels.
The section about the base provides for the mention in area terrain section.

Personally I would discuss it with my opponent but by RAW it says no.

(guess I stand corrected from before, rereading the rules like a magic card is sooo much fun.)
(anyone sent this to GW rules department yet?)

[Idolator]

It's a simple question.

Are ruins listed as area terrain? YES Pg 91 :Trees, rocks, ruins or whatever is appropriate for the kind of area terrain you are representing.
Therefore the entirety of the ruin is area terrain.

Are the secondary, tertiary, etc. floors also part of the ruin? YES (unless you are playing with some building where part is an intact structure and part are indeed ruin)

What cover save is granted by area terrain? 5+

What cover save would a totaly visible model that is on the second floor of area terrain (ruins) receive? 5+
What cover save would a 25% or more obscured model, that is on the second floor of area terrain (ruins) receive? 4+

[Nabterayl]

It's a simple question.

Are ruins listed as area terrain? YES Pg 91 :Trees, rocks, ruins or whatever is appropriate for the kind of area terrain you are representing.
Therefore the entirety of the ruin is area terrain.
Can you quote the actual language you're looking at? I'm having a hard time seeing anything on page 91 that defines the entirety of a ruin as area terrain, or that expands upon page 98's definition of the base of a based ruin as area terrain ("A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain. ... If the ruin has not been mounted on a base, then the ground floor is not counted as either difficult terrain or area terrain.")

[Daemonette666]

At the top of page 98 under the heading RUINS: THE BASICS. it clearly states in bold " All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save". This can be interpreted by players that only of the model has 25% cover, but that is not mentioned in that section of text. It does go on to specifically mention that the ruins without a base treat the ground floor as neither area terrain or difficult terrain.

This means you could assume the upper floors provided 4+ cover save, while the ground floor did not unless you were shooting through the windows and the models had 25% cover from the shooting. My gaming group treat it this way, and make sure we use bases for our ruins.

[Nabterayl]

At the top of page 98 under the heading RUINS: THE BASICS. it clearly states in bold " All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save". This can be interpreted by players that only of the model has 25% cover, but that is not mentioned in that section of text.
Well ... not on page 98, no. It's on page 18:


The type of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind. For example, a soft obstacle (like a bloodthorn hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers a 5+ cover save. Purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ cover save and most other things confer 4+ or 5+ cover save.

Further examples can be found in the Cover chart below and in the Battlefield Terrain section (see page 90).

COVER CHART
Cover Type------------------------------Save
Razor wire-------------------------------6+
Forests and area terrain------------------5+
Ruins, ruined fortifications and trenches---4+
Fortifications----------------------------3+

[mathhammer]

what finally swung it for me is this comparison
" All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save".
verses
"Forest are always at least difficult terrain. They are usually also area terrain."

At no point do the rules for ruins you the term area terrain in a default sense, only when clarifying the ground floor. If the meant for ruins to be area terrain I would expect:

(not a quote)All ruins are difficult and area terrain and provide a 4+ cover save(not a quote)
or
(not a quote)All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save and a +5 area terrain save(not a quote)

This would be RAW as for RAI I have no idea, same for template and blast allocating wounds in ruins. GW needs to fix some text.

[Idolator]

Can you quote the actual language you're looking at? I'm having a hard time seeing anything on page 91 that defines the entirety of a ruin as area terrain, or that expands upon page 98's definition of the base of a based ruin as area terrain ("A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain. ... If the ruin has not been mounted on a base, then the ground floor is not counted as either difficult terrain or area terrain.")

The exact quote from the book. Pg 91 second paragraph. The "trees, rocks, ruins, or whatever is appropriate" sentence.

It doesn't say the gound floor of ruins. It's the whole thing. The entire peice of terrain is terrain. It is the ruin itself that represents the area terrain. It is similar to having a rock or pile of rocks on the table. Just because the model is standing on top of a rock doesn't mean that it's no longer in area terrain. You can't properly model a ruin, or any area terrain for that matter, and still have it be usable as a playing surface. That's why we have area terrain.

I really don't understand the argument that part of a terrain piece isn't to beconsidered part of the terrain.

The one argument that truly can be made here is what cover save is granted. Is it 4+ of 5+? This is deffinetely debateable.

Regular area terrain give a 5+. Ruins as established on pg 91 refer to ruins as area terrain.

The bolded rule on page 98 states two things: 1: All ruins are difficult terrain. 2: All ruins provide a 4+ cover save.
That rule is specific to ruins and would be used instead of the more general rule for area terrain.

Even if you decided that parts of a ruin weren't area terrain. The rules specificaly inform you that a ruin provides a
4+ cover. That wold be if you are behind it or in it, just like any other bit of terrain.

That point is moot, because ruins are listed as area terrain as well. Just with a better cover save than other area terrain.

[Tynskel]

+ 1 internetz

[Idolator]

+ 1 internetz

I'm not exactly sure what that means.

[Tynskel]

it just means you did good.
more to the point, I think you may have ended the argument.