So......Helbrecht.......

[CarcharodonAstra]

After re-reading Helsreach for the 50 billionth time, i've came to the conclusion that Helbrecht is a bit of a dick..


Any one agree? Or am i just silly?

[Tyrendian]

just him? Grimaldus is no better... that's kinda the point with Black Templars though - they don't care about much besides crusadin'...

[phoenix01]

Yes, the Black Templars have mostly lost touch with who they are supposed to be protecting: humanity. That's what Grimaldus learns by the end of Helsreach, that it isn't the might of the Black Templars or the Adeptus Astartes that ultimately decides the fate of the Imperium of Man, but the simple, common, human guardsman, unsung and unheralded. That, without humanity, there is no Imperium of Man. So while the rest of the Black Templars are all about crusading and looking down their noses at mortal humans, Grimaldus will remember those who stood with him at Helsreach and remember WHY they crusade.

[Anggul]

Pretty much everyone in the Imperium is a dick. Pretty much all space marines are dicks. It just so happens that the Black Templars are more outward with their dickishness.

Too much of the more recent space marine stuff has tried to portray them as good and noble, when pretty much everything proves that they, like the Imperium, are dicks and the galaxy would be far better off without them.

[Nabterayl]

There is a certain nobility to space marines. A man who was chosen for mandatory lifetime military service without leave at the age of 10 and doesn't go insane but volunteers, as an adult, continue in that life has a certain nobility to him. There is nobility to placing one's life between one's home and the war's desolation no matter why you do it. One can have noble aspects and still take children from their mothers for mandatory lifetime military service without leave.

That said, I agree - if it isn't an insufferable prick, it isn't a space marine.

[Crazy Jedi]

There is a certain nobility to space marines. A man who was chosen for mandatory lifetime military service without leave at the age of 10 and doesn't go insane but volunteers, as an adult, continue in that life has a certain nobility to him. There is nobility to placing one's life between one's home and the war's desolation no matter why you do it. One can have noble aspects and still take children from their mothers for mandatory lifetime military service without leave.

That said, I agree - if it isn't an insufferable prick, it isn't a space marine.

Beautiful. Wasn't there fluff about the Black Templars being quite humble? I never read much about them, but I swear on another board someone was mentioning a story wherein BT actually bowed to some Guardsmen.

[Bob821]

That bit when the salamanders sargent ask for them to carry out some sort of ritual with Grimaldus and he tells them to poke off really sums it up for me... Total tools. The salamanders rocked up and dragged them out the poop not to mention the Salamanders being first founding! Stuck up templers should show a little respect.

[nathaneal246]

Helsreach is the best space marines battles books to be released so far in my opinion, and it shows off the BT perfectly, just the way they should be, all the SM chapters have different outlooks, like the salamanders love to protect humanity etc which I recall causes friction between the salamanders and grimaldus because some BT die because of their love for the weak! the BT just want to destroy anything that isn't imperial in the name of the emperor, I don't think helbrecht is a prick the BT just have their own doctrine which clashes with others but you could say that about any chapter.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The Salamanders just wasted an opportunity to cut the head off the warlord leading the assault on Helsreach, Grimaldus was pissed. Earlier in the novel Grimaldus inclines his head to Barasath for exemplary service, expresses admiration for the Guardsmen on the walls in spite of their weaknesses, and kneels before Kurov, he clearly isn't a dick. He's a knight.


Was Eddard Stark a dick for killing the guy running from the White Walkers? Was Batman a dick for knocking out police officers? Iron Man for not giving the government the suit?

They are freaking heroes. Appreciate them, don't try to understand them.

[bfmusashi]

The Salamanders just wasted an opportunity to cut the head off the warlord leading the assault on Helsreach, Grimaldus was pissed. Earlier in the novel Grimaldus inclines his head to Barasath for exemplary service, expresses admiration for the Guardsmen on the walls in spite of their weaknesses, and kneels before Kurov, he clearly isn't a dick. He's a knight.


Was Eddard Stark a dick for killing the guy running from the White Walkers? Was Batman a dick for knocking out police officers? Iron Man for not giving the government the suit?

They are freaking heroes. Appreciate them, don't try to understand them.
Yes, Iron Man was a dick for not surrendering a weapon funded by the tax payers. :p

[Nabterayl]

Being a dick is not incompatible with being a hero as I understand either term. In my opinion, one of the most delightful things about space marines (indeed, most of 40K) is the extent to which they are completely both dicks and heroes.

[Insert_nickname_here]

Space Marines are dicks! And the Imperial guard are *******! And all the Xenos are arseholes!

(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist...)

[Bob821]

Space Marines are dicks! And the Imperial guard are *******! And all the Xenos are arseholes!

(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist...)

Don't forget those s**ty Sisters of Battle!

I think the truth of the matter is as Nabterayl put it you can be both a dick and a hero.

I'd also add what one person perceives and 'dick' behaviour another will see as perfectly reasonable.

Just look at Aaron Dembski-Bowden characters in the Night Lord's books... Total heros ... Women and children murdering dicks!

[Wildeybeast]

Being a dick is not incompatible with being a hero as I understand either term. In my opinion, one of the most delightful things about space marines (indeed, most of 40K) is the extent to which they are completely both dicks and heroes.

"You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed."

[Katharon]

I can't remember what book it is, but there is a scene where a regular human is contemplating the Space Marines and mourns for them -- for in their process of becoming Astartes they give up their Humanity. It's a sacrifice that is subsumed beneath the attention of most Space Marines, for they consider the ascension to a full Astartes as being the penultimate moment of their lives -- and that by being the genetic inheritor of the Emperor they are rightfully above normal humans around them.

It makes for an interesting psychological dynamic that I'd like to see explored...darn, now I'm going to have to start writing some more.