Choosing my first army...

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Ok guys, thanks for all the warm welcomes so far. I was particularly fond of the dancing pony.

Anyways, this is my first foray into 40K so I'm going through the process of selecting my first army. First and foremost, I have narrowed it down to 4 choices based on the way the models look: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Tau, and Necrons.

I think I would be happy starting off with any of these. However, right now I don't have access to the codexes so it's tricky getting an idea how these armies play from batreps on youtube and whatnot.

So what play styles would I be looking at with these armies? For instance, is there really any difference between Space Marines and Blood angels? Is the only difference theme? Also, I read somewhere that Necrons are considered a "beginners" army which gives me the idea that people don't really respect them. But I read that on a forum post that was like 4 years old so I have no idea how relevant that statement would be today.

I suppose most important to me is that an army is capable of having multiple play styles that can be successful. I will not be playing competitively for now, but I will be joining a circle of very seasoned players, so I want to be able to hold my own. If the most flexible armies (with regard to play style) are not on my list, what are they?...because I will consider adding them.

Shed some light on one or more of these factions and I will appreciate you until the end of time. Thanks in advance!

[gossipmeng]

Spacemarines: Very well rounded and durable. They are considered a good choice for beginners because you can make bad tactical decisions/build a non-competitive army and you will still be able to survive a few turns even if you don't win. One important thing to remember about marines is that they aren't beginner armies.... rather beginner friendly. Once you get more comfortable with 40k you'll be able to customize your army and make more complex tactical decisions.

Blood Angels: Very similar to regular spacemarines except they are more close combat oriented. Since you are completely new to 40k.... there won't be too much of a meaning full difference between these and standard marines. Blood angels get to use assault marines as troops and tend to have more reliable dreadnoughts. If you like red marines, want to use lots of assault marines and would like to have reliable close combat dreadnought then I would pick blood angels over standard marines.

Tau: These are my personal choice so I am going to try and leave bias out. They have a new codex coming out in a month are 2 according to rumours so we aren't sure how much their play style will change. However their main characteristic is to focus solely on ranged combat and maneuver often to avoid getting caught in close combat. Most competitive armies will field many crisis battlesuits, broadside suits, and hammerhead tanks. You may want to wait a few weeks to see what their update has in store for them before you make a decision. Tau aren't the easiest to pick up as a new player, but the learning curve only takes a few games to overcome.

Necrons: I wouldn't say these are for beginners. Like the space marines, their troops are durable but they do quite poorly in close combat. They are mostly a shooting army unless you tailor you force around CC units like wraiths. They have some of the most powerful flyers in the game.

It is really difficult to give an army breakdown for 40k that doesn't seem very generic. Players that base their army choices off what is easiest or most powerful will often be disappointed. Take these 4 choices and look around on the forums and google at army lists/full army photos. I'm not sure if this is okay to post, but : http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki has great information on all the races in 40k.

Players/hobbyists who base their choice on appearance and fluff (background) generally enjoy their army much more and stick with it.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Peronally, I'd look at those armies and see which one really appeals to you, what army do you want to collect? Whats the story you want to tell with your army?
You'll be investing a lot of time and money into them, so its best to make sure you enjoy painting them and the fluff around them

[Rissan4ever]

Space Marines and Blood Angels are very similar, except that Blood Angels focus more on assault and vanilla Marines are more well-rounded. If you want a variety of play styles available from a single Codex, I'd take Space Marines over Blood Angels. However, everybody and their mother plays Space Marines. It would be nice to see something else on the table.

I have yet to play against Necrons since their new Codex came out, so I don't really know how they play now. What I've heard is that they focus on synergy between the various Tomb Lords and Crypteks to buff up the other units and make them more deadly. So, if you want a tricksy combo army, go for Necrons.

The Tau perform best with shooty lists. Whether it's a static gunline, Hammerheads, or lots of Devilfish and Crisis Suits whizzing about, they're good at blasting the enemy at medium to long range.

So, to sum up:
Space Marines - Large variety of play styles, but you risk blending into the crowd.
Blood Angels - Like SMs, but more focus on assault. Plus, they're vampires. I hope you like painting red.
Necrons - Synergy and combos.
Tau - Shooting greatness, but poor in assault.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm gonna do my best here. Keep in mind my biases: I play Blood Angels, Space Marines, and Tau (on this list, anyway - I also play Sisters of Battle and Eldar, but you aren't expressing an interest in those). To keep it succinct, I'm going to post the Strengths and Weaknesses of each faction, as well as the Pros and Cons of getting into them. The former is a matter of playstyle, while the latter has more to do with the foibles of Game Workshop's design and release style.

Necrons

Strengths
• Great Shooting
• Tons of powerful flyer options

Weaknesses
• Suck in close combat (seriously - worse than Tau, though their specialized overpriced melee unit is better than Kroot).

Pros
• Brand new codex, built with 6th Edition in mind.
• Lots of really cool models.

Cons
• Lots of cheesy builds that will get you lots of hate at your FLGS if you accidentally fall into them.

Space Marines

Strengths
• Talented generalists
• Morale is not a problem (marines have high leadership and squads are never broken and rarely flee far enough to fall off the table)
• Very good shooting in a variety of ranges.

Weaknesses
• Decent at lots of things - not great at any one thing.

Pros
• Viewed as GW "poster child." Lots of options, frequent codex updates, lots of new toys.

Cons
• You will play a lot of marine-on-marine battles, because marine armies are popular.
• Kind of, well... vanilla. They don't have awesome special tricks. They're just kind of all-round good. May bore you with time.

Blood Angels

Basically, these are Space Marines - with all the strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons that that entails - but with a few special tricks. They are slightly better in close combat, but lack some of the special shooty units marines have (ie. thunderfire cannons). They can take assault marines as troops, which lets you field nearly an entire army of maniacs with jet packs. Their vehicles are almost all fast.

The problem is that with the changes to 6th Edition, Blood Angels aren't really functioning properly. You can play well with their codex, but a lot of the things I described above that sound awesome, you used to be able to build your army around them. Now, they just make for neat tricks, but if you try to have them define your army, you'll lose a lot.

Tau

Strengths
• Incredible shooting, especially at long to extreme range.
• Very fast and mobile, with lots of skimmers and jet pack battlesuits.

Weaknesses
• Incredibly bad close combat.

Pros
• Getting a new update, soon...
• Multi-racial empire means lots of different alien critters to build, rather than tons of similar-looking models.

Cons
• Sort of old and funky model line.
• Their current codex is incredibly old and doesn't really work anymore.
• It remains to be seen if incredibly long distance shooting is a viable tactic in a game where the opposing factions start so close together (really, what's the point of 72'' weaponry when your opponent is rarely more than 48'' away at start of game?).

I hope this is helpful. I'll be watching this thread and eager to answer more questions.

[Tyrendian]

Well, where to begin...

Let's look at some characteristics of the armies you are choosing from (fine selection btw):

Tau: Not much variance in playstyle here - stand back and shoot is pretty much all they can do (aside from Kroot, which are not that good either imo). Their Troops (standard warriors so to speak) are rather squishy but have arguably the best guns of any of the races. Then there's battlesuits, probably the defining theme for Tau, which come in different flavors. First there's Krisis, which are hugely customizable as to their weapon loadout, relatively mobile and hard to kill too, but there's usually not many of them. Second are Broadsides - basically just gun turrets with the best tank hunting gun in the game (Apocalypse aside...), tough as nails but generally stationary. Third there are Stealth suits, who are not much used in my gaming group but can be sneaky tank hunters if you really need them to (which is rarely the case when you have Krisis and Broadsides in the army, among other things). The second defining feature, and what makes Tau truly fearsome at range, are Markerlights - basically one guy (or a unit, or a drone) points a targeter at something, and then another guy or unit shooting at said unfortunate victim gets some nifty bonuses, like hitting better or ignoring cover. Tau tanks are nothing all too special - rather hard to destroy, but a bit weak on the guns side if you ask me. Another thing to note about Tau is that they are believed to be the next race to get a new Codex, so some of the things i just said are going to become obsolete in the near future (hopefully) - but the general character of a shooting army won't change.

Necrons: Also primarily a shooty army, but much shorter ranged than Tau. On the other hand, even their most basic guns can scrap tanks (slowly whittling them down by taking one hull point after another). What's most fun about Necrons is probably that most any guy that dies has a one in three chance of just getting back up and fight on (which can even be improved to 50% through wargear) - combined with their general toughness they are one of the toughest armies to shoot off of something. Sadly, most units severely lack offensive melee punch, which leads to losing combat and being run down (no getting back up after that). They do have some nasty close combat models and units though, so in that regard they are a bit more flexible than Tau. Also, they have lots of funny tricks they can pull off (being a comparatively new codex helps here) like producing masses of little scarabs to swarm the enemy with or using the power of near-godlike beings they have enslaved to make enemies die to the very ground they (try to) walk on. Vehicle-wise, they have some odd designs (like a transport that literally fires broadsides of green energy death at you), but are generally effective, and their fliers are also among the best. As to their status as a beginner's army - they are one of the more forgiving armies i would say, simply due to how hard they are to kill. But noone will be so stupid as to not take them serious - at least not more than once! And once people have figured out how to beat one trick you use, there's a bazillion more to pull on them...

Space Marines: Here we have the Jacks of all trades. They tend to be shooty as well, but have some really good close combats as well, especially hammernators (Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield - off the top of my head i can't think of any unit that's much tougher than them, and they hit like trucks as well). Their main Troops, Tactical Squads, are highly customizable to fill most roles you need them to - except clashing with your opponent's elite hand to hand units. But they can shoot those up pretty good, or go tank hunting, or a mix of the above - useful in that respect is the fact that you can split a full 10 man squad into two five man "combat squads", who can each specialize in one thing or another - for example give one guy a missile launcher and let him hang back with 4 buddies (probably on an objective), give the sarge a power sword or better and another guy a flamer and they can then try to get upfield into your opponent's face). Space Marine vehicles come in all sizes and flavours - from the small and agile Land Speeder to the humble Rhino transport to the Vindicator siege tank (not much more than a HUGE gun on wheels - where that thing shoots stuff dies) to the infamous Land Raider - an incredibly tough and well-armed heavy transport (perfect fit for expensive squads like the above mentioned Assault Terminators that you want to get there in one peace).

Blood Angels: Their playstyle differs from regular marines quite a lot - here we have the only dedicated close combat army on your list. Not that they don't have most of the shooting stuff regular marines have - it's just that they ALSO have some very very nasty additional close combat options, and some of the choices are slightly tweaked to make assaulting more attractive - like their Rhinos being faster than the regular versions (Red 'Unz Go Fastaaaaaaa i guess...). Also, they have Assault Squads (Marines with pistols, chainswords and jump packs) as Troop choices - so it's even easier to get into your opponent's face. And as i said, they have access to most of the shooty backup regular Marines have should they need it...

Hope this helped - feel free to keep asking :-)

[Xenith]

Necrons are definitely not a beginners army. None of them are, really, anymore.

Marines are probably the most forgiving, everyone with T4, power armour and good stats, but it can often be quite hard to win with them, due to their...vanilla-ness. They lack options for dominating the opponent, and to do well, you really have to be able to respond to all game types, and play a different game every game. Unless you want 2xLRC with assault termies and lysander. But that's boring. They are a rewarding and characterful army, easy to learn, hard to master, and one of the best for converting.

Blood Angels are tough like marines, but are harder to get. They are fast, but your troops are fragile, for the amount of points you pay for them. Blood Angels are the scalpel to the Space Marines Brick to the head.

Necrons are good, and have a lot of tricks, but if you are inexperienced with the game, they may have too many special rules to deal with. You will be caught off guard by better players who can exploit your weaknesses. While each unit in a marine codex is pretty much stand alone, and can live without support, the Necron codex deals in synergy, each unit supporting the other (crypteks, triarch stalkers, spyders etc). They will be harder to learn, but very powerful when you do learn. Expect to lose many games to begin with.

[KrewL RaiN]

And dont be afraid to loose. A loss tends to be the best way to learn in my opinion. Mistakes will jump out at you more! Also find opponents who are willing to give you a nice friendly teaching game. Start with smaller points games and work your way up as you learn.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Thanks for the great feedback. It's exactly what I was hoping for.

I'm definitely not afraid to lose, at least at first. The gaming circle is veteran for sure, but they are also extremely nice and willing to teach a newcomer.

Armies that are strong at shooting but weak in combat really don't appeal to me. It is the most boring style of play, IMO. So Tau is probably out of the question.

I also don't want to play the typical overused army that everyone is sick of. So does that same "poster child" sentiment exist for all marine armies?

Sounds like Necrons is the front-runner right now...

[Rissan4ever]

On the "poster child" question: In my opinion, yes. All varieties Marine armies are seen all over the place, at least in my local meta (VA, DC, MD). If you want to be the stand-out, play Necrons.

[ElectricPaladin]

I also don't want to play the typical overused army that everyone is sick of. So does that same "poster child" sentiment exist for all marine armies?

Sounds like Necrons is the front-runner right now...

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars are slightly less common than vanilla marines, but in the public eye, they are all marines. They are also all branches of the Imperium, which leads to the same "why are we fighting this battle?" problem. When you're playing Blood Angels and your opponent is playing vanilla Marines, or whatever, you're still going to be wondering why these brave defenders of mankind are slaughtering each other.

The "poster child" sentiment extends to all Marine armies, even the ones who have been shafted by GW's release schedule and rules decisions. It's quite unfair, actually.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

What about Chaos Marines? How common is that army, and how do they play? I am definitely not hip to the whole problem of "good guys" fighting "good guys." Looks like the best way to prevent that from happening is to be one of the "bad guys."

I didn't consider Chaos Marines too much originally because I was wanting to start up a Chaos Warriors collection in Fantasy and I thought that might get a bit redundant. But there are other WFB baddys that I like...

[Pendragon38]

Hello and welcome to BoLs, If you do play SM I would go merc marines and the reason is you can hop in and out of codexs of csm and sm. It's fun to build your own personal chapter/warband in my op.

Perry

[ElectricPaladin]

What about Chaos Marines? How common is that army, and how do they play? I am definitely not hip to the whole problem of "good guys" fighting "good guys." Looks like the best way to prevent that from happening is to be one of the "bad guys."

I'm far from a Chaos Marine expert. In my area, they are relatively common, but less so than vanilla marines. They are also somewhat less "vanilla," with lots of neat abilities and units inspired by the various ruinous powers. That said, they are still basically marines, and a Chaos Marine vs. Vanilla Marine battle will still have a lot of the same problems that Vanilla Marine vs. Vanilla Marine battles tedious, even though it's less narratively stupid.

One benefit of playing both Warriors of Chaos and Chaos Marines is that a lot of the leftover bits from one kit will be useful in the other, which might be fun. You could build a very neat, very customized army for both games if you're willing to give the occasional Chaos Marine a Warrior of Chaos head, or the occasional Warrior of Chaos a Chaos Marines power sword.

[ElectricPaladin]

Hello and welcome to BoLs, If you do play SM I would go merc marines and the reason is you can hop in and out of codexs of csm and sm. It's fun to build your own personal chapter/warband in my op.

Perry

This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, I'm tempted to strip my Blood Angels and repaint them as Knights of the Blood so I can play them as Khornate CSMs or loyal-but-insane Blood Angels, depending on my mood.

[Pendragon38]

This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, I'm tempted to strip my Blood Angels and repaint them as Knights of the Blood so I can play them as Khornate CSMs or loyal-but-insane Blood Angels, depending on my mood.
That and then you can play test crons and tau as allies in you army too

[KrewL RaiN]

One benefit of playing both Warriors of Chaos and Chaos Marines is that a lot of the leftover bits from one kit will be useful in the other, which might be fun. You could build a very neat, very customized army for both games if you're willing to give the occasional Chaos Marine a Warrior of Chaos head, or the occasional Warrior of Chaos a Chaos Marines power sword.

This. Paladin beat me to that comment. I was just about to post a thought along these lines lol. There is so many bits in the Warrior of Chaos range I would love to have for my Chaos Marines :<!

[ElectricPaladin]

This. Paladin beat me to that comment. I was just about to post a thought along these lines lol. There is so many bits in the Warrior of Chaos range I would love to have for my Chaos Marines :<!

I beat KrewL a lot. It's not a kink thing, though. It's just fun.

[Deadlift]

I had a Knights of Blood army a couple years ago, not only a little unique but also gave me the option to switch between vanilla, BA, and the chaos codex as has been said. Also the paint scheme is quite easy to paint. I did some searching though my files to find an example of how I painted mine but all I could find was a dreadnought, this guy I painted 50/50 half in my interpretation of the knights of blood and the other half in traditional BA to show its origins from its founding legion / chapter.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab3/joenortonjones/IMG_0004-3.jpg


As for a starter army, my vote would be Grey Knights. A very versatile army and quite forgiving too. Plus you won't have to spend so much as it can be very elite if you wanted it to be. You could even think about a a chapter called the exocists, which with a bit of inventiveness could allow you to use both the vanilla and grey knights codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exorcists#.UTUfbnwgGSM

Out of them all though, the vanilla codex is my favourite hands down.

[ElectricPaladin]

As for a starter army, my vote would be Grey Knights. A very versatile army and quite forgiving too. Plus you won't have to spend so much as it can be very elite if you wanted it to be. You could even think about a a chapter called the exocists, which with a bit of inventiveness could allow you to use both the vanilla and grey knights codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exorcists#.UTUfbnwgGSM

I have an Exorcists army, and I occasionally play around with the idea of doing this. At the moment, the differences in models prohibit it. I love me my termies, and Grey Knights terminators universally wield swords rather than fists, so I'd need to buy up an entirely new force of terminators.

That said, I'll probably do this myself, sooner or later. The new rules allowing me to use a stormraven in either army list makes it more likely.

[spaceman91]

I was told when i started that i should buy space marines. I didn't want to, i wanted to play tau but the staff told me that it was a stupid idea and that space marines are the army for beginners. I see now that in some ways they were right and in some they were way off the mark. I love my SM but i still have that love for the space comunists ( i cant spell, sorry). Had i of picked tau i think the learning curve would have been steeper but i think i still would have enjoyed myself. From this i learnt a few things 1. SM are not stupid proof 2. SM are very forgiving if you make a **** up and the most important lesson don't let people choose for you. I still to this day regret not buying that tau book first but hay ho i now have both and i love them equally.( ok maybe my tau a little bit more) but what i am trying to get at is go look up the back ground and the models. Make your choice from that. Of you don't like the models you won't like panting/playing with them. I do hope this helped(coming from me, i think not). This is not meant to come off as condersending(i really should have paid more attention in english).

[Dlatrex]

What about Chaos Marines? How common is that army, and how do they play? I am definitely not hip to the whole problem of "good guys" fighting "good guys." Looks like the best way to prevent that from happening is to be one of the "bad guys."

I didn't consider Chaos Marines too much originally because I was wanting to start up a Chaos Warriors collection in Fantasy and I thought that might get a bit redundant. But there are other WFB baddys that I like...


You know, since you are admittedly jumping into a local group, it might be worth it to take inventory of what your local competition plays: at my old LGS Chaos marines were very popular, but I know that that is certainly not true everywhere. It's possible that one of the armies you are eying is very underrepresented within your local scene. I was the Xenos standout with Nids and Necron back in 4th/5th edition, but as the Tyranid codex was released and they became more prevalent, I naturally gravitated more to the necrons. They were underrepresented (rightfully so!) before their codex drop, and it was fun to play a 'different' army than what everyone saw on the table top.

That said, to echo the great advice everyone had offered, spend some time immersing yourself in the top 2-3 armies. Look at some artwork, watch some fan-made-youtube videos with terrible music and editing. Look at the naked plastic models before their painted. You're going to get to know this army very very in the years to come, so you might as well get the hook from day one. =)

[Nabterayl]

In my opinion space marines have played like a commando army for at least two editions. That is great, since that's what space marines are, but they're only a "beginner" army in the sense that the individual men are high quality. Like playing a paratrooper army in other contexts, it's great to have high-quality rank and file, but you still need finesse. That's true whether you're playing regular marines, fast marines (Blood Angels), or any other flavor.

Do you know where you want to play mostly, or with whom? My group has only two Imperial space marines players, neither of whom play vanilla marines, , unless you count me, for whom it is very much my second army. If you are worried about seeming generic, I'd check with your local/prospective scene.

To the extent you are looking to plan for the long term, the governing aesthetic of the factions may be of interest to you as well. Codices get updated, after all, but the look and feel tends to stay the same even as the rules of each codex are tweaked. So regardless of edition, you can expect:

Space marines to play like paratroopers - a small number of high quality troopers without heavy support who have to get everything done with a limited number of booed;

Blood Angels to play like space marines with an extra focus on speed and insertion options at the expense of some support weaponry;

Necrons to play like an undead hoard backed by the strange and arcane;

Tau to play like a fluid army of skirmishers with heavy firepower;

And Chaos space marines to play like an army of heavy infantry.

The details of how those aesthetics are implemented will vary from edition to edition and codex to codex, but I think those will always be the guiding visions.

[White Tiger88]

Ok guys, thanks for all the warm welcomes so far. I was particularly fond of the dancing pony.

Anyways, this is my first foray into 40K so I'm going through the process of selecting my first army. First and foremost, I have narrowed it down to 4 choices based on the way the models look: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Tau, and Necrons.

I think I would be happy starting off with any of these. However, right now I don't have access to the codexes so it's tricky getting an idea how these armies play from batreps on youtube and whatnot.

So what play styles would I be looking at with these armies? For instance, is there really any difference between Space Marines and Blood angels? Is the only difference theme? Also, I read somewhere that Necrons are considered a "beginners" army which gives me the idea that people don't really respect them. But I read that on a forum post that was like 4 years old so I have no idea how relevant that statement would be today.

I suppose most important to me is that an army is capable of having multiple play styles that can be successful. I will not be playing competitively for now, but I will be joining a circle of very seasoned players, so I want to be able to hold my own. If the most flexible armies (with regard to play style) are not on my list, what are they?...because I will consider adding them.

Shed some light on one or more of these factions and I will appreciate you until the end of time. Thanks in advance!

I would say go with Tyranids since they are a rare army....But since i saw you mention Chaos Marines i would say go with them since you get lots of options for cool conversions,modeling & can allie with tons of other armies to make your collection more interesting & fun to paint.

[Nabterayl]

Unless you've discarded the CSM idea, perhaps it would be helpful if we discussed the differences between space marines and Chaos space marines?

Both armies share the core aesthetic of requiring the player to do much with little. Chaos space marines and regular space marines are very similar in terms of equipment, statline, and cost. You will also see a number of shared units across factions, such as terminators, Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders. While a Chaos Rhino (or Predator, etc.) and a loyalist Rhino are not identical, they are very similar. True to their commando/paratrooper-ish origins, neither faction will you give you the game's most awe-inspiring support vehicles.

As I said before, I would distinguish space marines (including their variant flavors) from other factions through the commando/paratrooper analogy. They have some of the coolest and most reliable insertion techniques in the game (e.g., drop pods), and nearly all of their units are decent at more than one thing. That extends to their pool of support vehicles, which is not the heaviest, fastest, most numerous, or most powerful in the game, but is characterized by either fairly cheap specialization or robust versatility.

Chaos space marines lack some of the specialized insertion techniques that loyalist space marines have, as well as some of the better specialist support vehicles or units. While almost every unit in a loyalist marine army can do multiple things, only the middle-tier troops and vehicles in a Chaos space marine list have that same level of versatility. In exchange, they have greater access to low-quality troops (thus potentially reducing the need to spend fairly expensive models doing mundane tasks), and greater access to high-quality specialist troops and support vehicles (by which I also mean to include daemon engines, some of which are technically monstrous creatures rather than vehicles, rules-wise). Chaos space marines exchange some of the trademark space marine versatility for greater extremes of power at both the high and low end.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Thanks a ton for all of the opinions that have been expressed. I will take everything into consideration.

I agree that the look of the models is hugely important. I'm so new to these models that I feel differently about them from day to day. I

also appreciate the comment about spending time to really learn about my top 2 or 3 choices. I have reached out to the gaming group I'll be joining. I hope to find out soon what armies are represented there. It's a bit tricky, however, because I'm relocating to a different state soon and I'm joining up with a group at my new location.

[White Tiger88]

Thanks a ton for all of the opinions that have been expressed. I will take everything into consideration.

I agree that the look of the models is hugely important. I'm so new to these models that I feel differently about them from day to day. I

also appreciate the comment about spending time to really learn about my top 2 or 3 choices. I have reached out to the gaming group I'll be joining. I hope to find out soon what armies are represented there. It's a bit tricky, however, because I'm relocating to a different state soon and I'm joining up with a group at my new location.

I still think you should do CSM....that makes dark vengence give you a full army AND there fun to paint\play! (And you can pick up cheap old models on ebay to convert to plague marines!)

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Hello and welcome to BoLs, If you do play SM I would go merc marines and the reason is you can hop in and out of codexs of csm and sm. It's fun to build your own personal chapter/warband in my op.

Perry

Ok, so how does this work? I'm confused about a few things. First of all, there isn't a Marines Mercenaries codex, is there? So how do you just "hop in and out" of codices? For example, if I'm playing WFB and I like lots of the good guys, I can't just decide to pick and choose a few units from Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, and Empire. So what regulates how much you are able to choose units from different codices?

Maybe someone can answer by explaining this to me: I was able to get in touch with some of the games at my (future) location and one guy said he used to have a White Scars army. How would you even have that?

Also, why is there a codex for Black Templars if they aren't their own "army?"

Thanks!

[Rissan4ever]

Ok, so how does this work? I'm confused about a few things. First of all, there isn't a Marines Mercenaries codex, is there? So how do you just "hop in and out" of codices? For example, if I'm playing WFB and I like lots of the good guys, I can't just decide to pick and choose a few units from Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, and Empire. So what regulates how much you are able to choose units from different codices?

Maybe someone can answer by explaining this to me: I was able to get in touch with some of the games at my (future) location and one guy said he used to have a White Scars army. How would you even have that?

Also, why is there a codex for Black Templars if they aren't their own "army?"

Thanks!

I believe what Perry is talking about is building a Marine army but painting and modeling them in such away that they could also serve as a Chaos Marine army.

RE: White Scars Army - The guy probably meant he had a mostly bikers Space Marine army and painted them to be the White Scars chapter.

RE: Black Templars - They're certainly their own army. They're one of the thousand chapters of Space Marines. They have their own codex because they deviate from the standard Marine organization.

[White Tiger88]

Black templar are more or less crazy space monks in power army on a holy crusade to kill everyone they don't like. This is why i said go chaos its chaper, you can get any model yo want to convert and customized color wise PLUS you can use them as other codexs if you like. (Marines are marines in the end, Chaos is just cooler and get giant pissed off demon princes)

[Camael]

Hello and welcome! I started playing just over a year ago. The only army I have is C:SM and I love them. They are versatile and forgiving. Their infantry is great, and their supporting vehicles are awesome IMO. I think perhaps the best thing about both CSM and C:SM is that you are not bonded to any one fluff or story behind your army, you can do what you want because their origins are from so long ago nobody can tell you you are wrong! I really like the fact that, with my Drop Pods, my alpha strike ability is devastating. Also, in a short range firefight (under 24 inches) I have yet to find an army that can really go toe to toe with mine. Also, Finally, you get lots of fun characters to play shenanigans with if you want

[Pendragon38]

Ok, so how does this work? I'm confused about a few things. First of all, there isn't a Marines Mercenaries codex, is there? So how do you just "hop in and out" of codices? For example, if I'm playing WFB and I like lots of the good guys, I can't just decide to pick and choose a few units from Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, and Empire. So what regulates how much you are able to choose units from different codices?

Maybe someone can answer by explaining this to me: I was able to get in touch with some of the games at my (future) location and one guy said he used to have a White Scars army. How would you even have that?

Also, why is there a codex for Black Templars if they aren't their own "army?"

Thanks! There used to be a codex called the lost and damn in 3rd that let you build a warband of SM and CSM. Now you can build your on chapter of SM and wage war as a good or bad guy. Here's a good warband for you Iron warriors that you can play as Iron hands if painted right. And if you go this route you're modeling line is almost endless.

Perry

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

...the best thing about both CSM and C:SM...

Excuse my ignorance, but what are you talking about here?

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

RE: Black Templars - They're certainly their own army.

What do Black Templars play like? Still very similar to regular SM? They have hardly any models on the GW site so I'm guessing they have all the same tanks and stuff available to them.

[Rissan4ever]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are you talking about here?

CSM = Chaos Space Marines

C:SM = Codex: Space Marines

[Nabterayl]

Ok, so how does this work? I'm confused about a few things. First of all, there isn't a Marines Mercenaries codex, is there? So how do you just "hop in and out" of codices? For example, if I'm playing WFB and I like lots of the good guys, I can't just decide to pick and choose a few units from Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, and Empire. So what regulates how much you are able to choose units from different codices?
The only regulation is what your gaming group thinks is cool and/or offensive. For instance, let's say I have my own chapter of space marines called the Violet Avatars (the freedom to design the lore, character, and/or paint scheme of one's own space marine chapter is one of the appeals of the faction). Perhaps the Avatars' Fourth Company, for reasons that I have explained in geeky detail and my friends think are cool, has a lot of tanks in it. I might decide that Fourth Company is best represented by the Blood Angels codex. But maybe Fourth Company is deviant even within the chapter, and so the character of the First Company is best represented by the Space Marines codex. One day I play 4th Co., using my collection of purple-and-steel painted space marines and an army chosen from the Blood Angels codex. A different day I play 1st Co., using the same collection of purple-and-steel painted space marines and an army chosen from the Space Marines codex.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, unless my friends have a problem with it. If they do, then presumably I won't do it.


Maybe someone can answer by explaining this to me: I was able to get in touch with some of the games at my (future) location and one guy said he used to have a White Scars army. How would you even have that?
Part of space marine lore is the nine original legions of space marines (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#Original_names_and_appearances ) who stayed loyal to the Emperor during the Horus Heresy. These are the Ultramarines, Salamanders, White Scars, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. Each of the loyalist space marine chapters of the current day is descended from one of these nine.* Currently, the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves (and their successors) each have their own codex.

The Ultramarines, Salamanders, White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard (and their successors) are all represented by Codex: Space Marines.** There are two ways to do this, which can be used together or separately. The first is simply in the composition and paint scheme of your force. For instance, White Scars are known for their hit-and-run attacks. Paint your marines in the colors of the White Scars (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scars#.UTbI8Bysh8E) and have an army list (chosen from Codex: Space Marines) that emphasizes bikes, drop pods, and armored personnel carriers and presto, you have a White Scars army! The second is to choose one of the chapter-specific special characters in your army list. Codex: Space Marines includes one special character for each of the Salamanders, White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard who, if chosen, alters an army-wide special rule in a way that is more appropriate for that chapter (the default setting for this special rule is the "Ultramarines" one). By including Kor'sarro Khan (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1600032a&amp;_requestid=8 17166) (the White Scars SC) in my army list, I can exchange the ability to fail a Morale check on command (the Ultramarines army-wide special rule) for the ability to deploy virtually my entire army via Outflanking, reflecting the White Scars' preference to outmaneuver their opponents.

Plenty of people dislike the requirement to take a named special character to achieve this effect, but something like it has always been a part of Codex: Space Marines regardless of edition. Last edition of the codex, there was a system of "chapter traits" that could be purchased as part of the army list. Who knows what next edition will bring, but it's a good bet that there will still be a way to make Ultramarines, Salamanders, White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard slightly different from each other via a chapter-specific army-wide special rule.


Also, why is there a codex for Black Templars if they aren't their own "army?"
The Black Templars are their own space marine chapter, so they're as much an army as the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, or any other chapter. Lore-wise, the Black Templars are a descendant of the Imperial Fists legion (represented, recall, by Codex: Space Marines) whose character and organization is fairly different from their parent chapter.

From a business perspective, the truth is that having your own codex tends to make an army more deviant over time. If you go back three editions, all of the space marine chapters looked much more alike than they do these days. Once a chapter has its own codex, there's an inevitable temptation/business need to produce models unique to that codex, which inevitably leads to the chapter being retconned as more variant than the last iteration. This may be one reason why GW has not added a new space marine codex in a long time (the popular consensus is that they won't ever again, if you're wondering/worried).


What do Black Templars play like? Still very similar to regular SM? They have hardly any models on the GW site so I'm guessing they have all the same tanks and stuff available to them.
Black Templars haven't had a new codex for two editions, so the truth is that they're sort of an odd duck at present. The four variant marine codices are:

Blood Angels - fast space marines, played by Angels Who are Also Vampires.
Space Wolves - close combat space marines, played by Vikings Who are Also Werewolves.
Black Templars - close combat space marines, played by the Catholic Church at War.
Dark Angels - shooty space marines, played by the Catholic Church as a Villain in a Dan Brown Novel.
2 and 3, schematically, have a fair amount of overlap. Enough so that I should probably let a more veteran Black Templars player explain how they're different from Space Wolves.

However, you're right that they don't have a lot of unique models.*** They used to, but another business reality is that after a model that could fit the aesthetic of other space marine books has been out for an edition or two, it tends to get retconned into those other editions. For instance, the Black Templars used to have a unique Land Raider, the Land Raider Crusader. Nowadays, every space marine chapter gets access to it. Quite likely the Black Templars will get some new unique things whenever they get a new codex update; for now, their variation is in the organization of their Force Organization Chart and their army-wide special rules. For instance, Black Templars can have space marine scouts integrated directly into their squads, as opposed to in their own separate units (the knight-and-squire metaphor is obvious).

* There were originally twenty space marine legions. To generalize a little bit, nine stayed loyal, nine turned traitor, and two are never spoken of in any official source beyond the bare fact that they were contemporaneous with the other eighteen. We don't even know their names. We probably never will, since having two blank legions gives players the freedom to invent their own totally unique chapter history and justify it by saying, "Well, we're descended from one of the unknown legions."

** Codex: Space Marines also includes special characters to represent the Crimson Fists (one of the Imperial Fists' successors).

*** Of course, they do have their own upgrade pack (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1060205), allowing you to bedeck your "regular" vehicles and space marines with the 11th century style iconography of the Black Templars, so in a sense, all their models are unique.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Dude, Nabterayl....Thanks a ton for that info. That must have taken a while for you to type up so I greatly appreciate it.

Why aren't Grey Knights considered a variant Marine Codex? The only background the core rulebook has on them is on page 187 along with some details for the other variants you mentioned (minus the Black Templars). It says Grey Knights are a "Chapter" amongst "the elite brotherhood of Space Marines."

What style of combat are Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, and Iron Hands known for? Looks like Iron Hands got screwed out of having a character in C:SM to represent their Chapter. What abilities do Vulkan He'stan, Darnath Lysander, and Kayvaan Shrike grant to their army?

Is there any sort of art and fluff for the Chapters that turned traitor? I suppose building an army that is themed for, say, Alpha Legion, would be one way of having a "bad" army and solving the narrative issue of having two marine armies slaughter each other, while also letting me use models I really like...because I really like SM and BA models better than CSM models.

[White Tiger88]

Vulkan He'stan:Twin linked fire based weapons for your WHOLE ARMY(Flamers,melta's so on),Mastercrafted Thunderhammers :D (Great fun for terminators and melta\flamer spam)

Darnath Lysander: Uber annoying to kill and twin-linked bolters if i remember right

Kayvaan Shrik: Outflanks if i remember right

Dude chaos chapters have tons of fluff ill toss you a link Via Pm, also chaos chapter wise (for the originals at least)

Thousand Sons: Sorcerer's, Egyptian theme

Night Lords:Think batman like terror causing assassin marines

Sons of Horus\Black Legion: Over all blank chaos marines that take anyone

World Eaters:Worship khorne, close combat freaks they are also bat crap crazy and each trooper is labotomized to be more angry.

Death Guard: Worship Nurgle, Love posions,Infecting people and takeing damage to laugh it off.

Word Bearers: Crazy church like chapter that worships all 4 chaos god's well yelling religious nut case lines.

Iron Wars: See mechanical fetish.

ALpha Legion: Pretty much the Black Ops marine chapter who spy on everyone, assinate you and your little dog, then put your skin on.

Emperor's Children: Slaanesh worshipers love all form of pleasure,pain, anything fun! Sex,Drugs, Rock'n'roll

[Nabterayl]

Dude, Nabterayl....Thanks a ton for that info. That must have taken a while for you to type up so I greatly appreciate it.

Why aren't Grey Knights considered a variant Marine Codex? The only background the core rulebook has on them is on page 187 along with some details for the other variants you mentioned (minus the Black Templars). It says Grey Knights are a "Chapter" amongst "the elite brotherhood of Space Marines."
Ah, you got me. Sort of. In terms of play style and visuals, Grey Knights are very much space marines (who double down on the "we don't get a lot of models, so everybody has to be good at more than one job" paratrooper aesthetic). Lore-wise, Grey Knights are essentially a space marine side project - not descended from any of the twenty legions, they were created as a secret anti-daemon chapter on the side. They emerged from their super secret space base lab shortly after the Horus Heresy was concluded, having missed the whole thing, when the modern chapter system was being set up. Somehow they got themselves on the rolls as "Chapter 666" despite the fact that there were nowhere near 665 other chapters in existence at the time - perhaps, given the devastation at the time, nobody felt like looking a gift chapter of loyalist space marines in the mouth. Biologically, they are space marines. Organizationally, they are very roughly space marines (but no more variant in organization than, say, the Space Wolves or the Black Templars). Materiel-wise, they probably have more unique gear than any other chapter, even if much of that uniqueness is only really apparent once you get into their rules.

Today, the Grey Knights are still the super-secret probably-mythological-there-is-no-secret-chapter-of-daemon-hunting-space-marines daemon hunters (fortunately for everybody's fun, as of the last codex the Grey Knights' anti-daemon rules and wargear are almost universally useful against pretty much anybody) that even most space marines don't know about. So ... I don't really think of them as space marines, since they don't come from the original twenty legions. If you're worried about whether your fellow players might perceive Grey Knights as being "just more space marines" ... that's a good question, actually. I wouldn't. But maybe I'm just weird that way.


What style of combat are Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, and Iron Hands known for? Looks like Iron Hands got screwed out of having a character in C:SM to represent their Chapter. What abilities do Vulkan He'stan, Darnath Lysander, and Kayvaan Shrike grant to their army?
Salamanders are known for being close-range hard-fighting *******s. While many space marine chapters like to fight up close (the Blood Angels, for instance), Salamanders can be distinguished by their preference for firepower and solidity over speed. For instance, lore-wise, Salamanders don't really use bikes or Land Speeders. You'll notice that Vulkan's chapter bonuses apply to very powerful, short-range weapons - that's why.

The Imperial Fists are known for being specialists in prepared positions - both in preparing them (or, if you want to get a little more realistic, advising other people how to build them) and in storming them. Most space marines have the sense to fight like commandos, using their superior operational mobility to abandon untenable positions and hit the enemy where he is weak, not where he is strong. The Imperial Fists pride themselves on being able and willing to smash through anything and hold anything, whether it's a good idea or not. In line with this, Lysander is one of the toughest and hardest-hitting space marine characters in any space marine codex, and his chapter rule replaces the Ultramarines' ability to fall back when desired with the Stubborn special rule, which means that Imperial Fists units ignore negative penalties to Morale and Leadership tests (consistent with Imperial Fists lore, this can mean that your squads won't run away even if you would actually like them to :P).

The Raven Guard are known as infiltration and stealth specialists. Most space marines rely on speed and violence when it comes time to fight - they can get to their target, smash it, and run away again before you can muster the force it would take to crush them, so they don't really care if you see them coming. The Raven Guard pride themselves on being first noticed not when their drop pods or Thunderhawks are screaming toward the target, but when stuff starts to blow up. For this reason, Kayvaan Shrike can grant the Infiltrate special rule to any squad that he joins, allowing you to slip one unit into a strategic position after all other units have been deployed. While various units in the game (including some space marine units) come with Infiltrate standard, Shrike lets you give it to anybody who isn't a vehicle. How did those assault terminators sneak up on me? Because they're Raven Guard.

The Iron Hands are known for their fanatical hatred of "weakness" in all forms, including the weakness of flesh. They are known for their voluntary replacement of body parts with bionics (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1600078a), their clan-based chapter organization, and their unusual reverence for terminator armor and dreadnoughts. The Iron Hands do not get a special character in the current codex, but I would actually represent them using the Space Wolves codex. Iron Hands' use of terminators is distinctive in that they rarely group terminators together; such is their reverence for rock-hard technology that terminator armor is inspirational in the manner of a battle standard, so terminator armor is doled out to squad sergeants to bolster morale. Similarly, whereas in most chapters dreadnoughts serve in a support role (though they may be consulted for advice), in the Iron Hands it is not unusual for a dreadnought to actually be the force commander. Right now, Space Wolves are the only codex that let you do those two things on the tabletop.


Is there any sort of art and fluff for the Chapters that turned traitor? I suppose building an army that is themed for, say, Alpha Legion, would be one way of having a "bad" army and solving the narrative issue of having two marine armies slaughter each other, while also letting me use models I really like...because I really like SM and BA models better than CSM models.
Hopefully White Tiger or somebody else can hook you up here, as I don't have a lot of artwork assets on hand. I can tell you that the Red Corsairs are a traitor chapter that has been forced out of necessity to become the center of a powerful pirate faction.

Lore-wise, I have always found the renegade space marines (by which I mean non-loyalist space marines not descended from one of the nine traitor legions) to be a really interesting foil. As you may or may not know, with a couple of notable exceptions, space marine recruits are generally taken at the age of 8 to 10, generally from primitive worlds where life is harsh (the theory being that such worlds breed the best character for supercommandos) where space marines are virtually magical figures who live in the sky. So if you're a space marine, odds are the chapter took you (i) from parents who were incapable of understanding the choice they were making for you, (ii) virtually before you were physiologically capable of critical thinking, (iii) for four to six years of live-fire training that kills a significant portion of the 8-14 year olds who undertake it, (iv) so your body could be subjected to a process that renders it permanently dependent upon chemical supplements that (v) by the way, also sometimes kills you outright, (vi) so that you could spend your teenage years as a scout sniper on real battlefields, (vii) all so that, if by some miracle you survived to your twenties, you could join a brotherhood of supercommandos whose jobs are so dangerous that despite all their advantages, most don't make it through fifty combat drops, (viii) and the only way out is either in a body bag or to be hounded for the rest of your life as a "traitor."

That might be necessary for the Imperium as a whole to keep the slavering masses of evil from devouring the bulk of innocent humanity, but it is also a downright evil thing to do to a kid. The amazing thing is not that space marines quit to turn renegade, but that any of them find it in themselves to make the adult choice to stay in this crap life that the chapter thrust upon them without their consent, essentially at the point of a gun. And it should give you some idea of why there is a mismatch between the loyalist definition of "Chaos space marines" and the "Chaos" definition of "Chaos space marines." Of course it is true that there really are malevolent sentient entities out there who would just love to help a poor misunderstood space marine on the run (first time's free! Honest!), and many "renegade" chapters do things that are themselves undeniably evil, out of either desperation or like all-powerful repressed kids cutting loose at college. But the truth is that there are plenty of interesting, rational, human reasons not to go along with the space marine program that have nothing to do with wanting to do evil. So ... while I don't have a lot of sources for you on specific renegade chapter fluff (though the story of the rise of the Red Corsairs is nicely representative), the general renegade fluff I think is quite compelling, and could serve as a perfect excuse to use "loyalist" marine models no matter what codex you are actually playing.