A random thought I had about space wolves

[Pater Sin]

Since the SW have 12 great companys does that mean there are 1200 or do they have smaller companys than the other chapters?

[Psychosplodge]

As a none codex chapter they could be even bigger theoretically...

[hairyyahoo]

most great companies are a lot bigger than a codex company. ragnar's mob alone has more than 200 bods.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Due to the attrition rates of their members, the Space Wolf Great Companies can range from a full chapter's strength down to a squad's. It really depends on whats going on, black crusades or rebellions, etc.... And the 13th's numbers are unknown. As one of the smaller legions SW's never got anywhere near the Ultramarines or other legions as far as quantity is concerned, and their current incarnation isn't looking any better.

Edit: Black Templars are also a non-codex chapter, so both chapters could theoretically be at Legion strength... This is something that causes issues with the Ecclesiarchy.

[Nabterayl]

Last I checked, Ragnar's great company is the biggest in the chapter at about 260, so the chapter as a whole is somewhere south of 3000. That seems pretty reasonable to me. A codex company requires roughly one marine for every two operating as infantry, and unlike codex battle companies, great companies are supposed to be independent. So we'd expect them to be roughly 50% larger than a codex company assuming roughly equal combat power. Add in the variations to be expected from the way wolf lords recruit and retain followers and an upper limit of ~260 per company seems perfectly believable.

[Denzark]

Due to the attrition rates of their members, the Space Wolf Great Companies can range from a full chapter's strength down to a squad's. It really depends on whats going on, black crusades or rebellions, etc.... And the 13th's numbers are unknown. As one of the smaller legions SW's never got anywhere near the Ultramarines or other legions as far as quantity is concerned, and their current incarnation isn't looking any better.

Edit: Black Templars are also a non-codex chapter, so both chapters could theoretically be at Legion strength... This is something that causes issues with the Ecclesiarchy.

Source?

I reckon the wolves for around 3k - and I wouldn't call that a Legion. I can't see the BT, a loyal successor chapter of a codex compliant 1st founding, being much bigger, let alone pre-heresy legion size.

Does anyone even have a credible standard size for a legion, given that the Codex Astartes was written at the time of the break up of the legions?

[Psychosplodge]

Original BT codex estimated their size at upto 5k didn't it? or was that the index astartes article?

But the modern Extended universe background limits their numbers to about three smaller crusades doesn't it?

[Nabterayl]

Source?

I reckon the wolves for around 3k - and I wouldn't call that a Legion.
The Space Wolves codex says that "the Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors" (p. 17). So ... that makes the plausible ceiling about 2400, I think.


Original BT codex estimated their size at upto 5k didn't it? or was that the index astartes article?

But the modern Extended universe background limits their numbers to about three smaller crusades doesn't it?
The current Black Templars codex says, "There are usually no more than three Crusades at any one time, though there are occasionally many more. ... The size of a Crusade can also vary widely, sometimes as few as fifty to a hundred warriors, sometimes the equivalent of several Companies from a Codex Chapter. ... If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total" (p. 8).

So in other words, a Crusade is actually just a fancy name for a strike force - and like the strike forces of a codex chapter, can contain just a few squads or several companies. If the chapter is generally limited to three large-ish Crusades, and a Crusade tops out at "several" companies, then we're really looking at an upper limit of 3,000 or so - and we only get that high if we take "several Companies from a Codex Chapter" to mean "all the Companies from a Codex Chapter," which it almost certainly does not.

I suppose we can increase that some for Black Templars not on Crusade (a squad manning a keep here and there waiting for pickup, say), but the nature of the chapter means that there can't be very many of those. The only other way I can see for them to get even as high as 3,000 is if the codex doesn't include fleet officers as Crusade personnel. I can well imagine the Black Templars having a dedicated naval officer corps, which would probably add another few hundred to their total - and while I'm sure that those are considered Crusade personnel in "reality," I can also imagine that Graham McNeill just forgot about/deliberately closed his eyes to them.


Does anyone even have a credible standard size for a legion, given that the Codex Astartes was written at the time of the break up of the legions?
The Horus Heresy: Betrayal says that at the very start of the Crusade, the legions numbered "no more than a few hundred warriors each" (p. 27). This was then expanded as the Crusade went on because "To relent the pace of the Crusade's progress was for the Emperor simply not an option and so the simple truth was that more Space Marines were needed and faster than ever before" (p. 27). By the time we catch up with Betrayal in the timeline and it is speaking in the present, it says "A Space Marine Legion is a frontline force of shock-infantry comprising tens of thousands (and in some cases vastly more) of biochemically and surgically enhanced super-warriors ... Thousands together can conquer worlds in days, and tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands wielded at once have been able to doom entire species and reduce civilisations to mere dust and memory in a span no greater than the single course of Terra's orbit around its sun" (p. 29).

So assuming we're referring to the height of the Crusade and not the beginning, a legion should number at least 20,000 - and in some cases, "vastly more" (though whether that means 30,000 - an extra 10,000 space marines counts as "vastly more" in my book - or 300,000 is anybody's guess as far as I know).

[Pendragon38]

Nab has it right about chapter strength.

If I recall that most chapter strength was at 10,000-20,000 sm per chapter before the fall, but that was before it got retcon and I think it's in RT or 2nd ed if I'm right. I remember reading it about a year or so.

[Denzark]

If I remember from my HH books, some legions were hugely populous ie UMs. Others less so - indeed those who had geneseed problems (1K Sons) or Alpha would have had less. Also I think the post Istvaan RG were about 3000 left in Deliverance Lost. But there seems to be no standard, ie Emp says 'a legion is 50K make it so, and I'll have tea, Earl Grey hot.' or what have you.

[Wildeybeast]

If I remember from my HH books, some legions were hugely populous ie UMs. Others less so - indeed those who had geneseed problems (1K Sons) or Alpha would have had less. Also I think the post Istvaan RG were about 3000 left in Deliverance Lost. But there seems to be no standard, ie Emp says 'a legion is 50K make it so, and I'll have tea, Earl Grey hot.' or what have you.

HH books indicate the RG rock up to Istvaan with around 80,000 warriors which is basically the entire legion (bar those few left behind to protect Deliverance). I'm not sure how that compares with the other legions; I think they are one of the larger ones, though the likes of the Ultramarines are more numerous.

[Nabterayl]

I think it's pretty clear that while we can say X legion was Y big at Z point in time, a "legion" was just however many space marines of a given geneseed existed at a given time It's not like the Emperor ever sat down and said, "Okay, a full-strength legion should have X space marines in it."

[Psychosplodge]

Look at the Emperor's Children, They were the smallest legion, and were still a Legion

[Denzark]

Look at the Emperor's Children, They were the smallest legion, and were still a Legion

Technically yes - there is some pedantry here. Ie a battalion parades one day, takes 90% casualties and parades the next. The survivors are still that battalion, but are they a Battalion? Not to pick on Mr Pickelz but given that Legion is a concept of multiple chapters, and it would appear chapter strength was not set prior to the Codex Astartes rationalising things, so to state that SW and BT are at Legion strength and that pees off te ecclisiarchy, is a bit of a misnomer I feel.

[Nabterayl]

Let's remember that when Fulgrim took command of his legion, it had two hundred space marines in it. Damn heretical Ultramarines, being five times the size of a legion!