Eldar tactics against Grey Knights

[AM-254]

Hello all,

This is the first time I've started a thread on any forum so, if I've done something wrong, do holler :P

I used to play Eldar and, after a break of about a year (due to exams and such), I've started playing again (now in 6th eddition). I've played two games and was hillariously outmatched in both, resulting in an inglorious demise.

Both games have been against Grey Knights (1200 points). In the first game I took a force consisting of:
Eldrad
a warwalker with bright lances,
two fire prisms
two wave serpents
two squads of fire dragons riding in said wave serpents
guardian squad with bright lance
guardian jetbikes squad

The set up was straight up annihilation, or whatever the new name for it is and the guy was playing Grey knights and space marines allied. I quickly found my tanks evapourating under las cannon fire from a landraider and two flying rust buckets. My fire dragons were demeched and gunned down and a squad of GK terminators absorbed my firepower like a spunge.
I confess I found myself rather bewildered.

Second game I foot slogged with:
thirty Dire Avengers
Eldrad
5 Dark Reapers
5 swooping hawks
10 fire dragons in a wave serpent

I had intended to launch an allout rush first turn to seize some cover in the mid-field and present my opponent (pure GK this time) with alot of threats to choose between, with swooping hawks (glancing on 2+ now in asssault) and fire dragons to relieve him of any landraiders he might field.
I rolled first turn.
He "stole the initiative" and a vindicare assassin popped my wave serpent whilst jokaro/hairy orange devil-spawn farted all kinds of horrific munitions at me. His terminators advanced and minced my infantry.
I had set up within plenty of cover due to the old terminators lacking grenades thing and thought I'd be able to salvage the game by staying where I was and bladestorming him whilst Eldrad performed his tricks (all those dice, 1 terminator died).
He chewed up my army and spat it out.

So my amaturish attempts at tactics aside, I'm curious as to any tips anyone can offer on which units work best for eldar in sixth eddition. I was rather rusty and made some very silly mistakes during deployment, not to mention contemplating taking the fight to an army of Grey Knight death dealing monsters, so any advice anyone might offer to prevent me getting my face kicked in again would be much appreciated!
Thankyou

PS- My local club armies-wise reads like Matt Ward's fan club so simply starting out by playing against a less forbidding army isn't much of an option.

[Sly]

1: War Walkers with Scatter Lasers do a good job against Grey Knights as they can outrange them and keep doing damage while backing out of range.
2: You definitely do not need or want 10 Fire Dragons in one unit. They will destroy any vehicle that they get to shoot at, but then you're trading a lot of points for one vehicle. At that point level I wouldn't run more than 5, and they may not even be necessary in general since vehicles are easier to break.
3: Swooping Hawks have an important place in your army: keeping the army's seat on the shelf. Seriously, they are bad. Only real use for them is to keep using Skyleap and their grenade packs for them so that they survive until the end of the game, then they may be able to contest an objective from a weak backfield troop.
4: Eldrad is a lot of points to put into HQ at that point level. He's good, but sinking that top-heavy is a little iffy.
5: If you're willing to bring in Allies, I find the DE Baron with a squad of Beastmasters cover any CC weakness pretty well, and are fast enough to get across the field against many shooty armies. Baron, 2-4 Beastmasters with ravens, 2 squads of DE Warriors (minimum size) in Raiders, and 1 Void Raven. That helps cover your anti-air, gives you some Lance weapons so you don't have to take expensive sacrifice squads against Land Raiders, and gives you some more scoring units, in addition to the CC support. Definitely better than the Fire Dragons/Swooping Hawks combination.

[DrLove42]

Also side note....Vindicare Assassins can't destroy wave serpents. Wave Serpents only allow one dice, so even the turbo pen thing can only get S9....

As for your final question....Eldar don't work. Sadly. Mine are in storage pending a new codex. 95% of units are overcosted and underpowered. Then playing against GK, you have to play and roll perfectly to have a chance.

The only units still worth taking from the codex are Pathfinders (2+ cover save in ruins, 2 chances to rend), War Walkers and small Dragon Units. Keep the farseer with a snipers, keeping him with a 2+ cover save in ruins, take 2 divination powers, trade 1 in for the reroll to hit and hope you get the ignore cover one. Ignore cover, rerolling to hits on 10 pathfinders can kill 4-5 terminators a turn.

The only advice i can give is get a Warp Hunter from FW if your group allows. Large blast, barrage, wounds on 2+ Ap2 will put some hurt down hard.

[Sly]

As a note, when shooting at Termies, "ignore cover" is not greatly relevant as GKs will usually have 5+ cover or 5+ Invuln. You would prefer to use Guide to make their shots more accurate (and given the Ranger/Pathfinder rules, more likely to get AP2).

I didn't mention Warp Hunters, but they are good if you're allowed to take them.

An interesting idea against GK is that Wraithlords can Challenge. With S4, most GK units can't harm them, and the Daemonhammer is often on a squad champion who can be challenged out. At only 120 for a Scatter/Shuriken build, a Wraithlord is pretty solid against GKs both in shooting and in melee. They can try to Hammerhand, but that's why you have Runes of Warding on the table.

[DrLove42]

If youre going to CC your wraithlord you need a Sword. Only 2 attacks base you need to know they're going to hit.

Ignore cover can be good if you're;

Shooting that Vindicare
Things in ruins (a 5++ save is better than a 4+ for you)
Anything that don't have a invuln save (like strike squads)

[cebalrai]

The only advice i can give is get a Warp Hunter from FW if your group allows. Large blast, barrage, wounds on 2+ Ap2 will put some hurt down hard.

My group allows FW and although I have a Warp Hunter, I've never taken it against GK. What I take is a squadron of Hornets and Wasps for more S6 death or even a Nightwing. Due to the low GK model count it's usually pretty easy to deep strike into an advantageous position.


The only units still worth taking from the codex are Pathfinders (2+ cover save in ruins, 2 chances to rend), War Walkers and small Dragon Units. Keep the farseer with a snipers, keeping him with a 2+ cover save in ruins, take 2 divination powers, trade 1 in for the reroll to hit and hope you get the ignore cover one. Ignore cover, rerolling to hits on 10 pathfinders can kill 4-5 terminators a turn.

Termis get a 5+ cover save so I'm not sure why you're suggesting going all-out to deny them a cover save. :confused:


As for your final question....Eldar don't work. Sadly. Mine are in storage pending a new codex. 95% of units are overcosted and underpowered. Then playing against GK, you have to play and roll perfectly to have a chance.

I disagree. While the costs are off on some units *coughs*-Shining Spears-*coughs*, I think much of the codex is still a fair value.

Regarding your claim of having to play perfectly and roll perfectly to have a chance against GK, I couldn't disagree more. I'll even go as far as to suggest that all things considered, GK are a very favorable match for Eldar. Eldar are my only army and I've played probably 10-15 matches vs GK and can't recall losing one ever unless they load up on IG allies. If I've lost against GK it's been a long time. Here's why Eldar shouldn't fear GK:

1) They have low model count.
2) We have the potential for extremely high wound volume.
3) #1 multiplied by #2 = Advantage Eldar

Always remember, as Eldar WE get to pick how the battle flows, not our opponents. The OP's problem isn't because the Eldar 'dex can't handle GK. It's because he's fighting like the Knights want him to fight. He's trying to beat the Knights at the Knights' own game when he should be dictating that it be an Eldar fight.

- Let his stupid Termis and Paladins advance and then send their butts packing to the Warp with your D-Cannon artillery. That thing is a freaking Grey Knight broom. You should even consider a fortune/guide Farseer and Warlock in the unit and hopefully putting it in ruins on like the second floor. And if he reaches hard to kill it, well make sure he overreaches and pays dearly. You know those nice neatly-packed formations his Termis are deep striking in? Yeah, think about it...

- Bladestorm the heck out of him then assault with Fortuned Dire Avengers with SS+Defend and smirk as his Termis kill 0-1 Dire Avengers per round.

- Bring 6 War Walkers, 6 Vypers, and a Fire Prism (which scoffs at those silly 2-wound models) and see how low his low model count army is feeling after 70 S6 shots in the first turn (plus the rest of your army's shooting).

- Pathfinders are good vs GK but only in multiple small units. The idea of making a huge unit of 10 plus Farseer isn't going to work very well when he shunts a Dreadknight up to you and flamers them all off the map with no save.

- Consider cheap scatter laser (or Starcannon) Guardians on back-line objectives in cover or ruins. Go to ground when shot at. If he wants to waste time long-balling Guardians in the back that are going to get 4+ or 3+ cover saves, well then good. If he deep-strikes Termis nearby, shoot them. 10 Guardians will reliably kill a Termi and you have almost a 20% chance to bag two of them, with a Starcannon the odds of bagging two are even better.

- Don't use Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons are very good, but they're not what you want against GK. Remember, he WANTS you to advance on him and fight on his own terms. Resist the urge to do it. In fact, minimize your aspect warriors in general, especially ones in Serpents. Dire Avengers are decent against GK but if you go that route put them in a Serpent maybe in reserve.

- Consider a Harlequin counter-assault unit. They get to sit in cover with a 2+ save with the Death Jester firing a nice rending weapon, then if the GK advance or deep strike something, well a 7-Harly unit will hit first and kill an average of 3.11 Terminators with a nice low bell-curve that gives you about a 39% chance to kill four. And you have three characters in the unit that can soak up challenges. Usually it's the second half of the game by the time my Harlies are ready to counter-assault so I have little to lose by issuing/accepting a challenge with my Death Jester. He doesn't rend anyway (despite the omg huge grim reaper scythe) so you don't lose as much by getting him into a challenge.

- Always have a Farseer with runes of warding. I wouldn't bother with Eldrad outside of a larger point game. Keep your Farseer cheap and toss around Fortune to control which unit he can't threaten.


I hope this helps a bit. Again, I don't really think we have a ton to fear from GK - other armies do but not us. Hopefully you can get back to fearing IG now :)

[AM-254]

Thanks for the tips DrLove42 and Sly. I have a couple of wraithlords knocking about so I'll try to put them to good use and It'll be nice to field my rangers again as they were the first unit I ever bought.
As an aside, do you think that Dire Avengers are worth taking in 6th? Would I be better off taking the cheaper defender guardian squads and arming them with star cannon platforms?

[DrLove42]

I don't think any troops outside Pathfinders are worth taking. Maybe Bikes. The 18" range on Avengers is nice, but 12" for guardians means they may not even do anything before being rolled over in combat.

If taking guardians stick to Scatter Lasers. BS3 means you won't hit half the time, so maximising shots will help. Starcannon is OK, you might kill a MEQ/TEQ.

Its hard to warrant them normally, but maybe look at Dark Reapers. Lots of AP3 fire, and with the correct Exarch a double shot missile launcher, that hits on 2+.

Eldars weakness it the few half way decent units are all in Heavy.

[AM-254]

Thanks for the advice. I'll have to see about obtaining a D-cannon artilery piece. I've rarely seen them used but perhaps I can provide a few terminators with a nasty supprise! I'd be interested to read any thoughts any of you might have on wraithguard in larger point games.

Also, I only have the one war walker :( Would warp spiders with their assault2 str6 weapons, 3+ armor and movement in the assault phase be a viable alternative?

[DrLove42]

The reason everyone says Warwalkers is that for roughly the same points you can have 3 guys, firing 24 S6 shots a turn at huge range. Warp Spiders are awesome, but even with an accurate deepstrike you likely get counter assaulted and wiped the next turn.

Wraithguard.....eh....expensive but durable, the gun will mess with MEQ/TEQ but they again just die to easy.

[rpricew]

Take a DE Baron with 2++ Invulnerable save, place him him in the front of the Wraithguard unit with a Farseer and Warlock. Cast Fortune on the unit and it has a re-rollable 2++ with majority T6, D-cannon shots and it has a 4+ re-rollable cover save if necessary. Fill in with cheap scoring, war walkers, maybe some Hornets from FW and laugh at all of the GK wasted shooting on the Wraithstar

[spaceman91]

The first time i ever saw a wraithguard unit it was a full 10 "man" with a warlock. He didnt even get to use them. Turn one my chapter master drop his plate on them and wiped all but one off the board. I lost the game because i spent it in tears of laughter. Just remember that of you ever put that really expensive unit down. Before anyone asks why would you take the master, well i had 25pts left over and nowhere to spend them so my captain got promoted.

[DrLove42]

Take a DE Baron with 2++ Invulnerable save, place him him in the front of the Wraithguard unit with a Farseer and Warlock. Cast Fortune on the unit and it has a re-rollable 2++ with majority

Yeah this is then a 7-900 point unit that will roll over and die in combat, which with an effective 12" range will happen quick.

That and it was FAQ'd that it doesn't work as Eldar powers don't affect Eldar

[cebalrai]

The first time i ever saw a wraithguard unit it was a full 10 "man" with a warlock. He didnt even get to use them. Turn one my chapter master drop his plate on them and wiped all but one off the board. I lost the game because i spent it in tears of laughter. Just remember that of you ever put that really expensive unit down. Before anyone asks why would you take the master, well i had 25pts left over and nowhere to spend them so my captain got promoted.

You wiped them that easily when they had a rerollable cover save? Or your opponent was just running them unprotected?

[spaceman91]

You wiped them that easily when they had a rerollable cover save? Or your opponent was just running them unprotected?

they were stood in the open behind a building( if that makes sense ). No cover as it comes from the centre hole, not from him. I will point out this was my very last game of 5th before we go any further.

[cebalrai]

they were stood in the open behind a building( if that makes sense ). No cover as it comes from the centre hole, not from him. I will point out this was my very last game of 5th before we go any further.

The Warlock provides cover for the entire unit. Then the Farseer gives them the reroll.

[spaceman91]

The Warlock provides cover for the entire unit. Then the Farseer gives them the reroll.

dosent 1. The warlock need to choose that as his power and 2. The farseer needs to have cast one of his powers, i foget which it is. This happened my turn one before he gets to do anything.

[DrLove42]

Yep. Warlocks need to choose their powers. Conceal is the 5+ cover (and its not even the best one). I always take the +1 Init and WS one. wraithguard always end up in CC, may as well use it

[spaceman91]

Yep. Warlocks need to choose their powers. Conceal is the 5+ cover (and its not even the best one). I always take the +1 Init and WS one. wraithguard always end up in CC, may as well use it

yay im not as stupid as i look. I couldn't be.

[Lost Vyper]

I can manage with my friends GK and GK/BA combos pretty nicely. Teleporting 30" and Dredknights are the new headache, but i go in ork-style, MORE DAKKA!!!
3 x WW´s (2xSL´s) + 3 x Hornets (these i switch around, 2 x PL or 2 xSL) wipe the board from the Termies. I have 2 x 5 Pathfinders to take care of the Troops and DA´s Bladestorming away. Flamers are the biggest threat, cos they´ll dispose ANYTHING. Also Dark Reapers with Exarch, Crack Shot and AP3 weaponry is nice (if i have a slot for them thou...) But as was said by the very nice advises before me, SHOOT,SHOOT,SHOOT, if you are in CC, it´s basically over...if you meet the same opponent frequently (as i do), SWITCH THE LIST around, a lot...if you have the time, put the next match on the BATTLEREPORTS, so we can see what´s happening! Happy times killing Gay...sorry, Grey Knights

[cebalrai]

yay im not as stupid as i look. I couldn't be.

DrLove might opt for another power, but the standard power taken is Conceal while keeping the unit in range of a Farseer with Fortune. Or better yet, put the Farseer in the unit. That way it's silly hard to kill. And there should be a counter assault unit nearby such as Harlequins, alternately run the unit with Karandras to grant the unit stealth and provide 6-7 power fist attacks at WS 7.

You were playing against a really bad opponent if he couldn't find a way to get his Wraithguard a save of some sort.

[spaceman91]

He was and isn't a bad player. I never asked him what power he took because when the warlock is removed from the table turn one it doesn't matter to much. Round here people dont take things like that anymore ( IE, wraithguard or warlock ) just because of this exact reason. It would have been the same story if it was a lucky shot from a russ. On a side note i think they are too expensive for what they are( wraithguard not russ ). Yer the gun is good but im still not a fan.

Edit: i would like to say sorry to the poster for high jacking this thread.

[Sly]

You were playing against a really bad opponent if he couldn't find a way to get his Wraithguard a save of some sort.

Remember that when a unit depends upon a single 1-wound model for a save, given Precision Shots and Barrage-sniping, there are plenty of lists that can put specific wounds into the target model then finish off the squad. In this case, an IG army with Ratlings (rare) or Griffons (common) could snipe the Warlock first to remove Conceal, then blast into the squad with either Battle Cannons or my usual preference, the 5xPlasma Cannon Russ. Without any applicable save, the Fortune doesn't help. You can keep the entire squad or almost the entire squad in cover to protect against this, but if you leave enough models in the open it becomes worthwhile to just use Focus Fire and remove those models. At 35 pts each, even 3-4 Wraithguard are worth a round of shooting from a Russ.

I would consider running several Jetbike squads, and alternating Turboboosting 1 of them in front any Wraithguard squad on foot, if the enemy has any character-sniping abilities. You don't want to go from a 5+ re-rollable cover to just removing 35pt models.

[AM-254]

No problem Spaceman91, I like a good anecdote.

[cebalrai]

Remember that when a unit depends upon a single 1-wound model for a save, given Precision Shots and Barrage-sniping, there are plenty of lists that can put specific wounds into the target model then finish off the squad. In this case, an IG army with Ratlings (rare) or Griffons (common) could snipe the Warlock first to remove Conceal, then blast into the squad with either Battle Cannons or my usual preference, the 5xPlasma Cannon Russ. Without any applicable save, the Fortune doesn't help. You can keep the entire squad or almost the entire squad in cover to protect against this, but if you leave enough models in the open it becomes worthwhile to just use Focus Fire and remove those models. At 35 pts each, even 3-4 Wraithguard are worth a round of shooting from a Russ.

I would consider running several Jetbike squads, and alternating Turboboosting 1 of them in front any Wraithguard squad on foot, if the enemy has any character-sniping abilities. You don't want to go from a 5+ re-rollable cover to just removing 35pt models.


He said it was a 5th edition game. The Warlock should not have been taken as a casualty right off the bat.

[spaceman91]

In 5th for each hit, you had to put a wound on a dude. If you score ONLY one hit on each model in the unit, there is only one way to dish it out.
Eg: I fire a frag missile at a five man unit. I roll a hit. That is five guys hit. Just say i wound all five. There is only one way to dish it out. Each bloke has to take one. The four bods all roll as one because they are all the same, three die. Now sarg has to take his. He failed so thats all but one dead with the special dude dying.

[Da Gargoyle]

Finally I am back on the boards. I have skimmed through most of the thread and taken note of the more interesting comments but I note that nobody has mentioned the less common options from the codex. I use at least two units of storm guardians which you can arm with fusion guns or flamers. Complete with a warlock they are very dangerous to tanks and skimmers. I have also built a unit of warlocks to accompany the farseer. Primarily armed with singing spears they are another deadly anti tank, you can use multple powers and I have a jet bike squadron or mount them in a wave serpent.

The other issue is getting used to the new rules re-vehicles. I used to turbo accross the table with two wave serpents and dismount before they moved next turn which meant you could assault. Now there is strictly no assault from any of my vehicles. When ever I faced GK though one of my storm guardian squads carried two flamers for that pesky assasin. He can't claim cover against them. It is a choice for the warlock accompanying the stormies though. Destructor is good for softening up assault targets where as enhance beefs the stormies up.

Other troops include A wraith lord with star cannon sword and flamers, Dragons not usually with the exarch these days, pathfinders, scorpions and a guardian squad with star cannon or scatter laser. Oh yeagh and an Autarch with fusion gun scorpion sword and mandiblasters

[cebalrai]

In 5th for each hit, you had to put a wound on a dude. If you score ONLY one hit on each model in the unit, there is only one way to dish it out.
Eg: I fire a frag missile at a five man unit. I roll a hit. That is five guys hit. Just say i wound all five. There is only one way to dish it out. Each bloke has to take one. The four bods all roll as one because they are all the same, three die. Now sarg has to take his. He failed so thats all but one dead with the special dude dying.

It's an 11-man unit of T6 models. How many wounds do you think we're talking about here that can possibly make it to the 11th man?

[Dave Mcturk]

never had any success with walkers ... imo ... in 6th ... with only two hull point and bs 3 ... they are not as good as spiderz... the major difference is lack of 4+ cover ... mb try 9 behind a defence line ... for a giggle ...

[AM-254]

So how exactly might the Eldar go about destroying godhammer land raiders in 6th?
Last time he had a squad of four jokaro so the sheer volume of lascannon fire makes me doubt the survivability of wraithlords and fire prisms at range.

[AM-254]

Also, has anyone tried using farseer with the invisibility power from the rulebook and a warlock with conceal in a unit?
It strikes me such a unit would be very difficult to shoot and might be able to act as a good bullet magnet to distract incoming fire which would otherwise hit the allimportant heavy support choices.

[Lost Vyper]

So how exactly might the Eldar go about destroying godhammer land raiders in 6th?
Last time he had a squad of four jokaro so the sheer volume of lascannon fire makes me doubt the survivability of wraithlords and fire prisms at range.
Aegis-Line, Icarus (Fire Dragon Exarch with Crack Shot/Tank Hunters) and some bright lance fire from the cover. 4+for the Walkers and infantry also (2+ if they´ll go to ground)

[cebalrai]

never had any success with walkers ... imo ... in 6th ... with only two hull point and bs 3 ... they are not as good as spiderz... the major difference is lack of 4+ cover ... mb try 9 behind a defence line ... for a giggle ...

For the price of 3 Scatter Walkers you only get 6 Spiders w/exarch though. The WWs average about 12 hits while the Spiders will average about 9. And War Walkers behind cover are going to be more durable to most shooting and they can fight at range. Spiders need to get up close to fight effectively where they risk being in rapid fire, flamer, and assault rage.