Fear of a Woman Warrior

[YorkNecromancer]

Great article. Had to share, as it's food for thought.

http://uk.gamespot.com/features/fear-of-a-woman-warrior-6404142/

[eldargal]

That is an excellent article.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. There is also the solid argument that the women in Aliens were so masculine it's easy to forget they were women.

Likely going to cause some consternation, but not really seeing the big deal here. Art deals in stereotypes. Always has done. Occasionally it challenges them, but eventually goes right back to embracing them.

[Denzark]

If women are equal to men, then men are equal to women as well. This means both are equally as valuable in any given situation. If they are therefore interchangeable, a 100% male USCMC squad is eqaully as valid as a 100% female USCMC squad.

I suppose this is slightly different from real life, where it is obviously stupid for any given job to represent all possible elements of society in terms of breakdown of employees, versus the best person for the job in open and honest competition. In computer games, it depends on several things.

First, the writers/developers need to want female characters. Would an uplift of female characters require an uplift of female developers? If so, females need to want to get into the computer game industry.

Then they need the customers to want them - after all that is who buys the game. So, do customers wnat more femmes in games? If not, is that because most gamers (I don't know the demograhics) are not females? Are more female gamers needed to fuel the demand?

Should I be upset because the Alien Queen busy laying eggs in this game, isn't an Alien King?

And actually, Ferro and Vasquez are pretty ineffectual in the film. Of course Ripley rocks, but she isn't a marine - the whole point of this game.

[Wolfshade]

It isn't really anything new though is it.
In any first person perspective game does the sex of my character matter? In Doom does it matter if the marine is male or female? Porbably not. I would agree with the article that for the most part the gender is irrelevant as it has no effect on the playability so why would it matter if it had internal or external plumbing?

I think the only game that I have played where gender is more than an issue of how your sprite looks like is in Fallout, and in that some npcs reacted differently depending on what gender you were, but even in fallout 2 it didn't change anything you could still be an adult star or have a same sex marriage if you wished. You end up doing stereotypical things which aren't good.

- "How shall we distinguish between male and female characters?"
- "Well, women are generally weaker than men, so well drop some strength points, but boost their charisma points as people react more favourably to women"

Sigh.

In fact it is quite hard to get any meaningful reaction to genders in games.

I prefer strategy games in which case I am me playing in my own lupine ways and any perceived gender is irrelevant.

[eldargal]

If women are equal to men, then men are equal to women as well. This means both are equally as valuable in any given situation. If they are therefore interchangeable, a 100% male USCMC squad is eqaully as valid as a 100% female USCMC squad.
False equivalence. When 90% of video game characters are male bringing up equality as an excuse not to encourage developers to add more female characters isn't particularly compelling.

40-50% of gamers are female depending on the country and type of game. I don't accept that you necessarily need female developers to have strong female characters, though more female developers would certainly be a good thing.


Should I be upset because the Alien Queen busy laying eggs in this game, isn't an Alien King?
It is called queen because of the similarity to queen bees not because it is sexually female.

[Kirsten]

good female characters are great to see, and it must be noted that in games like fallout, mass effect etc. where you can make a character of either gender many male gamers play as female characters too. it is not just women wanting more women in games.

Aliens is certainly a game that would suit a good mix of men and women, Gears of War I don't mind the ratio because Anya and Sam kick ***, the male characters are awesome too, and the universe is not set up specifically with an equal mix of men and women in the army. If the characters are good I don't care too much. Modern Warfare for example it makes sense to have no female soldiers because it is trying to be realistic ish and there are currently no frontline service women, obviously that has changed now in the US I think.

[Denzark]

I just can't see why developers should be encouraged to develop more female characters, as opposed to more good (ie well developed, interesting, engaging) characters. The demographic 'female' could be replaced by anything else: Jewish, gay, one legged, congenital heart defect - and be equally as meaningless in the context of a game.

Computer Gaming is an essentially selfish activity. I acknowledge I have absolutely no knowledge of MMOs, so I don't know how 'clans' sacrifice self to the needs of the team there. I do know that clans in the FPS I play online, do cooperate - but how much is that becuase the sum of the parts allows the individual to rack up kills more easily, as opposed to the joys of working as a team, I wouldn't care to guess.

That being said, if gamers themselves don't care about the character, becuase game play is king (how many of us are still playing original X-Com???) what benefits are there to more female characters? The geeks who made this new aliens game were probably gobsmacked when having lovingly recreated pulse rifles, Hadley's Hope, xenomorphs etc, someone piped up and said 'dude we need more marines with boobies'.

Not having women characters is not the same as saying: 'Women are not interesting or relevant in the forum in which the game exists'. But looking down a list of the top 10 selling PC games ever, to the best of my knowledge, the amount of female protagonists against femles to be found in reality in that field (ie frontline warfare, mediaeval politics, whatever) is about right.

[eldargal]

They are being encouraged to develop good female characters, that was the point of the article.:p The author actually points out how many of the female characters we do get are rubbish. The difference compared to those other examples is that women are more than half the population. Yet we get treated like we are unimportant. We want more good characters, we want more of them to be female because there is no valid reason why they shouldn't be. Developers are effectively ignoring 40-50% of the demographic not including men who like to see more female characters too.

Ideally there would be a nice, like Mass Effect and similar games.

Exactly, people play the games they want to play and they have a right to characters that appeal to them. This includes female characters. This is being ignored by an industry that seems trapped in the early 1990s when it comes to gender issues. Women are half hte population and nearly half the gaming population yet we have to put up with characters, male and female, designed to appeal solely to men.

Why can't we have good gameplay and strong female characters?

Video games aren't reality. Why is it that it is fine to have impossibly muscle clad brutes doing impossible things while taking impossible amounts of punishment fighting impossible foes but whenever someone suggest maybe having a male-female ratio that is more equal all of a sudden 'realism' becomes an issue?


The geeks who made this new aliens game were probably gobsmacked when having lovingly recreated pulse rifles, Hadley's Hope, xenomorphs etc, someone piped up and said 'dude we need more marines with boobies'.
I bet they were, which rather proves the point given that the main character of the films upon which the book was based was a woman and that there were two female marines in the film. White male developers being clueless isn't much of a defense.

[Wolfshade]

I play the original X-COM or TFtD when I want a challenge.

Top 10 selling PC games:
1. The Sims 2 - 20 million - 2004
2. The Sims - 16 million - 2000
3. Diablo 3 - 12 million - 2012
4. Half-Life 2 - 12 million - 2004
5. StarCraft - 11 million - 1998
6. Skyrim - 10 million - 2011
7. The Sims 3 - 10 million - 2009
8. Minecraft - 9.4 million - 2011
9. Half-Life - 9.3 million - 1998
10. Guild War Prophecies - 6.5 million - 2005

I think half life games are the only ones where you are mandated as a male character.

[eldargal]

So the top selling games are (mostly)games where you can play as a female character? Gosh, maybe that is because they appeal to nearly double the audience or something...:p

[Wolfshade]

Does the sex of the character actually matter in any of those games?

[eldargal]

Does the sex of the character actually matter in any of those games?
Not particularly, it's personal preference which really is the point. These games should reflect the preferences of the people who play them, not just default to 'white male mode'. It's why I prefer RPGs which let me make the character I want. It is just a bit disheartening that when a game DOES restrict your to a pre-made character nine times out of ten it is a male. It is one reason I'm looking forward to Tomb Raider.

[Wolfshade]

Oh I certainly hear what you are saying, but for me most of the time I may as well be an androgomus blob. The gender is utterly irrelevant.

For historical games like Crusader Kings it makes sense that you generally play as a male.

What I would prefer is where the gender choice is an important game concept and not just the difference in dialogue between "Hello Sir" "Hello Madam"

[eldargal]

Well it isn't like anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be male characters or that there should always be a choice, even. Also you can still have strong female characters even if the gender of the player character is irrelevent. In SCII, for example, as far as I was concerned I was a female companion of Raynors directing his forces and some of those forces were female, which was nice. That was all that was required because it is a strategy game. For an RPG though I really think there should be a choice and the story should reflect it meaningfully like in Mass Effect.

Incidentally just so you know I'm not making it up, here is the Entertainment Software Association survey of 2011 (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf) which states that 42% of gamers (in the US) are female. Up 2% from the year before. It varies from country to country, here in Britain it is a little higher I think and in Australia I saw a survey claim it was 48%.

[Wolfshade]

Yes and I think some of the ways that female characters have been brought into games or characters who are from a different ethinicity to the rest of the cast jarr irritatingly. It seems that they went oh we need to include one of those into the mix for pc reasons and it just not very well done. It should be seamless.

That being said you have the standard concersn that you can have "normal" male characters but the female counter parts are over sexualised, or of rediculuous proportions that would result in them having back issues. How refreshing it is to see a character like Ellie from Borderlands 2, but still ...

[imperialpower]

I think that Yes it is a good thing when games give you a choice of male and female characters but I wouldn't like to see game designers been forced to put things into games just to be pc, the one thing I really hate is when people think that by forcing someone to do certain things just to try and please every single person is somehow the right thing to do. At the end of the day though it is a product and if they realise that it will make them more money to give gamers more choice then they obviously will.

[eldargal]

No one is talking about forcing developers into doing anything, all we want is to show them that they are stuck in the past. It isn't sound business sense and it doesn't reflect the video game demographic.


Ha! I just checked the 2012 survey (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/esa_ef_2012.pdf) and the proportion of women gamers has jumped to 47%.

Now according to this study (http://dmitriwilliams.com/VirtualCensusFinal.pdf) 85% of video game characters are male. 68% are white. When you take into account primary characters it jumps to 89% male.

[Wolfshade]

Several things, firstly there is no indication of the methodology used to conduct this survey and I am always wary of such things. Secondly, it doesn't really drill down into the demographics that I would like to see. I recall reading an article that suggested women tended to play flash (social) games more than males, it would be interesting to see if that comparison was made, after all someone who plays farmville is not what I would class as a gamer (obviously because I am a l33t 5n0b), nor would I count someone playing minesweeper or solitare/freecell

[imperialpower]

[QUOTE=eldargal;287269]No one is talking about forcing developers into doing anything, all we want is to show them that they are stuck in the past. It isn't sound business sense and it doesn't reflect the video game demographic.QUOTE]

That's why I said 'what I wouldn't like to see'.:)

[Denzark]

Exactly, people play the games they want to play and they have a right to characters that appeal to them. This includes female characters. This is being ignored by an industry that seems trapped in the early 1990s when it comes to gender issues. Women are half hte population and nearly half the gaming population yet we have to put up with characters, male and female, designed to appeal solely to men.

Why should 'gender issues' be forced onto an industry producing luxury items for the entertainment industry?

Video games aren't reality. Why is it that it is fine to have impossibly muscle clad brutes doing impossible things while taking impossible amounts of punishment fighting impossible foes but whenever someone suggest maybe having a male-female ratio that is more equal all of a sudden 'realism' becomes an issue?

If is not reality and it is escapism, why are more females needed?


I bet they were, which rather proves the point given that the main character of the films upon which the book was based was a woman and that there were two female marines in the film. White male developers being clueless isn't much of a defense.

The game is not about the films, its about USCMC and aliens duking it out. If you are playing in FPS mode, you can't tell if the Marine is bird or bloke. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more females in games, I'm not even playing devil's advocate. I just see no reason for an increase for any other reason that plot advancement/enchancement. Not some poxy social engineering advancing 'wimmin's issues'.

[Denzark]

PS there is some text in the middle of the quote last post - but work systems won't let me open to edit...

[Psychosplodge]

When it comes to a game where I can see the character I'd much rather spend 50 hours staring at a pixel female arse than a male one.
In RPGs it's still important for me to be able to chat up the ladies though...

[eldargal]

The game is not about the films, its about USCMC and aliens duking it out. If you are playing in FPS mode, you can't tell if the Marine is bird or bloke. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more females in games, I'm not even playing devil's advocate. I just see no reason for an increase for any other reason that plot advancement/enchancement. Not some poxy social engineering advancing 'wimmin's issues'.

But there were female Marines in the films, so why shouldn't there be female marines in the game? Given the films focus on 'wimmins issues' it is all the more shocking that the developers seemed to forgot. Though to be frank given the colossal screw up that is Aliens: Colonial Marines the status of female marines is the least of it.

It isn't about social engineering or 'wimmins issues' though, it is about games reflecting the tastes and wishes of nearly half their demographic instead of being overwhelmingly skewed towards white males. I mean we don't need spcial engineering, the demographic is already there. In a few years I would be surprised if it isn't 50/50. The problem is that the industry is not reflecting its own customers adequately.


Several things, firstly there is no indication of the methodology used to conduct this survey and I am always wary of such things. Secondly, it doesn't really drill down into the demographics that I would like to see. I recall reading an article that suggested women tended to play flash (social) games more than males, it would be interesting to see if that comparison was made, after all someone who plays farmville is not what I would class as a gamer (obviously because I am a l33t 5n0b), nor would I count someone playing minesweeper or solitare/freecell
That is true (you could try contacting them to see if they have more information somewhere) but it matches other more detailed studies I've seen in general (the 42% figure from 2011 anyway). I've seen studies say that women prefer 'social' games too the problem is what they define as 'social' as one study included MMOs in the category. Multiplayer games too I think.

[Denzark]

Clearly that half of the demographic is not being overly vocal about it then. In fact if that 50% is anywhere near correct, then developers have reached that whilst maintaining the stauts quo - where is their incentive to change?

[Kirsten]

The game is not about the films, its about USCMC and aliens duking it out. If you are playing in FPS mode, you can't tell if the Marine is bird or bloke. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against more females in games, I'm not even playing devil's advocate. I just see no reason for an increase for any other reason that plot advancement/enchancement. Not some poxy social engineering advancing 'wimmin's issues'.

your entire argument is invalid though, you could just as easily say why not increase the number of female characters? Your argument seems to be 'why bother?' Plenty of people do care, it would be nice to see a more balanced ratio. Plenty of games could have a female lead, or a choice, and those games would be more appealing to a lot of people. It isn't massively important, but it makes a difference and it would help the industry. I bet a better portrayal of women in games would help with a lot of the sexism and abuse people get over messages etc.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd say growing up is a better way to reduce the sexism and that.

In those being sexist. Not those its levied at.

[Kirsten]

well that would be ideal, but it clearly hasn't happened for some gamers well beyond the age it should have, so I have little hope

[Gotthammer]

where is their incentive to change?

They could make more money.

I mean women make up ~50% of the market, but (often largely anecdotal) evidence indicates that is largely in the more RPG / puzzle / sim type games. How many of these gamers could be convinced to come over to "male" games like CoD, Gears and so on if they felt more respected and represented by the titles? Maybe not a huge amount - but I know that I have no interest in Gears, GTA or others because my gaming time is limited and I'd rather spend it playing as a female character if I have the option.

To refer to Mass Effect, note that for the ME3 release they did the trailers featuring both BroShep and FemShep, and the collectors edition has both displayed, the release merch featuring both and so on. Pieces of merch featuring BroShep I own - 2 (a shirt and the art book). Pieces featuring FemShep - 6 (including the limited edition snowboard because it had FemShep). Had they not released this merch or, to go back to the root of it, made the decision to have FemShep as an option, they wouldn't have got that money from me, the money for the games & DLC, or more as I've talked two other people into getting into Mass Effect who wouldn't have otherwise.


As a slight tangent, I used the term respected there as it is similar in a way to advertising a product. If a company promotes things by treating everyone equally or at least acknowledging that women are not solely there to look pretty for men, it's going to have a broader appeal than something just aimed at men. This sort of thing is happening with little kids toys already. See the gender neutral Swedish Toys 'r' Us catalogues (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/29/highlights-from-the-gender-neutral-swedish-toys-r-us-catalogue/). As a current example Nerf previewed an upcoming line of guns aimed at girls (Nerf Rebelle) - and Nerf guns are basically the pinnacle of "boys toys".

Whilst this may seem rather loosely connected, the fact is games essentially advertise themselves through their characters, so when there's a game like Duke Nukem Forever depicting women the way it does, it is a huge turn off. On the other hand Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout etc all immediately appeal to me because I can play as a female character regardless of game play differences. Of course some games like Far Cry 3 or Halo, where you are locked in a character don't bother me because the game play is slick enough / they're written well enough and have mostly believable female supporting characters who aren't just eye candy or whose personalities aren't defined just by being female (usually being desperately in love with the PC for no explainable reason) that it doesn't worry me.
Of course I'd be much more a fan of Halo if you could play as Master Chief Jane-117, but that's probably why I love Mass Effect over Halo even though they're actually pretty similar in a lot of respects.

An example of how having a female character, even a silent one, can change the game is Portal 2. Spoiler:

The main character, Chell, never speaks herself, but over the course of the game (and using some of the additional sources), you can deduce that GlaDos is the digitised personality of Chell's mother, which is why GlaDos stops trying to kill her and releases her at the end. I guess you could argue that the story would work just as well if Chell was a man, but it plays on the trope of mother-daughter dynamics much more effectively because of her being a her.

White text above, highlight to read.




Why should 'gender issues' be forced onto an industry producing luxury items for the entertainment industry?

Because women shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable by the imagery on display when they walk into a game store? Because the fact that something has traditionally been one way doesn't make it right? Because women are people too and they might like to be portrayed as such rather than just eye candy? Because it's good for girls growing up to have a variety of role models who can show them that they don't have to fit the standard mould if they don't want to? Because the industry not being a bunch of sexist a-holes is a good thing?

This is, of course, getting into the gamer and developer culture that is sometimes actively hostile to women - see the recent fighting game tournament where a female gamer was copping abuse from her own team, and when it was questioned the abuser defended his actions as part of gamer culture. It's all interconnected, it's not just the portrayal of women in the games themselves, but that's an obvious place to start and one that can start a trickle on effect and also legitimise gaming and remove the stigma often associated with it.

Also the developers claimed to be respecting the spirit and mythos of Aliens - which given the main character is female, and when you look at the core cast in regards to dialogue and screen time - Ripley, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, Newt, Gorman, Bishop and the guy from Mad about You - three out of eight are female. The fact that they claimed to be carrying the spirit of this movie and didn't think that they should have women in it doesn't seem problematic?
Its like saying I'm making a game that respects the spirit of the Blues Brothers and only putting in musical numbers at the last minute.

[Deadlift]

I just finished the recent xcom game which randomises the sex of your squad, not until the very last mission do any squad members really become important to the game. You could be forgiven in thinking that the hero in the final mission would be an American male jar head. Nope mine was an Indian woman, toting a plasma rifle and awesome psychic abilties. She was awesome.
As for strong women in real life, I may pretend to be a bit of a sexist but I freely admit to others my mrs is stronger in character than me (never will tell her that though) and whilst I am physically bigger and stronger than her, her years of figure skating have made her more flexible and fitter than I could ever hope to be.
I use her as an example to say I suppose personally I find strong women far more attractive than the meek wall flower types.
As for the Aliens movies, Ripley was awesome as a heroine.
But then I always had a soft spot for 80s Sigorny Weaver.

[Wildeybeast]

so when there's a game like Duke Nukem Forever depicting women the way it does, it is a huge turn off.

Without taking anything away from your point, as a man I found Duke deeply offensive to my gender for suggesting that anyone would want to be like him. Though I found the fact it was utter sh1t to be far more offensive.

To me something like Borderlands strikes a nice balance. There you have tough manly men put on an equal footing with sexy but equally strongly written female characters. You can choose which to play as in single player and if you have friends you get all of them on screen at once. No need for arbitrary 'equal rights representation' nonsense, just a fair balance of characters. Though I have a nostalgic soft spot for the Xcom approach to equality; make all the characters hideously blocky and barely recognisable as human and then no one can complain.

[Deadlift]

Without taking anything away from your point, as a man I found Duke deeply offensive to my gender for suggesting that anyone would want to be like him. Though I found the fact it was utter sh1t to be far more offensive.

To me something like Borderlands strikes a nice balance. There you have tough manly men put on an equal footing with sexy but equally strongly written female characters. You can choose which to play as in single player and if you have friends you get all of them on screen at once. No need for arbitrary 'equal rights representation' nonsense, just a fair balance of characters. Though I have a nostalgic soft spot for the Xcom approach to equality; make all the characters hideously blocky and barely recognisable as human and then no one can complain.

You should the play the new xcom :)
As for Duke Nukem, I didn't find him offensive, just more absurd in a comical, nobody's really like this kind of way.

[Denzark]

your entire argument is invalid though, you could just as easily say why not increase the number of female characters? Your argument seems to be 'why bother?' Plenty of people do care, it would be nice to see a more balanced ratio. Plenty of games could have a female lead, or a choice, and those games would be more appealing to a lot of people. It isn't massively important, but it makes a difference and it would help the industry. I bet a better portrayal of women in games would help with a lot of the sexism and abuse people get over messages etc.

The problem Kirsten, is that no one has argued convincingly WHY their should be more women characters. To date, with everything said and in that article, you could substitute amost any noun/verb and it be an equally (in)valid argument - why not have more baldies in wheel chairs- surely E S Blofeld and Dr X aren't enough? If lots of people care, why is their not a massive popular movement about it, rather than niche articles? What guarantees that it would 'help the industry' - what, they could make more money and their marketeers and business experts making phone-number salaries remain blnd to this seam of gold?


They could make more money.

Fixed that for you. No guarantees - otherwise they would be doing it

I mean women make up ~50% of the market, but (often largely anecdotal) evidence indicates that is largely in the more RPG / puzzle / sim type games. How many of these gamers could be convinced to come over to "male" games like CoD, Gears and so on if they felt more respected and represented by the titles? Maybe not a huge amount - but I know that I have no interest in Gears, GTA or others because my gaming time is limited and I'd rather spend it playing as a female character if I have the option.

If women currently gaming RPG/Puzzle/Sim come over to 'male games', surely where they have left therefore makes less money? Or do you think it means they will buy both in the future? I don't think more people staring at a screen, or more time spent staring at a screen, is necessarily a good thing

To refer to Mass Effect, note that for the ME3 release they did the trailers featuring both BroShep and FemShep, and the collectors edition has both displayed, the release merch featuring both and so on. Pieces of merch featuring BroShep I own - 2 (a shirt and the art book). Pieces featuring FemShep - 6 (including the limited edition snowboard because it had FemShep). Had they not released this merch or, to go back to the root of it, made the decision to have FemShep as an option, they wouldn't have got that money from me, the money for the games & DLC, or more as I've talked two other people into getting into Mass Effect who wouldn't have otherwise.


As a slight tangent, I used the term respected there as it is similar in a way to advertising a product. If a company promotes things by treating everyone equally or at least acknowledging that women are not solely there to look pretty for men, it's going to have a broader appeal than something just aimed at men. This sort of thing is happening with little kids toys already. See the gender neutral Swedish Toys 'r' Us catalogues (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/29/highlights-from-the-gender-neutral-swedish-toys-r-us-catalogue/). As a current example Nerf previewed an upcoming line of guns aimed at girls (Nerf Rebelle) - and Nerf guns are basically the pinnacle of "boys toys".

Why would boys want to buy a nerf aimed aimed at girls? Why would girls who liked boys Nerf, want their own? Or is it actually aimed at Mummy paying for it? I on the flip side, wouldn't buy my lad something MARKETED as gender neutral - although stuff I buy this five year old may be gneder neutral in and of itself

Whilst this may seem rather loosely connected, the fact is games essentially advertise themselves through their characters, so when there's a game like Duke Nukem Forever depicting women the way it does, it is a huge turn off. On the other hand Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout etc all immediately appeal to me because I can play as a female character regardless of game play differences. Of course some games like Far Cry 3 or Halo, where you are locked in a character don't bother me because the game play is slick enough / they're written well enough and have mostly believable female supporting characters who aren't just eye candy or whose personalities aren't defined just by being female (usually being desperately in love with the PC for no explainable reason) that it doesn't worry me.
Of course I'd be much more a fan of Halo if you could play as Master Chief Jane-117, but that's probably why I love Mass Effect over Halo even though they're actually pretty similar in a lot of respects.

An example of how having a female character, even a silent one, can change the game is Portal 2. Spoiler:

The main character, Chell, never speaks herself, but over the course of the game (and using some of the additional sources), you can deduce that GlaDos is the digitised personality of Chell's mother, which is why GlaDos stops trying to kill her and releases her at the end. I guess you could argue that the story would work just as well if Chell was a man, but it plays on the trope of mother-daughter dynamics much more effectively because of her being a her.

White text above, highlight to read.





Because women shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable by the imagery on display when they walk into a game store? Because the fact that something has traditionally been one way doesn't make it right? Because women are people too and they might like to be portrayed as such rather than just eye candy? Because it's good for girls growing up to have a variety of role models who can show them that they don't have to fit the standard mould if they don't want to? Because the industry not being a bunch of sexist a-holes is a good thing?

Don't go into a store you are not comfortable with? If a bloke is not comforttable with the way a product portrays blokes, he can just as easily vote with his feet? Who says the industry is sexist, as opposed to (like geeks everywhere) just socially inept? Why should they be picked up on this?

This is, of course, getting into the gamer and developer culture that is sometimes actively hostile to women - see the recent fighting game tournament where a female gamer was copping abuse from her own team, and when it was questioned the abuser defended his actions as part of gamer culture. It's all interconnected, it's not just the portrayal of women in the games themselves, but that's an obvious place to start and one that can start a trickle on effect and also legitimise gaming and remove the stigma often associated with it.

Why should gamers need or want legitimising - that just offers legitimacy to a negative view of gaming, ie justifying it as sufficiently meriting denial by countering their argument.

Also the developers claimed to be respecting the spirit and mythos of Aliens - which given the main character is female, and when you look at the core cast in regards to dialogue and screen time - Ripley, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, Newt, Gorman, Bishop and the guy from Mad about You - three out of eight are female. The fact that they claimed to be carrying the spirit of this movie and didn't think that they should have women in it doesn't seem problematic?
Its like saying I'm making a game that respects the spirit of the Blues Brothers and only putting in musical numbers at the last minute.


As I said, I don't think they thought it either should or shouldn't have women in it. This is a SHOOTER. That discounts both the Ripley character and the Newt character (Ripley's main thing is not ranged combat - she is there as an adviser). Vasquez, was an insubordinate marine, who disobeyed orders and then placed her entire team at risk of nuclear detonation by firing AP rounds in a reactor. This then went Nova from collateral damage. Yes she was a strong character mentally and physically. But her attributes and successes were negligible - she and Drake would have been court-martialled had they been good enough to survive.

[Denzark]

I also note that, in the media links I can see in the original article, 2 out of the 6 massively newsworthy stories are entitled: 'Top 15 hottest wives and girlfriends of starting quarterbacks' and also '15 women who have dated the most athletes'.

So I suppose the author doesn't mind the principle of 'sex sells' if it is applied to a site where she can air her agenda...

[Wildeybeast]

You should the play the new xcom :)
As for Duke Nukem, I didn't find him offensive, just more absurd in a comical, nobody's really like this kind of way.

I was talking about the new Xcom. :D I really enjoyed my gender-challenged Russian Sniper destroying everything in her path then saving the day with her psychic powers.

That was exactly my problem with Duke - no one is like this. He was in bad taste 20 years ago, but got away with it, largely due to having state of the art game play and graphics. Things have moved on and no one has made games like that (or that bad) for quite some time. There was no need to go back to him. It was insulting to think that gamers wanted to play characters like him (or games that badly made).

[White Tiger88]

your entire argument is invalid though, you could just as easily say why not increase the number of female characters? Your argument seems to be 'why bother?' Plenty of people do care, it would be nice to see a more balanced ratio. Plenty of games could have a female lead, or a choice, and those games would be more appealing to a lot of people. It isn't massively important, but it makes a difference and it would help the industry. I bet a better portrayal of women in games would help with a lot of the sexism and abuse people get over messages etc.

I am always up for more female characters............who doesn't love space cleavage?


http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q763/White_Tiger88/1239288139991_zpsd50f0ef9.jpg

[eldargal]

The problem Kirsten, is that no one has argued convincingly WHY their should be more women characters. To date, with everything said and in that article, you could substitute amost any noun/verb and it be an equally (in)valid argument - why not have more baldies in wheel chairs- surely E S Blofeld and Dr X aren't enough? If lots of people care, why is their not a massive popular movement about it, rather than niche articles? What guarantees that it would 'help the industry' - what, they could make more money and their marketeers and business experts making phone-number salaries remain blnd to this seam of gold?
Baldies in wheel chairs aren't 50% of the population and nearly 50% of the demographic, women are. It's really a nonsense argument. What it boils down to is that you are arguing that an industy that overwhelmingly caters towards white males shouldn't change despite the fact that the customer demographics do not reflect that.

There should be more women characters because women are just as interesting and capable as men and the old excuse that video games reflect a male dominated consumer base no longer applies. Women are spending money on these games too and have as much right to demand they reflect their tastes as men.

Also, Nerf Rebelle looks kind of nifty:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/02/img5645.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/02/img5651.jpg

[White Tiger88]

What the bloody hell is that thing??????

[eldargal]

It's a Nerf repeater crossbow.:p I'm so getting one.

[White Tiger88]

It's a Nerf repeater crossbow.:p I'm so getting one.

I prefer real crossbows..........They make people run faster :3

[Denzark]

Baldies in wheel chairs aren't 50% of the population and nearly 50% of the demographic, women are. It's really a nonsense argument. What it boils down to is that you are arguing that an industy that overwhelmingly caters towards white males shouldn't change despite the fact that the customer demographics do not reflect that.

There should be more women characters because women are just as interesting and capable as men and the old excuse that video games reflect a male dominated consumer base no longer applies. Women are spending money on these games too and have as much right to demand they reflect their tastes as men.

Also, Nerf Rebelle looks kind of nifty:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/02/img5645.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/02/img5651.jpg

EG - I really don't have a dog in this fight - if I consider my fave games ever (X-com, BF2, Dawn of War, Total War before the balls napoleonic on, Call of Duty, Star Wars BF, Red Alert Series) nary a single one would have benefitted from more female characters in terms of what attracted me - ie gameplay. If the demographics have changed but what the product caters for hasn't, that is telling. The product is catering not towards a demographic - but who actually lays money down. Women do have as much right to demand games of all varieties reflect their tasts as men - I 100% agree - but clearly they are still buying but not raising suffiicent complaints for the industry to pay attention.

It has startling similarities to GW whingers. People are monking on about stuff, but not enough are doing what needs doing to make company policy change, ie voting with their feet. Female gamers need to stop playing games that protray fmeales negatively and be vocal and heard about it. Actually I think this won't matter - becuase as pointed out, women play RPG, sim etc where their image isn't derogatory - and the industry bottom line on other games, is already suffiicent for them not to care.

As to the Rebelle yes it looks nifty admittedly. But whilst there is a small nerf armoury at home, the colouring of this ensures it won't find a place- if there was a bog stnadard yellow (or even better stealthy black) I might give it more thought.

[eldargal]

It's easy to focus on gameplay when you are the demographic that has every tailor made to you.:p It is much more jarring when you are a woman playing a video game and every single character is inexplicably male. It boils down to provilege and people with privilege not understanding how what they take for granted takes on very different connotations to others.
But w are buying games, that is the problem. The industry is not reflecting their customers and the customers are getting cranky. We are voting with our wallets (or purses:p) and more people are waking up to this fact. 47% of gamers are women and 48% of game customers are women in the US, yet 15% of game characters are female and most of those are highly sexualised. We are voting with our wallets but we still have to make the industry understand what is going on.

[imperialpower]

If girls are that bothered about been misrepresented why are 47% of game customers women? If I don't like somthing I don't buy it, is it just me or is that just too simple? If there is that much of a market for girl gamers then why is nobody making games for them, if they have the statistics surely they would make more 'female freindly' games and do what all game designers want and make money off a nearly 50% customer base.

[eldargal]

Because we can dislike the way things are handled but still enjoy them? It isn't universal, either, there are games across all genres which appeal to women more and companies which so a much better job than others (Bioware, for example).

[Kirsten]

Because we can dislike the way things are handled but still enjoy them? It isn't universal, either, there are games across all genres which appeal to women more and companies which so a much better job than others (Bioware, for example).

exactly, the attitudes here are pretty depressing and rather highlight the problem, 'why bother/nobody cares' is the issue

[White Tiger88]

Tell you what, pop a cute gamer girl in front of me who is single and i will care :)

[imperialpower]

I didn't meen why bother nobody cares I meant if there is that much market for it then why the hell is nobody making money out of it, it seems very odd not to cater to half your customers but like I said companies won't see a problem if you continue to buy there products or just won't care if you just have the attitude of I can live with it but I'm not happy here is my money anyway.

[eldargal]

I didn't meen why bother nobody cares I meant if there is that much market for it then why the hell is nobody making money out of it, it seems very odd not to cater to half your customers but like I said companies won't see a problem if you continue to buy there products or just won't care if you just have the attitude of I can live with it but I'm not happy here is my money anyway.
They are, look at the list of top selling games posted earlier a lot of them are games where you can play a female character or are games that are known for strong female audiences (The Sims). There is money in making games more acceptable to female gamers (it isn't hard either, stop treating female characters like an afterthought and eye candy) the issue here is that the industry has its head up its rectum and doesn't seem to realise this.

[imperialpower]

They are, look at the list of top selling games posted earlier a lot of them are games where you can play a female character or are games that are known for strong female audiences (The Sims). There is money in making games more acceptable to female gamers (it isn't hard either, stop treating female characters like an afterthought and eye candy) the issue here is that the industry has its head up its rectum and doesn't seem to realise this.

Sounds like it is the industry that does not care then, if they have the statistics and know that strong female characters sell as well as their male counterparts from the sales of other games and still do nothing about it. The companies that operate like that will either have to change to keep up with their rivals that do care about girl gamers or they will most likley go bust and solve the problem for you or continue down the same path making a profit and annoying half their customers at the same time.:)

[eldargal]

In some cases, as the article in the OP indicates, it isn't even that they don't care but rather they aren't sure what to do. Being scared of writing a female character in case they get it wrong, for example. But that is really just an indication that they lack confidence, most likely because they've no experience writing a female character.

[imperialpower]

In some cases, as the article in the OP indicates, it isn't even that they don't care but rather they aren't sure what to do. Being scared of writing a female character in case they get it wrong, for example. But that is really just an indication that they lack confidence, most likely because they've no experience writing a female character.

Yes I can see that been a big factor easily solved by hiring a good female writer although I imagine there will be a lack of them in the game designing world.

[eldargal]

Hiring a female writer is always a good choice, at the very least it has a lot less chance of being inadvertently offensive. I don't think that is the only solution, though. Men are quite capable of writing female characters well if they try and have a modicum of talent.

On the subject of specific companies, I find it interesting how varied things can be in a single company, such as Blizzard. Starcraft has had a good history of strong female characters, notably Kerrigan who is very strong even if her zerg apparance is a tad sexualised (having said that if I were her I'd probably evolve integral high heels and perma-lipstick too). Warcraft on the other hand really doesn't do the job as convincingly. Jaina Proudmoore is ok but Tyrande is written like an idiot, she only seems to exist in order to show how awesome some of the younger male characters are. Diablo does the easy thing by having a choice between male and female characters and in III giving all classes both options. Contrast to Bioware where both their in-house IPs (Mass Effect & Dragon Age) have strong female characters and their licensed products too (the ultimate antagonist of the Baldurs Gate series was a badass woman and KOTOR was packed full of 'em).
Not going anywhere with this, just thought it was interesting.

[imperialpower]

The hard part is writing a strong feminine character and not just a really butch masculine female character that you see thrown into films and what have you when they decide they need a strong female role.

[eldargal]

Yep, but even female writers can have that issue. How to not go from Strong to B!tch. But really a butch strong female character is better than another silly, sexualised character. At the very least it gives the writer some practise and hopefully some feedback to help them improve.

[imperialpower]

Good point, although lets not forget that silly sexualised looking women can always get silly masculine guys to do what ever they want, I think that is a very usefull power to have over someone and if writen well can make for a very intresting character.

[Denzark]

I think IP has got the git of what I was trying to say - girl buying power going from 0-50-ish% of the demographic of gamers, with no change, doesn't incentivise (sp?) the industry.

[eldargal]

But there has been a change and the success of games that have appealed to women should be providing an incentive. The fact that the industry seems either not to care or be aware of it and not know how to proceed is a problem that a lot of us are trying to help rectify by highlighting the issue and offering opinions on what can be done.

[Phototoxin]

It's easy to focus on gameplay when you are the demographic that has every tailor made to you.:p It is much more jarring when you are a woman playing a video game and every single character is inexplicably male. It boils down to provilege and people with privilege not understanding how what they take for granted takes on very different connotations to others.
But w are buying games, that is the problem. The industry is not reflecting their customers and the customers are getting cranky. We are voting with our wallets (or purses:p) and more people are waking up to this fact. 47% of gamers are women and 48% of game customers are women in the US, yet 15% of game characters are female and most of those are highly sexualised. We are voting with our wallets but we still have to make the industry understand what is going on.

http://i.imgur.com/C1ob3eZ.jpg

In addition with shooty/war games most soldiers are men, most casualties in wars are men so yay for 'privilege'!

[Gotthammer]

Images of men by men for men. They're designed to appeal to the stereotypical male power fantasy, not so girls swoon over them.

Also, male privilege isn't negated by the fact that more men are killed in war, and it doesn't mean women are more privileged either as it is men exercising their control of society preventing women from fighting, and if you look at some of the things (male) soldiers have done to women over the years warfare becomes an illustration of male privilege. Also privilege is about day-to-day stuff that just happens because of the way society works that most people don't even notice happens:




1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often..

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.


#17 is especially important and on topic, and #46 seems rather relevant too. Now not all of this will apply to every man out there, and there are also issues of race, socio-economic status and many other factors that come into play - these are just broad illustrations of the effect of the whole of society.

[Phototoxin]

There's a heck of a lot of assumption and presumed persecution on behalf of women.

1. probably ?

2. Not my fault if you don't think you got the job because of your ability. If you got it due to your sex its discrimination against the man who in #1 is probably getting it because he is a man.

3. Evidence plz

4. Seen by whom? A lot of this is self reflective

5. I am far less likely to have sexual harassment at work taken seriously (fixed that for you)

6. chances

7. Odds of rape are relatively low anyway.

8. It's not a privilege that criminal rapists might not want to target you, its part of society being f*cked up

9. Men don't have rights to choose children, get your rights right.

10. Because he's probably working so the primary carer doesn't have to.

11. Errrrrr No. Good parenting praise isn't just handed out willy-nilly

12. No-one - can you speak for everyone

13. I doubt it matters much in the UK, the US maybe..

14. Have to agree but varies by country but also tends to apply to race aswell.

15. Depends on in what context - person in charge in prison or mine - probably a man, in a school or hospital good chance its a woman.

16. again 'chances' it's highly subjective.

17. Non stereotyped - don't make me laugh!

18. Depends on your teacher. And females do better in our current education setup.

19. :confused:

20. You in the 1950s?

21. Never heard it happen to a woman 'because she's a woman'.

22. Disagree, until recently men got charged more for car insurance.

23. Depends on the group..

24. Who people sleep with is their own business.

25. Again it depends who's looking, I take it you're assuming a heterosexual white male.

26. Don't make me laugh. Women have more options in colour size shape and availability.

27. Expected by whom?

28. There's that hypothetical again --- chances

29. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

30. There's other words but the effect is the same...

31. That's total BS.

32. Change the english language to huperson instead of human? A lot of places use genderneutral or -person these days (chairperson etc)

33. Never heard of that one.

34. Again who is 'expecting' this - it seems like most of these are assumed...

35. You don't know that it will be. Assumptions.

36. Religion is optional. Start your own.

37. Maybe in the 1950s or Saudi Arabia..

38. Most successful marriages have a more equal division of labour.

39. You can *expect* this? :rolleyes:

40. That's your decision to make

41. That's their target demographic. Blame capitalism

42. Aside from health?

43. In the 20-30 age group domestic violence in the UK is about 50/50

44. Where the hell do you live?

45. Never seen it happen to a woman in the street.

45. You don't know the women I know then..

46. I am aware that women have specific gender issues as do men. ;)

[YorkNecromancer]

Power is not given. It is taken. Those with power (straight white males) get defensive because they fear losing their power. The more they try to diminish, reduce, or in some way mitigate sexism, demonise feminism, apologise for a culture that treats women like garbage? The more they prove that the struggle is not won, and feminism has a long way to go.

The struggle for feminism will be "won" the day that governments are 50:50 male/female, that corporate CEOs are 50:50 male/female, that gamers are 50:50 male/female, and so on, and not a single day before. And if you're immediately thinking of replying "That day will never come", guess what?

That's why we have feminism, because the gender biases we have are not "normal"; they're simply what's "usual", and those to things are not equivalent.

As a side note, Phototoxin, you need to consider things from a societal perspective, not your own. Because women don't have to deal with just you and your opinions; they have to deal with societies, and I assure you, the list you refer to isn't about you. It's about how society as a whole judges people, male or female.

I also note that your extensive reply includes this absolute peach:


7. Odds of rape are relatively low anyway.

I'd explain, but you know what? Go here.

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

Read the cards. If you truly believe the horrible thing I've quoted above, read ALL of them, every single page. I challenge you as a man to do it. Once you've finished (if you can, because I can't; I break down in tears every time and have to stop), I invite you to imagine saying that to any of the people photographed, or those who know them and love them. I invite you to imagine exactly what you would look like to them.

Learn why what you just said is profoundly, horrifically cruel.

[Gotthammer]

@ Phototoxin - Your "answer" to #7, is, I hope, just depressingly ignorant. Most statistics say around 15-20% of women have been raped, and a higher percentage experienced some other form of sexual assault. So just dismissing that women are statistically far more likely to be a victim of this crime as "well, it's not very common so whatever", is pretty much the apex of male privilege, rape culture and mansplainin'.
You also didn't fix #5, merely pointed out a different problem, as over 80% of sexual harassment cases in the US are reported by women. That there is such a great disparity may have two root causes, but neither one negates the other as a problem.
And for #9 it's to choose not to. You know, like if you say "I have chosen not to have kids / I do not want to have kids". Men can do that, just like any other person.
Your response to #8 - you pretty much hit it on the head there for everything really and summarised privilege nicely. It's not that you're privileged, per se, it's that society sucks for people more than your gender as a general rule - so you have the dubious privilege of not having to deal with the garbage those "others" have to all the time. You can possess male privilege but still be trodden on by society for race or class privilege going against you (or vice-versa).

And this list isn't mine or specifically about me, it's about broad social trends in western society as a whole. Whilst it is great that you don't consider some of these as real due to never having witnessed them or disagreeing with the implications about men (ie #24), the thing about privilege is that I can look at my life and not all of this applies, or you can look at people you know's lives and not all of it will apply, but if you look at society as a whole, a lot of this will apply as a general rule.
It's a macro statement about micro trends - just because you've never heard of it/seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


Which to bring it back to the original point, is that the presentation of women in games isn't all terrible all the time, and there are many positive examples, but there aren't a broad variety of examples (or conversely the broad trend is bad examples).



@ York - well said.

Though I do slightly disagree with the long term goal in that it should be whatever ratio it happens to be because that's what people want it to be for themselves, not because of enforced structures. I don't think this is coming out well but I mean that the split should be natural, and even if it's not even it would be ok so long as people aren't discouraged / excluded because of their gender etc. Hope that made sense

[YorkNecromancer]

Though I do slightly disagree with the long term goal in that it should be whatever ratio it happens to be because that's what people want it to be for themselves, not because of enforced structures. I don't think this is coming out well but I mean that the split should be natural, and even if it's not even it would be ok so long as people aren't discouraged / excluded because of their gender etc. Hope that made sense

I actually agree entirely with what you say. My point is strident largely because the problem I have is that people think that this is how the world works today, when it clearly doesn't, and won't for a very long time, and certainly won't evolve that way naturally. The only thing, literally, the only thing that creates equality between the genders is feminism (which the mansplainers will never, ever admit. Even to themselves.). Like, actual feminism:

http://jezebel.com/5979665/holy-crap-is-feminism-actually-working-and-changing-the-world

[Phototoxin]

The struggle for feminism will be "won" the day that governments are 50:50 male/female, that corporate CEOs are 50:50 male/female, that gamers are 50:50 male/female, and so on, and not a single day before. And if you're immediately thinking of replying "That day will never come", guess what?


Read the cards. If you truly believe the horrible thing I've quoted above, read ALL of them, every single page. I challenge you as a man to do it. Once you've finished (if you can, because I can't; I break down in tears every time and have to stop), I invite you to imagine saying that to any of the people photographed, or those who know them and love them. I invite you to imagine exactly what you would look like to them.

Learn why what you just said is profoundly, horrifically cruel.

Firstly 50/50 is a farce - artificially manipulating gender ratios is discrimination, not equality.

Second it is a cruel fact, but men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women, hence my response. What has happened to those women is tragic and indeed cruel, which I am aware of, but me making a statement of that fact is not cruel.
The odds of being raped if a female are also relatively low, however, for males, odds of violent criminal victimization are significantly higher. In addition, rapes of females are treated as a major crime, where rapes of males are treated as comedy. Fact.

[Kirsten]

whilst you are correct about manipulating gender ratios, your notion of male rape is utterly ludicrous. it is tragic and not reported often enough, it is as far from comedy as it could possibly be, and I know of nobody who would ever think of it as such.

[Phototoxin]

I never said it was comedy, I said it was treated as such. For goodness sake in some legal systems it is considered impossible to rape a man anyway.

[scadugenga]

Gyah, I *really* loathe these "privilege" checklists. I'm (almost entirely) a white male. I refuse to be apologetic about it. I have experienced discrimination too. It happens to everyone to a greater or lesser degree.

I prefer, instead of trying to dwell upon the negatives, to move forward instead. We should be celebrating our differences rather than focusing on alienating each other.

But back to XCom.

Best. Game. Ever.

With the original Dragon Age not far behind.

[eldargal]

I never said it was comedy, I said it was treated as such. For goodness sake in some legal systems it is considered impossible to rape a man anyway.
Which is archaic and wrong but completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Gyah, I *really* loathe these "privilege" checklists. I'm (almost entirely) a white male. I refuse to be apologetic about it. I have experienced discrimination too. It happens to everyone to a greater or lesser degree.
It isn't about being apologetic for something you can't control, it is about accepting that you get things easier and don't have to deal with persecution/discrimination on the same level of others who do. Which still includes women. I'm not saying you do this, just pointing out that no one is trying to victimise white males, just even the playing field.

As I've said before (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?19953-A-crash-course-in-Feminism-(or-why-everyone-should-be-a-feminist)), all feminism is is the demand that women have the same rights and freedoms in practise, not just in theory.

That includes being treated as equally valuable customers by video game companies and not just dismissed as too much effort or 'well you buy the games anyway so...'.;)

[Deadlift]

Quick question,
Does opening doors for women make me a sexist then ?


Or just old fashioned ;)

[eldargal]

Nope, opening a door for someone is just respectful/well-mannered. If you only open doors for women and made a point of going on about it it could be creepy. But unless you say and believe you're doing it because they are too weak and stupid I really don't see it as being sexist. Some women disagree but I think it is a silly thing to worry about regardless.

[Myu]

Oh joy privilege lists, well I think I'll just skip that and say I think the lady OP was talking about wrote a great article. I'm all for strong ladies in games and when I ever get around to making my own game I'll be more then happy to put in ladies of character, not stereo types.

[Psychosplodge]

I really hate these lists, no offence Gott but they're always horribly skewed to the writers views. For example iIt certainly didn't need to be that long.



I'd explain, but you know what? Go here.

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/


:(



But back to XCom.

Best. Game. Ever.

With the original Dragon Age not far behind.

Nope,
double nope.

[Gotthammer]

No offense taken Psycho, I was posting it to illustrate that none of those things are negated by crap stuff happening to guys too, which is what Photo was implying.

I was also trying to point out that privilege isn't an active thing and shouldn't be used to "blame" people, but as a tool to explain why, to be on topic, women don't like the often scrappy portrayals of their gender in entertainment (ie because they get enough in the real world).
None of that means that there aren't men only issues in society or that the portrayal of men in games is not also[/] problematic - it just means that trying to point to men being objectified doesn't negate the problems women face and trying to shut down women airing their problems with the gaming industry by going "well men die in wars, we don't have privileges in society" is asinine, ignorant and actually reeks of a privileged position by saying that the other group's problems don't matter because you've got [i]real problems.

[Psychosplodge]

Whoever said it earlier probably hit the nail on the head, while ever developers are made up of white males you'll get a game skewed to a white male perspective. The only way to change it is to be not a white male and go and learn how to code.

[eldargal]

I don't actually agree, you only have to look at Bioware to see a company that is still relatively full of white males making a big effort to be more representative (not saying they are perfect). They do have a considerable amount of women in the writing team though, at least half perhaps more? David Gaider mentioned it on his blog. I think that argument, which basically amounts to 'we're white and can't be bothered trying to think differently' is a bit of a cop out for the industry really. Not that I'm saying that they shouldn't be trying to hire more black/female/etc staff or anything, obviously.

[Psychosplodge]

Someone like bioware are big enough to have dedicated writers where they don't have to do anything else though. A small company doesn't have that luxury, and is it worse to not do it, or do it so badly it becomes offensive?

[eldargal]

Bioware aren't exactly the biggest, though, there are plenty of bigger companies who could do what BW do but don't. As for smaller companies I don't think it is that hard to write a female (or black etc.) character inoffensively unless you are trying something too ambitious. If you can't then perhaps you shouldn't be writing video games.

[Psychosplodge]

No I accept re skinning a character shouldn't matter, the writing should be the same unless you're trying to overcomplicate the back story. but I don't think I could write a convincing female as A) i'm not, B) i'm not a writer either. So why would we expect a developer to be able to if they're neither those things?

Though if there was a mod to make duke nukem female and all the lines re-done it might make it funnier than what I've seen of it...

[eldargal]

Well it depends how female they need to be for the story to work. I mean in an action game or something with a limited focus on character development it shouldn't be that difficult to have strong female characters. Did you play Space Marine? Look at Lt. Mira. She took control of the surviving IG on the planet, fortified their position and generally did a damned good job. But hardly any attention was paid to the fact she was female, she just was. Her dialogue was nothing insightful but it sold 'strong, capable female' perfectly well because she was shown to be just that.

[Psychosplodge]

I've not got that far tbh I got bored...

Yeah I can see that argument. I suppose it works where the gender isn't relevant to the character...

[eldargal]

Which is really the point. The industry needs to stop treating female characters like some kind of extra burden or something to be afraid of and just start including them. Listen to constructive feedback and improve, don't sexualise them unless it serves a narrative purpose (like Jack or Isabela in ME/DA2) and get some experience. Hiding behind 'we don't want to offend anyone' is understandable but still a crutch. They don't have to scream 'look, female characters!' they just have to have female characters doing things in the game that otherwise would have been relegated to a male character.

I really think Mira is a great example of this. It could have been a male character keeping the Guards sh!t together, but it wasn't. It passed (mostly) without comment and her dialogue could easily have been said by a male character. But she was female and she was one of the better female supporting characters of the last couple of years.

[scadugenga]

It isn't about being apologetic for something you can't control, it is about accepting that you get things easier and don't have to deal with persecution/discrimination on the same level of others who do. Which still includes women. I'm not saying you do this, just pointing out that no one is trying to victimise white males, just even the playing field.



Except so many of those "list" articles/posts/whatever are *exactly* meant to engender guilt, remorse, and being apologetic. And it's also geographically ethnocentric. That list would not be as apropos in Asia, for example.

And I'm all for evening the playing field. ;)

[eldargal]

I'm not a huge fan of the lists either, though they do illustrate a point.

[imperialpower]

Yep one day the world will be like star trek where all humans love each other no matter what sex, ethnicity, religion or culture they are........... or maybe humans are and always will be complete a***holes to each other, I doubt that will ever change unless all people suddenly become exactly the same in every way.

[Psychosplodge]

This is the real problem

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/11123_476029069119016_327773327_n.jpg

[Deadlift]

Yep one day the world will be like star trek where all humans love each other no matter what sex, ethnicity, religion or culture they are........... or maybe humans are and always will be complete a***holes to each other, I doubt that will ever change unless all people suddenly become exactly the same in every way.


boring as hell then :)

[Wildeybeast]

boring as hell then :)

Nonsense. If it's like Star Trek, we won't just be loving each other, but sexy green aliens! Rigel II, here I come!

[Mr Mystery]

Yep one day the world will be like star trek where all humans love each other no matter what sex, ethnicity, religion or culture they are........... or maybe humans are and always will be complete a***holes to each other, I doubt that will ever change unless all people suddenly become exactly the same in every way.

Wait until we can escape out birth planet. Space and opportunity galore for all will sort us out as a species. All we need to do is reduce competition for resources.

[Wildeybeast]

Wait until we can escape out birth planet. Space and opportunity galore for all will sort us out as a species. All we need to do is reduce competition for resources.

What competition? We have all the resources, the poor people have none. And they can't get them off us because they are poor. There is plenty to go around, we just aren't sharing.

[Mr Mystery]

Now introduce a second planet with untapped resources...

Rinse and repeat (and once we're out there, expansion will be exponentional, as main hurdle is how. That cracked? Galaxy is our oyster. As a species we really are quite marvellous. We just need to remove the constraints of an over populated world, and who knows what will happen?

[Denzark]

What competition? We have all the resources, the poor people have none. And they can't get them off us because they are poor. There is plenty to go around, we just aren't sharing.

I'm not sharing with poor people, no. I'm having my resources taken off me, without my consent, by rich champagne socialists with £10m property portfolios like Tony Blair and his terrorist defending wife. They then give it to the poor people, who spend it on drugs, tattoos, cigarettes, drink, and everything else I see on Jeremy Kyle.

[YorkNecromancer]

I suppose it works where the gender isn't relevant to the character...

As an interesting note on this point, I recently discovered that the film "Alien" was deliberately designed so that the characters' genders were irrelevant. There is a note at the start of the script that points out that they're just people, and that the casting department should choose whoever they like to play a character.

I thought that a pleasingly audacious move. Just write the lines, and then cast whoever you think is most awesome do the acting.

[Deadlift]

Talking of which I just watched Prometheus which also had a couple of cool female characters in it. Good film too, but it's Ridley directing again so maybe that's his thing.

[eldargal]

I didn't like Prometheus:
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-LZg3Rz5/0/950x10000/i-LZg3Rz5-950x10000.jpg

[Deadlift]

:p would you like me to explain it to you lol

[eldargal]

Nope, seen it and understood it.:p Thought it was a fairly weak effort.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm not sharing with poor people, no. I'm having my resources taken off me, without my consent, by rich champagne socialists with £10m property portfolios like Tony Blair and his terrorist defending wife. They then give it to the poor people, who spend it on drugs, tattoos, cigarettes, drink, and everything else I see on Jeremy Kyle.

I blame Robin Hood.

[imperialpower]

At least Robin Hood admited he stole from people...... made utter s**t films though.

[Psychosplodge]

What competition? We have all the resources, the poor people have none. And they can't get them off us because they are poor. There is plenty to go around, we just aren't sharing.

No there isn't, there's far too many people here already.


As an interesting note on this point, I recently discovered that the film "Alien" was deliberately designed so that the characters' genders were irrelevant.

No I'm sorry that's wrong. I saw a documentary once where they were discussing this with the director and part of the terror was it was the males "giving birth" (chest bursters) and Ripley was originally written as a male part, but they decided last minute that Sigourney Weaver would be awesome in the role.

[Denzark]

The Bible (aka Wikipedia) also references the point of the characters being written so as they can be male or female, check it out, there may be a reference...

[Psychosplodge]

Interesting.

IMDB Says both.



An early draft of the script had a male Ripley, making this one of at least three films where Sigourney Weaver played a character originally planned to be a man. The second is The TV Set and the third is Vantage Point.




All of the names of the main characters were changed by Walter Hill and David Giler during the revision of the original script by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. The script by O'Bannon and Shusett also had a clause indicating that all of the characters are "unisex", meaning they could be cast with male or female actors. However, Shusett and O'Bannon never thought of casting Ripley as a female character.

[Myu]

@Eldargal

I remember that chick in Space marine, she was awesome. I'm a little uncertain though of what you think of the fact that her lines are gender neutral. I sort of go the impression some times you were saying "making a deal about her being a woman is bad" but other times it felt more "It would have been nice to point it out actually". What route do you think the writers should have taken?

[eldargal]

I like that her lines were gender neutral, it is the perfect way of writing a strong female character in a combat environment.:)

[White Tiger88]

@Eldargal

I remember that chick in Space marine, she was awesome. I'm a little uncertain though of what you think of the fact that her lines are gender neutral. I sort of go the impression some times you were saying "making a deal about her being a woman is bad" but other times it felt more "It would have been nice to point it out actually". What route do you think the writers should have taken?

Funny enough the second they showed her i thought a chaos marine would pop up and shank her.......

[eldargal]

Thankfully they avoided that cliche.

[White Tiger88]

Thankfully they avoided that cliche.

Wait for a squeal lol

[Myu]

@White Tiger88

Hopefully the sequal won't have that :S

@Eldargal

Cool :). What would be good then for a non-combat environment? What would one put in to make her obviously feminine while not being a stereotype or sexist?

I know clothes/shopping/beauty stuff is the trope but statistically how common that is or whether you could put it in without offending most girls I have no idea. There are many different kind of girls out there, with may different interests but what would most people accept as generally feminine to do/say/act like?