Flyers - essential in an army list in 6th ed?

[dannypwo]

I'm returning to 40k after a 14-16month break and despite not playing 40k a great deal in the past have started with a 1000 point all krieg list that im painting up structured mostly around 3 x medusa static siege artillery guns and infantry (playing a static gun line tactic). As i will eventually increase my army to 1500/1750/2000 points i'm pondering the thought of adding some air support or increasing what i have with mortars/thudd guns. not being familiar with fliers i'm wondering how essential they are in a game? do they dominate gameplay or are they a typical 'harassment' tool that seldom delivers? with fliers becoming a fixed part of every new codex is it better just to add some quad guns guns for cheap or go balls out and invest in some flying resin and add an imperial navy aircraft to the list?

thoughts and considerations please.

[Learn2Eel]

Fliers are very strong and durable, but they aren't "necessary" so to speak. More-so, you need to at least be prepared for their use in a competitive environment. Being an Imperial Guard player, you can do this either with Hydra Flak Tanks or Hydra Batteries - like your Medusa artillery guns. If you actually want fliers though for anti-air duty, take two or more Vendettas and go for your life. They are arguably the best flyer in the game right now. Another option is the Aegis Defence Line with a Quad Gun, but Hydras and Vendettas would be a better bet.

[Denzark]

Flyers are a quandary. If you ain't playing against them, you wouldn't need them. To risk playing against them (random opponent) and not take at least a modicum of anti flyer defence, you may be at a significant disadvantage. It is like fighting against mech with no melta, or terminators with no plasma - not necessarily impossible but can be a whole degree harder.

And then, the best flyer defence is often, flyers. So there you are.

Flyers that can also transport like your vendettas are that much better. If you can afford the points and it isn't hugely against your army fluff, why not?

[Mr Mystery]

They are 'du jour' but I'm not sure they're essential.

Vendettas are fun, but suffer from fixed forward weapons. If you're not clever and think ahead, they won't manage much at all. Other fliers have turret mounts, which give a good advantage.

Overall, they can't take much punishment at all as a vehicle class, so as the new books are released, and AA is dished out more, their curret favour will become tempered.

However, they are bloody good fun to field, and without exception fantastic models!

[Sly]

Flyers are generally a good unit, especially some (Scythes, Vendetta, Heldrakes). If you face a good amount of these units and have no AA capability of your own, you may be in serious trouble.

AA is most efficiently done by the Aegis Defense Line Quadcannon, but you can only take 1 of those, and 1 relatively light unit is easy for an opponent to remove. Other Flyers are also pretty efficient at AA. So, in general, you do want to take Flyers.

However, if you do not want to make room for them in your list, there are other things that you can do to handle Flyers:

1) Best option is to take a large mass of units and control the center of the board, moving all other units with them (keep all units, both advance elements and fire support, into one large blob that doesn't leave room for a Flyer's base in between the different units). That way the Flyers come on, fly at your "multi-blob", and fire once. Next turn, they are too close to fly at it, so they must turn left, right, or overfly it. If they overfly, they go past all of your units. If they turn left or right, you have no units outside of the blob to shoot at. In either case, unless they're Heldrakes or Storm Talons (since these two have turret-mounted weapons and don't have to face you to shoot you), they only fire every other turn. You can weather that.

2) Twin-linked weapons are most accurate even if they're not specifically AA. This can include units like 2-3 Speeders with double MM, with a Librarian to cast the Divination Primaris power upon them. Even if you need 6s to hit, Flyers don't like to see 6 MM shots, twin-linked, on units fast enough to move within 12" of them.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

They aren't essential. They do some fun things and add an interesting dimension to your army's capabilities, and obviously are one of the best and most obvious ways to get rid of enemy flyers, but essential? No more than any other unit.

[Houghten]

When you're playing Imperial Guard, you don't necessarily need any fliers of your own, because you have Hydra autocannon. And the best bit is, you can turn them against the enemy ground units after the fliers are all shrapnel.

[Mr Mystery]

They aren't essential. They do some fun things and add an interesting dimension to your army's capabilities, and obviously are one of the best and most obvious ways to get rid of enemy flyers, but essential? No more than any other unit.

[pedant mode engage]No more essential than any unit outside the HQ and two troops[/pedant mode disengage]

Sorry. Couldn't resist!

[dannypwo]

cheers guys, i think squeezing in a flyer is going to be the way to go then - the models are awesome. i guess the only question is to go for the imperial navy avenger strike fighter with its S6 AP3 Heavy 7 bolt cannon and 2 x lascannons, a gunned up vulture or a thunderbolt? will having 'vector dancer' give me more shooting opportunities or is it just a neat manoeuvrability tool?

[HERO]

I go with just one in an all-comers list.

[Mr Mystery]

cheers guys, i think squeezing in a flyer is going to be the way to go then - the models are awesome. i guess the only question is to go for the imperial navy avenger strike fighter with its S6 AP3 Heavy 7 bolt cannon and 2 x lascannons, a gunned up vulture or a thunderbolt? will having 'vector dancer' give me more shooting opportunities or is it just a neat manoeuvrability tool?

Vector Dancer is great. Makes it far harder for your opponent to avoid your firepower, and makes your flight path far less predictable.

[Nabterayl]

cheers guys, i think squeezing in a flyer is going to be the way to go then - the models are awesome. i guess the only question is to go for the imperial navy avenger strike fighter with its S6 AP3 Heavy 7 bolt cannon and 2 x lascannons, a gunned up vulture or a thunderbolt? will having 'vector dancer' give me more shooting opportunities or is it just a neat manoeuvrability tool?
How do you intend to add the flyer to your force? The siege regiment list includes no options for air support. Are you including a detachment of allies from Codex: Imperial Guard?

If so, as much as it pains me, I have to strongly recommend you look at the Vendetta. It has the following going for it:

Lascannon are a great tool for knocking anything out of the sky - good AP to make your hits count, and good Strength for use against the really heavy flyers such as Stormravens.
Lascannon are a great tool for knocking armored vehicles - at any rate, you won't find better on a flyer.
AV12 makes the Vendetta a tough cookie to shoot down with most anti-air weapons.
130 points. I mean, really.
Lore-wise, it bugs the heck out of me that lascannon are so good at air-to-air combat (since most indications are that they are supposed to be used in a ground attack role), and of course the Vendetta isn't an air superiority craft at all. Still, at 130 points, I think it's a better buy than a Thunderbolt or Avenger, even though it's slightly less well armed than either in terms of raw firepower. It's tougher than a Thunderbolt or Avenger, and in a pinch is more maneuverable. It is comparably priced to a Vulture but has doesn't have ammunition concerns and is somewhat better armed against vehicles (not as good at anti-infantry, granted, but you have plenty of ways to handle infantry of all flavors in a siege regiment list). VTOLs and siege regiments don't mesh well aesthetically in my head - but I'm not you, and the Vendetta is really good for its points cost. So ... worth a serious look.

[dannypwo]

i'm still undecided at the moment as looking at effective anti air capabilities too in the form of an attached vindicaire assassin with an Icarus Lascannon/ADL to be a vehicle/IC sniper. It comes in at more points but the range is great and i guess the fun will come in the playing.

Having never played with air assets before ive taken a shine to the vulture/punisher cannon load out and with strafing/vector dancing abilities it wont kill tanks but thats what my medusa's are for.

My thinking is that any imperial guard regiment should always have close air support on call and as i'm aware this is likely to be the only 40k army i have from now on (depends on FW's pre heresy Word Bearers in all honesty) I'll be building this as a starting point to apocalypse size formations.

Im still working away from home for the next 3 weeks in Iraq so i'll get some more theoretical lists drawn up at this point level but i suspect the Fall of Orpheus will be released in the next 2 weeks and then this post will become defunct.

Having a look at peoples current assault based army lists that are posted on BOLS i think i need the ability to throw 20 x TL strength 5 shots at units to cause them inevitable 1's to be rolled on the DW terminators and perhaps wipe out the opponents troop options.

Thanks for your input though and i'll take your opinions in consideration (however deep down i am a resin junkie)

[Kawauso]

I too have been looking at the Vulture as an option for my traitor Guard. Mostly I don't want to be stuck in the Vendetta 'rut' - that's what my loyalist IG are for, anyhow.

But also the Vulture with twin-linked punisher cannons looks awesome. It's like a combination A10 and Apache.
Plus, mathematically those punisher cannons can reliably knock 2x hull points off of any AV11 vehicle in one round of shooting. Of course they'll put boatloads of wounds on infantry models, as you said. Oh, and don't forget it has a nose-mounted heavy bolter, too...so it's technically 23 S5 shots it can put out.

I think I will/would recommend making the weapon mounts swappable, however. Awesome as the punisher cannons are, if you ever need that extra bit of air support you can gear up a Vulture with a twin-linked autocannon and 6x hunter killer missiles - and this comes in at 10 points less than kitting it out with a punisher cannon. That load-out nets you 3x S5 shots, 2x TL S7 shots and 2x/6x S8 shots (2 a turn, 6 total) per turn which, while no Vendetta is still nothing to sniff at. The HK missiles have unlimited range, too, so with vector dancer and the height of the flying stem you can pretty much threaten any light-to-medium-armoured vehicle on the board.

But yeah. I'd at least try and keep parts swappable because the punisher cannon variant is just too badass to ignore.

[Defenestratus]

Vector Dancer is great. Makes it far harder for your opponent to avoid your firepower, and makes your flight path far less predictable.

Vector Dancer is the "furious charge", the "rending" of flyer special rules. Its undeniably the BEST rule that your flyer can get.

[dannypwo]

thanks kawauso, ive added a vulture and all additional components to my FW basket, sounds a pretty solid unit to me :)

[Nabterayl]

Didn't realize you were looking for heavy infantry solutions more than anti-air. If that's the case, I definitely concur that the Vulture is the right choice.

[dannypwo]

i'm probably looking for someone to say 'yes, buy more resin' more than anything. I just had concerns that a relatively static army list with limited mobility was going to eventually get mopped up by the more aggressive assault based armies and DS DW terminators would have a field day once amongst my infantry. A vulture would put a huge amount of fire support and emotional support for myself when they get too close. Admittedly most of my list writing is dictated by theory instead of actual gaming though so i do take consideration here on the more experienced gamers. Magnetising my weapons and changing the load out when i need should be good as i need something a bit tougher against necron flyers :)

[Kawauso]

Well in that case, a punisher-equipped Vulture ought to be able to blow Necron scythes out of the sky pretty reliably.

Most of the time I would think you'd only need to switch to the autocannon/HK missile loadout when you're worried about facing some of the best flyers out there - like Vendettas/Valkyries and Stormravens/eagles. The punisher cannons (and heavy bolter) should allow you to shred anything that's AV 11 or less just through sheer weight of fire.

[Rissan4ever]

i'm probably looking for someone to say 'yes, buy more resin' more than anything. I just had concerns that a relatively static army list with limited mobility was going to eventually get mopped up by the more aggressive assault based armies and DS DW terminators would have a field day once amongst my infantry. A vulture would put a huge amount of fire support and emotional support for myself when they get too close. Admittedly most of my list writing is dictated by theory instead of actual gaming though so i do take consideration here on the more experienced gamers. Magnetising my weapons and changing the load out when i need should be good as i need something a bit tougher against necron flyers :)
The Vulture will definitely help. However, I don't think a static army is a good idea in general. The majority of the missions in 40K involve taking objectives. This means that at least a portion of your army has to be able to move across the table quickly in order to get boots on those objectives and win the game. I'd suggest either getting your hands on some Chimeras or figuring out a way your current list can get those masses of Death Korps to the other side of the table.

[Shotgun Justice]

Since 6th ed landed I haven't played a game without something that can take flyers down, be it simply an aegis and quad cannon or a flyer from IA or a codex, I have, however played a few games where my opponent didn't take a flyer or dedicated anti-air, in those games I have felt I have had an advantage. Even a Stormtalon or 2 can be an enormous boon if the opponent can only hit them on 6's.
I play an Arbites themed army that can choose between Guard, Sisters and Grey Knights for its units and as such I've had the same dilemma as the OP, which flyer to take. The best multi-purpose flyer IMO is the Thunderbolt, although upgraded to carry Hellstrikes it costs 220pts - it can do flyer defence brilliantly, it can take on all AVs except 14 with authority and it can damage other important units. However it is not as fun as either a Vulture or Avenger. The Vulture is turny-wurny goodness and I'm really looking forward to running the so far unmentioned 4 rocket pods set-up for the 1st time on Monday - especially with strafing run. Incidentally it is the lack of strafing run that has turned me against the Thunderbolt. If you take a Vulture you will need something else to take on AV12 flyers. Hydra platforms, as previously mentioned, are your go-to-boys. However I love the Avenger most, I love the model, I really like equipping it with 2 missile launchers and making zooming noises with it and it can be taken by 2 of the armies I play. Also it has a stupid WW2 rear gun and doesn't look as much like a pod racer as people make out. What is not to like?

edit - Don't take Hydra tanks. They have Skyfire but not Interceptor, if your opponent has no flyers, waste of tank. Platforms have both rules

[daboarder]

Fliers aren't that hard to ignore, their weapons can only depress 22.5 degrees to shoot at ground targets, as such there is a large "overfly" zone where they cannot hit units underneath them.

For those who don't know, pg 72 of the BRB limits vehicles to 45degree swivel in the vertical, thus they can go up or down 22.5 degrees about the angles axis.

Note: the exception is the heldrake, as per the FAQ LOS is measured from the base....nasty!

[dannypwo]

although i'm going for starting up at 1000 points i've read that CSM may be running 2 x Heldrakes at this level and having a quick look at what it can do i'm a little concerned now so have dropped my army list's Medusa Siege Carriages down to 2 and with a little rejig have squeezed a vulture into the list. Dependant on what turns up at the gaming table i will change the load out in a second between punisher/AC - HK missiles.

Alternatively, if anyone is selling any of the platforms for a Hydra i would be very interested - FW dont sell them anymore :(

[daboarder]

although i'm going for starting up at 1000 points i've read that CSM may be running 2 x Heldrakes at this level and having a quick look at what it can do i'm a little concerned now so have dropped my army list's Medusa Siege Carriages down to 2 and with a little rejig have squeezed a vulture into the list. Dependant on what turns up at the gaming table i will change the load out in a second between punisher/AC - HK missiles.

Alternatively, if anyone is selling any of the platforms for a Hydra i would be very interested - FW dont sell them anymore :(

List tailoring is poor form don't do it, or all of a sudden my plasma guns are going to be flamers and i'll be running more cultists.

[dannypwo]

List tailoring? I dont need to see the models just know the army im against before deciding the load out . Surely this is in the fitting of the theme of Imperial Navy as they would send air assets most appropriate to the threat? As i havent played a huge amount i'm still learning gaming 'etiquette' so i'll take your points but i'm not a tournament player and it'll be in the beginners games initially so i can play test

[daboarder]

List tailoring? I dont need to see the models just know the army im against before deciding the load out . Surely this is in the fitting of the theme of Imperial Navy as they would send air assets most appropriate to the threat? As i havent played a huge amount i'm still learning gaming 'etiquette' so i'll take your points but i'm not a tournament player and it'll be in the beginners games initially so i can play test

By changing your list just because your playing army XYZ you are tailoring, Using "fluff" as an excuse just makes your already poor form worse, by that reasoning if the CFSM player new he was facing a Deathwing army, he could drop the drakes and take more plasma, its morally not cool don't do it.

if your play testing then that's completely different but changing list "on the fly" is a no go

[dannypwo]

looks like i'll be sticking with the punishers on it for now, sneaky chance at shooting a heldrake in the *** but otherwise i see this as the most fun option to play with.

i suppose if it was all about fluff guys playing defending roles in games would gain accurate fire for any mortars/artillery in light of modern day warfare tactics and the chance to fire missiles out of the air would be there too :(

[rtmaitreya]

As for Hydra tanks, remember that you can still target skimmers normally, which should be your second natural target after fliers. If you are facing the type of enemy that has skimmers in their list, and MIGHT have a flier, the Hydra tank is still a fantastic buy. They are CHEAP and moderately resilient for what they do.

I just wish the Skyfire rule also let you fire at jetbikes normally. The fluff and the rules are completely divergent on this topic, as Hydra flak tanks are just about the WORST possible thing you could fire at a jetbike. 1/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound, and 1/3 failed save = waste of time. You could dakka all game long and not kill a single one. A LASGUN is a better weapon! Seriously, it is.

RTM

[dannypwo]

Well, a post on FW's facebook page has revealed that Death Korps of Krieg will be allowed close air support in the form of thunderbolts, avengers and lightnings BUT no vultures!

My girlfriend is rapidly changing my birthday present into something more 'fluffy' with the Krieg now and is making a phonecall to change the order before its despatched. At least this is one little piece of information to be released before IA12 is released. If Hydra flak platforms are missing on the list or specifically earmarked as none DKOK then I'm going all infantry and big guns!