Who can a Commissar kill?

[eldargal]

Just who in the Imperial Guard hierarchy can be shot by a commissar? Obviously regular infantry and officers, but what about company commanders? Colonels? Majors? Generals?
If a IG army HQ is overrun and the General himself turns to flee, can the commissar shoot him in the face? I guess what I'm asking is at what point would a commissar go too far? Would a Lord (or Lady) Commissar be able to shoot a planetary commander?

[Aldramelech]

I would imagine something along the lines of the Soviet system of political officers.

For every level of Rank within the Imperial Officer Corps there is an equivalent Commissar.

Company Level, Battalion Level, Regimental Level, Army Level. Each level extends downwards but not upwards, although the Commissar would have the ability to make reports to his/her superiors about un-Imperial behavior of his/her superiors.

[Cryl]

I'd guess that the actual authority and written authority are subtly different. In theory a commisar can execute anyone for disloyalty (and many other things!) but I'd guess it's much harder for Commisar Bob straight out of the Schola to execute Lord General McInCharge with any certainty that he wouldn't either be executed for killing a hero of the imperium or shot dead by the Lord Generals guards the minute his bolt pistol left its holster.

That said it's unlikely that a newly trained commisar would be attached to the Lord General or Lord Marshalls staff, I've read things that support what Aldramelech says meaning that Commisar Generals and Lord Commisars would probably have that authority with little fear of reprisal and hence commisars of that rank would be attached to command HQs.

There's not much written about Commisar rank systems though, as far as I can tell we've got Commisars, Commisar Generals and Lord Commisars. I can't be sure that Commisar General isn't a similar concept to Colonel-Commisar Gaunts rank which is both that of Commisar and that of IG Colonel. Anyone know anymore about this?

[rkiviman]

Gaunt is an enigma!! It's not normal for commissars to hold his position and one of actual command of imperial troops. They could command by default or of course casulties, but tactical command is not an option to them usually. From the books read , commissar's operated just like the Soviet political officers. They had total authority in the field relating to any troop or officers reliability in fighting for the Emperor. In other word they can execute or arrest anyone. They seem also to have the authority to conduct drumhead courtmartials of anyone and pass sentence as they see fit. New (junior) commissars seemed to be assigned to a senior commissar and continued their training with them. Once they were judged capable of performing their future duties then would be assigned to a unit(platoon, company, regiment?) Not sure of what the criteria are for what type or size unit they would be assigned too.

[Melissia]

Anyone he can justify killing.

Even civilians for that matter, by declaring martial law.

[RogueGarou]

Gaunt and his mentor were anomalies in that they were granted command ranks in addition to their Commissariat duties. It is uncommon for a Commissar to be given a brevet or official rank in the Imperial military structure. As shown in some of the novels, some members of the command staff and the Commissariat feel this dual duty is essentially a contradiction and poses a conflict of interest.

A commissar can dispense whatever discipline is deemed necessary including corporal punishment, capital punishment, arrest and anything in between. However, as a political officer, they at times must walk a fine line between meting out punishment to maintain discipline and treading carefully through the political scene in their command. Hark, for instance, did not hesitate to execute a command-rank officer but did not execute the men under his command who fled the field of honor. His reasoning was that if the officer had been of stout character and leadership, his men would not have failed and instead provided an opportunity for a better officer to take command. There was some fallout from this action and the possibility of much greater repercussions.

Gaunt could have executed a general at Vervunhive but decided that imprisonment and trial would serve a greater purpose. This decision eventually led to his mission to Gereon and the combination of the Tanith and Belleron indirectly. Yarrick defied a planetary governor's orders; I don't remember if he had a hand in his arrest, though. Essentially, a Commissar can sanction (execute) whoever is found wanting in their presence and purview but they may decide to instead reprimand or otherwise deal with a matter in a less extreme manner due to the politics inherent to their position. Other organizations and officials are not so limited in their power and do not have to take such concerns into account when... executing their duties.

[Nabterayl]

Gaunt may be any enigma, but "commissar general" seems to be a standard commissar rank. The Taros campaign's high command included a commissar general, whose job was to oversee the cadre of commissars involved in the campaign, and to execute the overall commander of the campaign if he felt it necessary.

[Melissia]

Anomalies, but not necessarily uncommon. Cain was given such command several times in the course of his career, even if it was only temporary.

[Just_Me]

Gaunt may be any enigma, but "commissar general" seems to be a standard commissar rank. The Taros campaign's high command included a commissar general, whose job was to oversee the cadre of commissars involved in the campaign, and to execute the overall commander of the campaign if he felt it necessary.

But note that “Commissar General” is not hyphenated like Gaunt’s rank of “Colonel-Commissar.” That’s because where Gaunt hold dual ranks (something quite unusual, though not entirely unique) Commissar General seems to be standard nomenclature for a very senior Commissar, sort of like “attorney general” or “inspector general.” I would surmise that, as Aldramelech suggests, there are broadly equivalent Commissar ranks for most military ranks, probably not direct one-for-one equivalency but equivalency in a general “leveled” sort of way.

In regards to the topic question the short answer seems to “whomever they want to.” However in practice it’s probably not that simple, and as the prestige and power of the individual they are executing goes up, so too will their discretion. At the regimental level the Commissars don’t seem to have much compunction about summary executions (though they would likely baulk at just blowing away Colonels willy-nilly), but above this level they seem to be a bit more restrained. Keep in mind that a Commissar has a slew of legal options ranging from a formal reprimand to a full court-martial before he gets to summary execution. Indeed the “summary” part probably implies that this is pretty much only a battlefield action when there is no time for proper legal action and an immediate solution is required, these sorts of circumstances are unlikely to occur in rear echelon command as there would most likely be ample time and opportunity for proper procedure. Over all it is easy to forget that Commissars are legal body, unlike the Inquisition which is supra-legal the Commissariat has to formally justify its actions, behind the scenes there are probably mountains of paperwork for each summary execution, especially if, Emperor forbid, you kill someone important :D.

[AirHorse]

Just_me has it right Im pretty certain. A commissar of any rank could probaly execute anyone regardless of their rank as long as hes given a justifiable reason for it, the real question is if he has the balls to do it more than anything else. Lets face it if a brand new commissar shot your colonel would you really go complain about it to the commissariat? You are more likely to get shot yourself than for them to do anything about it.

[Nabterayl]

Just_me has it right Im pretty certain. A commissar of any rank could probaly execute anyone regardless of their rank as long as hes given a justifiable reason for it, the real question is if he has the balls to do it more than anything else. Lets face it if a brand new commissar shot your colonel would you really go complain about it to the commissariat? You are more likely to get shot yourself than for them to do anything about it.

I concur.

[eldargal]

That would make sense. I know hypthetically the commissar can shoot anyone, it just struck me as being a bit simplistic. Lord Castellan Creed is having a bad day. His pet kitty has a bowel obstructiom, Kell just got ran over by a baneblade. His HQ is under massive attack, so he calls a strategic retreat. Commissar Bob accuses him of cowardice and blows his brains out. This should be able to happen, but its just so wrong. Imagine the repercussions, you would have to be a commissar of Yarricks standing to get away with it. And Yarrick would probably not be such an arse to begin with.

[Lord Anubis]

Commissar Bob accuses him of cowardice and blows his brains out. This should be able to happen, but its just so wrong. Imagine the repercussions, you would have to be a commissar of Yarricks standing to get away with it.

I don't have it in front of me, but wasn't it in the old Catachan Codex that any attempt by a Commissar to enforce discipline would lead to a nasty accident? One where the Commissar accidentally fell in a man-trap or a Catachan Devil nest or something like that...?

;)

[rkiviman]

That still doesn't stop them from doing what's necessary. In Gaunt's novels there are even references of other commissar's being eliminated. Even Gaunt had to have eyes in the back of his head(in his case his un-official aide de camp watched out for him). In the book Deathwing the Cadians eliminated a commissar who wasn't from Cadia and threatened their commander. Their not present for popularity contests or to worry about what anyone else thinks of their duties. They serve the Emperor and nothing is to get in the way of performing their duty.A lot of power and authority are in their hands and they use it as needed. Soldiers have to hope they get a commissar who will be fair minded. :rolleyes:

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, commissars in Catachan regiments have a habit of "accidentally taking enemy fire".

But on topic, I think commissars can execute anyone, but the higher the rank the more paperwork and justification is needed. Plus, they can easily replace a standard trooper, not so easily replace a Colonel or General.

Plus, executions aren't always the most tactful way of restoring discipline, as trigger-happy commissars tend to get shot in combat.

[Just_Me]

Yeah, commissars in Catachan regiments have a habit of "accidentally taking enemy fire".

...in the back ;).

[Nabterayl]

I think this is one of the benefits of the commissariat having its own rank structure. If you're some lowly commissar lieutenant attached to a platoon, you could shoot the regiment's colonel - but as other people have said, there's lots of reasons why you might not feel comfortable/safe doing that. Fortunately for you, there's a commissar colonel over at regimental HQ. He's not only more senior to you (and thus less likely to have his career torpedoed by the colonel's vindictive family or political patrons), he's also actually been around the person he's executing. Therefore, he's less likely to execute the colonel just because he's having an off moment - unlike the lower-ranked commissars in the regiment, he's in a position to know if the colonel exhibits a true pattern of incompetence or cowardice.

[Sam]

About the whole Gaunt thing, with regards to the rank of commissar general. As a colonel-commissar, Gaunt is a commissar in addition to being a colonel (which I'm fairly certain everyone already understood). Commissar general is a rank only within the Commissariat, having authority over ordinary commissars and being able to assign commissars to regiments and promote cadet commissars to the rank of commissar.

[Sam]

As for who a commissar can summarily execute, there doesn't seem to be any official limitations. Gaunt was going to execute Lord General Noches Sturm in one of the books. He didn't do it, but as he was going to, it was clearly within his power. They don't get much bigger than lord generals.

[Psychosplodge]

About the whole Gaunt thing, with regards to the rank of commissar general. As a colonel-commissar, Gaunt is a commissar in addition to being a colonel (which I'm fairly certain everyone already understood). Commissar general is a rank only within the Commissariat, having authority over ordinary commissars and being able to assign commissars to regiments and promote cadet commissars to the rank of commissar.

He's more a colonel in addition to being a commmissar, I can't imagine the commissarat inducting serving officers as commissars, but Commissar Gaunt was made Colonel-commissar for his service(Balhut?), and considering the background of commissars coming from the schoola proginam (or whatever it's called), the imperial orphanage for loyal servants offspring, are indoctrinated apropriatl. Whereas imperial guard officers are mostly pdf, minor aristocracy etc with too many other ties, split loyalties etc to make commissars...

But back to the point, If you can justify it and have the balls to do it, you could theoreticly execute a Highlord of Terra under martial law as a commissar...

[RogueGarou]

Exactly. Both Oktar and Gaunt received actual rank within the Guard hierarchy in addition to their Commissar status. Cain was given what amounts to a brevet rank. Brevet ranks are essentially defunct in the United States military structure these days but are still used in other national forces.

As has been shown, a Commissar has vast purview of the execution of their duties but since they are a political officer, they have to take a great many things into consideration including the ramifications of their actions. Even if they are entirely justified and warranted to perform a summary judgment and execute an officer or trooper or whoever else but they may still decide not to execute that person because of the fallout within the Commissariat. The Commissariat is a military-esque organization but it has its own halls of power and power brokers who may make decisions based not upon military or even disciplinary reasons but because of more nebulous reasons. For example, there have been instances where a person was not reprimanded by the Commissariat due to family connections.

[miteyheroes]

The Commissar Cain stories often comment on how particularly harsh commissars frequently die in friendly fire accidents...

Gods I love the Cain books. They're just such wonderfully funny and subversive looks at 40k.

[Nabterayl]

There's also the purely military considerations. Even if somebody deserves to be shot, a good commissar needs to ask himself who is going to step into that person's shoes. Their ultimate goal, after all, is the success of the military operation, not the punishment of personal cowardice or incompetence. In some circumstances it might be better to relieve somebody of command rather than shoot them. You don't want this to be you:


"For cowardice in the face of the enemy, Major, I sentence you to death in the name of God Emperor." Blam "Excellent ... now, Lieutenant, what's the next objective for C Company on the eastern front?"

"Um ... I don't know, sir. Only Major Hargraves knew that, and you ... um, just shot him, sir."

Going back to eldargirl's example about Creed, suppose he does have an off day and just abandons his post in outright terror. Certainly an executable offense, but is punishing that one lapse really worth depriving Cadia of the military resource Ursarkar Creed represents? Hopefully any commissar asking himself that question has the sense to answer, "No."

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, the downsides of executing a regiment's commanding officer would be:

1. If he was particularly well-liked by the troopers, that commissar ain't gonna last long.
2. As I've said previously, it would be a bit difficult to replace said officer. They could promote a lesser officer to command, but he could be inexperienced or outright incompetent and thus undermine the regiment.
3. Executing officers willy-nilly would not only seriously undermine the regiment's fighting effectiveness, but it would devastate morale. And morale is one of the commissar's main jobs to maintain.

Just because they can doesn't mean they should or will. I could run down the street of my town completely naked, but that don't mean that it is a smart move. I'd get charged.

[rkiviman]

Gaunt is a commissar. Being a colonel in command is unique. A great example of how far a commissar is willing to go for duties sake is in the new release "Cadian's Blood". A commissar was brought into a suspect unit....I'll leave it there. You'll have to read the book!! The commissar's seem to have complete authority in the field of operations at their levels of influence(platoons, companies, regiments.etc..) Their only control seems to be their level of conscience based on what they believe the Emperor would have them do. They mete out imperial justice not only for discipline's sake but also for any suspected "taint" of chaos in the ranks. So their duties relating to a unit's function is all encompassing( discipline, faith etc..):(

[Ole]

I really think, Cain sums it up best: You gotta be very careful as a commissar. You may have the authority to execute soldiers and officers alike, but then again, you are alone... and those you just shot usually have friends with weapons. And to keep on punishing each and every little thing is probably also just plain bad for moral in the regiment.

[The Sin of Pride]

I really think, Cain sums it up best: You gotta be very careful as a commissar. You may have the authority to execute soldiers and officers alike, but then again, you are alone... and those you just shot usually have friends with weapons. And to keep on punishing each and every little thing is probably also just plain bad for moral in the regiment.

Exactly.. I think there are probably quite a few Commissars who have been involved in (not so-)friendly fire incidents!

[Just_Me]

Exactly.. I think there are probably quite a few Commissars who have been involved in (not so-)friendly fire incidents!

There were actual rules for that in the old 3rd/4th edition Deathworld Veterans web-dex from GW, the rule was called "Oops, Sorry Sir..." (or something very much like it).

[Denzark]

There's also the purely military considerations. Even if somebody deserves to be shot, a good commissar needs to ask himself who is going to step into that person's shoes. Their ultimate goal, after all, is the success of the military operation, not the punishment of personal cowardice or incompetence. In some circumstances it might be better to relieve somebody of command rather than shoot them. You don't want this to be you:


"For cowardice in the face of the enemy, Major, I sentence you to death in the name of God Emperor." Blam "Excellent ... now, Lieutenant, what's the next objective for C Company on the eastern front?"

"Um ... I don't know, sir. Only Major Hargraves knew that, and you ... um, just shot him, sir."

Going back to eldargirl's example about Creed, suppose he does have an off day and just abandons his post in outright terror. Certainly an executable offense, but is punishing that one lapse really worth depriving Cadia of the military resource Ursarkar Creed represents? Hopefully any commissar asking himself that question has the sense to answer, "No."

With regard to military considerations, even a monolithic russian-esque army like the guard would let the subordinates know what the objective is - even if it is something simple such as 'take that hill' or 'kill that enemy position'. Once taken, you would obviously vox for further orders - or send or wait for a runner if no comms. So, the punishment, which it is, also assists the success of the operation by providing deterrence of failure or cowardice, and also has another important factor - the troops are more scared of the commissar than they are the enemy.

As to Creed, commissars deal in absolutes. One critical failure would be punished severely and immediately:

"A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy..."

Quite simply the impact of allowing cowardice and disobedience is seen as of far more impact to the imperium than the loss of a highly trained and exspensivley equipped officer, evne one of Creed's rank...