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View Full Version : What should GW do with Codex: Space Marines, 6th Edition?



Truculent Sheep
02-18-2013, 04:59 PM
What would I do if I were in charge of Games Workshop for a day? Well, apart from ensuring I became John Blanche’s special secret sparkle pony friend, I’d force the development team to develop a Squat codex at the point of a Volkite caliver. Then I would face up to the biggie - Codex: Space Marines, 6th Edition.

In many ways, this would be the toughest project one could imagine. Games Workshop itself has tried and failed many times. Starting in 1995, Codex: Ultramarines was so vanilla, you could <insert crap ice cream joke here>. 3rd Edition Codex: Space Marines was, likewise, a bit flavourless, and required splatpacks to liven it up. Fans of fully CA compliant chapters could, meanwhile, get lost.

Fourth Edition saw a Codex with customisation at its heart, in the form of the Chapter Traits system, but was clumsy and inflexible. Codex compliant players and their armies, meanwhile, were left with little to play with, barring the Ultramarines Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans.

Then Fifth Edition came along and ruined everyone’s party. On the one hand, it made all Codex Chapters utterly uniform in a fashion Robute Guilleman could never have hoped for, while only allowing Chapter Traits if you purchased a Special Character. (Which is rather odd, unless one assumes Shrike is the only Captain in the Raven Guard, or has been cloned multiple times.)

Good news for the Ultramarines, of course, who basked in the glory of any number of special characters which, improbably, non-Ultra players were told they could use in their own armies because nothing says individuality more than hundreds of bald, bearded blokes, with silenced bolters, leading scout squads into battle.

Then there was the partisanship, where players of non-Ultramarine armies were left to feel like that kid with nits and a ZX Spectrum where everyone else was playing on their Commodore Amigas and strutting around with their Air Nikes.

This is not to say that the Codex was entirely awful. It did work, after all, and no one has yet died while using its army list Sternguard veterans were a great idea, the Thunderstrike Cannon was cool and the Combat Tactics rule was welcome. Still, like all the other SM codices that didn’t focus on one or two Chapters, it failed.

So how would I go about guzzling the contents of this poison chalice? Simple. The problem has always been that the Codices have all tried to be all things to all men and do too much at once. This has simply not worked.
So instead of bringing out one Codex, bring out four. From GW’s perspective, this will make more sense as it gets to sell more books. For players, it makes sense because they will be able, finally, to get the rules to match their chosen Chapters.

The inspiration for this lies in the classic Codex: Angels of Death, back in 1996. The concept worked as it didn’t just focus on one Chapter, but two, and also linked them together with a shared theme and allowed players to get, in effect, two codices for the price of one. But more on that later.

Because the first book would be Codex: Space Marines, 6th edition, and it would focus exclusively on those Chapters that either fully or very closely comply with the Codex
Astartes. Beyond the usual fluff, it would feature a definitive Codex Chapter list, with lots of special rules and unique units that would, finally, make the Ultramarines a force to be reckoned with. The Codex would, however, have rules to cover Chapters like the Imperial Fists, Mortifactors and Blood Ravens who diverge just a little bit from Codex doctrine, for one reason or another, but are otherwise keen adherents. (“Stehl Rehn!!!”) As such, and in exchange for some unit options and special rules, players could field minor divergent armies too, without breaking the army list, but also allowing some customisation.

The next Codex, however, would be Fire & Shadow, a Codex that covers the Salamanders and Raven Guard (in a Codex: Angels of Death style-ee). This, finally, would give both Chapters a working, distinctive army list, with the running theme in both cases being that of ancient loss - be it the Salamanders’ quest to find their Primarch, or the Raven Guard’s ongoing trauma at the near disaster at Istvaan IV and the subsequent disappearance of Corax..

Then there would be Iron Scars, a codex covering both the Iron Hands and (FINALLY!) the White Scars. These very different armies would be connected by the theme of revelation. For the Iron Hands and their successors, it comes in the form of rediscovered writings by Ferrus Manus that call into question their modus operandi, threatening another schism; for the White Scars, it is a major discovery about the ultimate fate of Jaghatai Khan that drives them and their successors to form the Great Hunt, with conquest as their goal.

Fun and frolics would include Venerable Dreadnoughts flanked by a Talon bodyguard; custom bionics; weird science; jetbikes; cyborg steeds; combat servitors and all the cool bits from Mongol multiplied by the power of 10.

Both these Codices would also contain rules for successor chapters, such as the Sons of Medusa, Storm Giants, Black Dragons, Mantis Warriors, Rampagers and so on, finally giving these neglected chapters a much-deserved spotlight.

The final tome would be published by Forgeworld, and would be the definitive guide to creating your own Chapter from scratch. This deluxe guide would cover just about every possibility, allowing you to customise armies and even create your own special characters. It would also feature lists for Chapters such as the Iron Snakes, Lamenters, Cacharadons, Mentors, Rainbow Warriors and more. Also, the Adeptus Custodes and Chapters who’ve turned renegade but not necessarily thrown their lot in with Chaos.

And that’s how I’d fix the Space Marines. What, however, are the odds that they will jam it into one book again, and bodge the results horribly? I’ll leave it at that.

Dalleron
02-21-2013, 01:56 AM
I imagine that C:SM will be similiar to what it is now. Basically, every chapter of SM out there right now follows the codex to a fairly large degree, save the space puppies and BT. I imagine the only reason that DA and BA have their own codex's right now is they had their own codex in the past. There is no reason that they couldn't all be in one big army book.

Sure it would be one large book, probably expensive too due to the size. Obviously, to do the chapters that have books now, there would be many special characters, with some chapters having multiple SC's. I didn't play marines with the chapter tactics, so I can't comment how well it worked, but it seemed confusing to me as an outsider.

The thing is if you want an assaulty chapter, there are other books you can use if you don't like the Ultramarine book. Don't get fooled into using one book to be the only book.

spaceman91
02-21-2013, 02:10 AM
I think its a bit harsh to say the codex failed. I like the codex as it is. Its not op its not up. You can do lots of different things with and still get it to work well. A little polish and it would be perfect again. I will concede that the special characters could do with some more flavour but meh not too fussed myself. Before anyone says it i am not a smurf player.

eldargal
02-21-2013, 02:15 AM
Poke it with a stick then run and hide.


So instead of bringing out one Codex, bring out four.
God no. Just no. there is enough Marine fell atio without that. I don't give a damn whether C:SM doesn't suit the whim of every SM player, you get enough attention already. Half the bloody codices in the game are some flavour of marine or other. If you can't find one which gives you what you want for a Marine force then too bad.

spaceman91
02-21-2013, 02:18 AM
Im with EG. If you cant find what you like try a different army.

Learn2Eel
02-21-2013, 03:19 AM
Poke it with a stick then run and hide.


God no. Just no. there is enough Marine fell atio without that. I don't give a damn whether C:SM doesn't suit the whim of every SM player, you get enough attention already. Half the bloody codices in the game are some flavour of marine or other. If you can't find one which gives you what you want for a Marine force then too bad.

Agreed. Pretty silly to say there should be even more Space Marine codices when one could make a very strong claim that Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and even Daemons should have multiple codices to represent them accurately. And I'm sure players would be able to say the same thing about a few others too.

Neat idea, but no thanks.

eldargal
02-21-2013, 03:36 AM
Exactly, to say the Space Marine codex failed because it tried to be everything to everyone is to ignore the fact that every codex does exactly that. Want to play Alaitoc with it focus on fast deployments and scouts? You get C:Eldar. Want to play Biel-Tan with its focus on Aspect Warriors? You get C:Eldar. Want to play Emperors Children? You get C:SM. Want to play Black Legion? You get C:CSM. Want to play a Wych Cult? You get C: DE. Want to play a haemonculi coven? You get C: DE. Etcetera. If you do down this path then we would need god knows how many codices.

As it is Space Marines have it easy. You have six codices (not including C:CSM which are still marines) to choose from to represent your chosen chapter best. Complaining about that is verging on the offensive. Obviously Space Marines players are entitled to a good codex like every one else but to argue the best thing GW could do is make more Marine codices indicates a very inflated sense of self entitlement. An argument can be made for the very opposite, that one very large codex with seperate army lists for each first founding chapter and a generic codex chapter list would be the most efficient use of GWs time and energy. That won't happen either, though, as people with chapters that have had their own codex since 2nd edition understandably frown upon being lumped in with everyone else.

miteyheroes
02-21-2013, 03:49 AM
We currently have 6.5 Space Marine codices vs 8.5 non-Space Marine codices (counting the Black Templars and Sisters of Battle as half each!) You can have normal Space Marines, robed plasma-wielding Space Marines, tabarded hoard Space Marines, bloodthirsty close combat Space Marines, heroic Viking Space Marines, entirely psychic Space Marines and daemonic Space Marines. That's enough Space Marine options.

The vast majority of Space Marines are meant to stick religiously to one ultimate guide, the Codex Astartes. Anyone following that shouldn't have lots of individuality, they should be all roughly the same! They definitely don't need four codices just for them.

On the other hand, I agree that Chapter Traits should be non-special character specific. Have a list of Chapter Traits you can upgrade the army with, or something?

Wolfshade
02-21-2013, 04:13 AM
I don't think 5th failed. I thought it was a major improvement.
I loved the idea that you buy a character to unlock something and thematically it makes sense, captain on bike - bikes are troops.

I think that you need to recall 3rd ed codex in a larger picture, yes you have a flawed trait system that didn't really encourage you to use them but for the BAs for intance their codex was a waffer thin "See Codex: Space Marine" for every shared unit and then the bonus BA ones had their own mini entries. It was a novel idea, it showed that BAs were basicaly adherent but still had tehir own flavour on top. But it didn't let you play in a fundamentally different way, Assault Marines were still fast choices and they were competing against things like Baals for their precious slots.

The current codex does. Can I play a biker army? Yes. Can I play a foot slogging army? Yes. Can I specialise in anti-tank (melta)? Yes. Can I field a stealth scout army? Yes! (Though your capatin will be in power armour.
There are some things that I would like to do with a Codex Marine which I can't do;

+ Field an entire JP army (but I have codex Blood Angels for that)
+ Field an entire Terminator army (but I have codex Dark Angels for that)
+ Field an enitre armoured legion, tanks only (The spearhead(?) add-on let me do this to a point, but at the moment vehicles are not scoring units and so the codex and BRB are stopping me, indeed I am concerned what this would do with balance)

miteyheroes
02-21-2013, 04:31 AM
+ Field an entire Terminator army (but I have codex Dark Angels for that)

Or Codex: Space Wolves with Logan, Codex: Chaos Space Marines with Abaddon or Codex: Grey Knights. 4 out of 6.5 Space Marine codices allow all-Terminator armies.

spaceman91
02-21-2013, 04:38 AM
Im going to say something now that stir the pot but i dont think there are to many SM codexs(?). There are just the right amount. The thing is there isn't enough of everything else to even it up. it would be good to see some new armies appear. It won't happen but it would be nice.

Learn2Eel
02-21-2013, 05:05 AM
Or Codex: Space Wolves with Logan, Codex: Chaos Space Marines with Abaddon or Codex: Grey Knights. 4 out of 6.5 Space Marine codices allow all-Terminator armies.

Just a note, Abaddon doesn't make Terminators Troops, he makes Chosen Troops.

Cap'nSmurfs
02-21-2013, 05:52 AM
I really like Codex: Space Marines as it is. Are there a few things I would change? Sure. Would it be nice to have some cool new toys? Definitely, but given that the codex has actually been regularly updated with new units - two awesome new flyers, anyone? - that's not such a pressing concern.

We don't need more marine codexes. Everyone wants Their chapter to be special, precious snowflakes, but they're not. They follow the Codex Astartes. Every chapter has room for variations *within the existing framework*. Take an all-flyer list for Hawk Lords. Lots of big guns and Ironclad Dreadnoughts for Imperial Fists when they're taking down a fortress. A bike list for White Scars. Assault Marines for Raven Guard. You can already do this. There's an amazing amount of flexibility in that codex.

You don't need special rules for flexibility, themes, or fluff.

As for special characters, either you don't actually need them, or you could make your own up, you know - what happened to the days when people wrote their own and agreed with their opponent that they could use them? Or, to respond to the OP's crack about lots of bald Telions - why not convert your own model and use Telion's rules? So long as your opponent knows and agrees, there's no problem with this. The Ultramarines special characters are archetypes (which Ward even said, although everyone ignores the things he says that make sense) - lots of chapters have a dashing, surprise-attacking Sicarius-type leader, their best line captain. Lots of them have an ace tank commander. While there's probably only one Calgar, the others could be moulded to fit a custom (or extant) chapter with a little imagination.

Or, of course, if you really must hark back to the days when all the Space Marines Were Special And Different (except not really), then maybe the Horus Heresy is for you.

Brakkart
02-21-2013, 05:54 AM
Much as I would love a Codex: Imperial Fists (or even one that combined the Imp Fists with their Crimson Fist and Black Templar brethren) I have to agree that there are enough Marine books already. So tossing the idea of any more of them in the garbage, what would we like to see in a 6th edition Codex: Space Marines as I feel that would be a more worthy use of this thread.

Here a few things I would like to see:

A few pages of Chapter Traits to allow people to add a bit of customisation to their Chapter and to help them emulate the individual traits of specific chapters.

Some more special characters and if need be drop a couple of the Ultramarine ones, like Chronus and Cassius to get in others from different chapters as I'd like to see a less Ultramarine-centric book (which I know probably won't happen but hey it's a wishlist).

Honour Guard to have a better selection of gear options (they are the Chapters uber-elite after all, they should get first pick from the armoury) and to be able to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport (which they should be allowed, esp given that the current book shows off Marneus' personal Raider Maximus, which he cannot even take at present!). A plastic kit would be nice here too!

Land Speeder Storms to be moved to Dedicated Transport to be able to be taken by Scout squads.

Devastator Squads weapon options to be a bit cheaper as they are prohibitive at the moment.

Whirlwind and regular missile launchers to have an anti-air missile option.

Some new vehicle of some sort, I'd like to see the Sabre Tank Hunter from the old epic range made into a 40k scale kit.

imperialpower
02-21-2013, 06:06 AM
Until the buzz for the 30K Space marines has died down I doubt that a new 40k codex will come out any time soon.

Wolfshade
02-21-2013, 06:28 AM
I don't know, i think that this is the first time that a new edition has been heralded with a codex hand in hand.

Mr. Furious
02-21-2013, 07:33 AM
It's a very solid book and has quite a bit of life left in it. I would love to see some of the neglected armies get their books and lines updated long before we see another SM book.

Mr Mystery
02-21-2013, 07:34 AM
I think they should write it. Playtest it. Get it printed, then nail it to a frisbee and throw it away.

That's what I think.

Wolfshade
02-21-2013, 08:15 AM
Would be hard to open with a nailed frisbee... also frisbee is a registered trademark...

spaceman91
02-21-2013, 09:19 AM
Way to much hate going round at the moment.

Mr Mystery
02-21-2013, 09:30 AM
I'm not hateful.

I'm just daft :)

Truculent Sheep
02-21-2013, 10:00 AM
So, no love?

I will point out that vanilla marines need more than one book, otherwise they will be doomed to being either broken or hidebound.

Also, just assuming everyone will just use another existing Codex if they don't want to play Vanilla Marines is rather limited too. There's around a thousand Chapters out there. Why not have rules that let you tailor your own army? Unless you've overlooked the cardinal sin of C:SM 5th edition, which was to attempt to shoehorn too much into one volume.

And yes, comparisons to the new C:CSM book will be made, but there's a lot of difference between Chaos (where the lack of structure means you can jam it all into one book) and Imperial Space Marines who are, in their own way, far more diverse and idiosyncratic.

The success of Horus Heresy Vol 1 does, in any case, suggest a keenness for Space Marines outside the straightjacket of edition 5.

miteyheroes
02-21-2013, 10:10 AM
Just a note, Abaddon doesn't make Terminators Troops, he makes Chosen Troops.

D'oh! True. Getting confused. It's probably old age. Did Abaddon have some sort of Terminator-related special rule in a previous edition?

Spamthulhu
02-21-2013, 01:14 PM
I would make it a far more flexible codex that allows armies to be built for purpose. Chapters follow the Codex Astartes but not every battle has marines sent in a standard formation. There are first companies and scout companies. They should build the army with flexibility and unque army configurations. Make units very functional at their roles for once. Assault marines need something to be useful. It needs more flavor to build all those different armies.

Simply they should honestly make a single Codex that covers all Space marines. No more of this 6 marine codex BS. With one book I should be able to play any format of marine army that I wanted to play by picking commanders and special rules that form my army.

It would take a lot of work to balance but it should represent the variety of the Space Marine itself. Mostly just fix points. Assault Marines should be a lot cheaper. The standard marine is okay but a small decrease in upgrade costs would work well.

I would have small mini chapters dedicated to the special chapters with their special rules and alterations. All the units can fit into one book. For god sake give some versatility to the army. When you sit down to a game with a marine player you should have to worry about what he may do. Make an assault functional option for the C:SM.