=I=

[Just_Me]

Ok ladies and germs, I have recently been rereading Abnett’s Eisenhorn series just because it’s that awesome (honestly among my favorite series of all time, not just out of those from the Black Library). This got me thinking, it strikes me that current Codex books are not only extremely out of date, but don’t really do justice to the fluff of the Inquisition (our Stormtroopers are now way worse than their Guard counterparts and there are no provisions for the Ordos Xenos, to name but a few examples).

I’m not here to argue that we deserve attention before some of the other armies with an outdated Codex, I will be the first one to champion the Dark Eldar and Necron cause in this department, but I think we deserve some love. Keeping in mind that I don’t expect to see a new Inquisition Codex for a year or so, what rumors have we heard about a new Codex? Or failing that what would we like to see in a new codex? Should it be unified? Or should each Ordos have its own Codex? What about the Adepta Sororitas and Grey Knights, should they get their own Codexes?

Now I have had an Inquisition army for some time, it’s very small (660 points at last count), and mostly just an excuse to put some really cool and unusual models together in one group (let’s hear it FW’s Solomon Lok model!). I imagine them as Ordos Xenos operatives, but run them in a Witch Hunter’s list because it seems to me like a better fit than the Daemon Hunters. In building my army list and trying to tweak into what I imagine it I have come up with some very general ideas of my own about what I would like to see in a new codex:

•I would like a unified codex for all of the Ordos with a single Inquisitor Lord option similar to the one we have (the Iron Will ability is very fluffy and makes perfect sense to me, although I think the stat lines should go up).

•Retinues could use a system similar to the Advisors in the new Guard codex.

•The Lord could pick his Ordos in a way similar to how Chaos Lords choose Marks, the lord could choose only one and it would give some very specific benefits.

•Inquisitor Lords should be able to choose whether or not to be psykers (not all of them are), and should be able to further upgrade their psychic abilities to use more than one power (in the fluff Inquisitors have been some of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium).

•The Orders Militant should EACH have an HQ option (Grandmaster, Canoness, Deathwatch Captain or Librarian).

•Taking any lord (including the Inquisitor Lord) one “unlocks” its associated troops (if you take a Grandmaster you can take Grey Knights, if you take in Inquisitor Lord you can take Inquisitional Stormtroopers).

•Inquisitorial Stormtroopers should be brought into line with the Guard equivalent, and should have some additional options to reflect their Inquisitorial service (perhaps Stubborn in place of Special Operations).

•The Assassin rules are still fairly solid but need to be upgraded to the current edition (e.g. the Eversor’s Fast Shot)

•The list should continue to be fairly limited in very long ranged firepower and tanks (the Inquisition isn’t supposed to be a main combat force).

•Allies rules need to be updated to reflect the new Codexes.

•The Adversaries rules are cool and fluffy but desperately need to be tweaked, they should be additional options for opponents not mini-lists.

Problems: organizing things in this way would result in a LOT of options, at least on par with the number of options available in the Space Marine Codex, and probably greater. I would be willing to consider giving the Adepta Sororitas their own Codex (i.e. forces of the Ministorum perhaps?) but frankly we don’t need more imperial lists, and combining the all of the Inquisition forces under one list seems to me to be the best (if not the simplest) option.

Anyhow, that’s my 2 cents, but I would love to hear the views of my fellow Inquisitors.

EDIT: my apologies if this post is in the wrong place, I debated whether this post belonged in rumors or in general discussion, and in the end I felt rumors was the best place for it even though I don't have any new rumors of my own to pass along.

[Bigred]

Moved to 40k general

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights can be fleshed out enough to get their own codex. Sisters of battle effectively already do have their own codex.

Essensially, here's how their idea works (and basically how you idea works)

1. The core list consists of the Inquisition units, with no Deathwatch, Grey Knights or Sisters of battle.
2. Each of the Chambers Militant have seperate, side lists, each self contained and complete within themselves.
3. If an HQ from on of the four different lists is taken, then any units from that list is taken.

It's a fairly simple system that preserves the allies concept. It also allows you to mix and match quite a bit. I can keep my pure Grey Knights (why take a feeble human Inquisitor, when I can take Space Marines with Jedi Powers:D), while you could take pure Inquisition, or Deathwatch, or both or... you get the idea.

If they can make a 144pg codex for the Space Marines, they can follow this layout and easily fit all four army lists in the same codex, with enough room to fully flesh out the Grey Knights and Deathwatch, and preserve the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitorial units.

[Melissia]

•I would like a unified codex for all of the Ordos with a single Inquisitor Lord option similar to the one we have (the Iron Will ability is very fluffy and makes perfect sense to me, although I think the stat lines should go up). This is a horrible idea, and in fact would be a disaster waiting to happen. IMO GW is, quite frankly, incapable of mashing four separate factions together into one codex and doing them all justice. Thank the Emperor that GW's leaning away from it.


•The list should continue to be fairly limited in very long ranged firepower and tanks (the Inquisition isn’t supposed to be a main combat force).
The Inquisition isn't a proper army. The Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters of Battle are. So the Inquisition can rot in its own military inadequacies for all I care, let the REAL armies have the firepower. That's why the Inquisition calls on them.

[Aegis]

Obviously the Inquisition has there own, albeit small, military force, otherwise how would explain the Inquisitorial guards, and the crews of the Black ships. Hell, some Inquisitor's Retinue's are a small army unto themselves (using Commodus Voke as an example, in Xenos it mentions a retinue of upwards to 50 some agents).

Personally, I would prefer to see the ally rule gone. It is a messy rule, causes to much confusion, and frankly, dilutes the Inquisition's cool factor a bit. I have read too many suggestions for army lists that cherry pick Inquisitorial units, essentially gaining some neat elements, and making them less unique.

Meanwhile, on the subject of an amalgamated codex, I could see it being hit or miss.Rather than have it set up as three separate forces in one book, though, it would better to expand the idea that Just_Me presented with the Inquisitors taking an Ordo, which would then impart certain options.

For instance, an Inquisitor takes the Ordo Xenos, and unlocks the Deathwatch for use in battle.

[eagleboy7259]

I feel like in that system nobody would use the inquisitor. How often do you see people using two HQ choices regularly? Not to mention I don't really like that Deathwing, Ravenwing, Wolfwing, system where you need an SC to pick the army you want but having regular HQ units with that option use that might be more viable. I think the Inquisitor would need something like what chaos lords used to have with cult marines: you could give the Inquisitor a "mark" or the Ordo Xenos, Mallues, Hereticus, etc. I don't think it should be as white and black as having almost three seperate lists that you have access to because of one unit, but penalties should definitely be in place, such as all GK units are 0-1 without an Inquisitor Mallues or GK Grand Master or you are allowed 0-2 of all GK units (GK Teleport Attack, GK Purgation, GK Dread...) without GK HQ. Also you need to decided whether a non order specific army would be viable, you know assassins, stormtroopers, etc. or whether each HQ HAD TO be of one order. If that was the case, non-order units should be gain some bonus or penalty when used.

[Melissia]

Obviously the Inquisition has there own, albeit small, military force, otherwise how would explain the Inquisitorial guards, and the crews of the Black ships. Hell, some Inquisitor's Retinue's are a small army unto themselves (using Commodus Voke as an example, in Xenos it mentions a retinue of upwards to 50 some agents).

Which is about the same as noblemen having their own personal armies, except they're somewhat better equipped (sometimes-- Dark Heresy has one particular group actually having a variety of light power armor, which is better than anything inquisitorial stormtroopers have for the most part).

In the end, they still aren't a REAL army, just a bunch of bodyguards. The Inquisition calls on other peoples' armies to do its dirty work when they need to take such an overt action. It's just what they do. And the Ordos Militant are armies which have long standing agreements with the Inquisition to answer those calls.

A far, far better solution would simply be to have an Inquisition minidex which contains the rules for assassins, inquisitors, and =][= stormies, and then ally rules for adding these units to Imperial armies-- and then to give the Sororitas, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch their own codices or minidex (in the case of Deathwatch).

[Just_Me]

The Inquisition isn't a proper army. The Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters of Battle are. So the Inquisition can rot in its own military inadequacies for all I care, let the REAL armies have the firepower. That's why the Inquisition calls on them.

But they really aren’t. The Grey Knights and Deathwatch are very specialized forces designed to be employed only under very specific circumstances, outside of which they are not particularly effective. No one would dream of employing the Grey Knights in an armoured conflict or siege engagement, that would be laughably stupid, they kill Daemons and they do that very damned well but that’s really all they do. And why would we want Grey Knights or Deathwatch Codexes? Do we really need another variant marine list (don't get me wrong, I love the Astartes and I have an extensive Marine army, but really... :p).

The only exception is the Adeptas Sororitas, but as we have discussed in the “Adepta Sororitas Operations” thread they are limited in their sphere of operations. They are the only ones who have a robust enough order of battle to potentially have their own Codex.

[Melissia]

The only exception is the Adeptas Sororitas, but as we have discussed in the “Adepta Sororitas Operations” thread they are limited in their sphere of operations. They are the only ones who have a robust enough order of battle to potentially have their own Codex.

Only because GW hasn't seen fit to expand the information we have regarding it. The reason that thread is going the direction it is is because we just don't know much about them in comparison to the Guard and Astartes. A half-assed amalgamated codex-- and with GW producing it, it's going to be half-assed, they ****ed up when they produced C:WH and that only mashed two separate forces into one codex, nevermind FOUR-- will solve nothing.

[Aegis]

The Minidex, though, just seems to be both too infeasible an idea, and not in standing with the direction GW appears to moving. Of course, not being involved with GW in any larger sense than an enthusiast of their product, I cannot say for certain.

Just from what we have seen with both the Guard and Space Marine codices, a complied anthology of the Inquisition seems far more likely.

One thing I failed to mention in my previous post, would be that it would prudent to include the listings for the Ordos Militant, in addition to the core Inquisitorial forces. So, Sisters, Knights and Deathwatch would all be included in such a book (and for the time being, I am putting aside the fact that the Sisters has more than enough reason to have their own codex).

Alternatively, they could flesh out Inquisitorial forces, and put strong emphasis on the elite nature of their resources, with inclusion of Interrogators, Primary throne agents, Stormtroopers, and even Rogue Traders. The big issue there, however, would be that it would like too much like a Dogs of War style army.

[Aegis]

Only because GW hasn't seen fit to expand the information we have regarding it. The reason that thread is going the direction it is is because we just don't know much about them in comparison to the Guard and Astartes. A half-assed amalgamated codex-- and with GW producing it, it's going to be half-assed, they ****ed up when they produced C:WH and that only mashed two separate forces into one codex, nevermind FOUR-- will solve nothing.

I believe Jervis addressed that issue t one point, stating that the codex was rushed to capitalize on the popularity(?) of their newly launched Inquisitor game system. When he was interviewed, he almost seemed to lament the project, implying that they dropped the ball on it.

[Melissia]

I believe Jervis addressed that issue t one point, stating that the codex was rushed to capitalize on the popularity(?) of their newly launched Inquisitor game system. When he was interviewed, he almost seemed to lament the project, implying that they dropped the ball on it.

Jervis Johnson also said, thankfully, that they are not going to embark on the trainwreck of an idea that is the amalgamated codex that someone vomits out every few weeks. He's responded to numerous emails stating that their plans right now are for a Sisters and Grey Knights codex, which focus on the actual armies. Whether or not the =][= is going to be removed (I personally hope they are), left as is, or expanded, was not hinted at.

[Just_Me]

Alternatively, they could flesh out Inquisitorial forces, and put strong emphasis on the elite nature of their resources, with inclusion of Interrogators, Primary throne agents, Stormtroopers, and even Rogue Traders. The big issue there, however, would be that it would like too much like a Dogs of War style army.

Yeah, but from all of the fluff I think that's how they should feel...

[Aegis]

Jervis Johnson also said, thankfully, that they are not going to embark on the trainwreck of an idea that is the amalgamated codex that someone vomits out every few weeks. He's responded to numerous emails stating that their plans right now are for a Sisters and Grey Knights codex, which focus on the actual armies. Whether or not the =][= is going to be removed (I personally hope they are), left as is, or expanded, was not hinted at.

And do not get me wrong, I would love to see both those forces getting thoroughly flushed out (while I do disagree on the subject of removing the Inquisition, but we must agree to disagree on that).

[Nabterayl]

Only because GW hasn't seen fit to expand the information we have regarding it. The reason that thread is going the direction it is is because we just don't know much about them in comparison to the Guard and Astartes. A half-assed amalgamated codex-- and with GW producing it, it's going to be half-assed, they ****ed up when they produced C:WH and that only mashed two separate forces into one codex, nevermind FOUR-- will solve nothing.
You know, Mel, I don't want an amalgamated Inquisition codex either (well, I do, but I think it would need to be a 200-page book and I don't trust GW to do it), but I disagree that the Chambers Militant constitute armies. The fluff has never suggested anything but that the only army the Imperium has is the Imperial Guard.

Space marines are called "armies" in fluff sometimes, and in the sense that they are largely self-maintained politically autonomous fighting forces that's true. But they aren't an army in the military sense. They don't have tanks, they have only the lightest artillery, they have practically zero ability to absorb casualties. If you want a fast response force or direct action specialists, space marines are great. But they can't sustain prolonged operations, and they can only engage in pitched battle or assault prepared positions up to a certain (very small) size. That's not an army. It's a commando battalion on steroids, and nothing in the fluff has ever suggested otherwise.

The sisters of battle are better off, but even then, even an Order Militant Majoris is more like a marine (I mean USMC or Royal Marines) regiment than an army. These just aren't full-spectrum enough forces to warrant the term "army."

[Melissia]

I don't necessarily mean remove them from the game entirely, I'm just stlil annoyed that they dumped that crap in my Sisters codex :P

[Aegis]

I don't necessarily mean remove them from the game entirely, I'm just stlil annoyed that they dumped that crap in my Sisters codex :P

Fair enough point. It seems like they threw them in there more as an after thought, than as a fully fleshed out idea. Perhaps you may have had a different opinion if they actually did the Inquisitorial element properly. However, it is nice to see we have some middle ground to meet on for this topic.

As far as Nabterayl's point, that is quite true, I think. We often just call the Astartes and Soritas armies of their own, but they seem to be far too specialized, with limited sustainability.

[Miggidy Mack]

Frankly Inquisition armies should just be guard armies with a twist. Inquisitor HQ with storm trooper troops. The big combine "Inquisitor and Sisters fighting for a planet" is really the makings of an apocalypse game. The Inquisition only hits the dirt in that kind of size when a planet is about to be lost.

GK's, Sisters and Deathwatch, however, are their own full armies. They should have put an Inquisitor in the guard codex. You can easily use a Primaris Psyker or Lord Commissar as your "counts as Inquisitor" though.

Then each of the factions can have it's own book. I'd love to see an "inquisitor" force, but it just isn't as feasible as the main groups. Don't hold your breath on Deathwatch though. I think that's going to be the purview of Fantasy Flight.

[Just_Me]

I don't necessarily mean remove them from the game entirely, I'm just stlil annoyed that they dumped that crap in my Sisters codex :P

Actually I tend to agree with you, I think that the WH Codex “feels” more like it was meant to be a SoB Codex, and then someone said at the last minute “ooh actually, let’s make this about the Odo Hereticus.” Out of all the Chambers Militant the Sororitas are the closest to being a functioning “army” of their own, probably because unlike the other two they aren’t actually part of the Inquisition, they are part of the Ministorum which happens to have close ties to the Hereticus because the two organizations goals coincide.


Frankly Inquisition armies should just be guard armies with a twist. Inquisitor HQ with storm trooper troops. The big combine "Inquisitor and Sisters fighting for a planet" is really the makings of an apocalypse game. The Inquisition only hits the dirt in that kind of size when a planet is about to be lost.

Here I really have to disagree, leaving aside the boringness factor the two organizations are entirely different. The Guard is, well, the Guard, they are the army. They conduct full scale wars, massive conventional battles. The Inquisition doesn’t have a modern counterpart, they are supra-legal investigative operatives with broad discretionary powers to employ lethal force, to which end they may choose to call on the regular military, or may use their own independent forces to persecute whatever action they see fit. It is in this second role that they are represented on the table top (the first is what the allies system attempts to achieve), and in this role they will conduct limited actions with very precise goals that they themselves set. When they are involved in Apocalypse level engagements it represents a threat so massive and undeniable that to withhold any available military resources would be foolish, and even then they will most likely have their own ulterior motives and objectives they are seeking to achieve (for the greater glory of the Imperium of course :D).


GK's, Sisters and Deathwatch, however, are their own full armies. They should have put an Inquisitor in the guard codex. You can easily use a Primaris Psyker or Lord Commissar as your "counts as Inquisitor" though.

Then each of the factions can have it's own book. I'd love to see an "inquisitor" force, but it just isn't as feasible as the main groups. Don't hold your breath on Deathwatch though. I think that's going to be the purview of Fantasy Flight.

I am truly puzzled by this sentiment that several people have already expressed. Leaving aside the fact that Grey Knight and Deathwatch lists would just be variant Space Marine lists, there is no indication in the fluff that these forces are at all independent.

While it is true that the Grey Knights have been known to take to the field as a body without an Inquisitor in direct command, as far as I can tell they never choose their own engagements, they are dispatched by the Ordo Malleus to achieve goals that the Odos select. In fact the Grey Knights organization itself is inextricably intertwined with that of the Ordo Malleus, they are based on Titan alongside the Ordo, and one of the Grandmasters sits on the Malleus senior council.

The Deathwatch is even less equipped to function independently, they are not even a permanent organization; they are drawn for a term of service (which it seems can in some cases be indefinite, but still technically not permanent) from among the most experienced veterans of many different Space Marine Chapters. They seem to fight exclusively as specialist infantry squads with no dedicated assault or heavy support elements, let alone armoured contingents.

In essence the Grey Knights and Deathwatch are very specialized “smart weapons” that the Inquisition points at things they don’t like and then stands back to watch the fireworks.


I feel like in that system nobody would use the inquisitor. How often do you see people using two HQ choices regularly? Not to mention I don't really like that Deathwing, Ravenwing, Wolfwing, system where you need an SC to pick the army you want but having regular HQ units with that option use that might be more viable. I think the Inquisitor would need something like what chaos lords used to have with cult marines: you could give the Inquisitor a "mark" or the Ordo Xenos, Mallues, Hereticus, etc. I don't think it should be as white and black as having almost three seperate lists that you have access to because of one unit, but penalties should definitely be in place, such as all GK units are 0-1 without an Inquisitor Mallues or GK Grand Master or you are allowed 0-2 of all GK units (GK Teleport Attack, GK Purgation, GK Dread...) without GK HQ. Also you need to decided whether a non order specific army would be viable, you know assassins, stormtroopers, etc. or whether each HQ HAD TO be of one order. If that was the case, non-order units should be gain some bonus or penalty when used.

Actually I like this idea better, put a hard cap on the Chamber Militant forces unless you take the associated HQ. Kind of similar to the system in the Space Marine Codex where taking a bike mounted Captain allows one to take Bikers as troops, or taking Marneus Calgar removes the 0-1 limit on Honor Guard (because as everyone knows, the Ultramarines are just better than everybody else). That way you can still have a Daemon Hunter with a single squad of Grey Knights backing him up, but if you want an all Grey Knights then they need their own command structure (which make perfect sense if you think about it).

[Nabterayl]

I am truly puzzled by this sentiment that several people have already expressed. Leaving aside the fact that Grey Knight and Deathwatch lists would just be variant Space Marine lists, there is no indication in the fluff that these forces are at all independent.

While it is true that the Grey Knights have been known to take to the field as a body without an Inquisitor in direct command, as far as I can tell they never choose their own engagements, they are dispatched by the Ordo Malleus to achieve goals that the Odos select. In fact the Grey Knights organization itself is inextricably intertwined with that of the Ordo Malleus, they are based on Titan alongside the Ordo, and one of the Grandmasters sits on the Malleus senior council.

The Deathwatch is even less equipped to function independently, they are not even a permanent organization; they are drawn for a term of service (which it seems can in some cases be indefinite, but still technically not permanent) from among the most experienced veterans of many different Space Marine Chapters. They seem to fight exclusively as specialist infantry squads with no dedicated assault or heavy support elements, let alone armoured contingents.

In essence the Grey Knights and Deathwatch are very specialized “smart weapons” that the Inquisition points at things they don’t like and then stands back to watch the fireworks.
I think you're spot on that the Deathwatch and Grey Knights are much more closely linked to their respective ordos than the Adepta Sororitas are to theirs. But for tabletop purposes the question is whether you will ever find Deathwatch or Grey Knight forces fighting without an inquisitor present at the battle, and the answer to that I think is clearly yes. From an army list perspective the question isn't why they're there, but who is there.

As for functioning independently, the Grey Knights at least are about as able to function independently as any other space marine chapter. They don't have Predators, Vindicators, Razorbacks, or Whirlwinds (which makes some amount of sense for an anti-daemon force) but they've got everything they need to get their job done.

The Deathwatch I admit we don't know much about, but we shouldn't assume that because their membership is non-permanent they can't operate on their own. After all, no modern army has permanent membership, and quite a few of them manage to get a hell of a lot done. And while we haven't seen positive proof that the Deathwatch has armored vehicles, devastator squads, and the like, we really don't know much about them other than that a) they sometimes utilize specially equipped all-marine assassination squads and b) they sometimes lead non-Deathwatch Ordo Xenos kill teams (what presumably would be the tabletop equivalent of OX storm troopers).