Crash and burn

[robpace]

My latest blog post details the trouble between Games Workshop and independent retailers, specifically in relation to the new Death from the Skies supplement. (http://onlyterriblethings.blogspot.com/2013/02/crash-and-burn.html)

[JMichael]

I do find it odd that GW has the gw.com only items. But really this is the only book thus far for 40k that is online only. Crusade of Fire was available to retail stores that order direct from GW (my local game store-non GW had CoF on the shelves on release day).

I think the post banning the supplement and it's rules is a big over reaction and if my store did this, I would stop shopping there!
No way would I sell my hard earned and loved 40k army for a mere discount on another game system.
Keep in mind that the Flyers in the book are still items (expensive items at that) that the stores can sell, and it may even boost those sales.
So the gamers come in with the $33 dollar flyer book and buy 1-2 new flyers. A store's profit is often 50% of the item, so you just made $20-$40/flyer sold. And didn't make the $15 from the book.

I think a much bigger threat are the various online stores that all offer 20-25% off GW items. You often don't have to pay sales tax either.
Imagine a player wants to build up a new army and spend $200-$400 dollars. Are they going to goto the local store and maybe get 10% off (+tax) or go online and save $40-$90 dollars (often with free shipping and no sales tax)?

[Mr Mystery]

Well well well!! Teddy is a long way from the pram today!

Non-essential compendium of mostly already released stuff is direct only, and some, well two it would seem, indies get out of their prams for a good old sulk!

Business advise? Hush your gums and promote fliers up the wazoo.

40k is popular for a reason you know!

[Defenestratus]

My latest blog post details the trouble between Games Workshop and independent retailers, specifically in relation to the new Death from the Skies supplement. (http://onlyterriblethings.blogspot.com/2013/02/crash-and-burn.html)

Well you certainly know how to bring the GW apologists out on this forum.

[Tynskel]

I find this hilarious.
I am a games seller, and I am gunna shoot myself in the foot by buying back product at less than retail value, then attempt to sell you new product...

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

My latest blog post details the trouble between Games Workshop and independent retailers, specifically in relation to the new Death from the Skies supplement. (http://onlyterriblethings.blogspot.com/2013/02/crash-and-burn.html)

As I understand it, the book updates pre-6th edition codices, so that their flyer rules match the current edition. Rather than have players try to track down old White Dwarf articles, GW conveniently supply a book detailing stuff these armies need. Instead of being a decent hobby supporter, you punish all those players who would have benefitted from it. Then ragequit. :rolleyes:

[Dyrnwyn]

I can understand his reaction. IIRC, in order to qualify for buying GW product from them at the reduced price that allows them to sell at MSRP and still profit, GW requires indies to stock a large selection of their models, and thus take up a very big chunk of space in the store. If GW is requiring this of store owners and then screwing them out of big releases by not just delaying sending new releases, but by not taking orders for them at all? That's not a recipe for a store owner wanting to continue devoting a huge chunk of his shelf space to your models.

Now he can't just decide he wants to liquidate his GW stock for pennies on the dollar, so he's basically trying to remove his market for GW games by heavily discounting Warmachine to those who get rid of their ability to play GW. Once the player base for GW has shrunk at his store, he has the excuse that he doesn't have a market for GW product, so he can stop stocking it, pull it from the shelves, and sell it on eBay. Meanwhile, he will have grown his local Warmachine market, so he hopefully hasn't actually lost customers. It's not perfect, but it's a halfway decent plan to get shed of GW.

GW's shooting itself in the foot again - indies make up the majority of their B&M locations in the US, so while most stores probably won't react this drastically, treating indies badly continually is going to backfire.

[Anggul]

As I understand it, the book updates pre-6th edition codices, so that their flyer rules match the current edition. Rather than have players try to track down old White Dwarf articles, GW conveniently supply a book detailing stuff these armies need. Instead of being a decent hobby supporter, you punish all those players who would have benefitted from it. Then ragequit. :rolleyes:

To be fair, the sensible and reasonable thing to do would be to just let us download a pdf of the White Dwarf units. That would be sensible and reasonable though, which GW don't tend to go for. Yes though, the guy is being daft.

[Mr Mystery]

Or you buy a couple of copies and have them available for store use, if your first concern is your clientele.

Or you know, offer a discount on the fliers for those who bought the book and bring it in. Keeps the direct order to just the book, and the rest coming through you.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

To be fair, the sensible and reasonable thing to do would be to just let us download a pdf of the White Dwarf units. That would be sensible and reasonable though, which GW don't tend to go for. Yes though, the guy is being daft.

True, they could. And I'm just as annoyed as most by the book - too expensive with a useless inclusion (the battle report). But talk about an over-reaction by the OP.

[Kirsten]

lol, banning people from using Death from the Skies is hilarious, way to act like a tit stockist, sorry I wouldn't be able to hear any further comment you make over the sound of my laughter.

[Defenestratus]

lol, banning people from using Death from the Skies is hilarious, way to act like a tit stockist, sorry I wouldn't be able to hear any further comment you make over the sound of my laughter.

I wonder how many people who are chiding this gentleman for his decision as to how to run his own business have experience as a small business owner themselves?

How about a small business owner whose supplier is as difficult to work with as GW is, and at the same time gets undercut by the same supplier.

[Mr Mystery]

Undercut? Not exactly the correct term.

And I don't need experience as a small business owner to spot when one is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Throwing teddy from the pram is not a clever option. Banning the use of a legitimate product hardly helps your business. Hoping those who haven't picked up an alternate system will do so, instead of just buying their toys elsewhere? Foolish.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Undercut? Not exactly the correct term.

And I don't need experience as a small business owner to spot when one is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Throwing teddy from the pram is not a clever option. Banning the use of a legitimate product hardly helps your business. Hoping those who haven't picked up an alternate system will do so, instead of just buying their toys elsewhere? Foolish.

And the store could have just had a copy of Death From the Skies for everyone to use instead.

[Kirsten]

Have you considered that maybe it is direct only because they just don't expect to sell that many? I am not a small business holder, though I am good friends with one and have discussed going into business with him. He has certainly had poor service from GW, utterly needlessly, they made things far more complicated than they needed to be. But banning the product? seriousy? grow up. They are not going to make any point, not going to prove anything, and I very much doubt they will get any sort of decent take up on these offers. It is a knee-jerk act of spite over a small book with very little new in.

[Dyrnwyn]

It's certainly likely both Black Diamond and Gnome Games will take a hit in sales, and likely lose some profit over this move. But consider a few points:

1) GW stores do not allow you to play with models that they do not sell, either B&M, direct, or through an indie. These indies are simply reacting in kind - not allowing you to a play with a supplement that they cannot sell.

2)They are not just banning the use of the book. They are offering active incentives for people who play GW games to switch to other systems - systems which the stores make better profit on. If this is successful enough, this is a stepping stone to stop carrying GW product entirely. Gnome Games may take a rather steep initial hit in profit depending on the amount of store credit offered to each person trading in a GW army, but Black diamond just asks for the rulebooks, and people are free to sell their own armies. If this move is successful, they will have converted a good chunk of their customers to buying product that makes them more money.

I can't say that this is a simple knee-jerk reaction. Perhaps in the case of Gnome Games, but Black Diamond looks to have devoted at least minimal thought to this. I suspect this has been brewing for some time - GW has been putting more restrictions on indies in the past couple years.

[Kawauso]

Eh, still seems really whiny to me.

If I frequented a store and they were that set in trying to decide for me which game system I played, I'd stop going to the store.

I would expect a GW store would not provide space for playing other games in it. But an independent retailer like that saying I can't use a supplement (or model, etc.) for a game system I play there - a game system they support - that's nonsense. I'd take my business elsewhere.

[Mr Mystery]

And a 'small' hit in profit can destroy many businesses.

It's one hell of a gamble to take over an extremely minor thing. There are better ways of dealing with it than spitting the dummy and risking your livelihood.

And remember, it's not just the loss of GW sales they're doing, but cutting into their profit margin on Warmachine.

But no doubt if these companies it will all be GW's fault, and nothing to do with some rather peculiar business sense.

[Lexington]

Well well well!! Teddy is a long way from the pram today!

Non-essential compendium of mostly already released stuff is direct only, and some, well two it would seem, indies get out of their prams for a good old sulk!

Business advise? Hush your gums and promote fliers up the wazoo.
:rolleyes:

On the fateful day when Tom Kirby finally snaps and starts gunning down passers-by on the street, I fully expect to find the BoLS forums filled with the usual suspects indignantly explaining how that great man was just seeing to it that these hooligans and ne'er-do-wells would never steal from some poor GW store.

[lattd]

My question is if your going to ban a book because it is direct order only and doesn't really have any new rules just updates, are you going to ban models that are direct order too? Its a stupid move why not do a flier sale instead?

[Kawauso]

My question is if your going to ban a book because it is direct order only and doesn't really have any new rules just updates, are you going to ban models that are direct order too? Its a stupid move why not do a flier sale instead?

You mean like making bundles similar to the ones on the GW site but with discounts?

Because that would...I dunno...make sense and do well? I've got nothing.

[Mr Mystery]

:rolleyes:

On the fateful day when Tom Kirby finally snaps and starts gunning down passers-by on the street, I fully expect to find the BoLS forums filled with the usual suspects indignantly explaining how that great man was just seeing to it that these hooligans and ne'er-do-wells would never steal from some poor GW store.

You know. I've reconsidered. I suddenly hate GW. How dare they like, be a business, and, and seek a profit. I think that sucks because you do! Yeah! Yeah! Revolution, revolution! Let's all write not particularly funny web cartoons! And use them to express our displeasure by accusing the GW board of kiddy diddling! And when they get angry about that, I can freak out about their reaction because what I did certainly wasn't libel at all! Yeah. Negative opinions are the only valid ones.

****.

[Learn2Eel]

I probably won't buy the book, and I can't see to many others I know buying it either. Still, there's nothing wrong with releasing it - a lot of people never got the chance to grab that White Dwarf with the flyer rules for Stormtalons or Ork Bommas, and yet other people may not have access and or know about the FAQs. It should do fine.

[dlust1]

as a 40k player the fact that I now have to shell out an additional $40 for rules for 2 models in my army that already had rules available for $11 in the form of a white dwarf, well that pleases me to no end. why not release the rules as a free pdf? or an $11 pdf? or keep the white dwarfs, which contain rules for models/army updates, available for order until the next addition of the codex is released. there are countless ways gamesworkshop could have made these rules available that would have been better then this release, and with the rumours new flyers coming in march, are we gonna have to shell out another $40 6 months later for those models as well? with the recent lawsuit over the use of the shess mahrinnes terminology in books sold on the web, it has become clear that games workshop has become a bunch of money grubbing rich men in offices who have lost contact with the gaming community and if they don't wise up will continue to loose market share to other games like warmachine/hordes, infinity, mercs, and others

[eldargal]

You know you don't have to buy it to use them right? Between the BRB and FAQs you have all the info you need to use the flyers.

[Mr Mystery]

What's with the shock at a PLC wanting to make money? Seriously, why so surprised?

It's a £20 book. If you have the white dwarf and the PDFs, rock on with those? Or have they managed to remote control immolate your copies?

And what makes the other manufacturers different? They're businesses as well, and thus out to make a profit as well, and no doubt enjoy a high mark up to boot. Or do PP tell you they give a kitten to a cripple with every purchase?

[eldargal]

It's a £20 book. If you have the white dwarf and the PDFs, rock on with those? Or have they managed to remote control immolate your copies?
Why engage your brain and use some common sense when you can moan and b!tch like a child.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

with the recent lawsuit over the use of the shess mahrinnes terminology in books sold on the web

What lawsuit?


, it has become clear that games workshop has become a bunch of money grubbing rich men in offices who have lost contact with the gaming community and if they don't wise up will continue to loose market share to other games like warmachine/hordes, infinity, mercs, and others

Lost contact with the gaming community, you mean like releasing a campaign book which quickly sold out? Or making another yearly profit? If you don't like what they've done with the book, don't assume the company is making poor business decisions. PP and others are hardly paragons in the gaming/business field.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Why engage your brain and use some common sense when you can moan and b!tch like a child.

Sounds like almost the entire dakka dakka community right now.

[Mr Mystery]

Well indeed!

I'll be picking it up as due to tiny flag being tiny, I binned my WD back issues, and having all the updates in one place, especially for my Necron fliers (well, okay. Two, including the codex) appeals to me. Bit miffed at effectively paying twice for the Crusade of Fire stuff, but hey ho, worse things have happened!

[Houghten]

If you have the white dwarf and the PDFs, rock on with those? Or have they managed to remote control immolate your copies?

In a sense. The PDFs now simply say "refer to Death in the Skies, plzkthx"

[Mr Mystery]

Even the saved copies on people's computers?

[Houghten]

And how the hell am I going to know if my outdated FAQ matches what it says in the book?

[Mr Mystery]

Well you don't.

It's almost as if the paltry £20 represents quite a good investment. If money is tight, pool money with friends to procure it!

[Caitsidhe]

Or don't and don't worry about it. I don't see any reason anyone should have to pay an additional TAX over everyone else to play the game up to date. That is what this amounts to. Go to the online Faq and see if what you need is there. If it isn't, keep using the book you already paid for.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is perfectly fair and reasonable.

Rules are a framework. You can do what you want!

[Defenestratus]

Undercut is the perfect term.

Undercut is when you offer a product or service at a lower price than another party.

In this case, GW is undercutting the LGS by not even offering the product for sale. Thats supply side undercutting.

Also how ridiculous is it for a LGS owner to be able to sell a customer a model -- but then tells them that they have to go buy the rules for it online?

Thats so dumb.

[Mr Mystery]

Not really. Many companies offer online only deals and products.

And again, easy fix is for the Indie to buy a copy or two for store use. Is it ideal? Nope. Is it a better choice than throwing a wobbler and risking your business? I think so.

[Defenestratus]

Not really. Many companies offer online only deals and products.

And again, easy fix is for the Indie to buy a copy or two for store use. Is it ideal? Nope. Is it a better choice than throwing a wobbler and risking your business? I think so.

Yes but do those "online only deals and products" get used back at the independent retailer's location?

The unique situation here is what makes this whole thing a bit sour in the mouths of the LGS owners.

The LGS provides a gaming area, at great expense, because they either have proof, or they believe that it leads to increased revenue from purchases. If people are coming to use their gaming areas with products that they either didn't sell themselves, or cannot sell due to a ridiculous "direct only" policy, then the marginal benefit of that gaming area is reduced.

I've been a regular customer of 3 LGS' who have had to close their doors now because of being unable to compete with the internet. It starts the same for all of them -

The first telltale sign is that the GW stock on the shelves shrinks. The next sign is that the "new releases" aren't arriving at the store. Then the last is the GW community that has all but evaporated and the other game systems take over.

As a business, GW is free to do whatever the hell it likes with its product and how it chooses to distribute and market it. However lets not all assume that its the best method for all involved in the supply chain.

[Mr Mystery]

And none of those have closed through any fault of the owners? All at GW's door?

Running a business is bloody hard work. Yet the two from the OP seem to be willing to risk their business failing, when there are other options. For instance, my previous suggestion of offering a discount of some kind on fliers, thus in theory ensuring it's just the book that's being bought direct. It encourages loyalty in your customers. But ragging on someone's chosen system, and trying to get people to play a new one by cutting your profit margin? I fail to see how this achieves anything.

[Caitsidhe]

And none of those have closed through any fault of the owners? All at GW's door?

Running a business is bloody hard work. Yet the two from the OP seem to be willing to risk their business failing, when there are other options. For instance, my previous suggestion of offering a discount of some kind on fliers, thus in theory ensuring it's just the book that's being bought direct. It encourages loyalty in your customers. But ragging on someone's chosen system, and trying to get people to play a new one by cutting your profit margin? I fail to see how this achieves anything.

I don't know that they are risking much of anything, which is why they are doing it. They have probably calculated how much they make on Warhammer products versus the work and shelf space involved. Whatever rage may manifest in their posts, I expect the chief reason is they feel they will make more money supporting/boosting a different game. This may be another cultural difference, but game stores in the United States, particularly the successful long lived ones, are extremely diverse. Dragon's Lair in my area is one such store, or should I say STORES as they have multiple locations. Warhammer products have a section but it is by no means any larger than anything else. Over the years I've seen gaming sections of different games expand or shrink based entirely on the sales. The store continues to SUPPORT the gamers regardless (which is the opposite of what you do over there) but the product carried is kept in direct relation to sales.

Personally I could care less about this new book being direct from Games Workshop. It looks like a bad joke to me. I've already been appraised of everything in it of game implication and it is my personal opinion that they have reached a new low in selling empty calories. Local stores should be GLAD this thing isn't on their shelves. It would be a loss. That is neither here nor there. Buy your stuff on Ebay or any o the countless other indirect methods. Or get your stuff via prize support. That is what I do.

[Defenestratus]

And none of those have closed through any fault of the owners? All at GW's door?

Running a business is bloody hard work. Yet the two from the OP seem to be willing to risk their business failing, when there are other options. For instance, my previous suggestion of offering a discount of some kind on fliers, thus in theory ensuring it's just the book that's being bought direct. It encourages loyalty in your customers. But ragging on someone's chosen system, and trying to get people to play a new one by cutting your profit margin? I fail to see how this achieves anything.

All of them have complained about the ability to work with GW on their inventory levels.

All of them made their rent selling magic cards. One of them closed because, for all we could tell, the owner went hermit on everyone. He closed up and nobody has heard from him again. The last one has reorganized into a gaming club type model that has no real retail presence anymore and sells merch through an online store/ebay. You buy a membership card to get a significant discount. The store is located in an industrial area now.

And as for the mentality of the OP - he's trying to convert his customers off of GW systems because he's sick of supporting it. He might be threatening his business but in the long run, it might be better overall.

[nearsighted_farseer]

You know. I've reconsidered. I suddenly hate GW. How dare they like, be a business, and, and seek a profit. I think that sucks because you do! Yeah! Yeah! Revolution, revolution! Let's all write not particularly funny web cartoons! And use them to express our displeasure by accusing the GW board of kiddy diddling! And when they get angry about that, I can freak out about their reaction because what I did certainly wasn't libel at all! Yeah. Negative opinions are the only valid ones.

****.
You know. I still don't care. I still don't care that anyone loves or hates GW, especially someone I have never met and never will. I think that you suck because you feel like anyone would care about your moronic opinion. I don't know what "web cartoons" you're talking about, and don't wish to. Bringing up something like "kiddy diddling" in a discussion about toy soldiers is beyond absurd--its the hallmark of a person who gets absolutely enraged by the views and opinions of other people. Perhaps you should consider medication.

Negative opinions are not the only valid ones, and neither are positive ones. But negative opinions about negative opinions? They're part of a downward spiral into idiocy.

[archimbald]

And as for the mentality of the OP - he's trying to convert his customers off of GW systems because he's sick of supporting it. He might be threatening his business but in the long run, it might be better overall.

Out of interest and I'm not saying this will happen, but what if more stores were to do this, say 10-15 % of the independent wargaming stores that stock GW?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

This is a ridiculous response. You can't sell one damn book? OMG! PLAY WARMAHOARDZ!

[Lexington]

You know. I've reconsidered. I suddenly hate GW. How dare they like, be a business, and, and seek a profit. I think that sucks because you do! Yeah! Yeah! Revolution, revolution! Let's all write not particularly funny web cartoons!
It's always nice to be remembered, even by small people. ;)


I don't know that they are risking much of anything, which is why they are doing it. They have probably calculated how much they make on Warhammer products versus the work and shelf space involved. Whatever rage may manifest in their posts, I expect the chief reason is they feel they will make more money supporting/boosting a different game.
True enough, and let's not forget that GW's an unadulterated pain to work with on the retail side of things. They force retailers to carry every aspect of their product line, offer a lower discount than most anyone else in the industry, and famously use independent retailers as stalking horses for testing markets in which to open their own storefronts. Game store owners are rarely running the most profitable businesses, and do so without much in the way of outside support. Converting people to different games is often very much in their interest, and GW's just giving them more reasons to do it.

[Mr Mystery]

You know. I still don't care. I still don't care that anyone loves or hates GW, especially someone I have never met and never will. I think that you suck because you feel like anyone would care about your moronic opinion. I don't know what "web cartoons" you're talking about, and don't wish to. Bringing up something like "kiddy diddling" in a discussion about toy soldiers is beyond absurd--its the hallmark of a person who gets absolutely enraged by the views and opinions of other people. Perhaps you should consider medication.

Negative opinions are not the only valid ones, and neither are positive ones. But negative opinions about negative opinions? They're part of a downward spiral into idiocy.

The kiddy diddling comment? Yeah Lexington went ahead and did that, then expressed surprised when GW's reaction was somewhat negative.

You'll also note that the post I responded to added nowt to the topic, other than a mindless attack onto opinions. But hey, apparently I'm just a 'small person' so what would I know?

[eldargal]

. They force retailers to carry every aspect of their product line,
Wait, so they force retailers to carry all aspects of their product line AND don't allow them to carry certain aspects of their product lie (direct only, like Death from the Skies) at the same time? Those *******s.:rolleyes:

[Gir]

True enough, and let's not forget that GW's an unadulterated pain to work with on the retail side of things. They force retailers to carry every aspect of their product line, offer a lower discount than most anyone else in the industry, and famously use independent retailers as stalking horses for testing markets in which to open their own storefronts. Game store owners are rarely running the most profitable businesses, and do so without much in the way of outside support. Converting people to different games is often very much in their interest, and GW's just giving them more reasons to do it.

According to my good friend, who runs a FLAGS, GW is one of the best companies to work with, with the best profit margins of any line he carries.



Wait, so they force retailers to carry all aspects of their product line AND don't allow them to carry certain aspects of their product lie (direct only, like Death from the Skies) at the same time? Those *******s.:rolleyes:

GW have a tier system, the higher the tier you are, the more you have to carry, but the more product support (demo models and paints, scenery, paint and models for store use, etc) you get.

[dlust1]

Sorry it may not be in lawsuit form yet, just a trademark claim, but if your interested I found out about it here first http://www.beastsofwar.com/the-weekender/weekender-entitled-space-marine/ and have read more in other forums.

And yes I do think they have lost contact with gamers. how am I supposed to feel about a book that has only a single models rules for my army, and the rest of the book not applying to my army at all

And then having to order this online only. not being able to go to my local store to conveniently grab a copy.

Having this be the only way to get rules for my flyer.

And being asked to pay $40 for it?

I love gamesworkshops 40k game and have invested thousands of dollars in it, and will still shell out more, but gamesworkshop dropped the ball with this release......BIG TIME.

[eldargal]

And yes I do think they have lost contact with gamers. how am I supposed to feel about a book that has only a single models rules for my army, and the rest of the book not applying to my army at all
Conveniently enough it is a book you don't have to buy at all.

As to dropping the ball, no. They are releasing a compendium of flyer rules and the dogfighting rules from Crusade of Fire for those that did not buy Crusade of Fire. It is a compendium, not an expansion or a supplement. No one needs to own it.

[Houghten]

Yeah, I can just... stop using my bomma instead.

[Gir]

Yeah, I can just... stop using my bomma instead.

If you could use it before the book, you can use it after it.

[Houghten]

Except I don't know what the current rules are any more.

[Jacob29]

Conveniently enough it is a book you don't have to buy at all.

As to dropping the ball, no. They are releasing a compendium of flyer rules and the dogfighting rules from Crusade of Fire for those that did not buy Crusade of Fire. It is a compendium, not an expansion or a supplement. No one needs to own it.

How does my friend use his Ork flyers? We no longer know what the rules are..

We didn't even have the White Dwarf.

What if he wants to play at GW? He whips out his Dakka-jet and his opponent asks what it does, heck he doesnt even know anymore. He can show him his £20 Codex: Orks that he bought thinking it had all the rules in it but alas it does not he now needs to double his rule price just to buy the information for 1 model he owns if he wishes to ever play it again.

This book is silly, granted its a slight overreaction from OP, but I feel something drastic like this needs to happen. What else could they have done to show GW that this isn't on?

[miteyheroes]

How does my friend use his Ork flyers? We no longer know what the rules are..

We didn't even have the White Dwarf.

If you don't have the White Dwarf, surely you never knew what the rules are?

[Jacob29]

There are... other ways.

But that other way probably won't hold up in GW. Besides if we have to rely upon this other method of getting the information then we might as well use the same method on the models.

[Gir]

Except I don't know what the current rules are any more.

I'll tell you a secret: They haven't changed.

[Kawauso]

There are... other ways.

But that other way probably won't hold up in GW. Besides if we have to rely upon this other method of getting the information then we might as well use the same method on the models.

So, what, piracy was fine for the WD supplement but it's not fine this time?

Seriously, I'm not sure what your issue is in this context. Even if the rules for the Ork fliers had changed.

[eldargal]

There are... other ways.

But that other way probably won't hold up in GW. Besides if we have to rely upon this other method of getting the information then we might as well use the same method on the models.
...The word I want to use to describe you will probably get me in trouble from the mods. But seriously, you pirated the WD rules (which you wouldn't be able to use in a GW store anyway) and now you are whining because they release a book you don't have to buy because GW would frown on you using a pirated copy in a store too?

And I thought the person on Warseer who said 'this is thesort of content that should be in WD!' (hint: much of it was) was stupid.

[Jacob29]

...The word I want to use to describe you will probably get me in trouble from the mods. But seriously, you pirated the WD rules (which you wouldn't be able to use in a GW store anyway) and now you are whining because they release a book you don't have to buy because GW would frown on you using a pirated copy in a store too?

And I thought the person on Warseer who said 'this is thesort of content that should be in WD!' (hint: much of it was) was stupid.

We bought all of the recent White Dwarves but we missed that specific one.

Also its almost like you ignored HALF OF MY POST. How do we not HAVE to buy this? If we ever want to play in GW and use models we ALREADY OWN we HAVE TO BUY THIS.

[eldargal]

If you have the WD rules and the BRB you can play them. The FAQ pdfs may be useful too. The fact is if you can't use the flyers with this book then you couldn't use them at all in 6th, which is patently untrue.

The fact is this book changes little. Before you needed the WD, BRB and FAQs to use the flyers. Now you just need this book. If you don't want to pay for it fine, you can still do it the old way.

I'm not even sure I'm going to buy it myself, it depends what the rest of the changes are like.

[Jacob29]

So what do we say when we go into GW with Dakka-jets?


We cant whip out the PDF of the WD, or at least id assume they wouldn't want us too.

[eldargal]

Well I guess you should have bought the White Dwarf. You know, the legal and moral thing to do. I think you can buy the rules in their Apple store (Android is coming at some point) too.

[Herzlos]

Well I guess you should have bought the White Dwarf. You know, the legal and moral thing to do. I think you can buy the rules in their Apple store (Android is coming at some point) too.

Yeah, all they need to do is go back in time to get a new one, or try and find a used one. It's not as if White Dwarf even does back orders anymore.

Anyone who's just bought into the armies affected have 2 choices: Buy a magazine issue that may pre-date their involvement in the hobby or buy an expensive direct only book. In addition to their Codex, rules, and set of errata.

[eldargal]

So what you are saying is that instead of buying the rules in WD, they might have to buy the rules in a compendium released for that purpose. What a tragedy.

If you bought the rules, you don't need to buy them again. If you didn't, then you need to. Yes it costs more but you get a bunch of other rules and such with it. Not to mention that you can buy the rules for a few pounds in the Apple store, which I admit will be more acceptable when they offer an Android version.

[Jacob29]

*shudder* Apple.

I understand why they've released the book to make these rules available.

Also didn't they CHANGE the rules? I heard the Talon dropped in points and the Missiles also dropped in points, if that is true then even owning the White Dwarf edition would be useless.

Not to mention the barrier this is putting on newbie wargamers. Do you expect them to buy the expensive rulebook + codex AND supplement just so they can use a model they bought?

I really like how Dakka-Jets look what if you bought the codex and a Jet but then it turns out that, "oops they arent in there you need this OTHER book".

Just seems a little silly. Rules are pretty damn important to this game, charging for codex's is already kinda meh seeing how expensive the models are, but now having to buy even more books just to use your models seems ridiculous.

If it was an "expansion" and Flyers could only be used via a mission set out within this book then fair enough, charge money. But these units are core parts of some armies.

If they suddenly changed Ork Nob squad and the Warboss and released a mini-book would you deem that as fair? £10 to get new rules for only a Nob squad and Warboss to fit into your current codex?

No it's an FAQ or Errata and they should be put in the FAQs and Erratas.

[eldargal]

There are rumours that there are point cost reductions (and AV reductions for the vendetta/valkyrie) but no kind of confirmation yet and most people seem to doubt it. If it is the case then certainly the issue of whether GW should be offering pdf updates changes.


Just seems a little silly. Rules are pretty damn important to this game, charging for codex's is already kinda meh seeing how expensive the models are, but now having to buy even more books just to use your models seems ridiculous.
Ah, so we are backto the 'I don't like paying for things' logic of why GW selling something is bad.


No it's an FAQ or Errata and they should be put in the FAQs and Erratas.
Show me another Faq/Errata that had rules for units from many different codices, rules for a new type of combat, new options for each race (in this case ace pilots) and a background campaign and model showcase and I'll concede it is just a FAQ/Errata.

[Learn2Eel]

Well the Stormtalon has been dropped in points base, whilst some of its weapon upgrades have changed in cost. We may very well see actual points/armour adjustments to the flyers. It would be well worth it just for the amount of egg that would have to be served up on people's faces :p

[eldargal]

The stormtalon points decrease has been confirmed?

[Jacob29]

There are rumours that there are point cost reductions (and AV reductions for the vendetta/valkyrie) but no kind of confirmation yet and most people seem to doubt it. If it is the case then certainly the issue of whether GW should be offering pdf updates changes.

Apparently peoples Digital Copy of C:SM updated and the Stormtalon was reduced in points. Again this isnt hard evidence, but several users agreed.



Ah, so we are backto the 'I don't like paying for things' logic of why GW selling something is bad.

But that isn't the case. Nobody "likes paying for things" or at least I don't assume so. However the truth is more of a "I dont mind paying for things". I clearly DO pay for things otherwise I wouldnt have both Eldar and Guard codex and a reasonable sized force for both.

The problem is that they are changing core rules that can affect the game, then selling it. If the point cost changes are true for the Stormraven then its AMENDING something from Codex:GK which should be FREE. You don't see them releasing a "Dark Angels: Spelling checked stickers" for the codex that you rip off and stick over the top.



Show me another Faq/Errata that had rules for units from many different codices, rules for a new type of combat, new options for each race (in this case ace pilots) and a background campaign and model showcase and I'll concede it is just a FAQ/Errata.

While not exactly the same, nor even for each race.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=15100016a

The Night Spinner is a new unit that can be used, and there are the rules. For free. On their website. For a new unit.

The question is why didnt they do that with the new flyers?

[eldargal]

Actually if they are updating digital codices with these changes then they really ought to release pdfs as well, it changes the debate entirely. If you paid for the digital codex you are getting the update but if you paid for the print update you are not.

I'm happy to pay for things that I feel are worth it, that is how our economy is structured after all.

The nightspinner is one unit. Death from the Skies has the rules for many units, a model showcase, a campaign narrative, dogfighting rules and ace pilot rules.

[Jacob29]

Yes I can see why they have made a book and if people are buying it for the showcase, dog fights and narrative.

It might be a nice book for that.

But my problem with it is the apparent changes to the core games rules.

I can't vouch for the people saying it's changed as I dont have the iBooks so again it might be wrong.

They could have easily charged for this book as well as releasing the rule changes, such as the point deductions into the FAQs and still sold a nice narrative, flyer based addon with the dogfighting rules.




Thats really my only problem with it, the changes to the core game which aren't accessible without it.

[eldargal]

Up until recently we were told quite firmly that nothing had changed in terms of core rules, points values and the like beyond what had already been FAQed and the book was just bringing it altogether in the standard format. Which is fine. But if there are changes to the core rules involving rules people have already paid for and that some people are getting it for free (ebook owners) then that is a concern.

[Learn2Eel]

Agreed.

[Jacob29]

What seems for sure is that there are new missiles for C:SM Stormravens.

So without the book we have no idea what they are :s


mindstrike missiles, bloodstrike missiles and stormstrike missiles

I dont have a BA or GK codex to hand, but im pretty certain they dont have Stormstrike.