Why does Games Workshop hate blood angels?

[Sanguineone]

Ok, so not only have we seen the changes to Furious Charge that stole the thunder of most BA lists but now the Angels (and Knights) have suffered the indignity Calgar and his boys borrowing their ride without asking.
This perhaps I could have taken on its own..............however I've just discovered that the FAQ's have been updated................
Apparently the Stormraven no longer uses 'skies of blood' the name having been replaced by the more universal 'skies of fury' and also there is a note to remove Deep Strike from the list of its special rules.
I'm starting to think that these official updates to codex are the worst idea since Greedo shooting first.
This trend has seen a lot of my friends moving on to other gaming systems........and I must admit I'm very tempted myself.......

[Defenestratus]

Ok, so not only have we seen the changes to Furious Charge that stole the thunder of most BA lists but now the Angels (and Knights) have suffered the indignity Calgar and his boys borrowing their ride without asking.
This perhaps I could have taken on its own..............however I've just discovered that the FAQ's have been updated................
Apparently the Stormraven no longer uses 'skies of blood' the name having been replaced by the more universal 'skies of fury' and also there is a note to remove Deep Strike from the list of its special rules.
I'm starting to think that these official updates to codex are the worst idea since Greedo shooting first.
This trend has seen a lot of my friends moving on to other gaming systems........and I must admit I'm very tempted myself.......

I certainly haven't felt the draw to my blood angels since 6th edition came out. I'm considering liquidating all my models for BA and starting some genero-space marine force like Imp Fists or something.

Blood Angels just don't tickle my fancy in 6th anymore.

FWIW - they apparently hate Space Wolves too. Letting all the marine chapters partake of the Stormraven but the wolves just seems a bit wrong.

[spaceman91]

I thought it was just me that gone off BA a bit. It's a shame i like them. Ps the wolves don't need flying tanks, they are just ( insert cockney accent ) hard like that.

[The Sovereign]

I play Wolves and Blood Angels; how d'ya think I feel?!

But on a serious note, I don't think BA have it so bad, we still have flying + fast everything else, and it's all pretty good in assault. I wish BA got Stormtalons, though.

Wolves got it a little worse, as we still don't have fliers or flak, which is gross. I broke down and got a Storm Eagle for them, but I wish we had more options like the other marine codices.

[Defenestratus]

I thought it was just me that gone off BA a bit. It's a shame i like them. Ps the wolves don't need flying tanks, they are just ( insert cockney accent ) hard like that.

Well I feel bad for Wolves because outside of the ADL they don't have much in the way of anti-air.

Except throwing hammers. Which I swear if that happened - would be stolen right of a Michael Bay movie script.

[spaceman91]

I play Wolves and Blood Angels; how d'ya think I feel?!

But on a serious note, I don't think BA have it so bad, we still have flying + fast everything else, and it's all pretty good in assault. I wish BA got Stormtalons, though.

Wolves got it a little worse, as we still don't have fliers or flak, which is gross. I broke down and got a Storm Eagle for them, but I wish we had more options like the other marine codices.

i dont feel we puppy players need them. I have never had a problem against flyers. I have two units of 6 longfangs, that normaly does the trick.

[Kawauso]

I know how you feel.

I have a BA army that's entirely airborne - all jumpers, speeders and flyers (well, ok, 2 scout squads and 2 dreads, but they infiltrate/hitch a ride on Stormravens). The thing that bugs me the most is not being able to put more than half of the army in reserve any more. I know all all-jumper army like that isn't the most competitive thing ever but it's what drew me to the BA codex in the first place - it's just so damn cool! Sadly 6th doesn't seem to want to make playing it all that effective.

I also have a SW army and it would be nice to have some more flyer options for them - I know the Wolves don't like flying but they -do- use things like jump packs, speeders, Thunderhawks, etc. I'll just have to get my hands on a Storm Eagle whenever I get around to acquiring more models for that army.

[gresha]

I play wolves and eldar. I was so hoping to be able to play a flyer....

[Mr.Pickelz]

Arjac, surfer style, rides the drop pod down and smacks the flyer before hoping off right as the drop pod hits the ground... And while it would be funny for SW's to get a Stormraven, they really don't need flying puppy carriers... Although it would be funny to see a unit of Thunderwolf Cav, or just a big unit of wolves, hop out of one. With Bjorn being towed in the back of course... ;)

[spaceman91]

I play wolves and eldar. I was so hoping to be able to play a flyer....

you poor person.

[Defenestratus]

I play wolves and eldar. I was so hoping to be able to play a flyer....

Just go get a nightwing or even better, a phoenix for your Eldar then have a lot of fun.

[YorkNecromancer]

6th ed added as much as it took - it added to the Elite choices, and took away from the basics. Sanguinary Guard got much harder, now that 2+ armour save is significantly more powerful. More significantly, controllable Death Company are SO much better. On top of the fact you can make them go where you want, they now get an insane number of attacks if you give them jump packs: 1 (hammer of wrath) +2 (base) +1 (2CCW) +2 (Rage) for six each; a squad of three gets 18 attacks instead of the twelve they used to. All of which can be power weapon attacks if you want to make the ultimate point sink.

[The Sovereign]

Well, I just got the LE Space Hulk termies (which have too much BA bling to convert to other chapters), so I'm stuck with BA anyway. :rolleyes: It's not so bad, I really like the Sanguinary Guard models.


I know the Wolves don't like flying

Hm, the fluff doesn't support this, unless you meant they don't like teleporting (due to it being a Warp technology). Plenty of SW fighter aces and pilots in the BL books and such.

[spaceman91]

Hm, the fluff doesn't support this, unless you meant they don't like teleporting (due to it being a Warp technology). Plenty of SW fighter aces and pilots in the BL books and such.

where? Im not calling you out i just love the sound of SW fighter pilots.

[Sanguineone]

I must admit that I like the way DC work in 6th, however I think I would trade that in for the higher initiative of 5th's Furious Charge.
However it looks like lately all they have done to the angels is take away and make them more vanilla. Case point the stormraven. Now not only do vanilla get to use it but they also get the storm talon........ With any luck it will be included in the new book. As it stands though the statement in the codex 'the blood angels are unwilling to relinquish control of the skies' seems a little hollow....... Perhaps they took a day off.
In regards to an earlier comment about not being able to use DOA armies anymore. I noticed the other day that the BRB FAQ mentions that you don't count occupants of a vehicle that must start in reserve for the 50% rule. I've heard it argued that this must be a dedicated transport in order for this to work. However one of the examples in the FAQ isn't a dedicated transport, so hopefully that will help with the lists.
Still in my opinion if they are going to give away the SR there should be a replacement or some awesome BA only rules (still waiting for my new flyers book, fingers crossed). Maybe in another (shudder) 'official update'.
The wolves don't need a flyer, they are hard as nails anyway. If you want to give them something then give them back the Leman Russ!
I envision 7th ed BRB to allow you to take anything you want but with a hefty £100 price tag. That's almost as much as what I paid for my 3 storm ravens for my Angels pre price rise! Thanks GW :-)

[The Sovereign]

But aren't the Bloodstrike Missiles still unique to the BA Stormraven (possibly a small consolation)? I admit that when I picked up the codex it didn't feel super distinct from the vanilla codex. But I wouldn't mind getting more of the vanilla toys though (Thunderfire Canon!).


where? Im not calling you out i just love the sound of SW fighter pilots.

There was a prominent wolf scout pilot named Haakon in The Battle of the Fang; he was pretty cool. There were others mentioned in passing in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons; great books to read if you're a Wolves fan (even if you're not big on the Horus Heresy, like me). I'm sure there are some mentioned in the Ragnar books as well, in fact I vaguely remember some (haven't read many of the books, though).

[Nabterayl]

Now not only do vanilla get to use it but they also get the storm talon........ With any luck it will be included in the new book. As it stands though the statement in the codex 'the blood angels are unwilling to relinquish control of the skies' seems a little hollow.......
I hear what you're saying as a collector/player, but from a lore standpoint this makes no sense. The BA codex was always very clear that except for the Death Company, the Blood Angels are a codex chapter. They're aerial by doctrine, not organization. Even if the Raven Guard have Stormravens, that doesn't mean a shadow captain would feel the need to use them to achieve air superiority. Few marine chapters seem to believe that air superiority is particularly important. The Blood Angels disagree.

Their forge output supports this. Have you seem how many Stormravens they maintain? The fact that other chapters have been retconned to have Stormravens doesn't mean they have dozens and dozens of them like the Blood Angels.


In regards to an earlier comment about not being able to use DOA armies anymore. I noticed the other day that the BRB FAQ mentions that you don't count occupants of a vehicle that must start in reserve for the 50% rule. I've heard it argued that this must be a dedicated transport in order for this to work. However one of the examples in the FAQ isn't a dedicated transport, so hopefully that will help with the lists.
You're absolutely right about that. Anything you put into a flyer - notwithstanding the fact that you did so voluntarily - doesn't count for reserve limit purposes. Whoever was arguing DTs only needs to go back to rules law school.

[Sanguineone]

Sure blood angels follow most of the codex rules with more variants than at first it seems though. Sanguinary guard, death company, sanguinary priests, baal preds, and also they follow their own way of denoting squad markings and specialist types ( yellow, blue, and gold helmets).
Also it says in the dex only they and the knights use them.
However I do like what you said about other commanders not using them as much. Maybe they should have limited other chapters to one like they did when everyone stole the Templars Crusaders?
It just seems like this has been done to sell more models. I thought the allies detachment would have worked fine in that respect for them. I myself have since bought ultramarine s, Eldar, Necrons, sisters of battle, and dark angels all to go with my blood angels and to have access to the nice bits from the respective dex. Seems I shouldn't have bothered though.
I would love a thunder fire cannon, the model is sweet. But I somehow think it won't be given to other chapters................unless there is another 'supplement' due out.
Also can't think of any ace wolves, a couple thunderhawk pilots, and the guy from battle that was an ace starship flyer ( he was a different breed of wolf from all accounts and quite bad *** if I don't say so).
Perhaps they should just do one codex that covers all marines and then throw in a few characters that let you take different squads a troops etc then again that would be a missed opportunity like codex chaos space marines. Legions would have been so much better.
I would also have the 13th return to the fang......

[Nabterayl]

Sanguinary Guard are just the chapter honor guard; everybody has one of those. Similarly with sanguinary priests - the details of BA geneseed mean they have to operate in a slightly different way than most, but they still staff the apothecarion and do all the things apothecaries do (serving as the chapter's doctors and biochemists, for instance). Baal Preds aren't in the codex, but then, neither are Predator Annihilators or the various Land Raider variants.

So yes, Blood Angels have some unique toys, but from a lore perspective I don't think they're marked out by having more unique or deviant toys than other chapters.

[Sanguineone]

Infernus pistols, hand flamers....... where do they get their landraiders from anyway?!?
Hopefully the heresy books will expand on their techno nomad background a little more.
Sanguinary guard are different from the honour guard which they also have and could number anything from 25 - 25x5 depending on if a guard is 5 men or one. Also the priests are priests too in addition to chaplains as they have the cult of sanguinius (happy sanguinius day! 3rd ed).
Forgeworld hate the blood angels too.......... Unless they change the sm flyer rules they had and let the BA take it. Lol Although Amit does have a few in flesh if cretia.
I think they should have kept the diversity they created with the fluff, I mean are Iron Hands really a codex chapter? Are the Ultramarines for that matter? Ventris
Used to be a time when you could tell which chapters were codex by if they had their own. Times have changed I guess.
Excuse me while my brain goes 40k overload.
Too many retcons :-/

[Mr Mystery]

So despite all your toys (Baal Predators, Blood Talon Dreadnoughts, death company, sanguinary guard, fast predators, deep strike land raiders) GW hate you?

Really? Really really! Really really really?

Furious Charge isn't a BA specific rule, and the +1 initiative is hardly the best part....

Tell you what, why not play Tau? Or Nids? Or perhaps Eldar? You may learn a smattering of perception..

[plawolf]

If they are going to give the ultrasmurfs and Templars the stormraven, at least they could have given BA the stormtalon just to make it fair. It's stupid that right now, the only marine chapter who gives a damn about air superiority has half as much options for fielding fighters as everyone else.

GK also got shafted a little when everyone else bar the pups got the BA, GK exclusive raven, but at least with GK, there was a reason why they shouldn't get the talon as psyker pilot and psybolt ammo might have been a bit much for the talon. But there is no such reason for only taking from BA and only flipping them the bird in return. What next? Baal preds renamed to Fury Pred and given to everyone?

[Tynskel]

I am excited about this change.
I like allies, and I like me my Captain Sicarius and Sanguinor. super marines all the way!

Now I can put Sicarius with an iron clad and super tactical squad in a storm raven. Then have an assault squad with a mini-captain, and death company!

[Defenestratus]

So despite all your toys (Baal Predators, Blood Talon Dreadnoughts, death company, sanguinary guard, fast predators, deep strike land raiders) GW hate you?

Really? Really really! Really really really?

Furious Charge isn't a BA specific rule, and the +1 initiative is hardly the best part....

Tell you what, why not play Tau? Or Nids? Or perhaps Eldar? You may learn a smattering of perception..

First all, the +1 I really WAS the difference. I would honestly take that before the +1 S because it allowed you to mitigate the amount of damage you take. This would allow you to assault punchier assault units in the game and not worry about getting that much punch back. Furthermore, with 4+ FNP you really didn't need to worry about assaulting units like berserkers or other MEQ's with your assault marines.

Baal Predators aren't all *that* great. The flamestorm variants are unusable since they usually get glanced to death before they get in range but the dakka pred is rather nice. Blood talons are swell, except they're AP3 and on something that only takes three glances to kill. Not as great as they used to be by any means. Deep striking land raiders are gimmicky and risky. Not saying those "toys" aren't worth anything but I wouldn't consider them anything but "toys". Many of them are mere shadows of what they used to be in 5ed.

My main army is Eldar. BA have always been a red headed 2nd child to me just to give me breaks between painting space elves.

The Eldar have fared MUCH better than BA in 6ed and are a metric ****ton more fun to play than BA by a longshot. Especially with the FW bits.

[Sanguineone]

See you are with me there. Furious charge should never have been changed.
It would have caused a lot less if a broken heart, and believe me mine is broken, if they'd just said that allied forces can embark and act as normal in relation to the primary detachments vehicles they wouldn't have had to add another update to most FAQ's.
I dream of a day I can have my 13th wooden popping out of a stormraven with Seth leading them.

Why GW? Why?!? It's almost a valentines treat!
I do hope the new book has something juicy in there.......it has to doesn't it?

[Sanguineone]

I'm not going to edit that last post because it had me cracked up.
I meant to write Wulfen.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet you still have the flier yes? And can fill it with horribly Killy troops choices yes?

Not sure where the issues are here. Other toys have been shared in the past, from Land Raider Crusaders (Black Templar toy) to land speeders with heavy Bolter and assault cannon (Ravenwing toy).

To the best of my knowledge (and to be fair, Blood Angels is the only Codex I don't own. Oversight soon to be corrected) you are still the only Chapter to have easy and plentiful access to Assault Marines? Oh, and Sanguinary Priests. FnP may have dropped a pip, but now works against power weapons yes? So the sharing (and not the loss) of a toy is hardly big enough beans to worry about?

[Tynskel]

I dream of a day I can have my 13th wooden popping out of a stormraven with Seth leading them.


you can already do this: Apocalypse.

[Anggul]

I have absolutely no pity for Space Wolves at all. They have so much under-priced silliness that being less effective against flyers is reasonable. Also, just use Forgeworld or Imperial Guard allies if you're that worried. The Wolves quite like the guard (relatively speaking), so it's not exactly un-fluffy, even if you just have a couple of minimal Veteran squads in Vendettas. Space Marines are supposed rely on the Imperial Navy for air support most of the time, but to sell more models GW made the Stormtalon which has no real point when they could just tell the Imperial Navy to do it, and the Stormraven which also has no point when Thunderhawks exist but they wanted a 40k version because a Thunderhawk would be rather unfair in a non-apocalypse game. It exists for gameplay, fluff-wise there's no point.

[sangrail777]

Blood Angels por vida! Damn the rules and what you think is better, I'm down for what I got and how I play it. :D

(Don't get me wrong I play by the rules set out by codex and faq's, just saying I ain't crying about the changes, just making due with'em and still tearing apart enimies regardless of changes, and thats what TRUE BLOOD ANGELS need to do. Or Ya might just pick up another army and play with them.

[BatMarine]

So... Y'all are complaining that Blood Angels are losing everything that makes them unique, with the caveat that fast Rhino chassis, Assault Cannon Preds, Assault Marine troops, Feel No Pain bubbles, Sanguinary Guard, Blender Dreads, Death Company, AND a chance for free fearless/furious charge on your units doesn't count?

Now I'm not saying y'all didn't take a hit in the loss of initiative on Furious Charge, that coupled with the side-grade of Feel No Pain made you worse at hitting non power weapon MEQ. That being said, you guys are still an incredibly unique codex. Yes it's weaker than it was, but the idea that you're losing all that makes you unique is patently false.

Also it's pretty silly to complain that you didn't get the Storm Talon in one post, and say it is useless in another.... Side note, I'd love to have it in my Grey Knights. One model that's cheaper than average would be great! And stop acting like psybolts would make it op... It just makes it into a psycannon.... That's not exactly new for the army, and it's on a weak platform anyhow...

[Kawauso]

Stormtalons don't really fit the way GK operate, though. They don't have main battle tanks like the Vindicator/Predator, etc. because all of their vehicles revolve around getting their hyper-elite soldiers into combat with fire support as a secondary role.


And I would agree with you there is still loads that make the BA a unique army.

I for one am saddened, however, at how difficult it is to field the army the way I envision it - that is, going completely nuts with the 'flying' elements of the army.

[fuzzbuket]

HOW TERRIBLE TO HAVE A COMPETITIVE 6th ED CODEX. WHAT A SHAME.

GW hates the BA fluff and thats about it.

[eldargal]

I love it when Marine players start b!tching about being hard done by. You can almost cut the sense of entitlement steaming off them with a knife.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah, because Tyranids are so obviously loved by Games Workshop that they have a supremely balanced codex with lots of great units to....er..arh...err.....

You don't see me complaining that Genestealers can no longer assault from Outflank, or that Overwatch and random charge length screws up half my assaults, simply because there are always positives to balance the negatives. Tervigons and Termagants are amongst the best Troops choices you can take when used properly, and flying Hive Tyrants with brain-leech devourers are a blessing in an edition where flyers are common. Not to mention Harpies, Zoanthropes and the like are more viable than they were before.

So Blood Angels lost some stuff and can't run assault armies as well anymore. What else do you get? You still have a lot of mobile, effective firepower in an edition where mobile, effective firepower is king. You have versatile Librarians and some of the best Dreadnoughts you can get. Not to mention, that unit you supposedly lost - but in fact still have - is always a great choice as far as flyers go. Trust me, you aren't the only codex that has changed a lot with 6th Edition, for better or worse.

[spaceman91]

Im a BA player and i dont see why people are complaining about are dex. I should state now that i haven't used them in a while, all though i have used them in 6th. They aren't that bad, they are still marines after all. Yes i preferred FC being +1I bit o well and yes i would of liked the storm talon in return for toys borrowed but once again o well. Can we please all now stop complaining about how the BA have been hard done by ( insert charity appeal music ) lets all think of those worse off then are selves, by this i mean eldar,black templars and my beloved tau. And breathe rant over. Go back to what you are doing.

[BatMarine]

Stormtalons don't really fit the way GK operate, though. They don't have main battle tanks like the Vindicator/Predator, etc. because all of their vehicles revolve around getting their hyper-elite soldiers into combat with fire support as a secondary role.


And I would agree with you there is still loads that make the BA a unique army.

I for one am saddened, however, at how difficult it is to field the army the way I envision it - that is, going completely nuts with the 'flying' elements of the army.

I completely agree that it doesn't fit their general tactics, I would just like it. It is a shame that more armies can't get in on the flyer spam... I guess...?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

My third army are a blood angels successor, they are doing absolutely fine in 6th, not sure what the OP is complaining about at all.

If anyone is hard done by it is Sisters Of Battle (a very boring/limited WD codex and litterally no plastics at all, not even metal boxsets!)

[Houghten]

Almost no plastics. Immolator.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Almost no plastics. Immolator.

You are right! I always thought that was a hybrid kit for some reason.

[Defenestratus]

I love it when Marine players start b!tching about being hard done by. You can almost cut the sense of entitlement steaming off them with a knife.

Sorry EG, but you're just as bad when you feel a perceived Eldar/DE slight. May I remind you of the whole nightwing saga?

[eldargal]

That's my point. Some armies are genuinely* screwed over constantly, Marines are not. I mean Blood Angels took the eldar niche of the fastest army when their book came out for heavens sake but apparently that isn't enough.


*Tyranids, eldar and to some extent Tau spring to mind.

[The Sovereign]

I have absolutely no pity for Space Wolves at all. They have so much under-priced silliness

It ain't 2009 anymore. Wolves were cheesy in the early days of the Obama presidency, but half a dozen newer/cheesier codices have since stolen their thunder. They have cheaper missile launchers and good tac marines for around the same price as other marine codices, and the party stops right there. You're paying exorbitant point costs for most other things. Trust me, Wolves players that don't spam Long Fangs aren't feeling too cheesy these days.

[MajorWesJanson]

Ok, so not only have we seen the changes to Furious Charge that stole the thunder of most BA lists but now the Angels (and Knights) have suffered the indignity Calgar and his boys borrowing their ride without asking.
This perhaps I could have taken on its own..............however I've just discovered that the FAQ's have been updated................
Apparently the Stormraven no longer uses 'skies of blood' the name having been replaced by the more universal 'skies of fury' and also there is a note to remove Deep Strike from the list of its special rules.
I'm starting to think that these official updates to codex are the worst idea since Greedo shooting first.
This trend has seen a lot of my friends moving on to other gaming systems........and I must admit I'm very tempted myself.......

Furious charge got nerfed, which hurts many many armies as much or more than BA. But Rage got far far better.
All fliers lost Deepstrike, not just the Storm Raven. Valks and Vendettas also lost Scout/Outflank as well.
Don't forget that Helbrect is borrowing your ride, and taking the Storm Talon from Calgar as well.

[Defenestratus]

That's my point. Some armies are genuinely* screwed over constantly, Marines are not. I mean Blood Angels took the eldar niche of the fastest army when their book came out for heavens sake but apparently that isn't enough.


*Tyranids, eldar and to some extent Tau spring to mind.

FWIW, I'm not upset that other armies stole my toy.

I'm upset that I lost Skies of blood.

That was a genuinely unique thing that I actually used quite often.

[Nabterayl]

... you're upset that the name got changed? I didn't see any changes from the last version to the current one.

[Defenestratus]

... you're upset that the name got changed? I didn't see any changes from the last version to the current one.

This is what I get for getting information 2nd hand. I was led to believe that they lost the rule completely. It was just renamed.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Games Workshop doesn't hate your army. At absolute most they may not be sure about what to do with your army (ie. Sisters of Battle) but they don't hate you. The game is a living thing. New things come out, old things change, and the whole configuration of what's Good and Less Good shifts with it. Blood Angels have been out for a while now, and so they've gone through these shifts a fair bit. What was once special is now standard. When they come around again, I imagine they'll get something else that makes them special, and then the cycle will continue.

Here's what I wanna know:

What missiles is the Space Marine Stormraven getting? Because I assume it ain't Bloodstrike/Mindstrike missiles.

[spaceman91]

What missiles is the Space Marine Stormraven getting? Because I assume it ain't Bloodstrike/Mindstrike missiles.

hunterkiller would be my guess.

[Phototoxin]

I play BA and I don't see what the whining is about. FFS BA are the 2nd strongest marine dex after puppies.
Heck why are puppies *****ing? Take allies if you are so desperate for a flier. As a BA I cannot take a mortis contemptor but if I ally with 'similarly coloured red codex marines' I can. Imagination and less whining please.

[Learn2Eel]

What missiles is the Space Marine Stormraven getting? Because I assume it ain't Bloodstrike/Mindstrike missiles.

According to their website, they are called "Stormstrike Missiles". No idea what they actually do though, I'm guessing they are probably similar to Skyhammer missiles or something.

[Tynskel]

I am guessing they are Hunter Killers. Not quite AP1, but still still Str 8 AP3.

[Learn2Eel]

That's probably more accurate.

[Pendragon38]

They don't hate you, your there red headed stepchild and they gave your toy to there own kid. J/J

[Houghten]

... you're upset that the name got changed? I didn't see any changes from the last version to the current one.This is what I get for getting information 2nd hand. I was led to believe that they lost the rule completely. It was just renamed.

Actually, it wasn't just renamed; Jump Infantry lost their safe version.

[OrksOrksOrks]

They don't hate you, your there red headed stepchild and they gave your toy to there own kid. J/J

* you're

*their

Twice.

[Learn2Eel]

Alert; grammar troll in sector 16!

:p

[Psychosplodge]

It's not often I agree with Orks^3 but you can't fault him this time...

[Learn2Eel]

I guess discrimination does require better grammar....:p

[Sanguineone]

Shame there isn't a like button on this.
I may have to paint all my BA with red hair in tribute.

[Sanguineone]

Just noticed that there is a FAQ out for the new death from the skies book. Presumably before anyone has received their copy yet.........
Too many FAQ's and official updates at the moment.

[Houghten]

That has to be a new record.

[spaceman91]

Just read it. It is the most pointless FaQ i have ever seen.

[Sanguineone]

Again my heart is breaking.........
Feels like I'm in a bad relationship with games workshop....
But I still love you!

[Sanguineone]

Well got my copy and I like the ace pilot rules for the BA, especially the aura of sanguinius.
Also I must assume the wolves will be getting a new flyer as they have an ace.
Still unsure about when you can use special manoeuvres as they are for missions with burning skies.
Also noted that most of the missions allow you to deploy your flyers at the start of the game undoing the damage done to the SR by 6th.
Also the designers note on the SR must apply to just the blood strike missiles or does it mean that you can follow the skies of blood in reference to jump infantry or deep strike? Both of these have been changed in the FAQ's and blood strike is referred to in the new book. What does the designer mean? Has someone got FAQ trigger happy or has the designers note been FAQ'd?
Help guys!
I still would have preferred to see this book launched with a new SM flyer.

[robrodgers46]

It ain't 2009 anymore. Wolves were cheesy in the early days of the Obama presidency, but half a dozen newer/cheesier codices have since stolen their thunder. They have cheaper missile launchers and good tac marines for around the same price as other marine codices, and the party stops right there. You're paying exorbitant point costs for most other things. Trust me, Wolves players that don't spam Long Fangs aren't feeling too cheesy these days.

^This. I love my wolves, but to be competitive, and by that I mean have a decent chance to win even a friendly game, you are very limited in your choices. I'm want to model a Predator, and I will at some point, but if I ever take in a game it will be because I want to see it in the killed pile while I congratulate my opponent on winning.

Yes, the basic Space Wolf list, all Grey Hunters and Long Fangs, is still very strong. Give them an ADL and you can win a lot of games. But I think 6th Edition in many ways hurt SW a lot, in that it made so many of their units useless in any sort of gaming sense. I'm hoping the next codex is coming soon, because they need an update.

(All my armies need updates: SW, IG, Orks, and WHFB Dwarfs. I'm hoping this codex/army book every month routine continues for awhile.)

[Sanguineone]

You could be lucky, maybe they will bring out the storm crow mentioned in the heresy books.
That would have been a nice addition to the list of new vehicles.

[phreakachu]

CRAP IN A PITA... sm doesnt need anything new. CSM need a new flyer, or access to the current SM fliers before SM need ANOTHER new toy

[Pendragon38]

* you're

*their

Twice. haha oops, that didn't go the way I wanted but hell I'm not here to win any awards either. I'm happy to have a storm raven or three in my army now.

[Galadren]

Didn't read every page, but I just want to say as a Black Templar player you can all cry me a river.

[Martel732]

The BA basically overpay across the board by 6th edition standards. They are now very pedestrian in HTH, which is a serious problem for a list built around ASM. The BA are a true trap codex, as we have many shinies that look awesome, but suck *** on the actual battlefield in actual conditions against actual competitive lists.

I frankly don't care that other marine chapters got the Stormraven, because I think the thing kinda sucks. We are being charged for cargo capacity that can't be used and the Vendetta is just a much superior AV 12 flier for far fewer points.

[Kawauso]

To be fair, the Vendetta is a poor example, since it is superior to pretty much every flier out there.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah. Because high WS Dreadnoughts with twin Blood Talons suck soooooo bad....

As to the initial question..... Is it because you've successfully married paranoia with a sense of entitlement?

[Martel732]

Yeah. Because high WS Dreadnoughts with twin Blood Talons suck soooooo bad....

As to the initial question..... Is it because you've successfully married paranoia with a sense of entitlement?

In my local meta, the meqs have been knocked down a notch for sure. I'm sure what this entitlement of which you speak is all about. All the best meq lists in 6th are not codex astartes marines, so I'm really confused.

I always snicker when my opponent brings blood talon dreads. They have serious deployment issues. And AP 3 STR 6 is seriously lacking versus many foes. I vastly prefer the fragnought, which can arrive via drop pod and at least do damage before it gets smoked like a punk. The BA are not a good list. In fact, as I have demonstrated by swapping armies with people, they are pretty bad. I haven't lost against another BA player since 5th edition.

You might have hate for meqs, but please direct it to the Space Puppies or Grey Cheese, because the BA are one of the worst lists in 6th edition.

[Martel732]

To be fair, the Vendetta is a poor example, since it is superior to pretty much every flier out there.

The Vendetta exists. People bring them. That's all that matters. They are the measuring stick. The Stormraven is extremely poor in comparison. And for causing damage to the enemy ground forces and durability, the hellturkey is better as well. For anti-air, I'd rather have two stormtalons than a single stormraven. But BA don't have that option.

[eldargal]

Gosh it must be terrible only having an average AV12 flyer to shuttle your S4 T 4 3+ army around in.:rolleyes:

[ElectricPaladin]

Gosh it must be terrible only having an average AV12 flyer to shuttle your S4 T 4 3+ army around in.:rolleyes:

I have to agree with you.

The problem with Blood Angels is not that they categorically suck. The problem is that they are hard to play in the fun ways that they were originally designed to play. It's kind of like how you could kind of get by with the Tau codex if you wanted to play a static gunline, forget about markerlights, and spam railguns like a motherf^cker. The problem is, who wants to play like that?

Similarly, Blood Angels can be good, I think, if you play them like Space Marines with a few neat tricks. The trouble is, who wants to do that? If I wanted to play Space Marines, I'd have a Space Marines army (well, I actually have one of those, too, but enough about me). So all these Blood Angels players have these collections that just don't work anymore because they were based on the assumption that the Blood Angels - the Imperium's deep striking assault experts - would be... you know, good at deep striking and winning assaults. I think their bitterness is justified.

The Tau codex is neat and flavorful and looks like it plays in a unique, stylish, and effective way. The same can be said, it seems for Dark Angels and Chaos Marines and Daemons. Let's hope that the trend continues.

[eldargal]

That is something that plagues most 4th/5th ed codices though and let's face it with Marine stat lines and a 3+ armour save older SM books are still much more playable than older non-Marine books. Tau had to wait seven years to get a new book, Blood angels have been waiting three. Eldar have been waiting seven years and SoB have a poor WD codex after eight years of waiting.

Eldar don't even have a flyer for gods sake so I have zero sympathy for BA players complaining about how their AV12 all around flyer isn't as special as the extremely broken vendetta.

[ElectricPaladin]

That is something that plagues most 4th/5th ed codices though and let's face it with Marine stat lines and a 3+ armour save older SM books are still much more playable than older non-Marine books. Tau had to wait seven years to get a new book, Blood angels have been waiting three. Eldar have been waiting seven years and SoB have a poor WD codex after eight years of waiting.

Eldar don't even have a flyer for gods sake so I have zero sympathy for BA players complaining about how their AV12 all around flyer isn't as special as the extremely broken vendetta.

Yeah... I get it. My Tau were practically unplayable from the moment I picked them up. My Blood Angels - while still outdated - gave me some of my first real wins.

My personal frustration is less with how the stormraven is bad - I kind of like it, actually - and more with how good the Vendetta is. Really, GW? You're that bad at balancing? I know you can do better. Can't you just... FAQ it? Like, reduce its AVs or something?

[eldargal]

Yep, the vendetta is broken. It need to be increased in price, have an AV reduction and preferably not get the option for squadrons because flyers are just too powerful to get 3 in one FOC slot. I know from experience how frustrating it can be to compare ones own flyers to the vendetta (Nightwing) but it is still the vendetta that is the problem not the others.

[spaceman91]

Yep, the vendetta is broken. It need to be increased in price, have an AV reduction and preferably not get the option for squadrons because flyers are just too powerful to get 3 in one FOC slot. I know from experience how frustrating it can be to compare ones own flyers to the vendetta (Nightwing) but it is still the vendetta that is the problem not the others.

I can't understand people strife with shooting them down( except eldar, how you shoot down any flyer i will never know). I jave a stormtalon that has done the job on a few instants. I know it's hard to kill but so are a lot of things.
p.s. im not picking on you eldargal i just used you as a quote because you were last to comment.

[eldargal]

It is a combination of being relatively difficult to kill, being cheap and coming in 3s. It is especially bad for armies without their own flyers which is one reason why I have little sympathy for Blood Angels. They at least have a unit that can shoot at other flyers at full BS while being able to ignore anything without the skyfire rule and anything with S5 or below.

[spaceman91]

Coming in 3's is a b#£%h but russ do the same. I hate to be one of those people but everyone has access to skyfire. It maybe 100pts for the defence line but surely if you dump a guardian squad with a warlock in it it might be better the a kick in the teeth.
Edit: the warlock is for the bs. No other reason.

[eldargal]

Defense lines are easily contained, stick some LOS blocking terrain in front of it when you are setting up and you should be able to restrict its's AA fire to half the board or less.

Russ's do come in threes but they can be assaulted and shot at with full BS.

[Phototoxin]

Defense lines are easily contained, stick some LOS blocking terrain in front of it when you are setting up and you should be able to restrict its's AA fire to half the board or less.

Russ's do come in threes but they can be assaulted and shot at with full BS.

I play BA and I think they're fine. My only 'complaint' is that I need to take a 5 man sniper squad and jump libby to take my allied mortis contemptor.. oh boo hoo...

BA are better than vanilla marines, more mobile, have widespread FC and FNP, lots of access to template weapons (flamers and hand flamers) All their vehicles are JustBetter™ So I don't see the problem.

@Eldargirl - that's why we tend to mutually agree to set up terrain or else have pre-setup terrain before we deploy fortifications. Not RAW but friendlier!

[spaceman91]

Defense lines are easily contained, stick some LOS blocking terrain in front of it when you are setting up and you should be able to restrict its's AA fire to half the board or less.

Russ's do come in threes but they can be assaulted and shot at with full BS.

i wouldn't play people like that again. I prefer everyone has fun so we don't do things like that. I feel sorry for anyone who has opponents like that.

[Martel732]

It is a combination of being relatively difficult to kill, being cheap and coming in 3s. It is especially bad for armies without their own flyers which is one reason why I have little sympathy for Blood Angels. They at least have a unit that can shoot at other flyers at full BS while being able to ignore anything without the skyfire rule and anything with S5 or below.

In theory this sounds good, but the stormraven is so expensive and the Vendetta is so good at shooting them down, against an air cav list, I'd rather have zero stormravens and take my chance. The only problem with this is that I build TAC lists, and the stormraven is there to shoot down helldrakes, which CAN'T be ignored in most circumstances.

The BA codex is still pretty good if you want to build tailored lists. But if you want to build a TAC list without a priori knowledge of youropponent, I assert that it is one of the worst codicies in the game, due to the high point cost of *everything*. Maybe THE worst for TAC. The Eldar might be better off not having to worry about whether to bring the overpriced, fragile Stormraven.

[eldargal]

No one is arguing that the vendetta isn't broken, but that doesn't make the stormraven underpowered either.

[Martel732]

I play BA and I think they're fine. My only 'complaint' is that I need to take a 5 man sniper squad and jump libby to take my allied mortis contemptor.. oh boo hoo...

BA are better than vanilla marines, more mobile, have widespread FC and FNP, lots of access to template weapons (flamers and hand flamers) All their vehicles are JustBetter™ So I don't see the problem. Just because you think the BA are fine doesn't make it so against people who are veterans and understand the flaws with the BA. Ie, their vulnerability to spoiling attacks, sacrificial units, etc.

@Eldargirl - that's why we tend to mutually agree to set up terrain or else have pre-setup terrain before we deploy fortifications. Not RAW but friendlier!

The vanilla dex can field much better TAC lists than the BA. At the current moment, especially with the reduction in the storm talon point value, the vanilla codex, while middling in my opinion, is far superior to the BA codex.

And FC is a joke now, imo. Especially since the BA must bring a weak IC to get it. FNP still has utility, but the priest is basically at half power now.

[Martel732]

No one is arguing that the vendetta isn't broken, but that doesn't make the stormraven underpowered either.

Everything is relative. In my play area, IG allies or IG main forces are very common. The Vendetta has to be the measuring stick. At least for me. The stormraven can not be safely used as a transport, which I'm sure its paying for. This, to me, makes it overpriced and therefore underpowered as its main role as a hedge against helldrakes and other annoying non-Vendetta fliers.

[eldargal]

Well that is a problem with your meta, not the stormraven. Houserules or finding a more varied group to play with are possible solutions.

[Martel732]

To address the OP, though, I don't think that GW hates the BA at all. I see the current state of the BA as just a comedy of small nerfs that synergize to be a massive nerf. Most units in the codex got worse in mathematical terms (sanguinary priest) or meta terms (sanguinary guard; I don't know about you, but I see mass plasma a lot. That rules these guys out as viable in a TAC list) and still cost the same points. Being potent in HTH combat is key to BA fluff and viability for their codex to function, and this is not just the case anymore. If one tries to play them as fast vanilla marines, you are hamstrung because the BA armory does not support this like the vanilla codex does. Almost every player in my area still trying to force BA lists into viability has their plans fall apart because they forget the other guy gets a turn too. The BA do look decent on paper until you actually field them and see how badly outnumbered and outgunned they are ending up in practice.

I wish GW would get rid of the codex system, and charge like 75 bucks a year to sign up to their website and post all codicies online and update them in real time for every nerf and every faq. Of course, they had their chance in the flier book to address the Vendetta and we got silence. Whatever, GW, you are having a hard time competing for my gaming time against Starcraft, where the devs game a darn.

[Martel732]

Well that is a problem with your meta, not the stormraven. Houserules or finding a more varied group to play with are possible solutions.

Not really. The neighboring city has the same issue. I prefer to play RAW, as to not get a varied experience from tourney to tourney and store to store. And I also addressed why even without the Vendetta, the Stormraven is overpriced and leads quickly down the road to bad lists.

I can't blame any given person for wanting to win, and bringing Vendettas maximizes that. Their job is not to play with kid gloves. It's GWs job to make sure people can't do that. GWs stuff is expensive and I find it offensive to even have to consider resorting to house rules to fix something they should have fixed.

[Martel732]

I can't understand people strife with shooting them down( except eldar, how you shoot down any flyer i will never know). I jave a stormtalon that has done the job on a few instants. I know it's hard to kill but so are a lot of things.
p.s. im not picking on you eldargal i just used you as a quote because you were last to comment.

Vendettas don't cost much more than dreadnoughts. It's like getting flying for free. No matter what you use to shoot down Vendettas, the IG are still ahead of the curve. Unless they had troops in them. Then the IG opponent is getting ahead somewhat. Compare this to the Stormraven, where losing an empty one puts the BA behind and losing a loaded one basically is auto-loss right there due to low BA model count.

[Martel732]

I play BA and I think they're fine. My only 'complaint' is that I need to take a 5 man sniper squad and jump libby to take my allied mortis contemptor.. oh boo hoo...

BA are better than vanilla marines, more mobile, have widespread FC and FNP, lots of access to template weapons (flamers and hand flamers) All their vehicles are JustBetter™ So I don't see the problem.

@Eldargirl - that's why we tend to mutually agree to set up terrain or else have pre-setup terrain before we deploy fortifications. Not RAW but friendlier!

The problem is the BA pay for everything you listed. And in 6th edition, they pay too much. Again, everything you said is true, but then your opponent gets a turn and all the plans and schemes turn to dust.

[Mr Mystery]

Everything is relative. In my play area, IG allies or IG main forces are very common. The Vendetta has to be the measuring stick. At least for me. The stormraven can not be safely used as a transport, which I'm sure its paying for. This, to me, makes it overpriced and therefore underpowered as its main role as a hedge against helldrakes and other annoying non-Vendetta fliers.

So you're using a unit written before the flier rules were worked on as the measuring stick because?

Stormraven has numerous advantages. For a start, it carries Space Marines. Second, it carries a sodding Dreadnought. Next? Far more flexible weapon load. Three twin linked Lascannons is pointless if there are no suitable targets. Vendetta's weapons are also a fixed arc. With the flier rules, a decent opponent can just keep out of said arc.

[Martel732]

So you're using a unit written before the flier rules were worked on as the measuring stick because?

Stormraven has numerous advantages. For a start, it carries Space Marines. Second, it carries a sodding Dreadnought. Next? Far more flexible weapon load. Three twin linked Lascannons is pointless if there are no suitable targets. Vendetta's weapons are also a fixed arc. With the flier rules, a decent opponent can just keep out of said arc.

Amusingly enough, the Stormraven was also written before the flier rules. That's why it was unfieldable in 5th. An AV 12 skimmer for its price point? Give me a break. The Vendetta was mediocre in 5th. But now, the Stormraven becomes mediocre and the Vendetta amazing. The Vendetta is the measuring stick because it is legal and by far the most common flier I see game in and game out. That is the definition of a measuring stick. Just like how Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the measuring sticks for good quarterbacks.

Carrying space marines is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Putting space marines in the thing makes it so valuable that it WILL be shot down by a competent opponent, crippling the BA force. Also, I don't want my dreadnoughts on transports, I want them contributing from turn 1 and providing armor saturation. The transport capability of the Stormraven is a complete waste.

As I have pointed out, the IG can afford to put Vendettas in hover mode if necessary. At their price point, this is not a crazy thing to do. They become dreads with three twin linked lascannons. In fact, if I could buy a dread at that price with three twin linked lascannons, I would. And this thing flies and transports on top of it! Epic lulz.

In a TAC list, most IG players seem willing to take the gamble there there will be something for the Vendetta to shoot. Most of the time, there is. You just address anti-horde with the rest of your list as necessary. Hey, look! The Vendetta is cheap, so there is plenty of points to do so! The cheapness of the Vendetta has a cascade effect in this way.

[Mr Mystery]

So because you don't personally favour it, it's automatically worthless? Arrogant much?

Stormraven is pointed for carrying Marines, and a Dreadnought. If you choose not to use that capacity, that is not a design flaw. And armour saturation? Really? Really really? So you'd prefer the mid/late game threat of an active HTH Dreadnought to be on the board from the off, rather than be able to deploy it where it needs to be, in a stage of the game where it can panel the enemy?

Now I'd you don't want to use it, that's cool, not about to tell anyone how to play the game. But to slate a perfectly functional unit because it doesn't fit your personal play style is stupid.

[Kawauso]

Using something that is clearly underpriced/overpowered as a measuring stick is going to give you some pretty skewed results...

Of course if you could take a triple-TL-lascannon dread for the price of a Vendetta you would - at its price the Vendetta is a ridiculously good buy. It's so good and so inexpensive and so versatile and so abundant that it makes other fliers across the board look bad by comparison.

Stormravens have a lot of great things going for them. An obscene amount of firepower, for one. The ability to split-fire with one weapon. The ability to take things like assault cannons and multi-meltas on a flier is also pretty huge in the battle for air superiority. Then on top of that the Stormraven is the single toughest flier in the game with the best all-around armour and melta-immunity (which isn't really anything special on a 12AV platform or a flier, but it -has- it). Then there's its transport capacity.

Yes, putting units in a Stormraven puts them at risk. But if you're doing that you ought to be factoring that into your list somehow. You should have other units capable of neutralizing threats to your Stormraven or -some- sort of plan taking this risk into consideration. You can also, upon deployment, just...not embark units on it, if you think your opponent's list or setup will make it too risky.

I agree that the BA codex has a number of problems since 6th ed. but the Stormraven is not one of them. They even get the best missiles on their version, barring situations where GK mindstrike missiles come in handy.

[Martel732]

So because you don't personally favour it, it's automatically worthless? Arrogant much?

Stormraven is pointed for carrying Marines, and a Dreadnought. If you choose not to use that capacity, that is not a design flaw. And armour saturation? Really? Really really? So you'd prefer the mid/late game threat of an active HTH Dreadnought to be on the board from the off, rather than be able to deploy it where it needs to be, in a stage of the game where it can panel the enemy?

Now I'd you don't want to use it, that's cool, not about to tell anyone how to play the game. But to slate a perfectly functional unit because it doesn't fit your personal play style is stupid.

It's not that I don't personally favor it. I actually think it would be kind of cool. But it's an *insane* thing to do under the current rules. A loaded Stormraven, even if its the only thing your opponent downs that turn, is a crippling loss to a BA list. I didn't make it suck. Or decide that it sucks. GW made it suck.

The design flaw is the combination of the price tag and AV 12 HP 3. It's too fragile for the point investment. It just is. Again, this is a mathematics thing, because of GW. Ceramite plating, in my experience, is basically useless. And I'm sure that's in the points too.

It also doesn't help the Stormraven's case that literally every time I see a BA player utilize its transport capacity, they lose. I've been paying attention to this up at my local store. Maybe that's random chance, but I seriously doubt it. It could also be the case that the BA aren't winning much in general and this is a statistical anomaly.

[Martel732]

Using something that is clearly underpriced/overpowered as a measuring stick is going to give you some pretty skewed results...

Of course if you could take a triple-TL-lascannon dread for the price of a Vendetta you would - at its price the Vendetta is a ridiculously good buy. It's so good and so inexpensive and so versatile and so abundant that it makes other fliers across the board look bad by comparison.

Stormravens have a lot of great things going for them. An obscene amount of firepower, for one. The ability to split-fire with one weapon. The ability to take things like assault cannons and multi-meltas on a flier is also pretty huge in the battle for air superiority. Then on top of that the Stormraven is the single toughest flier in the game with the best all-around armour and melta-immunity (which isn't really anything special on a 12AV platform or a flier, but it -has- it). Then there's its transport capacity.

Yes, putting units in a Stormraven puts them at risk. But if you're doing that you ought to be factoring that into your list somehow. You should have other units capable of neutralizing threats to your Stormraven or -some- sort of plan taking this risk into consideration. You can also, upon deployment, just...not embark units on it, if you think your opponent's list or setup will make it too risky.

I agree that the BA codex has a number of problems since 6th ed. but the Stormraven is not one of them. They even get the best missiles on their version, barring situations where GK mindstrike missiles come in handy.

Making other fliers look bad by comparison *is* making them bad. Especially in a game of direct conflict. It's not like an MMORPG where one class can out dps the other. If they both can kill the NPCs, there is only a time difference, not a functional difference. Since myself and other BA players must go head-to-head vs these things, they are, in effect, making our flier less good than if the Vendetta didn't exist.

I think that in most cases the helldrake is harder to kill than the Stormraven. At the same time, I'm not arguing that the Stormraven isn't potent. It's potent. But once you factor in the reserve rules and the cost of the blasted thing, it gets a rating of mediocre. Mediocre is mediocre. Mediocre is not bad. But mediocre is not single-handedly making a bad codex viable.

I agree that there is a the possibility of making a game-time decision on whether to embark or not. At least there is that. But for a dreadnought, if you don't embark, and it doesn't have a drop pod, it's kinda hosed. Likewise for say foot assault or something. Just do the math of a loaded stormraven vs a loaded Vendetta with plasma vets. The Stormraven is *way* too juicy of a target.

I'd also like to point out that with a loaded Stormraven, it's unlikely the BA list has enough forces to start off with to actually neutralize the enemy AA. Those other problems you mentioned? Those stop the BA from being able to pull this off.

I agree that the Stormraven is not a problem per se, except that people point to it as if it somehow vindicates all the other garbage in the BA codex. And it's a trap unit. It's tempting for players to use that transport function when it is both piecemealing your list when the list already has body count issues and providing a super convenient way for your opponent to cripple your list.

[Phototoxin]

And FC is a joke now, imo. Especially since the BA must bring a weak IC to get it. FNP still has utility, but the priest is basically at half power now.

They've always needed an IC to get FC...

[Kawauso]

You make a good point about the Heldrake - I forgot about its daemon shenanigans with the 5++ and what have you. The Stormraven is still a tank of an aircraft, however.

As for the Vendetta, yes, it makes other aircraft bad. The problem isn't that the other fliers out there are bad, though. It's that the Vendetta is so much better by too great a margin. Again, the Vendetta is the problem, not the other fliers.

I wasn't pointing to the Stormraven as the saving grace of the BA codex - however, you are right in that it is a costly investment in an army that has a low model count.

I think the two greatest issues affecting the codex right now are overall cost balancing within the book and the inability to go full-reserve. That is for armies attempting to fully utilize the DoA rules, however. Going for a combined arms/balanced list, I don't think the Blood Angels really have any problems. They can do that as well as the other marine books. That's kind of the problem, however - at that point, the appeal of using the BA book over another is lessened.

That's how I feel about it, at least - I have a BA army because I want jump packs all over the place, damnit!
It's frustrating when you build a fun all-jumpers list and your model count comes in under that of a similarly-constructed GK list (i.e. not min-maxed). Even more so now that the deep-strike-centric army can't go all-reserve.

Overall I'm on your side that the BA book is in need of some serious re-balancing - I don't think the army overall is in as dire a state as you seem to, however.
I'm just disappointed that I can't effectively field them the way I -want- to, any more (as it was already pretty tricky going all-'air' in 5th).

[Martel732]

You make a good point about the Heldrake - I forgot about its daemon shenanigans with the 5++ and what have you. The Stormraven is still a tank of an aircraft, however.

As for the Vendetta, yes, it makes other aircraft bad. The problem isn't that the other fliers out there are bad, though. It's that the Vendetta is so much better by too great a margin. Again, the Vendetta is the problem, not the other fliers.

I wasn't pointing to the Stormraven as the saving grace of the BA codex - however, you are right in that it is a costly investment in an army that has a low model count.

I think the two greatest issues affecting the codex right now are overall cost balancing within the book and the inability to go full-reserve. That is for armies attempting to fully utilize the DoA rules, however. Going for a combined arms/balanced list, I don't think the Blood Angels really have any problems. They can do that as well as the other marine books. That's kind of the problem, however - at that point, the appeal of using the BA book over another is lessened.

That's how I feel about it, at least - I have a BA army because I want jump packs all over the place, damnit!
It's frustrating when you build a fun all-jumpers list and your model count comes in under that of a similarly-constructed GK list (i.e. not min-maxed). Even more so now that the deep-strike-centric army can't go all-reserve.

Overall I'm on your side that the BA book is in need of some serious re-balancing - I don't think the army overall is in as dire a state as you seem to, however.
I'm just disappointed that I can't effectively field them the way I -want- to, any more (as it was already pretty tricky going all-'air' in 5th).

It's only dire in a TAC situation. As I said, the BA can be tailored to any given foe to be pretty competitive. But if you just build a BA list for general usage, you will run into list after list that has schemes you can't stop or quite overcome. It's because our models are so expensive, and many of them don't really participate much in the shooting phase, the dominant phase of the game now.

I am not a huge fan of deep strike or reserves, even with DoA. That being said, I thought it was important to have that trick available as a threat in being if nothing else in 5th. Now that is knee-capped by the deployment rules. We MUST set up some forces to be exposed to the Tau or IG turkey shoot. This further forces the BA down a narrower funnel of builds.

If the Vendetta did not exist, the Stormraven would be immediately promoted to good, or even great in my estimation. Looking at Necron fliers, Ork fliers, DA fliers, I feel pretty good about the Stormraven, even if I never transport something in it. But, in a TAC environment, many lists can ally with IG or run IG with allies. For example, I'm a pretty experienced player, but I have yet defeat an IG list with Space Wolf allies. The math is so skewed against BA in that match up its nuts. Even the one time I rolled out of my mind, I still lost.

I'll admit I've gone to the "coward Angels" set up. I use hybrid mech with a single ASM squad with most of my ICs in it. And some FNP bikes. Because those did get much better in 6th. I use the fast on my vehicles to retrograde opponents that want to do HTH as often as I advance. I use the ASM to assault guys getting close to my mech element. Of course, this set up is gimped by the "no assault out of non-assault transports". No matter where the BA turn, there's a nerf. Nerfs that seem small until you go play.

Is this the best set up? Maybe not. I can't tell. I'm not seeing anyone else's BA builds doing horribly well in the W-L columns in my area. I find this hybrid mech/play keep away setup humiliating as a BA player, but there are too many lists that trump our HTH now. Or if not trump, make the combats so costly that we run out of gas. Basically any init 4 goober gets to punch us back in the face. Or how about random chaos marines that bought a CC weapon? Even worse, init 5 chaos marines with CC weapon? I think that the other marines lists are better at the combined arms approach because of their superior armories. Seriously, go look at what vanilla marines can put on their ICs and then look at BA.

The BA are an army built around the assault phase, and now our assault phase isn't even that good anymore, unless you are running DC, which is a whole other can of worms, due to their deployment problems.

[Martel732]

They've always needed an IC to get FC...

That's true, but now FC sucks for the BA. It's still fine for the Orks, of course though. So I'm paying for the same sanguinary priest with one whole wound and now one of the abilities he grants sucks. Sounds like a nerf to me.

[mysterex]

It's only dire in a TAC situation. As I said, the BA can be tailored to any given foe to be pretty competitive. But if you just build a BA list for general usage, you will run into list after list that has schemes you can't stop or quite overcome. It's because our models are so expensive, and many of them don't really participate much in the shooting phase, the dominant phase of the game now.

I am not a huge fan of deep strike or reserves, even with DoA. That being said, I thought it was important to have that trick available as a threat in being if nothing else in 5th. Now that is knee-capped by the deployment rules. We MUST set up some forces to be exposed to the Tau or IG turkey shoot. This further forces the BA down a narrower funnel of builds.

If the Vendetta did not exist, the Stormraven would be immediately promoted to good, or even great in my estimation. Looking at Necron fliers, Ork fliers, DA fliers, I feel pretty good about the Stormraven, even if I never transport something in it. But, in a TAC environment, many lists can ally with IG or run IG with allies. For example, I'm a pretty experienced player, but I have yet defeat an IG list with Space Wolf allies. The math is so skewed against BA in that match up its nuts. Even the one time I rolled out of my mind, I still lost.

I'll admit I've gone to the "coward Angels" set up. I use hybrid mech with a single ASM squad with most of my ICs in it. And some FNP bikes. Because those did get much better in 6th. I use the fast on my vehicles to retrograde opponents that want to do HTH as often as I advance. I use the ASM to assault guys getting close to my mech element. Of course, this set up is gimped by the "no assault out of non-assault transports". No matter where the BA turn, there's a nerf. Nerfs that seem small until you go play.

Is this the best set up? Maybe not. I can't tell. I'm not seeing anyone else's BA builds doing horribly well in the W-L columns in my area. I find this hybrid mech/play keep away setup humiliating as a BA player, but there are too many lists that trump our HTH now. Or if not trump, make the combats so costly that we run out of gas. Basically any init 4 goober gets to punch us back in the face. Or how about random chaos marines that bought a CC weapon? Even worse, init 5 chaos marines with CC weapon? I think that the other marines lists are better at the combined arms approach because of their superior armories. Seriously, go look at what vanilla marines can put on their ICs and then look at BA.

The BA are an army built around the assault phase, and now our assault phase isn't even that good anymore, unless you are running DC, which is a whole other can of worms, due to their deployment problems.

I've played around a bit using the Blood Angels to build a better Space Marine list. Never included Assault Marines but some of the other options just worked out cheaper (devastators) or better (fast vehicles).

I don't think the list is any worse than some of the older ones, it's just not in the top rank any more.

[ElectricPaladin]

I've played around a bit using the Blood Angels to build a better Space Marine list. Never included Assault Marines but some of the other options just worked out cheaper (devastators) or better (fast vehicles).

I don't think the list is any worse than some of the older ones, it's just not in the top rank any more.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The problem is that we're having two different conversations.

Look, if you could play your Eldar effectively by playing them as an enormous block of stompy infantry that rolled forwards, slowly chewing up everything in their path... would you say that the Eldar had a good codex? Or would you say that the Eldar had a weird and hopelessly outdated codex that forced them to rely on unflavorful options that most Eldar players don't want to buy enough of? Or what if the only way to make the Chaos Marines codex work was to play them just like regular marines and leave out of all the Chaos-y options, because they all sucked? You'd be annoyed. Even if there was a way to play your army that worked, you'd be annoyed.

We aren't just talking about how competitive the army is if you're willing to play to the one or so builds that still work. We're talking about how frustrating it is that you can't play a list that feels like a Blood Angels list ought to. And that is, I believe genuinely frustrating. The fact that I could buy two boxes of tacs, treat most of the special Blood Angels advantages as window-dressing, and win by playing the Blood Angels as "space marines, only red" is not comforting to nearly anyone who has bothered to spend a dram of money or time actually buying, converting, and painting an army of Blood Angels.

[Denzark]

Some facts based argument here:

1. BA do have exclusivity: Black Rage, Descent of Angels, Sang Priests, Fast vehicles, Baals, DS'ing LRs, etc etc ad infinitem.

2. An AV12 flyer with transport, assault, AP1 missiles and a dreadnought stuck up its arse is good. If you concentrate your fire properly, and load it out even half correctly, you will destroy your opponent's Av12 air. It is actually, good.

3. The nerf bat of furious charge affected my Berzerkers and Kharn. Kharn now hits simultaneously with vanilla space marine captains. Any BA player complaining about this should dry his eyes and get the chain axes out like we do.



The conclusions - GW doesn't hate BA, their performance at GW's own tournament at Warhammer World doesn't show them as weak if used competently and their time will come when their codex is 6th ed'd.

[Martel732]

Some facts based argument here:

1. BA do have exclusivity: Black Rage, Descent of Angels, Sang Priests, Fast vehicles, Baals, DS'ing LRs, etc etc ad infinitem.

2. An AV12 flyer with transport, assault, AP1 missiles and a dreadnought stuck up its arse is good. If you concentrate your fire properly, and load it out even half correctly, you will destroy your opponent's Av12 air. It is actually, good.

3. The nerf bat of furious charge affected my Berzerkers and Kharn. Kharn now hits simultaneously with vanilla space marine captains. Any BA player complaining about this should dry his eyes and get the chain axes out like we do.



The conclusions - GW doesn't hate BA, their performance at GW's own tournament at Warhammer World doesn't show them as weak if used competently and their time will come when their codex is 6th ed'd.

I've been over this. The Stormraven sucks as a transport. If you load troops and/or dreadnought into it, and roll a 1 or 2 for entry on turn 2, you are in deep trouble. And it will not destroy equal point values in Vendettas. Not even close. If you would like a demonstration of exactly why the Stormraven is mediocre, I'll borrow my friend's IG list and you can have my BA. After the 5th or 6th loss in a row, and after I have shot down your precious Stormraven(s) every game, maybe you'll get it.

BA exclusivity: paying more for units that do less. Awesome exclusivity there.

Boo hoo chaos space marines. The list that still has access to init 5 on their regular troopers, if I'm not mistaken. And noise marines that shoot better than my marines and have init 5 and FNP? Oh yeah, those chaos space marines. The BA took the nerf across the board. Oh wait, we pay 50 points for a crap IC and THEN take a nerf across the board. Wait a second, why fight when you can just have the helldrake hoover everything up for you? The Stormraven can't hold a candle to the helldrake in terms of ground support because of all the cover schemes in the game. Yes, I'm bitter. The Chaos Space Marines are better BA than the BA. We don't even have chain axes in our armory.

The BA are VERY weak when forced into a TAC sitution. Furthermore, success at a single GW tournament doesn't mean much. Was painting part of the score?

[Martel732]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The problem is that we're having two different conversations.

Look, if you could play your Eldar effectively by playing them as an enormous block of stompy infantry that rolled forwards, slowly chewing up everything in their path... would you say that the Eldar had a good codex? Or would you say that the Eldar had a weird and hopelessly outdated codex that forced them to rely on unflavorful options that most Eldar players don't want to buy enough of? Or what if the only way to make the Chaos Marines codex work was to play them just like regular marines and leave out of all the Chaos-y options, because they all sucked? You'd be annoyed. Even if there was a way to play your army that worked, you'd be annoyed.

We aren't just talking about how competitive the army is if you're willing to play to the one or so builds that still work. We're talking about how frustrating it is that you can't play a list that feels like a Blood Angels list ought to. And that is, I believe genuinely frustrating. The fact that I could buy two boxes of tacs, treat most of the special Blood Angels advantages as window-dressing, and win by playing the Blood Angels as "space marines, only red" is not comforting to nearly anyone who has bothered to spend a dram of money or time actually buying, converting, and painting an army of Blood Angels.

It's not even this good, though. If you try to use the BA the way you describe, you're still significantly outclassed by vanilla marines, Space Cheese, and Dark Angels. At the moment, the BA are duking it out with BT for worst marine chapter. Which is sad because BTs are 4th edition. And now that BTs get the Stormraven, I'm not even sure.

Now that the Tau dex dropped, I'd say BA are a bottom 3 list. That's putting them ahead of two of the three of: BT, Eldar, Sisters. I can't even necessarily guarantee that though, as Eldar have synergy with Dark Eldar, and everyone that the BA can ally with is better done with some other marine chapter.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's not even this good, though...

I agree, though that wasn't the point I was making. I was saying "we're having the wrong conversation." Additionally, I agree with you that the Blood Angels don't make excellent Space-Marines-but-red lists. Probably decent Space-Marines-but-red lists, in the hands of the right player, but not excellent.



1. BA do have exclusivity: Black Rage, Descent of Angels, Sang Priests, Fast vehicles, Baals, DS'ing LRs


• Black rage is useful, but it's only found on an incredibly expensive unit.
• Descent of Angels actually makes Deep Striking less reliable, since you can no longer predict scattering as well. With 2d6 scatter, you are most likely to scatter between 6 and 8 inches if you scatter at all. With 1d6 scatter, you are equally likely to scatter between 1 and 6 inches. A better advantage would have been rerolling the scatter die. Also, Descent of Angels is hard to take advantage of because assault marine-based lists are problematic. Assault marines don't win fights anymore, and we've lost the tactical advantage that came with null deployment.
• I won't argue with you about sanguinary priests. They're damned good.
• We pay for our vast vehicles, but it's also an advantage I'll own.
• Baals are good, and neat and flavorful, but I've never seen them make the difference. Assault cannons just aren't that good, and there are lots of ways to get them on the table.
• Don't make me laugh. I've never seen a table where I'd want to deep strike a land raider. I mean, deep striking some assault marines is one thing, but have you seen the footprint on that thing? And the total price, between the land raider itself and the dudes inside?



2. An AV12 flyer with transport, assault, AP1 missiles and a dreadnought stuck up its arse is good. If you concentrate your fire properly, and load it out even half correctly, you will destroy your opponent's Av12 air. It is actually, good.


I agree with you that the stormraven is good. However, it is no longer exclusively Blood Angels.



3. The nerf bat of furious charge affected my Berzerkers and Kharn. Kharn now hits simultaneously with vanilla space marine captains. Any BA player complaining about this should dry his eyes and get the chain axes out like we do.


Yep. No chain axes in our armories - those b@stard World Eaters must have run off with them.

[Denzark]

I've been over this. The Stormraven sucks as a transport. If you load troops and/or dreadnought into it, and roll a 1 or 2 for entry on turn 2, you are in deep trouble. And it will not destroy equal point values in Vendettas. Not even close. If you would like a demonstration of exactly why the Stormraven is mediocre, I'll borrow my friend's IG list and you can have my BA. After the 5th or 6th loss in a row, and after I have shot down your precious Stormraven(s) every game, maybe you'll get it.

BA exclusivity: paying more for units that do less. Awesome exclusivity there.

Boo hoo chaos space marines. The list that still has access to init 5 on their regular troopers, if I'm not mistaken. And noise marines that shoot better than my marines and have init 5 and FNP? Oh yeah, those chaos space marines. The BA took the nerf across the board. Oh wait, we pay 50 points for a crap IC and THEN take a nerf across the board. Wait a second, why fight when you can just have the helldrake hoover everything up for you? The Stormraven can't hold a candle to the helldrake in terms of ground support because of all the cover schemes in the game. Yes, I'm bitter. The Chaos Space Marines are better BA than the BA. We don't even have chain axes in our armory.

The BA are VERY weak when forced into a TAC sitution. Furthermore, success at a single GW tournament doesn't mean much. Was painting part of the score?


Let me consider some of your points.

The Storm Raven is not poor, the Vendetta is merely undercosted.

Anyone who spends Storm Raven style points without a cunning plan to near as guarantee its arrival turn 2, is asking for trouble.

You mention Noise Marines, they are more expensive than BA Troops, can't have jump packs, and (at work no codex so will need to confirm) the only way to get FNP is a banner costing 30 points - doesn't get you furious charge either which is what your 50 points does with a priest - including the priest himself.

The exclusivity of an item is not negated by the fact you pay more for an item than something faintly similar elsewhere. 'paying more for units that do less'? hat than codex counterparts? What counterpart does any of the units I mentioned in my last post actually have?

Sounds like until the arrival of the new codex doing what was done to the Blood Angels' Dark brethren, we need to fetch you a Waaaambulance.

[Denzark]

PS Martel the GW scoring does not require painting scores, although the winning players all win 5/5 and have best player votes. I guess if they are getting best player votes then the BA players (the army always shows highly in numbers and performance) have not only found a competitive build but are not being nobheads whilst smashing people into the ground.

[Martel732]

PS Martel the GW scoring does not require painting scores, although the winning players all win 5/5 and have best player votes. I guess if they are getting best player votes then the BA players (the army always shows highly in numbers and performance) have not only found a competitive build but are not being nobheads whilst smashing people into the ground.

They should come to my neck of the woods. While playing a TAC list. They can get THEIR headed pounded over and over.

I never said the Stormraven was poor. I said it was mediocre. And a poor transport, due to the insane risks involved.

I don't mind being a bottom codex so much as how GW gutted the ability of BA to live up to the fluff in any way. It also bothers me how people like you don't comprehend how bad the BA are now. Someone has to be on the bottom of the food chain, right?

"The Storm Raven is not poor, the Vendetta is merely undercosted. "

Until the Vendetta is fixed, it will dominate. That automatically busts all other fliers down a notch in utility. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but that's the case. If the Vendetta didn't exist, I'd say the Stormraven was "good". It can never be great, due to its insane point cost.

"Sounds like until the arrival of the new codex doing what was done to the Blood Angels' Dark brethren, we need to fetch you a Waaaambulance."

Perhaps, but its my only army. It's getting a bit painful. Thanks to GW pricing, I really can't afford allies at the moment. Although I'm not even sure what allies would fix this train wreck. If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to trade you for a few games. I'm not claiming that Chaos Marines are up with the Necrons or IG mind you, but they and the vanilla marines are substantially more potent than the BA.

[Martel732]

"I agree, though that wasn't the point I was making. I was saying "we're having the wrong conversation." Additionally, I agree with you that the Blood Angels don't make excellent Space-Marines-but-red lists. Probably decent Space-Marines-but-red lists, in the hands of the right player, but not excellent."

Pulling out all the stops and capping out at "decent" is terrible in a GW game. I don't know what builds these tournament winners are seeing, but I can guarantee its not the spam-fests I go up against. When other codicies spam units that are more efficient, it's a hard world. Hell, the Space Wolves can win 70% of their matchups against BA now by putting grey hunters on the board. It's even worse when the Space Wolves are bodyguards for IG.

[Defenestratus]

I can't understand people strife with shooting them down( except eldar, how you shoot down any flyer i will never know).

Damn, unimaginative we are.

Fuegan (or a FD exarch, but Fuegan works better for reasons I'm about to go into) attached to a harlequin squad on a quadgun behind an aegis line - with a farseer fortuning them.

2+ twl to hit, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor, ignores armor save, 2+ rerollable cover save with a 2+ armor save and FNP. The weak link is the actual quad gun. Also makes a nice "don't assault this aegis line" counter assault unit.

scatter laser war walkers, guided.

Fire dragons (of course you have to get up close)

Then of course, we have the BEST anti-flyer flyer in the game in the nightwing but for some strange reason nobody wants to count those.

------------

As for this whole "oh woe is me BA" mentality? I've indulged in it quite heavily myself - although I disagree about the stormraven sucking. (I also happen to disagree that the vendetta is undercosted dramatically... it is but not by as much as people think it is).

The worst hit that the BA took in my opinion was the lack of being able to play an all deepstrike list, and the lost of +1 I on FC.

That sealed the fate for me on my DoA list - still haven't figured out a way to reliably win assaults now. My ole standby unit, the 5 man vanguard squad that was supported from 6" away by a priest has pretty much disappeared since it can no longer kill before being killed - and overwatch... bloody overwatch has been the bane of me.

BA can still win - Its just not as easy as it was before.


Pulling out all the stops and capping out at "decent" is terrible in a GW game.

I think what you're problem is - is that you're too busy trying to figure out what the endgame, kill everything then go home and **** the prom queen unit is for your army. It seems that you play against a very competitive group of players. Stop.

You say things that completely baffle me... about how the storm raven was unfieldable in 5th edition. I fielded it all the time - it was great fun! Sometimes it worked great - sometimes it died in a fireball - it was still fun to use because I took great pride in fielding a beautiful model with a great paint scheme. Who the hell cares if it "made up its points"... Christ its a game not a sport - who really cares if you win or lose as long as you're having a good time.

I started taking lists that people just thought sucked - and they do. But they were models that I loved to play with and so I always left the shop satisfied that I played a great game with great models when I could have otherwise been spending time behind my desk at work.

Its all relative - and it seems that due to the people you play against, you can't have a good time playing with your toy soldiers. Maybe you need to ask all of these Plastic Toy Soldier Rommel's what kind of enjoyment do they get from purposely making the game miserable for the other person. I've made several people feel very awkward when I've asked that question to their face.

[Martel732]

Damn, unimaginative we are.

Fuegan (or a FD exarch, but Fuegan works better for reasons I'm about to go into) attached to a harlequin squad on a quadgun behind an aegis line - with a farseer fortuning them.

2+ twl to hit, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor, ignores armor save, 2+ rerollable cover save with a 2+ armor save and FNP. The weak link is the actual quad gun. Also makes a nice "don't assault this aegis line" counter assault unit.

scatter laser war walkers, guided.

Fire dragons (of course you have to get up close)

Then of course, we have the BEST anti-flyer flyer in the game in the nightwing but for some strange reason nobody wants to count those.

------------

As for this whole "oh woe is me BA" mentality? I've indulged in it quite heavily myself - although I disagree about the stormraven sucking. (I also happen to disagree that the vendetta is undercosted dramatically... it is but not by as much as people think it is).

The worst hit that the BA took in my opinion was the lack of being able to play an all deepstrike list, and the lost of +1 I on FC.

That sealed the fate for me on my DoA list - still haven't figured out a way to reliably win assaults now. My ole standby unit, the 5 man vanguard squad that was supported from 6" away by a priest has pretty much disappeared since it can no longer kill before being killed - and overwatch... bloody overwatch has been the bane of me.

BA can still win - Its just not as easy as it was before.



I think what you're problem is - is that you're too busy trying to figure out what the endgame, kill everything then go home and **** the prom queen unit is for your army. It seems that you play against a very competitive group of players. Stop.

You say things that completely baffle me... about how the storm raven was unfieldable in 5th edition. I fielded it all the time - it was great fun! Sometimes it worked great - sometimes it died in a fireball - it was still fun to use because I took great pride in fielding a beautiful model with a great paint scheme. Who the hell cares if it "made up its points"... Christ its a game not a sport - who really cares if you win or lose as long as you're having a good time.

I started taking lists that people just thought sucked - and they do. But they were models that I loved to play with and so I always left the shop satisfied that I played a great game with great models when I could have otherwise been spending time behind my desk at work.

Its all relative - and it seems that due to the people you play against, you can't have a good time playing with your toy soldiers. Maybe you need to ask all of these Plastic Toy Soldier Rommel's what kind of enjoyment do they get from purposely making the game miserable for the other person. I've made several people feel very awkward when I've asked that question to their face.

It's true that my playgroup has a tendency to field the nastiest stuff they can come up with. Many people have worked Vendettas into every list possible that can ally with IG. This is great for GW kit sales, but not so great for many of the players.

It's also possible that I've gotten spoiled by the competitive nature of something like Starcraft, which strives for balance and fun competitive play.

I said that about the Stormraven because AV 12 skimmer for that price was far too fragile in my play group. It's turning out that in 6th it's still to fragile to be called more than mediocre. It's not fun to pay lots of in-game points for cool models and then just have them almost trivially vaporized. That's really the theme of the BA codex in 6th: cool models that get vaporized by more efficient models in other lists. They may look cool, but they are going back in the carrying bag pretty quickly. :)

[Tynskel]

Damn, unimaginative we are.

Fuegan (or a FD exarch, but Fuegan works better for reasons I'm about to go into) attached to a harlequin squad on a quadgun behind an aegis line - with a farseer fortuning them.

2+ twl to hit, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor, ignores armor save, 2+ rerollable cover save with a 2+ armor save and FNP. The weak link is the actual quad gun. Also makes a nice "don't assault this aegis line" counter assault unit.

scatter laser war walkers, guided.

Fire dragons (of course you have to get up close)

Then of course, we have the BEST anti-flyer flyer in the game in the nightwing but for some strange reason nobody wants to count those.

------------

As for this whole "oh woe is me BA" mentality? I've indulged in it quite heavily myself - although I disagree about the stormraven sucking. (I also happen to disagree that the vendetta is undercosted dramatically... it is but not by as much as people think it is).

The worst hit that the BA took in my opinion was the lack of being able to play an all deepstrike list, and the lost of +1 I on FC.

That sealed the fate for me on my DoA list - still haven't figured out a way to reliably win assaults now. My ole standby unit, the 5 man vanguard squad that was supported from 6" away by a priest has pretty much disappeared since it can no longer kill before being killed - and overwatch... bloody overwatch has been the bane of me.

BA can still win - Its just not as easy as it was before.



I think what you're problem is - is that you're too busy trying to figure out what the endgame, kill everything then go home and **** the prom queen unit is for your army. It seems that you play against a very competitive group of players. Stop.

You say things that completely baffle me... about how the storm raven was unfieldable in 5th edition. I fielded it all the time - it was great fun! Sometimes it worked great - sometimes it died in a fireball - it was still fun to use because I took great pride in fielding a beautiful model with a great paint scheme. Who the hell cares if it "made up its points"... Christ its a game not a sport - who really cares if you win or lose as long as you're having a good time.

I started taking lists that people just thought sucked - and they do. But they were models that I loved to play with and so I always left the shop satisfied that I played a great game with great models when I could have otherwise been spending time behind my desk at work.

Its all relative - and it seems that due to the people you play against, you can't have a good time playing with your toy soldiers. Maybe you need to ask all of these Plastic Toy Soldier Rommel's what kind of enjoyment do they get from purposely making the game miserable for the other person. I've made several people feel very awkward when I've asked that question to their face.

I think someone has captured my sentiment.

[Brass Scorpion]

Ok, so not only have we seen the changes to Furious Charge that stole the thunder of most BA lists but now the Angels (and Knights) have suffered the indignity Calgar and his boys borrowing their ride without asking.
This perhaps I could have taken on its own..............however I've just discovered that the FAQ's have been updated................
Apparently the Stormraven no longer uses 'skies of blood' the name having been replaced by the more universal 'skies of fury' and also there is a note to remove Deep Strike from the list of its special rules.
I'm starting to think that these official updates to codex are the worst idea since Greedo shooting first.
This trend has seen a lot of my friends moving on to other gaming systems........and I must admit I'm very tempted myself....... This is neither news nor rumor, it's a general discussion about rules changes. How did this survive so long in the News and Rumors section?! Can I get a MODERATOR here?

[Demonus]

Its all relative - and it seems that due to the people you play against, you can't have a good time playing with your toy soldiers. Maybe you need to ask all of these Plastic Toy Soldier Rommel's what kind of enjoyment do they get from purposely making the game miserable for the other person. I've made several people feel very awkward when I've asked that question to their face.

*clap*

As a Space Wolf player, I have to agree with an earlier poster, if you arent spamming LongFangs, your army is far from OP as many feel. Ive played against BA many times and have often felt they were one of the top codexes (codicies) out there. I often destroy IG and havent faced Necrons except their old codex in 5th, and often find myself struggling with the multiple fast tanks, great HQs, and combos people come up with.

While they may not be the top tier of the current 40k universe, I definitely wouldnt call them the bottom.

[Denzark]

Actually Martel I feel for you - I can sympathise when someone feels their army is nerfed. None of what you are saying seems to me like 4th/5th not being able to take bloodletters with my Chaos Codex. But it does suck for sure. I guess I am amazed because everytime I have played BA (my main opponents) they show well, with honours at least even if not skewed in their favour. So I sympathise but can't empathise, nay?

[Martel732]

Actually Martel I feel for you - I can sympathise when someone feels their army is nerfed. None of what you are saying seems to me like 4th/5th not being able to take bloodletters with my Chaos Codex. But it does suck for sure. I guess I am amazed because everytime I have played BA (my main opponents) they show well, with honours at least even if not skewed in their favour. So I sympathise but can't empathise, nay?

It's also possible that since BA are popular where I play, everyone who is any good has figured out exactly where they are weak in 6th and just exploit it over and over. I have demonstrated how important this is by trading armies with people and crushing the BA almost trivially with IG, Space Wolves, and Orks. There was no point in any of these games where it looked like the BA were going to win. Of course, maybe they are not as good with my BA as I was with their armies, but I can tell you I knew exactly what to do to each unit to minimize its impact. Probably the most shocking thing is how much more *stuff* other people put on the field than the BA. In 6th, you will take losses, and the BA really can't afford any because their initial shooting throw weight is weak to begin with. Losses cascade quickly with the BA until they can't threaten any decent list. Note *decent list*. Anyone can take a BA list that is competent and steamroll bad lists. Being the bottom in 40K is like being the bottom in baseball: people still have to respect you for your 40% win rate.

Having a Stormraven just amplifies this issue as you have at least 10% of your list in reserves. I can also tell you that each time I traded armies, everyone was shocked at just how little the Stormraven actually helped them win. I tried to explain that its really a hedge against helldrakes and a few other annoying fliers. Obviously, with the IG guy, I had all 4 of his Vendettas in my list because I'm not a jellohead. They just obliterated the stormraven as soon as it showed up, and the Vendettas actually spent most of the battle in hover mode, because the particular BA list he constructed sucked at shooting. It was pretty sick all around. I love the sacrificial units of the IG that set up horrid kills zones the turn after. It's actually an advantage to have your guys just die on the assault turn. I was looking in the rules to see if I even had to fight back, because I just wanted the assaulted squad to die, so I could shoot more.

The long and short of it is, I found it pretty easy to rope-a-dope BA units because their durability/pt is kinda terrible.

I also want to reiterate that I don't think this was intentional by GW. I think it's just a case of a bunch of small changes had really weird effects on the way the BA operate. And, for most people, they don't really understand until I put the army in their hands and realize all the stuff they *can't* do or buy. Like Ork guy I traded with was putting all kinds of gear on his HQ that just doesn't exist in the BA codex, but the Vanilla marines get. He was just going from memory from his vanilla marines. He ended up agreeing that BA HQs are basically horrid. The BA are supposed to be other HTH chapter, but can't hold the Space Wolves' jock straps.

[Tynskel]

sounds more like the person didn't know how to construct lists. IG is all about the sacrificial lambs so the Hammer of the Emperor can keep landing.

[Galadren]

I keep seeing the title of this thread when I look at the Rumors page (and the fact that it keeps getting more posts) and it never stops making me laugh.

Comedy gold, man.