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zanzibarthefirst
10-27-2009, 08:09 PM
How successful can a guard army be based on CC. At the moment I'm looking at using a high number of priests and commissars, along with Straken and possibly an imperial assassin.

Other than rough riders and orgyns, what things woudl be need to make such an army either fun to play or competive, or both if possible

Kaney
10-27-2009, 09:01 PM
From a competitive stand point IG can be ok at defensive CC. Large mixed infantry squads with power weps and commisars, backed by stracken goodness. Rough riders are ok but it will take alot of work to get the most out of them. Ogryns are simply to expensive.

Aggresive CC guard does not work. Sorry dude.

Silver
10-27-2009, 09:29 PM
hi, interesting concept.

i think chimeras will help a lot, they can be used to funnel the enemy into sizable chunks to be assaulted. you may need to soften the enemy up with short-range assault weapons before the charge though

think about giving the rough riders a melta bomb sergeant, giving a 18" threat bubble that you can target stationary tanks with.

also, use power fists instead of power weapons, theyre going to do a lot more damage, especially if theyre wounding on 2s as opposed to 5s (T4). and counter assault from straken means 2 attacks.
then again, power weapons on the charge with straken will give a strength 4 hit, not bad with 3 attacks

only concern is dedicated assault troops, which you will need to counter-assault with rough riders

definitely with the assasin though IMO, any temple will greatly increase the effectiveness of this army
vindicare - take out power weapons/flamers in opponents army
callidus - 'a word in your ear' puts enemy in disarray, reducing their heavy firepower to kill your troops initially
culexus - commissars combat 'soulless', and pull down opponents LD so enemy falls back after an assault (does stubborn nullify soulless???)
eversor - crazy good in this case, either as a counter attack, or you can use rough riders to bolster his assault

- Silver

RocketRollRebel
10-28-2009, 12:53 AM
Its a fun concept but I wouldn't expect it to be tournament wining. We just arnt built for that kinda fighting and more often than not those pts put into bumping up CC could be better spent on guns.

Okay now for my less douchey and more constructive comments :p You are on the right track with commissars, Priests, Ogryn, and rough Riders. No one wants to get stuck on a blob of 30-50 stubborn guardsmen and then be hit by Ogryn or Rough Riders. I'd recommend sprinkling power weapons in on the sgts and the attached commissar as well. Also Straken is almost essential to any CC style IG list.

Confuddled
10-28-2009, 02:34 AM
Ogryns, Straken and Rough Riders make great counter-assault elements.
A Commissar Lord can really help keep the Ogryns in the fight.

Once you start messing around with infantry squads, however, it gets tricky.

They make for amazing tarpits, and in theory, a large squad can dish out a ridiculous number of attacks.


1) The biggest obstacle, however, is one of geometry.

a) Trying to bring all those attacks to bear can be challenging, especially when it comes to the embedded power weapons – it’s a lot easier bringing 20,30,40 Guardsmen within rapid-fire range of a target unit that it is to get them within 3” of an enemy model…

b) Same thing applies to getting all those embedded power weapons into the combat zone.

c) There’s also the problem of clearing enough space for the Ogryns and/or Rough Riders to charge in.

You can help alleviate the problem somewhat by spreading out your deploying, but between Defenders React and post-combat pile in moves, when you’ve got 20+ Guardsmen left alive in the squad, there’s a very good chance that the target unit will be completely surrounded by regular grunt troopers…



2) Second biggest problem with an assault-oriented Guard army? Complete lack of S8+ attacks once you do get it stuck in.

S4-S6 can help, as can sheer volume of attacks, but its just embarrassing when an assault-oriented army (so-called) can find itself completely locked down by things like Ironclads and Wraithlords…

Confuddled
10-28-2009, 03:21 AM
On further reflection, it might be entertaining having 20 or so Ogryns charging straight down the middle of the table, dragging a Commissar Lord along kicking and screaming.

10 charging Ogryns were a heck of a distraction for the opposition, drew silly amounts of fire and ended up having a grand old time before they got hammered apart. I imagine 16-20 Ogryns might be even more distracting…:)

In the meantime, the usual mainstays of the Guard army (autocannons, multi-lasers and melta-toting Veterans) can concentrate on cracking open all those pesky tin cans so the Ogryns can get at the chewy contents…

Chumbalaya
10-28-2009, 06:31 AM
CC Guard can totally work, nobody will see it coming :P

Take Straken, mobs of Guardsmen (meltas, melta bombs, power weapons everywhere) led by Commissars and Priests, the requisite fire support (HWS, Vets in Valks/Vends/Chims, Russes, etc) and maybe some allied GKs for a little extra punch. RR and Ogryns kinda suck, so don't bother.

zanzibarthefirst
10-28-2009, 09:37 AM
I wodul ahve thought that Orgyns and RR would ahve made good counter attack unuits, especially RR since their speed allows them to have a much greater threat range.

At the moment my army is goign to be 3 different armies; my CC catachans, my melta veterans for Elysia and some grey knights.

Chumbalaya
10-28-2009, 10:41 AM
Problem with Ogryns is cost and general suckitude. Sure they can take it, but they cost an arm and a leg for basic attacks. Rough Riders are a one hit wonder that doesn't even do that well enough.

RocketRollRebel
10-28-2009, 10:46 AM
Problem with Ogryns is cost and general suckitude. Sure they can take it, but they cost an arm and a leg for basic attacks. Rough Riders are a one hit wonder that doesn't even do that well enough.

I agree. I'd take Ogyrn maybe in a CC list but they do tend to take a dare I say... Ogryn-sized bite out of your points and dont seem to have much in terms of killing power vs MEQ units.

Just_Me
10-28-2009, 11:24 AM
Don’t forget Creed; For the Honour of Cadia! Is just tailor made for giving an assault some teeth.

Dazz
10-28-2009, 11:28 AM
a Guard Close Combat army can and does work. There are several key units you need to use though to have it happen. Also remember than even a CC army shoots so don't forget the guns all together.

HQ - A Lord Commissar is a great unit, however slightly costly. IMO I like to take a Sister with that lovely book as a spare HQ choice and stick her in my biggest unit. The ability to test on unmodified leadership 10 is very handy. Even more so if you run her behind two larger mobs allowing them both to use her rule. She may not be a CC beast herself but the staying of units in CC is a must.

Obviously Straken is the other must have CC unit. Beefed out with two bodyguards and a Master of the Fleet and however you like the 4 members equipped is a great Counter Attack unit. Keep them mobile in a Chimera to get to any threat and be able to use the rules better.

Elite - Personally I would take a Psyker Battle Squad and two units of ratlings. Sure they are not at all Close Combat orientated, but being able to freeze enemy units in place and even allow you to get the charge is more important than one may think. These units are very important support for a CC army.

Troops - Obviously big squads are a must here. For each squad I like 30 men, 3 Power Weapons and 3 Flamers. Cheap in comparison and able to do a lot of damage for 1-2 of these use the above mentioned Cannoness and for any others(at least 4 total)use Commissars with another Power Weapon.

While some people will love Veterans with 3 flamers, they are simply to costly and not reliable enough to be an effect point in a CC army IMO.

Fast Attack - A unit of 10 Rough Riders, with 8 Hunting Lances, 2 Meltaguns and Meltabombs. This squad MUST be held behind your line in cover until the battle begins. Then get them as close as possible and kill off the biggest meanest unit around. After this they should be used to hunt tanks and transports for kill points and general annoyance.

The rest of your fast attack should be used on Armoured Sentinals with Heavy Flamers. AV 12 and the flamer will keep most basic infantry units tied up for the entire game and will allow you to deal with them at your own lesuire. Of course they may be taken out by a hidden power fist so be careful. I think 2 squads of 2 works best.

Heavy Support - Griffons IMO are the best. Cheap and plentiful means they will not hurt you on points and will be able to target most enemy formations well. Combined with pinning(I think.....)means that they could work well with your elites.

zanzibarthefirst
10-28-2009, 12:22 PM
As a rule of thumb i'm not keen on Creed. For the Honour of 'Catachan' can help units outside of the 12" Cold Steel and Courage bubble but would it really be worth it. One major special character is probably enough.

@Dazz. Is there any role for heavy weapons team. THe outline that you provided is verygood although i think it is aimed mainly at countering hordes, lots of flamers, mortars etc... Would lascannon teams be worth it for a couple of pop shots at tanks.

Chumbalaya
10-28-2009, 01:11 PM
Best way to nail tanks is autocannons, S10 ordnance and meltas. Autocannon HWS are cheap, shooty, and come with your platoons (Vendettas and Hydras work well too), while lascannons end up too pricey and ineffective. To get meltas use DS-ing Stormies, Vets in transports, Devil Dogs/Hellhound/Bane Wolves, and your infantry mobs.

zanzibarthefirst
10-28-2009, 01:20 PM
Is it possible to run this list in a small game? I've jsut built a list including the psker squads, rought riders, medusas etc... and its came to just under 2190, 1970 if i drop the grand master and psycannon.

ninja skills
10-28-2009, 04:46 PM
I think rough riders can be very useful, if you hold them in reserve and get the charge with some furious charge from straken you get S6 I6 power wepons which can be very masty indeed. if you take two smaller squads they can genrally cripple things but you don't mind them dieing as they have done thier job and they're cheep

AirHorse
10-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Penal legion squads can add some spice to guard cc, especially if you have creed on the table too. You can get some decent weapon shots off before a charge, or even have furious charge combined with bonus attacks and rending.

Also a primaris psyker could pull a fast one on a multiwound model that is vulnerable to instant death and is weilding a slow weapon. To be honest you could pull it off against anything I4 or below with furious charge from creed.

edit: I also forgot to mention, both of these choices still have their ranged weapons, that is the benefit to guard cc I guess, you might not be brilliant, but you still have your lasguns and some tanks to blast away with(unless you really are dumb ;P)

zanzibarthefirst
10-28-2009, 05:08 PM
In small battles i doubt that you wil have the luxury of an additional HQ and elites, so you coudl consider them nice extras that make your life a bit easier.

The most imponrtant bits IMO would be
Straken which would be around 280pts once you add in a chimera, Master of the fleet etc...
Combined Squads with commissars around 110pts per 10 men. So a platoon comand squad and a 30 man combined squad would be about 500pts. 2 of these and thats quite a hefty chuck.
Rough Riders around 130pts

All this comes to about 1500pts depending on what extras you want.

Dazz
10-28-2009, 05:35 PM
Well I focussed on Hordes because in all honesty Elite armies die even faster and easier. Sure a 3+ save might look nice but 75 attacks change that quickly.

As to the size, An allied Cannoness is like 50 points with the book and 60 with an extra Power Weapon, really any list can get that in I think. Grey Knights and a Grand Master is much different and IMO not a sound choice for an effective guard army. Although they do pack a punch rarely seen by the IG.

Heavy Weapon Squads are ok. They are exspensive and die easily. I know that they can be effective but vehicles can be destroyed by Meltas and Meltabombs which IMO are more reliable and effective.

For smaller games you need on whats important and cut where you can. Straken? Maybe just go uber cheap command squad tooled for combat for now. 10 Rough Riders? Maybe 5 and Meltabombs instead.4 30 man Squads with 9 Flamers and 3 Meltas, 2 Commissars with Power Weapons and a Cannoness is only 825 Points and has plenty of punch and a lot of room for expansion.

zanzibarthefirst
10-28-2009, 05:49 PM
Isnt it Straken that makes a CC army? Maybe a priest or two ahd help give it a CC edge. How would you equip an uber cheap compnay command squad, just go for the plasma pillbox?
I dont have my witchhunters codex so i wasn't sure how expensive they were.

The problem i'm seeing is that orks can probably do this a lot better, thats why i think it is imponrtant to have armour. 120 Orks and a few powerclaw nobs would be aorudn the same as the 4 30man squads with characters. I think it woudl be better to sacrifce maybe one of those 30man squads in favour of a few senitnals or griffons. Horde Orks vs horde IG would be quite epic

Sam
10-29-2009, 01:34 AM
From a competitive stand point IG can be ok at defensive CC. Large mixed infantry squads with power weps and commisars, backed by stracken goodness. Rough riders are ok but it will take alot of work to get the most out of them. Ogryns are simply to expensive.

Aggresive CC guard does not work. Sorry dude.

I've had a fair amount of success with aggressive CC guard. I take two platoons maxed out on infantry squads, each with a commissar. I give every sergeant and commissar a power weapon, and I give all the sergeants meltabombs. I then run both squads at whatever happens to be in front of me, with a command squad consisting of Straken, Kell, two bodyguards, a medic and two veterans (note that there is no majority weapon skill, the enemy is now fighting ws 5), along with Yarrick for those nifty re-rolls to hit (plus he's awesome and adds more str 6 attacks that ignore armor to the squads, in a chimera rolling up the middle.

Here's how it goes down:
1. I get the charge, and now have 24 initiative 4 str 4 power weapon attacks, plus a ton of non-power weapon attacks. I either win combat through brute force, or lose slightly, doesn't matter.

2. I get charged. Not so good, now it is 24 initiative 3 str 3 power weapon attacks. I probably lose combat, and again, it doesn't matter.

After 1 or 2 has occurred, the squad most likely proceeds to lose combat every turn until there are no more enemies left in that squad, at which point I head off to tarpit another squad to death. Bear in mind I back this up with a leman russ battle tank, a hellhound, a vendetta gunship, and a 10 man storm trooper squad with 2 meltas. And Marbo, of course.

So basically I do exactly what you said for defensive IG, except I don't play it defensively.

Lerra
10-29-2009, 01:57 AM
I have nightmares about the 46-man stubborn guardsman squad with 6-7 power weapons. Not only is that squad ridiculously hard to shift because of stubborn and the high number of wounds, it will beat nearly any single unit in close-combat because of the huge numbers of models. You won't be able to get all of your guardsmen in to attack, usually, but as long as you get the power weapons in range you should be fine against even dedicated CC units. I once watched a horde tyranid player charge 3 gaunt squads at this monster guard unit and lose combat handily. I have seen this squad eat through terminators like candy. *shudders*

"Wait, that big squad is how many kill points? One? Fsdk it!"

zanzibarthefirst
10-29-2009, 03:13 AM
I've had a fair amount of success with aggressive CC guard. I take two platoons maxed out on infantry squads, each with a commissar. I give every sergeant and commissar a power weapon, and I give all the sergeants meltabombs. I then run both squads at whatever happens to be in front of me, with a command squad consisting of Straken, Kell, two bodyguards, a medic and two veterans (note that there is no majority weapon skill, the enemy is now fighting ws 5), along with Yarrick for those nifty re-rolls to hit (plus he's awesome and adds more str 6 attacks that ignore armor to the squads, in a chimera rolling up the middle.

Here's how it goes down:
1. I get the charge, and now have 24 initiative 4 str 4 power weapon attacks, plus a ton of non-power weapon attacks. I either win combat through brute force, or lose slightly, doesn't matter.

2. I get charged. Not so good, now it is 24 initiative 3 str 3 power weapon attacks. I probably lose combat, and again, it doesn't matter.

After 1 or 2 has occurred, the squad most likely proceeds to lose combat every turn until there are no more enemies left in that squad, at which point I head off to tarpit another squad to death. Bear in mind I back this up with a leman russ battle tank, a hellhound, a vendetta gunship, and a 10 man storm trooper squad with 2 meltas. And Marbo, of course.

So basically I do exactly what you said for defensive IG, except I don't play it defensively.

That sounds like an apoc force. Having Straken, Kell, Yarrick and Marbo seems to be a lot of points. All you are missing is Nork :D

Given that most of the points are goign into the infantrya Vendetta with a demolitions squad are going to be quite valuable. You dont really want your tarpit units charging tanks and hpoing that a single meltabomb is going to save the day

Purple
10-29-2009, 05:00 AM
CC is a stupid idea. Any static army can cut them down before they get into combat and mechs are just too mobile. IG should shoot and thats it. If you are assaulting it means you aren't rapid firing

Kahoolin
10-29-2009, 05:13 AM
CC is a stupid idea. Any static army can cut them down before they get into combat and mechs are just too mobile. IG should shoot and thats it. If you are assaulting it means you aren't rapid firingWell, that's certainly one easy, traditional (boring) way to play the guard. Obviously the person who started the thread wanted advice for trying something a bit different.

I think the responses here so far show that a cc guard army is not a "stupid idea".

zanzibarthefirst
10-29-2009, 05:22 AM
Well, that's certainly one easy, traditional (boring) way to play the guard. Obviously the person who started the thread wanted advice for trying something a bit different.


I certainly didnt want a cheap army thats for sure. if I wanted a cheap horde I woudl ahve went for Orks...wait I already have :rolleyes:

I'm not sure whether I want to fully commit to a crazy CC army I think a strong counter-attack element can work just as well as certain units can act as a deterrent. Would you seriously want to get to close to Straken? I think it will also depend on points. As the ponts increase, the more CC orientated it gets and the crazier it gets.

Sam
10-29-2009, 11:26 PM
That sounds like an apoc force. Having Straken, Kell, Yarrick and Marbo seems to be a lot of points. All you are missing is Nork :D

Given that most of the points are goign into the infantrya Vendetta with a demolitions squad are going to be quite valuable. You dont really want your tarpit units charging tanks and hpoing that a single meltabomb is going to save the day

To be fair, it's five meltabombs, not one. And I added them when I realised all my opponent had to do was send in a walker and I'm stuck. A tarpit that gets tarpitted itself by one model isn't very helpful, so I stuck the meltabombs in, just in case.

Also, I was only going off what I could remember from that list, and I came out 25pts higher than I should have, so I have to fiddle with it a bit, but the same basic list is the same. I don't usually charge tanks with the big squads, that's what the vendetta/stormtroopers/leman russ is for.

Edit: I found the problem, my list did not include Marbo, and it was a devil dog, not a hellhound, and I had some upgrades on the chimera and devil dog

Note: This was a 2k list that I was running, so I had plenty of room for all the goodies.

Sam
10-29-2009, 11:42 PM
CC is a stupid idea. Any static army can cut them down before they get into combat and mechs are just too mobile. IG should shoot and thats it. If you are assaulting it means you aren't rapid firing

I have never, ever, had anyone manage to do enough damage to my 50 man squads to stop me from swarming them down. Also, the trick is to still have ranged anti-tank, if your opponent is mech then you pop the transports and make them footslog.

As for thinking the IG should shoot and nothing else, that is exactly why I set up a CC based list. No one expects IG to be good in CC. But IG's strength in CC is the same strength they have in shooting: numbers.

Also note, my CC list was not intended to be overly competitive, it was intended to by fun to play and to fit the fluff I had come up with for my regiment.

Also, it depends on the unit in question whether you should shoot it or assault it with CC IG. Genestealers: shoot, no question. Ork boyz: assault, you won't do enough damage to counter the bonuses they get from the charge, so you meet them on your own terms, you go before them and wound them on 4+ instead of going at the same time and wounding on a 5+.

Purple
10-30-2009, 08:09 AM
If your running 50 man squads then i doubt you'd have time to whittle them down but you still ahve the problem of getting the charge. Most CC horde armies are fast then you, tyranids have fleet, some are beasts etc... Orks have a possible waagh and even Eldar and striking scorpions have a tacticla advantage in their deployment. problem is you unlikely to get them into rapid fire range never mind assault. FRFSRF at 12"-24" with a 50 man squad will porbably be you best bet but then its not really going towards a CC army if one fo the most effective means of dealing with hordes is via shooting.

I think a fully dedicated CC army will work against MEQs no doubt, no different to how effective horde orks are against MEQs are but im just doubting its CC pedigee against hordes. Against them its probably best to shoot them.

zanzibarthefirst
10-30-2009, 09:13 AM
I think a fully dedicated CC army will work against MEQs no doubt, no different to how effective horde orks are against MEQs are but im just doubting its CC pedigee against hordes. Against them its probably best to shoot them.

its a good job that just about all the armies i face are MEQs although at the moment im in the middle of building a standard guard army for my friend

Ivarr
10-30-2009, 10:08 AM
its a good job that just about all the armies i face are MEQs although at the moment im in the middle of building a standard guard army for my friend

I wish one of my friends would build a guard army for me.:mad::rolleyes::D

zanzibarthefirst
10-30-2009, 05:07 PM
he's paying for the models. I'll im doing is converting and painting them. Saying that, ishoudlnt really gear his army towards killing mass infantry

Sam
10-30-2009, 08:35 PM
If your running 50 man squads then i doubt you'd have time to whittle them down but you still ahve the problem of getting the charge. Most CC horde armies are fast then you, tyranids have fleet, some are beasts etc... Orks have a possible waagh and even Eldar and striking scorpions have a tacticla advantage in their deployment. problem is you unlikely to get them into rapid fire range never mind assault. FRFSRF at 12"-24" with a 50 man squad will porbably be you best bet but then its not really going towards a CC army if one fo the most effective means of dealing with hordes is via shooting.

I think a fully dedicated CC army will work against MEQs no doubt, no different to how effective horde orks are against MEQs are but im just doubting its CC pedigee against hordes. Against them its probably best to shoot them.

I've had one 50man squad take a charge from about half of a tyranid army and still come out on top. The only thing they didn't kill on their own was a godfex, and Straken 'n' crew took care of that. As for the scorpions, they barely even put up a fight against that many power weapons.

In all fairness, I'm the only player in my group that plays orks, so I've never run into them. Mathhammer dictates I take a hell of a beating from a boyz mob if they get the charge, but if I get the charge it's an absolute slaughter, most of the ork mob should die before they even get to attack.

Also, it should be noted that my CC army is not subtle in anyway. It's designed to be a sledge hammer force that simply crashes head on into the foe in a bloody, half-drunk frenzy.

Aldramelech
10-31-2009, 10:17 AM
I play Orks all the time and when they get into contact with you its all over, might as well pack up and go home!

Denzark
11-01-2009, 09:40 AM
Take DKoK roughriders. these work like the pre-nerf roughriders - as soon as lance is gone, draw swords and pistols - so still 3 attacks on the charge. And a command squad on horse is available. The most i have used was 20 roughriders in extended line. The amount of fire someone will put down to avoid that charge - it is psychological.

I think they work.

zanzibarthefirst
11-01-2009, 02:49 PM
I play Orks all the time and when they get into contact with you its all over, might as well pack up and go home!

amen to that. Imagine if Orks had squads of 50

Purple
11-02-2009, 06:51 PM
one of the things with guard is target saturation. provide the opponent with a laod of threats and they get a bit confused. 2 50 man units are big and difficult to move around and prone to getting flanked. Would it not be better if you had slightly smaller units, say 3 units of 30 rather than 2 50 man. The 50pts left over could put a flamer in each squad or pay for another commissar.

Would a 50 man squad absolutely slaughter a 30 boy squad even if it got the charge. Boyz have more attacks assuming they are sluggaz. The 50man squad woudl get an extra 10 attacks and Orks do have weaker armour but i doubt it owuld be a slaughter, the Orks would still be sticking around. SO a 180pt unit could more than handle itself against a 250pt unit

Aldramelech
11-03-2009, 01:36 AM
I don't think a normal Guard squad, regardless of size can survive CC with Orks, not in my experience.

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 09:24 AM
I don't think a normal Guard squad, regardless of size can survive CC with Orks, not in my experience.

If this is the case, is it best to be able to quickly change your gameplay from CC to shootyt without changing your list, or adding a few minor elements?

Majorcrash
11-03-2009, 10:45 AM
use squad with special wpn to trim down your target, add commisars and dont forget the psychers. It all about numbers and a combined squad of thirty model is daunting especially if a commissar lord is around or psycher. For chesse factor arco falgellants are a rude suprise, and it gives you a Independent priest as well. But they tend to only work once.

Aldramelech
11-03-2009, 11:00 AM
I think pinning is the key. Pin them and then blast the crap out of them. Unfortunately this does not make for terribly interesting games.

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 11:08 AM
use squad with special wpn to trim down your target, add commisars and dont forget the psychers. It all about numbers and a combined squad of thirty model is daunting especially if a commissar lord is around or psycher. For chesse factor arco falgellants are a rude suprise, and it gives you a Independent priest as well. But they tend to only work once.

to take the arco-flagellants you need to either use the WH codex and induce the CC guard. (not sure if WH and DH have been FAQed concerned guard platoons and the like) or you take a priest, inquistor guard and then arco-flagellants.

Sam
11-03-2009, 03:43 PM
Penal legion squads can add some spice to guard cc, especially if you have creed on the table too. You can get some decent weapon shots off before a charge, or even have furious charge combined with bonus attacks and rending.

Also a primaris psyker could pull a fast one on a multiwound model that is vulnerable to instant death and is weilding a slow weapon. To be honest you could pull it off against anything I4 or below with furious charge from creed.

edit: I also forgot to mention, both of these choices still have their ranged weapons, that is the benefit to guard cc I guess, you might not be brilliant, but you still have your lasguns and some tanks to blast away with(unless you really are dumb ;P)

Penal legion squads suck for the following reasons:

1. They have no grenades, which is not good for an assault unit, though typically this will only matter if you have furious charge.

2. They only have a 33% chance of being able to shoot before assaulting.

3. They cost 8pts a piece, are only questionably better in assault and no more durable than standard guardsmen.

4. They are only available in 10man squads, all with 5+ saves at t3, making them an easy kill point.

5. They have no option to take special weapons to improve their ranged abilities.

6. They have no option to take a power weapon, and only have a 33% chance to have a 17% chance to ignore armor saves, after having only a 50% chance to hit anyway.

Also, they can either have furious charge or rending and two CCWs, not both at the same time.

The primaris psyker is a great unit, but I wouldn't count on him too much in assault, particularly against anything you would want to use your force weapon against.

Sam
11-03-2009, 03:51 PM
I don't think a normal Guard squad, regardless of size can survive CC with Orks, not in my experience.

If Straken is close by this is really only true if the orks get the charge. Both sides have furious charge, but if the IG gets the charge they go before the orks, which severely cuts down on the orks ability to retaliate.

Note: This is assuming an IG squad of 30 or larger, including a commissar and power weapons on the commissar and the 3 sergeants. With a 51 man squad no matter who gets the charge the orks end up dead, but considering the point discrepancy the IG still comes up second best in that fight. Its all about the charge.

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Its all about the charge.

And because of that, IG are at a disadvantage. Orks have the possibilty of a fleet move before they charge and the inclusion of a weird boy makes that even more likely However this is where the most imponrtant element of the IG comes into play: the IG is a modular army, no regiment shoudl be able to everything and must work with other elelments to maximise efficency i.e. Cadians are good with tanks but Elysians are better at providing air support. Combined they are more effective. this applies to any army. A pure CC army is not the most effient way to do it, thats why you need another element to support it, be it armour, artillery etc...

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 05:06 PM
I'd jsut liek to add a comment about a penal legion, though not the best of units being overcosted, underpowered etc... could they serve as a distraction unit. Their ability to outflank means that the opponent will have todivert attention away from the giant squads of guardsmen swarming forwards. Having said that, i'd rather take a squad of rough riders to provide a more reliable counter-attack element

Purple
11-03-2009, 06:28 PM
I don't liek the idea of adding an assassin. First you have to ahve an inquistor lord with retinue and they arent exactly the best of options then your paying 100pts or so getting the assassin. I'd rather not to be honest. i don't think that any of the inquistion can be used in a CC army with the exception of a canoness as both codeicies are outdated and overcosted

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 08:04 PM
Having thought about it more, i would shy away from an assassin. THe cost of an inquistor lord coupled with the assassin makes me thing that points could be spent buying more guardmen or rough riders.

Silver
11-03-2009, 08:45 PM
* Its all about the charge*

What about stocking up on pinning units??? a couple of griffons, not in a squadron, could force pinning tests all over the place on units that are just out of charge range this allows the guard to get into position for the charge as well as pour a few shots into them.


- Silver

zanzibarthefirst
11-03-2009, 10:07 PM
* Its all about the charge*

What about stocking up on pinning units??? a couple of griffons, not in a squadron, could force pinning tests all over the place on units that are just out of charge range this allows the guard to get into position for the charge as well as pour a few shots into them.


- Silver

I totally agree here, a couple of griffons is all that is needed. I'd prefer to take medusa in larger battles but thats just me

Frozen Tiger
11-04-2009, 07:00 AM
regardless of the size of the army, i'd always fit in artillery, just look at the leafblower list; id say that would easily be molded into a CC army and woudl be quite effective. Infantry charging with medusas pinning units which have had their resolve dissolved by psykers. 2 small units in chimera is probably better then 1 large unit. there is generally little need to have 1 unit's ld reduced down to one, i'd rather have 2 units reduced by 4 and then hit with ordance barrage for an additional -1 to ld. SInce most units are between lt 7-9, taking 5 away still makes pinning likely

zanzibarthefirst
11-04-2009, 07:40 AM
2 griffons and rought riders are only 195pts i think, might be 205. none the less there is still lots of points left to get a fair bit of infantry.

I wish I hadnt built my heavy wepaon weapons teams before the new codex came out. I got the box and built 3 lascannons which i now have absolutely no use, i'd much prefer autocannons. I'd managed to scrap together a few mortar teams and for a mere 5 points, they aren't too bad, even in units that are supposed to advance, they can still be useful for when they cannot or shouldnt move forward

zanzibarthefirst
11-04-2009, 10:23 AM
Right how about this for a basis 1000pt list:
CCS, powerfisat, medic, 3 plasma guns
PCS, 4 flamers, pw
30 man combined squad, 3 flamers, 3 power weapons, commissar, 3 flamers
PCS, 4 flamers, pw
30 man combined squad, 3 flamers, 3 power weapons, commissar, 3 flamers
5 man Rough rider squad, meltagun, meltabombs
2 Griffons

Purple
11-04-2009, 06:44 PM
Right how about this for a basis 1000pt list:
CCS, powerfist, medic, 3 plasma guns
PCS, 4 flamers, pw
30 man combined squad, 3 flamers, 3 power weapons, commissar, 3 flamers
PCS, 4 flamers, pw
30 man combined squad, 3 flamers, 3 power weapons, commissar, 3 flamers
5 man Rough rider squad, meltagun, meltabombs
2 Griffons

Meh. It'll struggle against mech. As a CC army it'll struggle against hordes especially Orks but as its been pointed out so does everything. However as a normal army, there are plenty of flamers in there to wittle down a horde so you might stand a chance. griffons wont exactly do much, maybe a manticore would be better

DarkLink
11-04-2009, 07:51 PM
Flamers aren't that great on footslogging squads. You'll have to be extremely careful about your movement if you ever want to fire them, and even then, you can't tank shock and don't have the mobility to position your guys in just the right way to maximize the template coverage.

zanzibarthefirst
11-04-2009, 11:24 PM
If flamers are a no go what do you suggest, remove all 14 of them and replace them with something else, another squad of rought riders or something?
I'd still like to take them especially since they are designed for CC and footflogging is the only way to get them their. Flamers may take a bit of skill but really help thin a horde

BuFFo
11-05-2009, 12:37 AM
I don't liek the idea of adding an assassin. First you have to ahve an inquistor lord with retinue and they arent exactly the best of options then your paying 100pts or so getting the assassin. I'd rather not to be honest. i don't think that any of the inquistion can be used in a CC army with the exception of a canoness as both codeicies are outdated and overcosted

You don't need an Inquisitor Lord.... Just the Elite one will do just fine :)

Pro tip: You may be wondering how? There are two books you can choose your allies from. Enjoy...

Purple
11-05-2009, 05:53 AM
You don't need an Inquisitor Lord.... Just the Elite one will do just fine :)

Pro tip: You may be wondering how? There are two books you can choose your allies from. Enjoy...

it seems your right but i think that makes it even worse, now you're using two elite choices instead of one. A vindicare and 2 squads of pskers would have been fine but now you can only get 1 squad. I still stand by my statement that its not going to work, at least not in low points or when elite slots come at a premium. If you are going to make a CC army, im not too sure taking two inquistion elite choices will improve your CC abilities any more than anythign from the IG codex

zanzibarthefirst
11-05-2009, 04:37 PM
yeah im gonna drop the assassin bit, a bit too pricey for what you get although a psycannon inquistor with a few mages might get a looking buy then im leaning more towards a shooty guard army rather than a CC one.
Grey Knights shoudl probably only be used in battles greater than 1250pts. A fulsquad of 10 with psycannons is over 300pts and porbably isnt as good as 60 guardsmen.

I wish you could combine squads in the middle of the battle then i could mech up and merge when i go in for the assault

SlavesToDarkness
11-13-2009, 01:05 PM
I know nobody likes him, but taking Chenkov can let you take a couple recycling conscript squads. Combined with Straken, it could be very dangerous.

DarkLink
11-13-2009, 02:40 PM
Yeah, 10 Grey Knights with psycannons isn't the way to go. Grey Knights do the most damage up close and personal, with Storm Bolters, Incinerators and plenty of CC. Whereas if you take Psycannons on a unit like that, you're spending 325pts to get a crappy Dev. squad. Either you're in CC, where psycannons are useless, or your at range, where you're spending a ridiculous amount of points for a few Str 6 shots.