Cheating Problem

[Deathscythe91]

So in my local group we are having a problem with a player cheating. He is the youngest in the group by several years (Most are 20+ but he is 14). When playing he always rolls dice to his advantage like rolling 4 when only 3 hit, scattering left instead of right on scatter dice, or claiming to make saves even when he rolls a one. Currently none of us want to play him but being that he is so young and most of us are much older it just seems like bullying. To make matters worse he is already playing a cheesy daemon army yet he feels the need to cheat to win. We just started a new campaign that allowed anyone to join but what do we do with this young player? Any ideas?

[White Tiger88]

Throw is dice at him and tell him to go read the rulebook.......Then again that might cause legal issues if you take an eye out <_<


So i suggest simply ignoring him or kicking him out of your group till he stops cheating.

[Dalleron]

Call him on it, politely. With more than one of you preferrably. He can't put up much of a fight if multiple people do it. If he puts up a fuss, thn tough beans for him.

[Eberk]

I don't really understand how he manages to cheat that much.

When we roll for scatter we roll the dice as close to the template/deep strike unit as possible and LEAVE THE DICE until the scatter has been resolved. So there is just NO possibility for cheating.

Same with hits/wounds. Roll all the dice together (different colours if needed for different BS/strength) and leave them on the table. Then, while your opponent is looking, take away all the misses until only hits remain. Then just use those dice for the next roll (or to determine how many saves are needed)


Perhaps you should do something like that, thrown dice must remain on the table untouched until the action is over or something like that. This way you won't call anybody out on cheating, its just a way to minimise/avoid discussions. (if he is smart he will know he's the problem ;-) )


If I played against somebody who took away his dice to quick before I had a chance to look at them, I would just ask to leave them until I had a chance to look at them. Just the way I would roll my dice and let him look and confirm my rolls. (I let my opponent confirm my rolls because sometimes I make mistakes, which is only human ;-) )

[Dyrnwyn]

So in my local group we are having a problem with a player cheating. He is the youngest in the group by several years (Most are 20+ but he is 14). When playing he always rolls dice to his advantage like rolling 4 when only 3 hit, scattering left instead of right on scatter dice, or claiming to make saves even when he rolls a one. Currently none of us want to play him but being that he is so young and most of us are much older it just seems like bullying. To make matters worse he is already playing a cheesy daemon army yet he feels the need to cheat to win. We just started a new campaign that allowed anyone to join but what do we do with this young player? Any ideas?

Sit down and be frank with him. Bring more than one guy from the group if you think it's necessary, and lay it out for him.

"Look man, I don't know your reasons. I don't know if you thought you were getting away with it because none of us said anything. But we all know you have cheated, and it's gotten to the point where nobody wants to play against you. No, we don't particularly care about your reasons or excuses. we're adults, we have jobs and this is our leisure time, and we aren't going to waste it playing a 2+ hour game against someone cheating the whole way. This is your intervention and last chance. If you keep doing this, we're done. It's not like you won't be able to find games. But not against anyone here. We'll be happier spectating each others' games over playing with you. If you need help developing some clarity and good habits in dice-rolling, measuring distances, etc, we'll help. If you're not interested, feel free to find another gaming group/space."

Given that he's 14, this will either make him bluster about not-cheating at which point you can give him up for lost, or cause him to fold in on himself in chagrin. If you say nothing and just don't play against him? He'll be come like the un-favorable vets at my LGS - only playing against new players that don't know his reputation or against other unfavorable vets who can't get a game against anyone else.

People don't know to improve if they don't get told they're doing wrong.

[Wolfshade]

Sit down and be frank with him. Bring more than one guy from the group if you think it's necessary, and lay it out for him.

Make sure that there is more than one, don't want any accusation of inappropriate behaviour. This is good practice when dealing with young people when their parents/guardians are not present.

The other option (or completementary) would be to issue a "guide" for dice rolls laying out how they are to be done and issue it to everyone.

E.g.
When rolling, remove those that fail, rather than picking those that pass.
When rolling scatter these should be done close to where it is being resolved from (this is in the BRB IIRC)

[Learn2Eel]

Force him to roll his dice out in the open and make sure he doesn't touch them. If he tries to make alms about it, politely explain to him that cheating is not allowed or acceptable.

[imperialpower]

Keeping quiet about it is the worst thing you could do just let him know about it simple as, it could be that he is doesn't know how to play the game very well.

[Jax]

As a minor, you should be careful about how you handle the situation - if necessary, take him to a corner that is away from people yet within sight, and speak to him in a polite; yet firm manner. Regardless of how you choose to handle the situation, it is important that you to speak to him ASAP as leaving him be will indirectly teach him that his behaviour is acceptable - which it is not.
If he chooses to continue his behaviour, teach him in a polite manner how to roll dice properly - if he starts to have trouble or cause strife over it, then get another member or a collection of members to ban him. The last thing you want is some parent getting involved and accusing you of bullying their 'perfect' son.

[Caitsidhe]

There is only one solution to the problem. As a group you say, "until you grow up and stop cheating... you aren't playing any of us." Leave it at that.

[SotonShades]

Just because he is younger doesn't mean he should be allowed to get away with cheating. I started when I was 10, and I didn't try to cheat then because I was playing against older, more experienced players. I took my beatings and learned from them. Sort of... I still suck but most people seem to think it is more my dice rolling than my tactics/army lists...

Give him a warning from everyone in the group. One warning next time he is caught cheating. If he does it again, he is expelled. Simple as. Just be clear and explain to him in a calm even tone. Then it isn't bullying. If he gets defensive about it, make it a group 'policy' that anyone caught cheating gets 1 warning from then on or will suffer the same fate.

[bfmusashi]

Does he wear glasses with a hefty prescritpion? I lost the ability to judge a straight line when I updated my prescription. He also might need different dice as a three can look like a one on certain patterns of the tiny ones. That's about the limits of benefit of the doubt I can throw in.

[Psychosplodge]

I think this would be most easily solved with a lynching.

[Deadlift]

Hold your rule book over his army, look him in the eye and tell him to stop ****ing cheating.
Explain that you understand accidents happen, fudging dice or dropping rule books. It's all the same.

[Wolfshade]

Hold your rule book over his army, look him in the eye and tell him to stop ****ing cheating.
Explain that you understand accidents happen, fudging dice or dropping rule books. It's all the same.

See I was expecting you to use your steel dice...

[Deadlift]

Always an option ;)

[Lord of the Dead]

use a piece of poster board with house rules.
1. No cheating
2. dice must remain on table till opponent has a chance to review them
3. dice must be rolled on table where everyone can see them with no obstruction
4. all scatter die rolls must be reviewed by the opponent
5. no whining
6. cheaters will be beaten with a rule book until rules are understood

feel free to add more

[Lord of the Dead]

you have to use the hard cover rule book for the beating!

[Nabterayl]

Sit down and be frank with him. Bring more than one guy from the group if you think it's necessary, and lay it out for him.

"Look man, I don't know your reasons. I don't know if you thought you were getting away with it because none of us said anything. But we all know you have cheated, and it's gotten to the point where nobody wants to play against you. No, we don't particularly care about your reasons or excuses. we're adults, we have jobs and this is our leisure time, and we aren't going to waste it playing a 2+ hour game against someone cheating the whole way. This is your intervention and last chance. If you keep doing this, we're done. It's not like you won't be able to find games. But not against anyone here. We'll be happier spectating each others' games over playing with you. If you need help developing some clarity and good habits in dice-rolling, measuring distances, etc, we'll help. If you're not interested, feel free to find another gaming group/space."

Given that he's 14, this will either make him bluster about not-cheating at which point you can give him up for lost, or cause him to fold in on himself in chagrin. If you say nothing and just don't play against him? He'll be come like the un-favorable vets at my LGS - only playing against new players that don't know his reputation or against other unfavorable vets who can't get a game against anyone else.

People don't know to improve if they don't get told they're doing wrong.
+1, as well as to bringing more than one person. You don't want him feeling interrogated by fifteen people, but one person makes it between him and that one person, and this needs to be about how the group feels. He's a kid (or at least that's all we know about him right now). Kids deserve for adults to be straight up with them when they're being offensive. These are the facts, they aren't up for debate, and these are the consequences of those facts.

[Xenith]

Ye gods.

Do the same thing with him as you would to any other of the group that was cheating. By treating him differently because he is younger, you are already excluding him from the social group.

So currently, when he rolls a one and says he passed the save, you say nothing? Ask to see the dice roll. Every time. He'll soon stop.

[Nabterayl]

Ye gods.

Do the same thing with him as you would to any other of the group that was cheating. By treating him differently because he is younger, you are already excluding him from the social group.

So currently, when he rolls a one and says he passed the save, you say nothing? Ask to see the dice roll. Every time. He'll soon stop.
While I think this is a fine idea, I think it's too passive-aggressive to be the only response for a known chronic cheater. When somebody cheats all the time - whether a kid or not, but especially as a kid - I think an adult response has to include a polite, absolutely unyielding, completely direct notice that (1) the cheating is known and has been known for some time, (2) whether cheating is occurring or not is not up for debate, (3) it will stop, immediately, (4) or the cheater is no longer welcome to play here/with us.

With any cheater, but especially a kid, the grown ups in the room can't just adapt to the cheating by making it harder. They should do that, absolutely, until trust is built - but they should also say, out loud, "You are cheating. Stop it." If nobody has told this kid you know what he's doing, it's not okay, and he must stop, he isn't being treated squarely.

[Mr Mystery]

Dead easy.

For every dodgy roll, challenge his reading of the dice, using the rulebook. Take him through each rule with each roll.

It's a polite way of saying 'you're doing it wrong and I not only know it, but can prove it'.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm with Nab on this. Trying to be subtle won't work; unless he is really, really dumb, he won't think he is getting away unnoticed, he'll just think that there is nothing you can/will do about it. As someone who has regular experience of telling 14 year olds what they are doing wrong, you need to be firm but calm and polite. Doing it publicly will just humiliate him, so have a quiet word away from others. Explain that the others in your group all support you in this and explain that consequences of his actions. Not just that you will all refuse to play with him, but why. Make him see the negative impact it has on the rest of you and how it ruins your games - how would he feel if you were all doing it against him. Make it clear exactly what he is doing that is wrong and what he needs to do to rectify it. Don't push for an apology or anything like that; if he offers it great, if he doesn't then just accept the change in his behaviour as a suitable sign of contrition. That should work with most kids.
Of course, this is assuming you actually care about developing him into a friendly and fair gamer; you are under no obligation to do anything for him and you could just kick him out.

[Sainhann]

So in my local group we are having a problem with a player cheating. He is the youngest in the group by several years (Most are 20+ but he is 14). When playing he always rolls dice to his advantage like rolling 4 when only 3 hit, scattering left instead of right on scatter dice, or claiming to make saves even when he rolls a one. Currently none of us want to play him but being that he is so young and most of us are much older it just seems like bullying. To make matters worse he is already playing a cheesy daemon army yet he feels the need to cheat to win. We just started a new campaign that allowed anyone to join but what do we do with this young player? Any ideas?

Well it it is a campaign have everyone gang up on him. I.E. have two individuals attack him at the same time.

But if you catch him cheating call him on it and do it loud enough so that everyone knows that he has been caught cheating.

I learned a long time ago to never play a game against anyone younger than 18 because those games never were fun.

[Nabterayl]

I think that's a fine way to get the guy to quit, Saimhann - but if you just want the guy to quit, tell him he can't join the campaign and yes, you're making a specific exception for him because of his poor manners. No need to be all passive aggressive about it. Last I checked even retail stores open to the public are allowed to tell any given person to get the hell off their property for being cheaters.

I guess what you're seeing here, Deathscythe, is that your tactics depend on your desired outcome. If you just want the kid gone, that's easy. Just tell him to get lost. You don't owe him anything.

If you want him to become fun to play with, then you need to talk to him - privately but uncompromisingly, because that's the way teenage boys are wired. Might not work. Sounds like nobody in your group will find that conversation very comfortable to have. You don't have to do it - you don't owe him anything - but it's probably got the best chance of working.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Burn his dice in front of him

[Wildeybeast]

Unless they are wood, they would just melt not burn. And if he's using iron dice like a mate of mine, you would need a really big fire...

[Pater Sin]

Someone in GW Oxford once suggested that I should smack my opponent with the rule book because they were cheating.

[Psychosplodge]

seems reasonable, I still think the lynching would work better in terms of long term effectiveness...

[Wildeybeast]

I'm fairly certain both of these will lead to legal repercussions and unless they are coupled with clear explanations of what action has lead to the physical violence, won't do anything to address the problem long term.

[Denzark]

Kill him. Display the carcass in a gibbet with a placard marked 'Cheat'* round his neck pour encourager les autres.

*not 'cheater' that is colonial talk not English

[Spamthulhu]

I watched a game two people were playing once. It was a fantasy game between a demon player and empire. I noticed he would mix in a certain number of almost obvious looking dice that seemed to always roll 6's. It was just enough to sway the game in his favor as he always saved at least 3-4 out of 5-6 saves. It was just enough to sway the game heavily in his favor as his demons could stay alive long enough to inflict heavy casualties. I wanted to say something about the dice but it wasn't my game and I felt like it wasn't my place to interject. I would have said something if I hadn't left before they finished the game.

[Wolfshade]

Kill him. Display the carcass in a gibbet with a placard marked 'Cheat'* round his neck pour encourager les autres.

*not 'cheater' that is colonial talk not English

This is akin to this:
http://www.cheshire.police.uk/images/seized-car_v_Variation_1.jpg

[Denzark]

What a good idea...

[rtmaitreya]

I noticed he would mix in a certain number of almost obvious looking dice that seemed to always roll 6's. It was just enough to sway the game in his favor as he always saved at least 3-4 out of 5-6 saves. It was just enough to sway the game heavily in his favor as his demons could stay alive long enough to inflict heavy casualties. I wanted to say something about the dice but it wasn't my game and I felt like it wasn't my place to interject. I would have said something if I hadn't left before they finished the game.

It is always your place and time to point out cheaters and make fun of them in whatever creative and derisive manner you feel up to at the moment. In this case, for example, the second time you see the roll being made with those dice, reach in and grab one of them, proclaiming loudly and excitedly, "WOW, these are AWESOME DICE!!!11!1 Where did you get these dice that always roll SIXES! I want to get some of these for myself so I can roll more SIXES!!11! Great job finding these, can I buy them off of you, huh? How many you got there, four, five, looks like 8 of them, can I buy half of them off you?" Make enough of a scene that everyone in the store hears you and looks over. They all need to see the cheater and connect him with loaded dice.

Problem will start sorting itself out. Cheaters NEVER like being exposed.

RTM