BA Vanguard Vets

[Tynskel]

Has anyone one been trying BA Vanguard Vets with dual pistols (or at least a couple guys with dual pistols)?

I have been thinking about arming sgts in assault squads with dual flame pistols. Could possibly be a great offensive and defensive weapon.

[ElectricPaladin]

On the one hand, great defensive profile. 2d3 automatic hits in overwatch per dual pistol guy? 2 templates in the shooting phase? AND he doesn't lose the bonus attack in close combat? Awesome!

On the other hand, those attacks in close combat are pretty weak. Every dude with a pair of pistols is a dude without a power weapon. Unless your meta is full of weaker armor than mine, a vanguard vets squad with lots of dual pistols is going to have a hard time making those close combat wounds stick.

That said, that's why Vanguard Vets usually lose out to Sanguinary Guard in terms of power weapon delivery, so perhaps you're planning to use them differently.

Hm... overall, I think I don't know how to answer your question. Can you clarify a little more? What's the tactical use you imagine for your vets?

[Wolfshade]

I dusted of my VVs, 5 man, melta bomb, thunderhammer. They had one job take out a bassie, they landed, assaulted took the tank out then were promptly shot to death with melta and demo charges.

I'm not sure if it was worth it, but they did their job.

[Vindur]

It could work alright but the lack of armour piercing on the cc attacks could be a problem.
Also unless its in an FAQ gunslinger only works in the shooting phase so flame pistols will be d3 not 2d3

[Wolfshade]

It could work alright but the lack of armour piercing on the cc attacks could be a problem.
Also unless its in an FAQ gunslinger only works in the shooting phase so flame pistols will be d3 not 2d3

Don't forget that they would still have their krak grenades... well that would work vs. armour not so much against infantry

[Tynskel]

well, if you are going dual pistols, you are more relying on the double shots, impact attacks, and volume of attacks. 5 guys = 9 shots (sgt has a power weapon), 5 impacts, and 20 attacks. 34 'attacks' in one round is a lot (I am not considering the deep strike charge).

[plawolf]

I don't think it is worth if. The primary reason I take VV is for the HI, that means they would get one round of shooting in before they are stuck in CC, and even then, I sometimes hesitate to shoot some of my pistols,especially if I roll high for scatter and is only just in charge range as shooting could easily cost me the charge if I roll well, and if the enemy gets a full round of shooting in, the typically small VV squad will either be toast, or utterly ineffective at causing much damage even if they do survive by some miracle.

The debate on whether you get two pops in overwatch is beside the point IMO, since if your VVs are left out in the open, enemy charging is going to be the least of your problems.

In my view, storm shields and power weapons would be a far better use of the points. Those SS could make a massive difference when in comes to your squad surviving enemy overwatch, and they should alas help to keep your VVs alive much longer, and maybe even allow them to assault a second squad.

If you want jumpy shooters, joust go dual plasma guns in RAS, you can even give the Serg a plasma pistol or two if you feel like. Far more dakka for far fewer points, and they are also scoring too.

[kingsfan2099]

If you use Heroic Intervention you cannot shoot. Pg. 27 Codex BA. Putting power weapons and Storm Shields on a Vet squad can become very expensive very quickly. If you want to take VV I would tool them out to do one thing only and trying to make them survivable doesn't seem to be a good use of points. If you want them anti mech in which case you give them some melta bombs or melta guns or some power fists or a few of each or go anti infantry with maybe a couple plasma guns and a plasma pistol and a few power weapons, again this can get very expensive and I think you may be better off taking an assault squad tooled out the way you want. Just be careful putting to many points into those Vets.

[Tynskel]

I was thinking flamer pistols would be the way to go: Bolt Pistol and Flamer. Give the Sgt. a Glave Encarmine Axe and Storm Shield. 225 points

225 Blood Angels Vanguard Veterans
5 Marines, Sgt. w/Glaive Encarmine (Axe) and Storm Shield, 4 w/Bolt Pistols and Flamer Pistols

Not too terribly expensive. Hit the ground, charge something weak. Then just bounce around the board. Seems to me that you would just need to make sure there are plenty of targets to make your opponent think there's something more important to shoot. They would make a great support squad for Drop Podding tacticals.

I also like the sgt with an axe n' shield. Makes a fun character killer.
If you get Sanguinor, there's always the possibility of having a mini-captain. :) Although, the initiative boost might make him worth taking a lightning claw.

[Anggul]

The thing is, for that cost you can have a full squad of 10 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers, Power Weapon and Hand Flamer. That's better in almost all cases and can score without The Scouring. Vanguard Vets aren't really worth it even with Heroic Intervention, because you could just shoot the enemy squad from afar with the same effect and not inevitably lose the squad that did it.

Kelly didn't do much right in the Space Wolves codex, but what he definitely did get right was that Veterans (in that case Wolf Guard) should not pay as many points for combat weapons as squad leaders. It just makes them massively over-priced for what they are. It should be 10pts at most to give a Veteran a Power Weapon. My Incubi laugh in marine Veteran's general direction and I feel sorry for them.

[Tynskel]

I love that people always refer to Incubi when combating expensive space marines. Uh, no duh: their statline and weapons suggest veteran killers...

[Martel732]

225 pts for 5 models with T4 W1 and no FNP support is borderline nuts. It is the temptation to field this exact kind of squad that gets BA players in deep trouble really fast. Depending on what the board looks like, it can be difficult to get a good deep strike next to a unit that you want to assault. Remember that the margin of error for these guys is on a Gaussian centered at 7". For guys double tapping plasma coming out of a pod, life is much easier with a fixed radius of 12" and they get to not worry about scattering into terrain.

It doesn't need to be incubi for this to go south quickly. Any init 4 jerk off squad that gets a couple lucky hits through the power armor will kill a lot of points. And that's after overwatch.

[Martel732]

The thing is, for that cost you can have a full squad of 10 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers, Power Weapon and Hand Flamer. That's better in almost all cases and can score without The Scouring. Vanguard Vets aren't really worth it even with Heroic Intervention, because you could just shoot the enemy squad from afar with the same effect and not inevitably lose the squad that did it.

Kelly didn't do much right in the Space Wolves codex, but what he definitely did get right was that Veterans (in that case Wolf Guard) should not pay as many points for combat weapons as squad leaders. It just makes them massively over-priced for what they are. It should be 10pts at most to give a Veteran a Power Weapon. My Incubi laugh in marine Veteran's general direction and I feel sorry for them.

Overpriced is the consistent theme throughout the BA codex. But Incubi can't be the answer to everything, because they can't be everywhere at once.

[Tynskel]

I am not sure how you come to a scattering of 7".
Blood Angels only scatter D6" on the drop in jump packs, and they get to re-roll their reserve roll.

You are also discounting 4 template weapons and 4 pistol shots...

Nor do you have the radius of a drop pod correct. yes it is '12"'. However, in practice that is no where near the case. Most of the time the scatter is, at most, very small.

[Martel732]

I am not sure how you come to a scattering of 7".
Blood Angels only scatter D6" on the drop in jump packs, and they get to re-roll their reserve roll.

You are also discounting 4 template weapons and 4 pistol shots...

Nor do you have the radius of a drop pod correct. yes it is '12"'. However, in practice that is no where near the case. Most of the time the scatter is, at most, very small.

If you want to use heroic intervention, you can't shoot.

I didn't say they scattered 7", they need to land within 7" of the intended charge target in order to get their 21/36 chance to successfully assault.

I have the radius of the drop pod fine. The units have to end up within 12" to double tap. Of course they get a 6" disembark as well, so drop pods are pretty much fool proof for double tapping rapid fire 24" weapons.

I have seen BA vanguards fail many times. They are overpriced and unreliable. And they're not even that good in HTH.

[plawolf]

There is no such thing as an absolutely safe option or unit. If you want absolutely no risk, to take up knitting or something similar.

Yes it is possible to not be in charge range with BA VV when they use HI, but its very rare and when it does happen, the fault is usually with the controlling player where he went for a risky target and the dice didn't help him out.

Regard C:SM VV should get HI off most of the time, and BA VV who only roll one dice for scatter is almost hard to not make HI work.

The great thing about VV is that you can equip the guys differently. I never give all the guts storm shields because its expensive, unnecessary, and even a little counter productive since you loose attacks with PW guys. I normally have a 2/3-1 ratio for storm shields, where I put one in every 2 or 3 VVs depending on how many points I have to play with.

PF, power axe and LC guys are the obvious choices to get SS, but I almost always take out on a VV without any other upgrades as you fail those 3+s eventually, so the guy tanking all the AP3 or better weapons needs to be expendable.

The key to success with VV is to realize and accept their shortcomings and limitations and use them to do what the can do installed of what you want them to do.

VV is more of a disruption unit rather than a hammer unit. The value of the VV is that they can come down and pretty much stop almost any enemy infantry unit from doing anything else next turn almost anywhere on the board. They don't need to kill anything to make their points back if they tie the enemy shooty squad down and stop them gunning down your deathstar.

VV cannot stand against most enemy hammer units, but that is where placement and target selection comes in.

I will typically drop my VV near the very back of the enemy line and tie up his heavy support. If the enemy deathstar wants to double back and deal with the VV, so much the better as that means that is a bigger part of the game that deathstar is not attacking something more useful to me at a more important part of the table.

The VV squad is not to make its own points back in kills, but rather to help your true hammer unit make much more than it's cost back without getting shot to pieces before hand.

To that end, a VV squad need staying power, and that means numbers and storm shields, and only after that does CC special weapons come into consideration. I have found that you really need at least 6' preferably 8 guys in a squad, with 2-3 storm shields and power weapons/fists. If the unit is any smaller than 6, or even 8, they will just not cause enough damage and disruption to be worth while. Same with storm shields. Without them, there would just be too many units that can hurt the VV too much on the counter. When you only have 6-8 guys, those hidden fists can really hurt. Although thankfully, that is less of a problem with 6th and challenges. Which is incidently why I almost always put a SS on the Vet Serg.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, logic.

[Martel732]

"The key to success with VV is to realize and accept their shortcomings and limitations and use them to do what the can do installed of what you want them to do."

In theory, I agree with most of your post. My assertion is that they simply cost too much given their shortcoming and limitations. For what you pay for them, they need to be a lot more reliable and dangerous. It's all about cost/benefit analysis.

Storm shields don't help an meq's save against being punched in the face. At all. It just makes them give up more points when they die. Rear guard heavy weapon teams are not know for their power weapons.

I myself don't use deathstar units often, and I don't think that a deathstar unit is necessary to beat up 6-8 veterans.

[Tynskel]

I never considered Vanguard Veterans as a 'deathstar' unit. That's an inappropriate use for a unit with 3+ armor. Veteran squads are good for harassment and eliminating key targets. Targets that, if not eliminated, will do far more damage then the cost of the veteran squad, itself.

[Martel732]

I never considered Vanguard Veterans as a 'deathstar' unit. That's an inappropriate use for a unit with 3+ armor. Veteran squads are good for harassment and eliminating key targets. Targets that, if not eliminated, will do far more damage then the cost of the veteran squad, itself.

For the price you are paying for these suggested vanguard units, that would have to be one hell of a target.

My deathstar comment was referring to the idea of someone turning around their deathstar unit to deal with the vanguards. I asserted that the vanguards are not that scary and a deathstar unit is hardly necessary to deal with them.

[Anggul]

I don't know why you read it as you did, but it was pretty clear that I was referencing the fact that a Vanguard Veteran with power weapon and jump pack is about twice the cost of an Incubus and not nearly as good. My point (quite clearly) was that Vanguard should not pay as much as they do for power weapons and such. When you have a squad of multiple special close combat weapons you should not pay as much per model as you do for a squad leader to have one. Hence I said it should be about 10pts for a VV to have a power weapon rather than the same as a Sergeant pays.

[Martel732]

I don't know why you read it as you did, but it was pretty clear that I was referencing the fact that a Vanguard Veteran with power weapon and jump pack is about twice the cost of an Incubus and not nearly as good. My point (quite clearly) was that Vanguard should not pay as much as they do for power weapons and such. When you have a squad of multiple special close combat weapons you should not pay as much per model as you do for a squad leader to have one. Hence I said it should be about 10pts for a VV to have a power weapon rather than the same as a Sergeant pays.

Incubi are that cheap? Damn VV suck it big time.

[Tynskel]

Incubi are that cheap? Damn VV suck it big time.

I don't understand the comparison. They are completely different codexes...

[Tynskel]

For the price you are paying for these suggested vanguard units, that would have to be one hell of a target.

My deathstar comment was referring to the idea of someone turning around their deathstar unit to deal with the vanguards. I asserted that the vanguards are not that scary and a deathstar unit is hardly necessary to deal with them.

225 points is pocket change. well worth the price for a suicide unit. We are talking about 4 templates and an axe carrying character killer. Any suicide unit that is going to pull its weight is going to be ~200-300 points for space marines.
Death Stars are +300 (including characters, etc.).

[Martel732]

225 points is pocket change. well worth the price for a suicide unit. We are talking about 4 templates and an axe carrying character killer. Any suicide unit that is going to pull its weight is going to be ~200-300 points for space marines.
Death Stars are +300 (including characters, etc.).

225 points is not pocket change. However, this is a philosophical difference I suppose. I like to make my opponent work to kill my marines, not just throw them away on suicide missions. I have beaten several players with superior lists by them throwing too much away.

[Martel732]

I don't understand the comparison. They are completely different codexes...

Because all players have a pool of points to draw from. VV exist. And Incubi exist. In the same game. So, therefore, I may compare them and note how much more effective the Incubi are for the points.

Maybe this is why you don't understand why I hate the BA codex. The BA pay a lot of points for units that really aren't that good. I considier codicies that can field more effective units for less points to be superior. You seem to think there is some way to scheme you way out of such a hole. Against people who know what they're doing, you can't.

[Tynskel]

Because all players have a pool of points to draw from. VV exist. And Incubi exist. In the same game. So, therefore, I may compare them and note how much more effective the Incubi are for the points.

Maybe this is why you don't understand why I hate the BA codex. The BA pay a lot of points for units that really aren't that good. I considier codicies that can field more effective units for less points to be superior. You seem to think there is some way to scheme you way out of such a hole. Against people who know what they're doing, you can't.

I completely disagree. What your opponent's codex has is a completely different combinations of units, and function completely differently. You cannot compare individual units to each other in this manner. You have to do clean comparisons, otherwise, you are not accounting for non-linearities.

Besides, you can always defeat a superior opponent.

[Martel732]

I completely disagree. What your opponent's codex has is a completely different combinations of units, and function completely differently. You cannot compare individual units to each other in this manner. You have to do clean comparisons, otherwise, you are not accounting for non-linearities.

Besides, you can always defeat a superior opponent.

This is not a case of non-linearities. The stat lines and capabilities are directly comparable. Perhaps this is why you don't realize just how bad the BA codex is now. Well, whatever. Keep suiciding your 225 points of guys. If it wins for you, who am I to object?

[Tynskel]

This is not a case of non-linearities. The stat lines and capabilities are directly comparable. Perhaps this is why you don't realize just how bad the BA codex is now. Well, whatever. Keep suiciding your 225 points of guys. If it wins for you, who am I to object?

I love that you keep thinking I have no idea what's going on.
There are different purposes for every unit in the game. The statlines are more for comparison within a codex. Otherwise, only aspects of statlines are useful in comparison for explicit situations between codexes. However, again, you have to account for multiple factors.

Direct comparisons are meaningless, because they almost never happen. If they happen to you all the time, you need to try something different while you play.
Very few instances in the game are units just worthless.


And stop hijacking the thread.
This is about dual wielding pistols. Have you tried them? If not, go home and try them, then come back and tell me how they 'suck'.

[Martel732]

I love that you keep thinking I have no idea what's going on.
There are different purposes for every unit in the game. The statlines are more for comparison within a codex. Otherwise, only aspects of statlines are useful in comparison for explicit situations between codexes. However, again, you have to account for multiple factors.

Direct comparisons are meaningless, because they almost never happen. If they happen to you all the time, you need to try something different while you play.
Very few instances in the game are units just worthless.


And stop hijacking the thread.
This is about dual wielding pistols. Have you tried them? If not, go home and try them, then come back and tell me how they 'suck'.

Dual pistols don't work at all with heroic intervention. Yes, dual pistols are something I sometimes run. They are decent, but being only STR 3 AP 6 really limits their kills compared to full powered flamers.

Quit posting that you think it's okay idea to throw away 225 points and I might think you have some idea of what's going on. Direct comparisons are extremely relevant, and the fact that you don't think they are really makes me question your grasp of the situation.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm not going to standby a let people think that this is a good plan without a dissenting voice.

[Tynskel]

The unit is quite flexible, it can roast, or get into combat right away.
As I said it is a suicide unit, not meant for the long haul. You use it to do its one thing.

You are being redonkulous to think that suicide tactics are not useful. Vanguard Vets are a suicide unit. If you are spending all of your time trying to keep them alive, you have completely missed the ball on what they are for.

And, no, direct comparisons are poor. Maybe you should read the white dwarf with nobs vs wolfguard. the nobs pwned, until the wolfguard brought the rest of their buddies. It doesn't matter that the nobs were 'better' than the wolf guard, because the rest of the army is what made the difference.

[Martel732]

The unit is quite flexible, it can roast, or get into combat right away.
As I said it is a suicide unit, not meant for the long haul. You use it to do its one thing.

You are being redonkulous to think that suicide tactics are not useful. Vanguard Vets are a suicide unit. If you are spending all of your time trying to keep them alive, you have completely missed the ball on what they are for.

And, no, direct comparisons are poor. Maybe you should read the white dwarf with nobs vs wolfguard. the nobs pwned, until the wolfguard brought the rest of their buddies. It doesn't matter that the nobs were 'better' than the wolf guard, because the rest of the army is what made the difference.

Just because the rest of the army shows up, doesn't meant the nobs still aren't better than the wolfguard. There are two levels of comparison: unit vs unit and army vs army. But army vs army is defined by multiple unit vs unit matchups. That's why comparison is incredibly important.

I never said suicide tactics didn't have their place. What I question is spending 225 pts on 5 marines and then throwing them away.

[Tynskel]

Just because the rest of the army shows up, doesn't meant the nobs still aren't better than the wolfguard. There are two levels of comparison: unit vs unit and army vs army. But army vs army is defined by multiple unit vs unit matchups. That's why comparison is incredibly important.

I never said suicide tactics didn't have their place. What I question is spending 225 pts on 5 marines and then throwing them away.

???
You missed the ball. The comparison goes out the window, because one does not have total control of how a unit attacks.
I use 200-300 point suicide units all the time. There are plenty of reasons to do so. The elimination of a target is one... It is almost impossible to make an effective suicide unit for less than 200 points.
This particular one has both guns and close combat. I don't know if it is effective, which is why I am on the forum. However, just telling everyone that YOU don't like them doesn't help answer the question.

Did you try them? Come back and tell me how they suck after you try them.

[Martel732]

Anyone else have any thoughts? I know we're kind of talking about orthogonal points here. My take: Dual hand flamers are decent, but not on vanguard, because the vanguard themselves are disasters. Another overpriced BA toy.

[Tynskel]

Anyone else have any thoughts? I know we're kind of talking about orthogonal points here. My take: Dual hand flamers are decent, but not on vanguard, because the vanguard themselves are disasters. Another overpriced BA toy.

what would you put them on, a command squad? They cost the same...

[Martel732]

what would you put them on, a command squad? They cost the same...

I don't use honor guard, either. Too expensive for my taste. I just use them on plain ol sergeants from time to time. I consider it a bit pricey to put in a take all comers list though. You could end up fighting nurgle marines or something like that and look really foolish.

[Tynskel]

I normally don't like dual pistols on sgts. Occasionally I do so, however, I just usually prefer the power weapon.

[Anggul]

I don't understand the comparison. They are completely different codexes...

Because that's how power weapon squads should be priced. A Sybarite/Hekatrix is considerably worse than an Incubus, but costs more with a power weapon due to the utility it brings to the squad and the fact that it can be hidden and Look Out Sir!'d. That is the principle of special weapons for squad leaders throughout the game.

Then we look at Space Marines. A Sergeant pays X points for a power weapon. The Vanguard then pay that exact same cost, but end up far too expensive for what they do because Sergeant costs aren't put in place with buying multiples of that weapon in mind. Some of them are likely to die before doing much, thus losing the expensive weapon, so they should cost less, whereas a Sergeant is likely to survive to make use of the weapon. Put it this way: If Terminators were standard Veterans who you then had to purchase Terminator Armour, a Power Fist/Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter/Storm Shield at Sergeant prices, they would work out much more expensive, ridiculously so in fact and would probably never be used. The same goes for Vanguard. The fact that you have to pay premium cost for their equipment just makes them so expensive they just aren't worth it.

There's no point in paying 200+pts for a suicide squad when you could pay the same for a squad which will do the same job and survive for longer after the initial strike. I don't know what points level you usually play at, but 225pts certainly is not something to just throw away. Not with Blood Angels at least.

[Tynskel]

I disagree. 225 points with 4 templates and an axe + shield has a completely different role than a 225 point squad of 10 assault marines with 2 flamers and powerfist.

A claiming unit is not something to just 'throw away', however a veteran squad is something that you use as a scalpel. A scalpel is a one use item. It does a very specific task, and that's it. Then you throw it away.

I am not saying that I disagree on the points issue. However, I don't think the price you pay is all that bad.

[Anggul]

I disagree. 225 points with 4 templates and an axe + shield has a completely different role than a 225 point squad of 10 assault marines with 2 flamers and powerfist.

A claiming unit is not something to just 'throw away', however a veteran squad is something that you use as a scalpel. A scalpel is a one use item. It does a very specific task, and that's it. Then you throw it away.

I am not saying that I disagree on the points issue. However, I don't think the price you pay is all that bad.

The problem I see is that I would say no as soon as someone said: 5 guys, standard Space Marine survivability, 225pts. They could all be armed with power weapons, hand flamers and melta bombs for all it matters (which would actually cost more than that), they still wouldn't be worth it because they're a lot of points and still die like any marine. Unless things go really well for them they'll probably only do away with one thing then die. The problem is that they won't even draw that much firepower away from the rest of your force due to only being as survivable as 5 of any marine, and that's a lot of points to lose to a relatively low amount of enemy shooting. You might destroy something really important with that strike, and I assume that's where you're coming from, but it can be done for cheaper and without losing so many points in the following turn, especially if you're going to drop and flame which then removes the only thing they have going for them, Heroic Intervention. You would be better off with Sternguard with combi-flamers in that case. I suppose that's the moral of the story. Sternguard do it better in almost all situations.

[Tynskel]

I agree that Sterngaurd can do it too. And for roughly the same price, too. That's the thing: a suicide unit is going to be 200-300 points.

175 Sternguard Squad
–5 Marines, Sgt. w/Powerfist and combi-flamer, 4 combi-flamers.
35 Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod

However, the issue here is that sternguard make poor choice as a suicide unit for a variety of reasons:
Vanguard may get into cc, and if you need them to shoot, you can. They have ~same deep strike potential as the sternguard, however, you have more control over when they enter. Unless you are taking multiple drop pods, the Sternguard are in turn 1. Your target may not be in the right spot. Blood Angels Vanguard vets re-roll their reserves.

Furthermore, Sternguard are much scarier than Vanguard. They are almost always a high priority target, and their damage potential is much higher than the vanguard, too. Sternguard are a unit that you want to last a couple of turns, and possible start on the board. You want them firing as much as possible. And to top it off, Sternguard eat up your precious Elites Slot. I don't know about you, but I find myself filling the Elites category much faster than the Fast Attack category.

Suicide units are built for single purpose. If the vanguard land, and disrupt/destroy their target: success. If they survive the following round, double success. Sternguard, if they get destroyed after 1 turn, that's a disappointment strategically.


I see vanguard vets exactly how they were used in Siege of Vraks. They landed, hacked up a bunch of stuff, then died (except Culln), clearing a path for Terminators.