CSM - The Fallen List Ideas - Need Help

[Whereswaldo]

So after finishing my pure Deathwing list I realized that I have 50 Tactical Space Marines and a squad of Terminators (3 Power Sword / Storm Bolter, 1 Chain FIst / Storm Bolter, 1 Assault Cannon / Power Fist) from Dark Vengeance sitting around and I am thinking about making a CSM list that would co-inside with Fallen Dark Angels.

I'm Planning on picking up a Cypher model.
The Tactical Squad Layout I have so far is 5 units consisting of 1 Sergeant with a Chain Sword and Plasma Pistol, 9 Space Marines, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Plasma Cannon (can buy more but would rather use what I have if possible). I am also planning on making alot of green stuff conversions for the entire army.

I'm torn b/t Tzeentch or Nurgle for Marks/ Theme of the Army ... both are fine with me and i'm thinking more fluff wise. Nurgle green stuff conversions would be easy, but I could get more creative with Tzeentch.
It's a hard choice for me too going plague marines or 10k sons (fallen based on 10k sons rules would be interesting)

Painting wise - I traded out all of my beakies for regular Mk armor. Painting them all black for the original heresy chapter colors wouldn't make sense since the armor would be more advance than the time period. So i'm planning on painting them up regular DA colors and using extensive green stuff conversions to make up for the other.

This is what I am thinking about so far .... anyone have any thoughts or advice? I want this to be fluff based but still competitive.

I normally play Space Wolves and Deathwing and I have not play against anyone with Chaos in years.

Just thinking about the idea and could use some help.
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Some Thoughts ....

Cypher – Chaos Lord (Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, The Murder Sword, Sigil of Corruption, Combat Familiar (symbolized by a dark watcher), Veteran of the Long War, Mark of Nurgle) – 175 {Attached to the 9 Man Unit of Plague Marines}

Plague Marines (1 Plague Marine Champion with Melta Bombs, 8 Plague Marines, 2 Melta Guns, Veterans of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 291

Plague Marines (1 Plague Marine Champion with Melta Bombs, 9 Plague Marines, 2 Melta Guns, Veterans of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 315

Chaos Space Marines (1 Aspiring Champion with Plasma Pistol, 9 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Veteran of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 235

Chaos Space Marines (1 Aspiring Champion with Plasma Pistol, 9 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Veteran of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 235

Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsors) - 115

Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsors) - 115

= 1481

OR

Cypher – Sorcerer (Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Mastery Level 3, Force Sword, Aura of Dark Glory, Veteran of the Long War, Mark of Tzeentch) – 160 {Attached to the 9 Man unit of Thousand Suns}

Thousand Sons (1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 8 Thousand Suns, Icon of Flame, Rhino) – 292

Thousand Sons (1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 9 Thousand Suns, Icon of Flame, Rhino) – 315

Chaos Space Marines (1 Aspiring Champion with Plasma Pistol, 9 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Veteran of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 235

Chaos Space Marines (1 Aspiring Champion with Plasma Pistol, 9 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Veteran of the Long War, Rhino with Dirge Caster) – 235

Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsors) - 115

Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsors) - 115

= 1467

I'm thinking for either list, the plague marines / thousand suns will be robed dark angel models, and regular da models for regular csm
Fluffy wise I can see either working out, with Cypher being able to randomly ghost away I think Tzeentch has a ring to it, but pappa Nurgle could make it happen to.

[Whereswaldo]

Anyone have anything to comment or thoughts about it?

[Learn2Eel]

A Nurgle theme is both more competitive and easier to make (you don't need to buy a conversion kit and a Chaos Marine box, you can instead just buy a Plague Marine box). I love Tzeentch, but it is the unfortunate truth with Chaos Space Marines.
I prefer the first army list, though I would drop the Murder Sword on him - from memory, Cypher never uses the sword he carries, and even then, the Murder Sword isn't all that great sadly. If you want to simulate that the situation is dire and Cypher feels forced to use the blade, just use a power sword instead.

As far as Plague Marines go, I find seven-strong squads both fit the theme and efficiency marks - the squad paired with Cypher could even drop to six-strong to fit the theme. Those seven are as tough or tougher than a ten-strong Chaos Marine squad with the Mark of Nurgle, for instance, and it will free up a good chunk of points. It might also be worth dropping two meltaguns on one Plague Marine unit and giving them plasma guns as well, mostly because you will very rarely come up against an opponent where those extra two meltaguns will actually perform better than plasma guns.

Following those suggestions, you should have about one hundred points to spend. From there, you have a few options; to fit with your mechanized theme, you could take a third Predator with heavy bolters. It would be a decent army list without being all that great, but would still fit the theme - each Plague Marine squad would be seven strong (with one including Cypher), and every choice you are taking has a duplicate (except the Dakka Predator). It is mobile and mech, which may surprise a lot of opponents. You also have a good number of bodies.

If you want to make the Tzeentch army work though, I would suggest two things first and foremost;

1) If you take Thousand Sons, don't also take Chaos Marines as Troops. Thousand Sons are solely an anti-infantry unit, and you need to focus more on getting dedicated anti-tank firepower when you field them.
2) Heldrakes are generally seen as the best unit points-per-pound in the codex. They also fit in very well with the Thousand Sons theme. Whilst a pair will be expensive, it will also save your bacon against fliers and units your Thousand Sons traditionally can't deal with (transports).

With Cypher, join him to the eight-man unit to get the fluffy "number". I would seriously consider dropping both Chaos Marine squads and Predators in this army - replace the Predators with five Havocs with four autocannons, and throw two Bale-flamer Heldrakes into the mix. Drop the Icons of Flame on each Thousand Sons unit. With the spare one-hundred and sixty points, chuck a pair of Tzeentch Obliterators in. If you are worried about scoring units, switch the Obliterators out for two ten-man MSU style Cultist units, bare, and plonk them on your home objectives. They then act as both hiding units and deterrents for units closing in on your Havocs. With the spare sixty points, do as you please - but don't upgrade Cypher any more. If you aren't taking Ahriman or Huron with Thousand Sons, you are always going to be left a bit bare unfortunately. They simply don't do what is necessary.

If you are keeping with a Tzeentch theme and you are prepared to drop the Thousand Sons, do it. Replace them with two Bale-flamer Heldrakes - it keeps the Tzeentch theme, and the Heldrakes will do the same thing, but a whole lot better. Drop a Chaos Marine from one of the squads (including the second plasma gun), and put Cypher in there. With the chunk of points you have spare, maybe again consider switching the Predators for the above-mentioned Autocannon Havocs (they are a straight swap and IMO more effective) and take a pair of unmarked Obliterators. From there on, add in some more Troops, whether another Chaos Marine squad or some Cultist units.

I hope this helps!

[wellweee]

Just to pick up on something Learn2Eel said, Cultists might be a good idea from a fluff stand point.

Remember the fluff on the fallen is that they rarely gather in any numbers, and even with cypher present there would be very few of them. Instead they tend to be at the head of an army of cultists. So adding some in would be quite fluffy.

[Learn2Eel]

Yep, I definitely agree. Whether you want to run hordes of Cultists or smaller objective-sitting units is purely up to you.

[Anggul]

Bear in mind that The Fallen have no vehicles or spacecraft. They just mysteriously appear on planets, often hopping from one part of the galaxy to the next and no-one knows exactly how. The only way they would get vehicle support is by (as they often do) tricking the pdf or Imperial Guard on a planet. The people have no idea what they are, they just know they're glorious Astartes that aren't trying to kill them, so all The Fallen have to do is tell them that they've been sent by the Imperium in some way and they'll believe them. On the other hand they could be allied with Chaos Marines. It really depends on whether you want to play Chaos-y Fallen or Misunderstood Loyalist Fallen.