1500 Points "Minimum Scoring Unit" BA

[ElectricPaladin]

I was thinking about what Tynskel said in my late, ill-fated Blood Angels thread, about how the strength of the Blood Angels comes from tabling the opponent and protecting scoring units until the late game - kind of like Eldar, but killier. I've tossed some ideas back and forth, and here's my idea for a 1500 point list that plays with some of those concepts... kinda. As you can see, I've subverted the trope somewhat with Dante, providing me with 3 potential scoring units, though only one is of the "keep this unit hidden, jump out to score" variety.

List first, tactical description to follow:

HQ
• Commander Dante

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Meltagun & Heavy Flamer)
• 2 Sanguinary Priests w/Jump Packs, Meltabombs

Troops
• Sanguinary Guard (Chapter Banner, 1 Power Fist, 2 Infernus Pistols)
• Sanguinary Guard (Death Masks, 1 Power Fist, 2 Infernus Pistols)
• 10 Tactical Marines (Power Fist Sergeant, Flamer & Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons, Multi-Meltas

Now, I can't actually keep everything in reserve, the way I would have back in 5th edition. However, I actually have a surprising number of options.

For a game where I have one or more backfield objectives, I start with the tacs and the Baal on the table, which allows me to start with both sanguinary guard squads (one joined by Dante) in reserve, and the furioso riding the stormraven. For a game where I want to assault and claim a midfield objective, I can put the tacs in the stormraven and have one of the sanguinary guard squads start on the table to balance it out, jumping towards the opponent and hiding behind terrain.

Basically, the idea is to keep that tactical squad safe, either in the backfield or riding the stormraven, until I need it. In a pinch, however, I have two sanguinary guard squads, both of which can potentially take and hold an objective.

Now, I have my doubts about that second sanguinary guard squad. Some part of me really balks at the situation described above, where a jump squad starts on the table. It just seems like a waste. I'm seriously consider replacing them - all told, it's about 320 points worth of minis - with something I'm more comfortable deploying. I'm not sure what, though. Maybe a big bike squad?

That will take a lot of buying that I don't want to do, though. This list I can field with the sole addition of a tac squad, which I'm pretty comfortable shelling out for eventually.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear what you think, both about the list as it is, and about what I might use in place of that sanguinary guard squad.

[Aegwymourn]

To be honest I don't buy the whole "use a small army and table your opponent" philosophy in 6th edition. It might have worked in the past but now ehhh. To be fair I have neither played nor played against such and army. However if you playing with only the recommended 25-35% terrain I just don't see how you can prevent getting shot by a competent general. The first thing I do every game with my Tau is set up fire lanes and redundant kill zones.

Since I don't play blood angels I am unsure of what you would buy with 320 points that would be as killy and as mobile as Sanguinary Guard. That is half the point of using this type of list. Also their 2+ save makes them much more durable in a number of situation. Since you are not going to win by holding objectives you have only use units that are going to easily earn their points back. Perhaps a unit of Death Company? Although I would argue in this sort of list the Sanguinary Guard are probably better. Vanguard Vets would be the other unit that would complement this type of army. It would give you some early disruption with their assault off the deepstrike. As long as they don't kill/break their target till the following turn.

[ElectricPaladin]

To be honest I don't buy the whole "use a small army and table your opponent" philosophy in 6th edition. It might have worked in the past but now ehhh. To be fair I have neither played nor played against such and army. However if you playing with only the recommended 25-35% terrain I just don't see how you can prevent getting shot by a competent general. The first thing I do every game with my Tau is set up fire lanes and redundant kill zones.


Heh. I'm not convinced either - hence my reluctance to pat anything for this list that I don't already have or know I need (ie. some tacs for my currently tac-free Blood Angels).



Since I don't play blood angels I am unsure of what you would buy with 320 points that would be as killy and as mobile as Sanguinary Guard. That is half the point of using this type of list. Also their 2+ save makes them much more durable in a number of situation. Since you are not going to win by holding objectives you have only use units that are going to easily earn their points back. Perhaps a unit of Death Company? Although I would argue in this sort of list the Sanguinary Guard are probably better. Vanguard Vets would be the other unit that would complement this type of army. It would give you some early disruption with their assault off the deepstrike. As long as they don't kill/break their target till the following turn.


Like I said, my bias was towards something I could put on the table without feeling like I'm missing out on part of what I'm paying for (ie. the ability to Deep Strike). Jump vets would be even worse than sanguinary guard, since with the vets I'm paying for heroic intervention. If you don't drop the jump vets, you're a fool.

Honestly, at the moment I'm thinking of putting some scouts in. I know they're troops - which means at this point my "aggressive minimum scoring unit" list is starting to look like a "flexible tactical multiple scoring units" list - but they can infiltrate, and they're cheap. For 320 points, I can field:

• 5 Scouts w/Camo Cloaks & Sniper Rifles, (1 Heavy Bolter) Sergeant w/Locator Beacon - 140
• 5 Scouts w/Camo Cloaks, Combat Blades & Bolt Pistols (1 Heavy Bolter), Sergeant w/Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Locator Beacon - 165

Now I've got two units I can infiltrate pretty aggressively, to balance out all the stuff I want to hold in reserves. With two scout squads and a baal on the table (3 units), I can reserve one sanguinary guard squad, a tac squad, and a dreadnought (3 units). One is equipped to charge out of cover and tie up a backfield shooting unit or pop a tank, the other is equipped to shoot at things. And all that, and they can hold objectives, too! And I'd have 15 points to spend on... I dunno. Stuff.

I gotta tell you, though - scouts I'm even more leery of than... well, anything. I've never had much luck with 'em.

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's another odd idea: use the points to buy the tacs a dedicated land raider godhammer. I thought of it in the shower and actually laughed out loud.

Now I've got set of durable, mobile twin-linked lascannons. I can split the tac squad and put half in the land raider and half in the stormraven, so I've got two vectors for that last-minute objective grab than one. That also gives me two more units to put on the table to balance all the stuff I want to reserve. And it would be great to see the looks on the faces of those humble tacs when they get to ride around in a freaking land raider...

[Aegwymourn]

Here's another odd idea: use the points to buy the tacs a dedicated land raider godhammer. I thought of it in the shower and actually laughed out loud.

Now I've got set of durable, mobile twin-linked lascannons. I can split the tac squad and put half in the land raider and half in the stormraven, so I've got two vectors for that last-minute objective grab than one. That also gives me two more units to put on the table to balance all the stuff I want to reserve. And it would be great to see the looks on the faces of those humble tacs when they get to ride around in a freaking land raider...

The problem with this is in such a low model army you have nothing to bubble-wrap your land raider against anything that wants to get close to it (mostly melta, but the odd smashing MC creature is no joke). As you suggested it is about paying for rules and with the Land Raider you are paying for two with mediocre results (transport and assault). In my local meta there are a number of guys who love to run 2-3 Multi-melta attack bikes just for this reason. But things like Drop-podding Sternguard or even Grey Hunters with melta in a Rhino could turn into huge problems.

The scout idea is interesting but as you mentioned it doesn't fit the theme and if they come up against anyone who can deny cover saves they are going to suffer horribly. Nor do I think they have the "punch" for a low model count army. They are best suited to firebase armies IMO where they can site on an objective all game and plink away and never be high enough on the threat meter to warrant killing and hopefully score and objective. But in your list for the first turn or two the opponent doesn't have many options to shoot at so he is going to focus on what he can.

[ElectricPaladin]

Two more ideas for ways I could replace that second Sanguinary Guard squad:

• Jump pack librarian (flies with Dante and the remaining Sanguinary Guard, supplies psychic support with Diviniation and/or biomancy)
• 2nd Baal Predator w/heavy bolters and dozer blade
• Foot sanguinary priest (rides with the tacs)

Total: 300 points. 20 points left over to spend on... I dunno. Assorted upgrades.

For your reading convenience, the list would now look like this:

HQ
• Commander Dante
• Librarian w/Jump Pack

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Meltagun & Heavy Flamer)
• 2 Sanguinary Priests (1 w/Jump Packs, Meltabombs)

Troops
• Sanguinary Guard (Chapter Banner, 1 Power Fist, 2 Infernus Pistols)
• 10 Tactical Marines (Power Fist Sergeant, Flamer & Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons, Multi-Meltas

Idea Two

• Drop the heavy bolters from the extant Baal.
• 2nd Baal Predator w/dozer blade
• 5 Honor Guard, 4 of them with plasma guns, in a Rhino w/Dozer Blade

Total: 315 points

The list, for context:

HQ
• Commander Dante
° Honor Guard (4 Plasma Guns)
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Meltagun & Heavy Flamer)
• 2 Sanguinary Priests w/Jump Packs, Meltabombs

Troops
• Sanguinary Guard (Chapter Banner, 1 Power Fist, 2 Infernus Pistols)
• 10 Tactical Marines (Power Fist Sergeant, Flamer & Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Dozer Blade
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons, Multi-Meltas

What do you think?

Also, Tynskel... where are you, my man? You're my "minimum scoring unit" guru!

[Romwe]

I liked the Death Company suggestion. You've got enough points to bring a decent amount of them, and since they don't score, they fit your theme. If there's anything that I think your list is going to struggle with, it's a horde army. Baal Predators are cool and shooty, and all that, but really not enough by themselves. A big squad of Death Company walking up the table will both provide a reasonable number of bullets, but also provide a nice durable distraction.

[ElectricPaladin]

A big squad of Death Company walking up the table will both provide a reasonable number of bullets, but also provide a nice durable distraction.

Do you really think that the death company will survive jogging up the table? I've never tried a footslogging assault unit without a vehicle or other way to survive reaching the target. All I know is that even thunder hammer/storm shield terminators don't get foostlogged from the deployment zone, and they're one of the most durable units in the power armor arsenal.

Would you recommend giving them jump packs - even though I'm not going to deep strike them - so they could reach their targets faster?

That said, I find the idea extremely appealing, because I already own ten death company with jump packs, and any scheme that doesn't involve me buying more models is a win with me.

[Romwe]

I was thinking just on foot with bolters, but putting jump packs on them also fits your army nicely. You probably go from 15 DC, down to 10 though. As a long time BA player, I realize this is heresy, but I'm envisioning these guys as a distraction that can't be ignored. They certainly will die, but it will take a pretty concerted effort by your opponent to make them go away.

I'll try to do the math here.. Assuming nothing str 8 or greater fires at them, 15 DC will require 45 wounds to get through the power armour, then 5 of them will stand back up from FNP. So it will then take another 15 wounds, with approximately 2 standing up. Call it another 6 wounds and no FNP saves. So 66 total wounds to kill the squad off. If that's bolters firing, it requires 132 bolter hits. Against a BS 4 opponent, that requires 198 bolter shots. I'm obviously assuming perfectly average dice here, but not sure how else to extrapolate it. In a 1500pt game, that's a crap load of shooting to kill them all off. Even if someone can get through them in a couple of turns, that means the rest of your army is pretty much ignored.

The biggest dangers I can think of would be vindicators, and helldrakes. If they are shooting at your DC, then the rest of your army should be causing them a lot of harm. Could you find a way to keep both Sang Guard squads and drop the Tacs? Maybe it would work?

[Falconjab]

I realize you don't want to buy more models, but if you put 10 Death Company on foot (with Bolters and a few power weapons or fists) in a drop pod, they drop in your opponents' face on Turn 1. The biggest problem with jump packs is that you're investing 150 points (in a ten-man squad) to watch them get shot up on their way to the enemy. With a drop pod, you only pay 35 points and the delivery system is very very effective. Pop out, double tap your bolters, and then use your power weapons/fists on the next turn on whatever your opponent sends at you. Makes for an easy way to annihilate some squishy Heavy Support or Elites choice. And I guarantee your opponent will have to send something to deal with the Death Company, as long as you put them out of line of sight from at least some of his shooty units.

[Wolfshade]

I inadvertanly ran a minimum scoring BA army at the weekend and surprisingly won. I am not holding it out as a paragon of how minimum scoring games should be played but it shows that they can have success. Also it does fail in EPs desire to have jump troops.

HQ
- Terminator Librarian w/ Storm Bolter, Force Axe, Fear of the Darkness, Blood Lance

Elite
- Terminator Squad (5) w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher (joined by Libby)
- Chaplain
- Techmarine

Troop
- Death Company (5), (joined by Chaplain)
- Death Company Dread, Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer
- Scouts (5), Cammo Cloaks, 4xSnipers, 1xML

Fast
- Vanguard Vets, 1xTH, Sarge w/ Meltabomb

Heavy
- Vindicator
- Vindicator
- Vindicator

[Romwe]

Another option for the DC, is to put them in the Stormraven.

[ElectricPaladin]

Another option for the DC, is to put them in the Stormraven.


I realize you don't want to buy more models, but if you put 10 Death Company on foot (with Bolters and a few power weapons or fists) in a drop pod...

The problem with these options is that they don't solve my minimum deployed models problem. Death company in a stormraven will count as reserved. Death company in a drop pod won't count as reserved, but they don't count as deployed, either. I need something that can start on the table to balance all those things (tacs, sanguinary guard) that don't.

I guess I could put the tacs in an ordinary rhino, but part of the appeal of this whole tacs-in-a-stormraven idea is how durable it makes the tacs. Stormravens are pretty durable, what with their ceramite plating, natural flyer protection, and Skies of Blood special rule.

That said, I could try deep striking death company (with a reclusiarch as my HQ) and tacs in a stormraven (with a foot sanguinary priest to make sure they're really hard to kill) as my troops. Maybe add a terminator librarian and assault terminators in a land raider crusader as my elite hammer. I'll have to get out the codex later and see what I'd still have points for, but probably a Baal and a dreadnought also, as we have now. With that setup I've got 3 reserved squads (death company + reclusiarch, tacs + priest, dreadnought), and 2 deployed squads (terminators + librarian + land raider, Baal pred) which is legit.

This option also gives me, comparatively speaking, a lot of dakka (3 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters, 2 hurricane bolters), which makes up for my low model count and assault-heavy soldiers and means I can still play the shooting game. Not to mention air-dropping tacs into a likely spot and opening fire.

[Tynskel]

no, any squad that is placed into a transport that is required to be in reserves do not count toward the minimum units on the field. This is in the new FAQ for main rulebook.

[Tynskel]

I inadvertanly ran a minimum scoring BA army at the weekend and surprisingly won. I am not holding it out as a paragon of how minimum scoring games should be played but it shows that they can have success. Also it does fail in EPs desire to have jump troops.

HQ
- Terminator Librarian w/ Storm Bolter, Force Axe, Fear of the Darkness, Blood Lance

Elite
- Terminator Squad (5) w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher (joined by Libby)
- Chaplain
- Techmarine

Troop
- Death Company (5), (joined by Chaplain)
- Death Company Dread, Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer
- Scouts (5), Cammo Cloaks, 4xSnipers, 1xML

Fast
- Vanguard Vets, 1xTH, Sarge w/ Meltabomb

Heavy
- Vindicator
- Vindicator
- Vindicator

I like this list. Personally, I would have gone for 2 Predator Destructors w/Lascannon Sponsons, and then put a siege shield on the vindicator. However, 3 vindicators is just scary. Especially since they are FAST!

I am curious about the techmarine. They nerfed the blood angels techmarine hardcore, so I almost don't see the point of taking one. Are you using it to represent a 'unit' on the board? (for null deployment purposes?)

[Romwe]

The problem with these options is that they don't solve my minimum deployed models problem. Death company in a stormraven will count as reserved. Death company in a drop pod won't count as reserved, but they don't count as deployed, either. I need something that can start on the table to balance all those things (tacs, sanguinary guard) that don't.

Agree. I prefer them on the table, with or without jump packs anyways. If you put them in the Stormraven, they won't really be much of a distraction.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, how's about this:

HQ
• Reclusiarch w/Jump Pack & Meltabombs
• Librarian (Foot)

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists,
• 2 Sanguinary Priests (Foot)

Troops
• 10 Tactical Marines (Flamer & Heavy Bolter), Sergeant w/Power Fist
• 10 Death Company (1 Power Fist, 2 Hand Flamers) w/Jump Packs

Fast Attack
• 1 Baal Predator (Dakka) w/Heavy Bolters & Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven (Multi-Melta & Assault Cannon)
• 5 Devastators (4 Missile Launchers), Sergeant w/Power Weapon
° Razorback w/Dozer Blade & Heavy Bolters

I've only got ten scoring boots on the table, but they're supported by a librarian (divination has many powerful defensive and support abilities) and a sanguinary priest (feel no pain) and they ride in a stormraven, which both makes them hard to kill and enables me to deliver them to one or two objectives late in the game. Everything else in the army also has feel no pain, thanks to the second sanguinary priest hanging out with the devastators and the native feel no pain enjoyed by death company. Missile launchers on the devs is a wonderful choice, because they can blast light infantry AND threaten vehicles. In the new codex, I'll scrounge the points to give them flakk missiles, freeing my stormraven to only engage those fliers I'm confident it can kill.

Best of all, I can field this list with a single tac squad box and a sanguinary priest (I have three, but two are assembled with jump packs IIRC).

What do you think?

[Wolfshade]

I am curious about the techmarine. They nerfed the blood angels techmarine hardcore, so I almost don't see the point of taking one. Are you using it to represent a 'unit' on the board? (for null deployment purposes?)

There was 1 reason, and 1 reason alone for the Techmarine, Bolster Defence. I was expecting an objective game, and I assumed my opponent would have barrage weapons so the idea was to pop the scouts in bolstered defense with cammo cloaks giving them a 2+ cover save.

Additionally, I suppose he could run around trying to restore hull points to the Vindis.

[Romwe]

I like your first list better, at least from a feel perspective. The last may be the better list though. I don't think either brings enough of anything that will prevent your opponent from focusing on your scoring units though. I'm very curious how you do with them. Hope you'll post an update.

[Tynskel]

There was 1 reason, and 1 reason alone for the Techmarine, Bolster Defence. I was expecting an objective game, and I assumed my opponent would have barrage weapons so the idea was to pop the scouts in bolstered defense with cammo cloaks giving them a 2+ cover save.

Additionally, I suppose he could run around trying to restore hull points to the Vindis.

perhaps, however, the techmarine is pretty slow. I guess you could go with a jump pack, however, I don't have the codex in front of me, but I think that reduces the capability of restoring hull points/weapons. I'd more use it as a stumbling block to prevent things from pwning your scouts, or as a aide to your Death Company as they advance.


Another option is simply to take a bunker for the scouts, instead of a techmarine.

[ElectricPaladin]

Well, with the new FAQ, all versions of this list just got a lot more attractive. I was previously miffed at the idea of using ordinary infantry in the stormtalon and losing the special benefit jump infantry get through Skies of Blood. Now that that rule is totally nerfed... I'm more comfortable living with cheap scoring tacs as the stormraven's payload.

[ElectricPaladin]

Today, I bought my first ever tactical squad box slated for induction into the Blood Angels - actually, my first tactical squad ever.

It doesn't feel like selling out. It doesn't feel like anything at all... :o.

[Wolfshade]

I have 9 tactical squads, but only 2 assault squads, codex! :)