Using Split fire to destroy vehicle then disembarked unit

[JMichael]

This one came up.

Unit has Split Fire (e.g. Deathwing Terminator Squad).
Split fire rule is on p42 and states that the unit makes a Ld test. If passed nominate 1 model to shoot. That model immediatly makes a shooting attack. After that attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting from the rest of the unit.

So, could the singe model fire at a transport, and assuming it was destroyed can the rest of the squad now fire on the unit that had been inside (and is now presumably disembarked or sitting in the crater)?


I feel they could as the first model's shooting is conmpletely resolved before the rest of the unit shoots.
At what point must the target be declared? Before any of the models shoot, or just before the particular elements (i.e. 1 model vs squad)?

[walrusman999]

Yes you should be able to attack the now disembarked unit. The shooting attacks are: Declare target> Measure range> Roll to hit> Roll to wound> Allocate wounds> roll for saves> remove casualties. So in essence you should be able to have the single model shoot a transport, potentially destroy it, and the rest of the squad shoots at the now disembarked unit because it hasn't declared who/what it is shooting yet.

[JMichael]

I completely agree.
But here the argument against doing this.

Snap Fire - 'When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit.'

Note that it says when the unit 'shoots'.

p12 Shooting Sequence:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose a target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

So if step 3 is the actual 'shooting' step then the target must already be chosen.

[Tynskel]

I believe the unit's shooting all happens at the same time, whether individual models are shooting at different targets or not. If they actually happen separately, then you could shoot the transport, then shoot the stuff inside with the rest of the terminators.

Another example is the Land Raider Power of the Machine Spirit. Again, they must be two valid targets at the time of firing.

[DarkLink]

A unit's shooting is simultaneous. At the time of the split fire, the unit inside is not yet disembarked, and thus isn't a viable target for the rest of the unit to shoot. Just because you resolve the split fire shot first doesn't mean it doesn't still count as being simultaneous.

[Aegwymourn]

I think you answered your own question when you listed the rule for Split Fire. The key words to me are resolved. You shoot one target with the split fire model all the way till it is resolved. Then shoot the squad at something else. To me it looks exactly like you can shoot a transport then once the split fire is resolved choose a different legal target (the now disembarked squad).

[JMichael]

On another note and to the argument that it all happens simultaneously (i.e. can't shoot the squad after the vehicle is destroyed)

What if I want to shoot the single weapon at squad A and the rest of my unit at Squad B (which is behind squad A and thus would normally have a 5+ obscured save). Single weapon kills Squad A. Would Squad B still get an obscured cover save because they were behind Squad A when the 1st weapon shot?

[JMichael]

A unit's shooting is simultaneous. At the time of the split fire, the unit inside is not yet disembarked, and thus isn't a viable target for the rest of the unit to shoot. Just because you resolve the split fire shot first doesn't mean it doesn't still count as being simultaneous.

It seems to me that the Special Rule - Split Fire provides special circumstances that alter the rule.

[walrusman999]

When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. To do so, the unit must first take a leadership test. If the test is failed, the unit shoots as normal. If the test is passed, choose one model in the unit and immediately make a shooting attack with it. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target.


That is an exact quote from the rule book. Now for all those sticklers about the word "immediately," this would mean that the single individual, that can pick a different target, gets to shoot first. The single model is considered a separate unit because otherwise he would conform to the standard unit rules and be forced to shoot normally. The whole unit doesn't shoot simultaneously because you have to designate a separate target for the remaining unit individuals to shoot at.

Potentially i could also argue that the whole squad shoots at the transport, snapfire guy shoots first, blows up the transport, thus there is no more transport and the squad must choose a different target, IE the now disembarked squad.

[Nabterayl]

I think JMichael is right that this is an exception to the normal rule of simultaneous fire. I see no other way to read "Once this shooting attack is resolved."

[DarkLink]

I can buy into that.

[JMichael]

Just to add another situation that is similar imo, but takes the transport out of the equation. But for anyone that feels the unit's shooting happens simultaneously.

Chaos Lord (A) is hidden behind a plague-ridden tank so Deathwing squad ( B ) cannot see him.

( A ) [smelly tank] ( B )

Deathwing unit announces Split Fire and passes their Ld check.
They have a Cyclone launcher that shoots at the Whirlwind and causes it to explode.
The Chaos Lord is now in the open, can the rest of the Deathwing now shoot at him?

Do you feel that the entire squad must measure and declare their target BEFORE the Split Fire event happens?

[walrusman999]

Even if it exploded, normally you would leave tanks and such on the table as they now count toward terrain. Or replace it with something similar to simulate a wrecked vehicle being there. He shouldn't be in the open. If you do remove the tank and ignore the fact that he should still be in cover, then you should be fine shooting at him. As for declaring not necessarily because you get to shoot with one person first, and then MUST pick a different target so you cant measure because you cannot pick before the single model shoots. His shot could change what you plan on picking.

Example above, if you didn't destroy the tank, you cant shoot at the lord, ergo you couldn't pick him to shoot at (if you would remove the tank from play without being considered terrain).

[Aegwymourn]

I believe you only leave the tank if it is wrecked. If you score a 6 on the penetration table it is removed. Don't have my book handy though.

[JMichael]

If the vehicle explodes you to replace it with scattered wreckage or a crater...but either way is mute for the example (open vs cover instead of out of LoS)

[Nabterayl]

Doesn't really matter what the intervening model is; the question is, if the first person's shooting removes it, can the rest of the squad select a target with the benefit of their new line of sight?

And you know what, I'm going to reverse myself here. Because Split Fire says "choose one model in the unit and immediately make a shooting attack with it. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target" (emphasis mine).

Note the difference in wording: "make a shooting attack" versus "resolve the shooting attacks." "Make" indicates that we go through the whole shooting attack process, from target selection on up, but "resolve" indicates that the target has already been declared, range has already been checked, and so forth. So it appears to me, upon closer consideration, that the process is this:

Unit picks a target.
Split Fire Man picks a [different] target.
Split Fire Man resolves his attack.
Rest of unit resolves its attack.
Hence, no, the remainder of the unit cannot select its target after the split fire attack is resolved. Which also means you cannot pop a transport with the split fire attack and then attack the passengers with the rest of the unit.

[Xenith]

When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. To do so, the unit must first take a leadership test. If the test is failed, the unit shoots as normal. If the test is passed, choose one model in the unit and immediately make a shooting attack with it. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target.

To me, the section that I have bolded implies that the rest of the unit needs to have picked a target before you choose to split fire.

If you shoot the split firing weapon first, before declaring a target for the rest of the unit, then you are breaking the split fire rule.

[JMichael]

Here's the only mention I found that actually says the unit fires simultaneously (got from another forum, to be fair).

P80 Right side 3rd paragraph: "As all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, a squad cannot wreck a transport then fire at its occupants."


I think at this point I have been convinced that while the order that shots are resolved may be different, the unit itself is still ultimately shooting at the same time. It would indeed be confusing to roll both the Split Fire and other squad shooting at the same time at different targets.

[FortheEmperor!]

If the vehicle explodes you to replace it with scattered wreckage or a crater...but either way is mute for the example (open vs cover instead of out of LoS)

A crater is a HOLE in the GROUND. I think it is very funny that we get to hide behind a hole in the ground!! LOL! I think he should get cover if he jumps into the hole, but not for standing behind it!

I think all the terminators should shoot at the same time.

[Wolfshade]

A crater isn't just an hole in the ground. If you look at crater formation you'll see that they are always formed with higer ground around the impact zone.

http://deepimpact.umd.edu/webdings/icons/sci-craterform.jpg

[L192837465]

Page 80: As all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, a squad cannot
wreck a Transport and then file at its occupants. However, if a
Transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot it
that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers

No you can't split fire on the transport and the unit inside.

[rle68]

A unit's shooting is simultaneous. At the time of the split fire, the unit inside is not yet disembarked, and thus isn't a viable target for the rest of the unit to shoot. Just because you resolve the split fire shot first doesn't mean it doesn't still count as being simultaneous.


you are quite correct and i agree but for others... however the game is not played that way.. units that have split fire may choose to fire at different targets and game mechanics dictate that the first group fires then the second group you resolve the first set of firing before the second it is still simo, but worked out at different times... if i was to accept your premise that i cant shoot them when they become targets then in your worlds id have to declare what all my units are going to shoot at before i fire one shot and then i cant change my targets if that unit is destroyed? and we all know that is not how the game is played

[Wolfshade]

double post

[L192837465]

you are quite correct and i agree but for others... however the game is not played that way.. units that have split fire may choose to fire at different targets and game mechanics dictate that the first group fires then the second group you resolve the first set of firing before the second it is still simo, but worked out at different times... if i was to accept your premise that i cant shoot them when they become targets then in your worlds id have to declare what all my units are going to shoot at before i fire one shot and then i cant change my targets if that unit is destroyed? and we all know that is not how the game is played


Stop being a dolt, the rules clearly state (page 80, I posted above) that when that unit shoots, you have to designate viable units as two targets, as the squad isn't on the table when that squad fires, you can't select them. Any other unit in your army can, because they are now a viable unit.

To try and argue any other way means you're trying to game the system or just be a dick.

[Nabterayl]

if i was to accept your premise that i cant shoot them when they become targets then in your worlds id have to declare what all my units are going to shoot at before i fire one shot and then i cant change my targets if that unit is destroyed? and we all know that is not how the game is played

Perhaps you misunderstood what DarkLink was saying. Neither he nor anybody else in this thread is suggesting that all shooting occurs simultaneously. It very clearly does not - not as a convention of play; the rule is that units shoot sequentially. However, all models in a given unit shoot simultaneously. That is also not a convention of play, but a rule. As we spent two pages demonstrating before this thread was resurrected, Split Fire does not overturn that rule, and does not purport to.

[lobster-overlord]

Can a Tau Crisis suit unit with a target lock do this? I know the wording is different because it makes specific reference to the 4th ed targeting priority rules as being needed. But still, think of it as that in no rule has GW ever allowed for a unit to fire at different times, but only different targets with all being rolled simultaneously. Isn't it that the unit in the vehicle is considered the same target as the vehicle for all other purposes, and this new rule says they may pick different targets, thus the subsequently disembarked unit is still the same as the spilt model's target, thus ineligible based on that alone.

[Nabterayl]

Not sure what you mean specifically by "this," but no, I see no basis for a target lock to allow a model in a Tau unit of any kind to select a target that only becomes visible after the rest of that model's unit's shooting is resolved.