Necrons being "Broken"

[pnkfld7892]

I've noticed on a lot of the threads that the Necron codex is quoted as being "broken." Why do you guys feel this way? I've read through it(as i'm starting necrons as my second army) and it seems fairly balanced, the units are on the pricy side and while they shoot like space marines, they are slow as all hell in CC.

[Deadlift]

It's not really broken, just well written :)

I think the main gripe is the Nightscythe, you get a bloody good flyer there for 100 pts, and you can spam the hell out of them. Avoid doing that and I can't see the problem. Don't forget everyone cried about the GK codex and purifier lists. They don't anymore.

However the Chaos Marines Dex certainly does not have people moaning about it, could because it's not written by Matt Ward lol.

[DarkLink]

Flyer rules in general are poorly written. The fact that Necrons have most of them doesn't mean the problem is Necrons themselves.

[Themaninthegreenhat]

one of the main issues i keep encountering is the "plane go boom-boom, necron go fine-fine" as most factions would have to do a pretty steep save to survive, necrons (not actually being in the craft) are fine.

Now ,gameplay mechanics aside, i see this being backed in the fluff. Necrons aren't "In" the nightscythe. They are being teleported to a location close to it, and when it crashes it zooms them in on it last cordinate.

[eldargal]

Necrons aren't broken, as has been mentioned the nightscythe is obscenely underpriced for what they do. It makes playing Necrons a bit of a hassle. This not limited to the Necron codex though. The Vendetta is much worse in my opinion as they can come in squadrons.

[OrksOrksOrks]

People say the flyers are broken, but really, if someone wants to haul 9 of those night scythe models all the way to a tournament, they deserve it, I only use the one Dakka Jet now, its not great but I can't be bothered taking a seperate case just for flyers.

The thing about flyers is the people complaining obviously aren't playing too many games, flyers are great on paper, but in the game, they're easy enough to mitigate, the enforced movement and the 90 degree movement mean you can limit what they can actually attack before they have to zoom off the board.

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. Necrons are far, far from broken.

What you will find however, are plenty of anecdotal reports from sore losers who have suddenly started losing games. Why? Because Necrons do very well against Elite armies which were 'du jour' for a while. Tank spam? I got Gauss. MEQ? Eat Tesla, and feel your lack of numbers!

What they haven't figured is just how badly we do in HTH. Sure Lychguard can be nasty, but for what I'm getting they are extremely expensive (500 points for a squad of 10 and a Scythe to get them around...). Mindshackle Scarabs? Range from tasty-useless depending on who gets infected.

And we're easier than ever to put down and keep down. Gone are the heady heydays of T5 Immortals with an Orb, Spyder and Monolith to keep them going, and going, and going etc.

[imperialpower]

No they are not 'broken' it is just that some players like to b***h about broken armies, others like to b***h about there own army been rubbish, some even like to b***h about the rule book been s**t. At the end of the day some people just like to b***h and the best thing to do is to ignore them and have fun with like minded people who also play the game becuase they enjoy it.

[Defenestratus]

I've noticed on a lot of the threads that the Necron codex is quoted as being "broken." Why do you guys feel this way? I've read through it(as i'm starting necrons as my second army) and it seems fairly balanced, the units are on the pricy side and while they shoot like space marines, they are slow as all hell in CC.

My complaints about Necrons aren't even centered around the flyers. My nightwings make quick work of their pathetic flyers but I understand that not everyone has access to the anti air that Eldar have.

My complaint comes from what you pointed out with them being "slow" in close combat.

I think you'll find that Necrons can go toe to toe in assault with the best "assulty" armies out there. Wraiths specifically are some of the best assault units out there. Combined with those assault jump troops they have, and access to cheap characters that can strike at I2 with AP2, assaulting necrons is a scary proposition honestly. That doesn't even bring scarabs into the mix.

The other issue I have is the widespread ability of the Necrons to take chronometrons. They are easily the best deal in the whole list in my opinion.

We'll be back is so much better now despite what people may think. Being able to get back up after shooting, then after close combat again is simply great - add to the fact that it doesn't matter how the wounds were caused and that power has seen a great buff. Additionally, the rules surrounding where to put the resurrected models give the necron player a great amount of tactical flexibility.

All in all the necrons are infuriating to fight against especially with my blood angels. There just doesn't seem to be a weakness that can be exploited and it ends up being a game where I'm on the defensive from the very onset of the game.

I wouldn't say that Necrons are broken.

I just have zero fun playing against them because they just frustrate me to no end.

[Mr Mystery]

My complaints about Necrons aren't even centered around the flyers. My nightwings make quick work of their pathetic flyers but I understand that not everyone has access to the anti air that Eldar have.

My complaint comes from what you pointed out with them being "slow" in close combat.

I think you'll find that Necrons can go toe to toe in assault with the best "assulty" armies out there. Wraiths specifically are some of the best assault units out there. Combined with those assault jump troops they have, and access to cheap characters that can strike at I2 with AP2, assaulting necrons is a scary proposition honestly. That doesn't even bring scarabs into the mix.

The other issue I have is the widespread ability of the Necrons to take chronometrons. They are easily the best deal in the whole list in my opinion.

We'll be back is so much better now despite what people may think. Being able to get back up after shooting, then after close combat again is simply great - add to the fact that it doesn't matter how the wounds were caused and that power has seen a great buff. Additionally, the rules surrounding where to put the resurrected models give the necron player a great amount of tactical flexibility.

All in all the necrons are infuriating to fight against especially with my blood angels. There just doesn't seem to be a weakness that can be exploited and it ends up being a game where I'm on the defensive from the very onset of the game.

I wouldn't say that Necrons are broken.

I just have zero fun playing against them because they just frustrate me to no end.

Though you are playing with an outmoded Codex. Which again seems to be the source of many complaints. Necrons got a good update, other armies need one. Naturally they will struggle. (not a dig at Defenestratus btw!)

[Phototoxin]

They can melee better than anyone (lords, MSS etc), are faster, tougher, better firepower. Their only weaknesses are lack of range and lack of tough vehicles (the monolith being overpriced for what it is)
Also if you compare a nightscythe to say a nephilim jetfighter you can see why people rage over it.

[Aegwymourn]

A lot of my issues with the Necrons codex comes with the fact that their abilities cannot be broken down into GW's simple point mechanic. My first example will be the humble Necron warrior with a gauss flayer. Now as you pointed out it is basically shoots like a space marine in most respects, except for the fact that it can glance any vehicle on a 6 for amour penetration. In most games this rarely has an impact. However when I run my dual land raider Black Templars list I can no longer move my 265 point vehicle anywhere near your much cheaper unit of Necron warriors. The codex is filled with examples of these sort of special rules (will be back, quantum shielding, tesla, etc.). The fact that Necrons get these special rules isn't the problem it is the inability to inappropriately price them simply by their nature.

[Mr Mystery]

A lot of my issues with the Necrons codex comes with the fact that their abilities cannot be broken down into GW's simple point mechanic. My first example will be the humble Necron warrior with a gauss flayer. Now as you pointed out it is basically shoots like a space marine in most respects, except for the fact that it can glance any vehicle on a 6 for amour penetration. In most games this rarely has an impact. However when I run my dual land raider Black Templars list I can no longer move my 265 point vehicle anywhere near your much cheaper unit of Necron warriors. The codex is filled with examples of these sort of special rules (will be back, quantum shielding, tesla, etc.). The fact that Necrons get these special rules isn't the problem it is the inability to inappropriately price them simply by their nature.

Except you can, but you choose not to. Bung it forwards, disembark, charge. Lots of dead warriors, and no threat to your tank from that squad.....

[Aegwymourn]

The problem with that is that they front portion containing the ramp is actually recessed from the hull leaving just enough room that even with a perfect charge. I cannot make it to combat without suffering at least a round of shooting from that unit of warriors which will cause at least a hull point or two. Any decent Necron general can use this to their advantage in any number situations to help control the board/objectives. This is what I mean when there isn't a way to accurately measure how many points some of the abilities in the Necron codex are worth. I'd also like to point out my other examples. Look at the mechanics of Will Be Back and conga-lining your way around the board due to how models can be placed. Or how Quantum Shield can be incredibly effective one game and the next have almost no impact. Like I said before it is not the fact that they have the special rules it is there is no particular way to measure them in the GW point system since their impact is so random on a game by game basis. (note I don't use random in the dice rolling sense but in there are to many differing variables to account for each game. i.e. different lists/armies, terrain, objectives)

Now I don't think Necrons are broken or overpowered (perhaps I should have prefaced my previous post with that). But I do find a lot of their unique special rules somewhat irksome since they are so hard to quantify from a point perspective. Do I think they are all "fluffy" and appropriate, sure. But they are the army, that I can think of, to have a large number of truly unique rules. Most other armies give one version or another of general special rules.

[Learn2Eel]

Having looked at the codex thoroughly, as well as studying some of the tournament lists that are all the rage now, I've come to the conclusion that Necrons are hardly broken; much like Grey Knights, they are only a really cheesy army if you spam certain units. Mostly though, that comes down to the flyer rules and the Night Scythe not being adjusted to match other 6th Edition flyers, which can be considered either a lack of foresight by the author or an oversight by those behind the new rulebook.

The codex is finely balanced, and also obviously durable - Necrons do pay for that, though it goes without saying that they can get some extremely cheap sources of devastating firepower - such as the Annihilation Barge - with very little drawbacks. Does this make them broken? No. I've quite often seen very fast assault armies table Necron players because the Necrons simply aren't able to deal with that many bodies so quickly. Whilst they do have some nasty assault power in the form of Destroyer Lords, Wraiths and Mindshackle Scarabs, for the most part they suffer heavily from their low Initiative and few attacks. As good as their vehicles are, once you get that penetrating hit through it often spells their doom due to being open-topped. Not to mention that the codex has a rather significant lack of long-range firepower.

Sure, Necron Airforces and Wraithwings can be cheesy beyond belief, but that is more down to players abusing the codex than anything else; something which you can do with every army book, not just Necrons. Mostly I think their reputation is based on the "Matt Ward stigma" methinks.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Do wish the Airforce and wraithwing armies had some point boosts to make them more balanced.

[Learn2Eel]

Agreed, aside from that, I think the codex is mostly fine. The Annihilation Barge is probably under-costed by quite a bit, some people might say it is fair but when a usual Necron army has three of them, you can tell there is something up. Mind you, the Doomsday Ark and some of the other choices aren't that great either.

Getting back to the Matt Ward hate, you don't see anywhere near as many people complain about Space Wolves, eh? In a lot of cases, they are even worse...
Hell, even the Heldrake (excuse the pun) doesn't draw flak like the Dreadknight, despite typically being far more deadly.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

It is mostly fine I agree. infact I think it is one of the more balanced books - there are very few "bad" options surprisingly, flayed ones are about as bad as any of the options get IMO. Even the backround isn't that bad either and in some cases it is even an improvement. I guess I would say I am neither a fan or "hater" of Mat Ward, but I think the codex is mostly pretty good - there are ones that are far more overpowered and underpowered out there.

[walrusman999]

I think the Necron Codex is pretty balanced. If you want to complain about the flyers then just wait until all the other codices get their flyers and we will see how unbalanced the Necrons are. You guys need to realize that flyers is the way the game is headed and if you are going to complain about flyers then you need to get with the times, uptheshutfk and figure out a way to beat it instead of complaining. As for wraith spam, just shoot them enough and you shouldn't have an issue. He is bound to fail his saves sometime.

I'm not a Matt ward hater, nor do I particularly like him. I think that the codex writers should collaborate more to develop more well rounded codices and to complete them faster. If you have more guys working on one codex it will get done faster then having one guy try to do the whole thing himself. Plus, you won't have issues with codices being "broken" because everyone looks at it with a different perspective, someone is bound to say something if there is a unit that really is all-powerful.

[Learn2Eel]

It is mostly fine I agree. infact I think it is one of the more balanced books - there are very few "bad" options surprisingly, flayed ones are about as bad as any of the options get IMO. Even the backround isn't that bad either and in some cases it is even an improvement. I guess I would say I am neither a fan or "hater" of Mat Ward, but I think the codex is mostly pretty good - there are ones that are far more overpowered and underpowered out there.

Yeah, and even Flayed Ones aren't a terrible unit, they just aren't that good.


I think the Necron Codex is pretty balanced. If you want to complain about the flyers then just wait until all the other codices get their flyers and we will see how unbalanced the Necrons are. You guys need to realize that flyers is the way the game is headed and if you are going to complain about flyers then you need to get with the times, uptheshutfk and figure out a way to beat it instead of complaining. As for wraith spam, just shoot them enough and you shouldn't have an issue. He is bound to fail his saves sometime.

I'm not a Matt ward hater, nor do I particularly like him. I think that the codex writers should collaborate more to develop more well rounded codices and to complete them faster. If you have more guys working on one codex it will get done faster then having one guy try to do the whole thing himself. Plus, you won't have issues with codices being "broken" because everyone looks at it with a different perspective, someone is bound to say something if there is a unit that really is all-powerful.

Not complaining at all, mostly just making the observation that either the Necron flyers were designed without foresight or the rulebook authors didn't stop to think how much the changes would make 5th edition flyers relatively unbalanced compared to 6th edition ones. I think it is more so the former, as the Heldrake is quite over-powered at the moment, with the Dark Talon and Nephilim being the only really weak fliers in the game presently that I can think of. As for wraith spam, it depends on the army they come against - elite armies will struggle big time, whilst high model count shooty armies, such as Imperial Guard, will do just fine.

Codices are a collaborative effort mate, in effect, Matt Ward and the codex 'authors' are just the project leads. Extensive testing and re-balancing goes on before codices are released, the main issue is that codex teams often won't find little details that get exploited - such as Psybolt Ammunition on Rifleman Dreadnoughts. Though given the reports the Chaos codex was rushed somewhat - given the rumoured siege Land Raider didn't make the cut - it may also be an issue of time. It also comes down to what they think about certain units - I'm sure if they really cared about balancing everything, Khorne Berzerkers and Thousand Sons would have been adjusted quite a bit. Again though, it doesn't bother me too much.

[White Tiger88]

People complain about Necrons???? Just wait till Guard & Ultrasmurfs get a new book!

[Learn2Eel]

I'd be more worried about Eldar lol :p

[DrLove42]

You don't need to be worried about Eldar. Its a Phil Kelly book.

its going to be balenced and fluffy as hell, with some very punchy units, but not to the level that the other "top tier" armies are

Tau...now Tau could be interesting. A gun line army, in a edition where gun lines are king, being written by the guy who made the "leafblower" possible

[Learn2Eel]

It was just a joke dude haha.
Still, I think everyone has "fond" memories of the un-killable Eldar Falcon lists.....not to mention S10 T8 W3 monstrous creatures which are cheap as chips, and dirty psychic powers :p
Mostly just making light of the fact that some people I know absolutely abhor Eldar for some reason or another.

Yep, agreed on Tau. Still, the same guy also wrote Tyranids.....never know with him, though his recent Fantasy books have been very good, so I'm very much confident he will do a fine job.

[Demonus]

I think the Necron Codex is pretty balanced. If you want to complain about the flyers then just wait until all the other codices get their flyers and we will see how unbalanced the Necrons are. You guys need to realize that flyers is the way the game is headed and if you are going to complain about flyers then you need to get with the times, uptheshutfk and figure out a way to beat it instead of complaining. As for wraith spam, just shoot them enough and you shouldn't have an issue. He is bound to fail his saves sometime.

I'm not a Matt ward hater, nor do I particularly like him. I think that the codex writers should collaborate more to develop more well rounded codices and to complete them faster. If you have more guys working on one codex it will get done faster then having one guy try to do the whole thing himself. Plus, you won't have issues with codices being "broken" because everyone looks at it with a different perspective, someone is bound to say something if there is a unit that really is all-powerful.


Exactly. How do you kill 3++ save wraiths? throw a bucket of dice at them. Hell i had 6 obliterated by a squad of DA shooting like 40 shots or something silly at them. At the end of the day, you kill them the same way you kill any 3+ power armor army. Lots of shots. Even if they do get you in cc, chances are they MAY get a rend on you. I typically get 1 rend per 4-5 wraiths in a round of attacks. Rest of my shots are ap- so even guardsman can save.

Im not one of those guys that plays 6+ fliers in my list, but even so, they are armor 11. Not exactly hard to burn down with ADL quad gun, or some lucky shots from your foot guys. Or if you are blessed as such, bring your own flier. Hell drakes are great for burning down NS if you happen to play Chaos. Vector strike one and then shoot the other.

Anyway Im not a fan of those that b*tch about broken codexes(codices). Well balanced does not equal broken.

[Mr Mystery]

Those who blame a book for their loss need to assess their level of ego if you ask me.

Every game I've ever lost, I've been able to look back at and spot glaring tactical errors I made....

[jimmyriddle]

As a fairly new player, I have found Necrons the hardest to beat. But not because they are broken, but purely because they seem to have lots and lots of special rules and I don't own the codex/played long enough to know them. Take the example given above, the wraiths, they have the 3++ and the whip coils reducing my initiative. This destroyed me when I played them last time (also my first against them), not because they are broken, but because I stupidly put a high S low A unit against them.
Yes it made me look silly, and was annoying, but I know for next time, like how I learnt that against an all teminator army, sit back and shoot, and the huge numbers of saves will make them drop.
Necrons probably just attract more moaning because they need more knowledge to play against them efficiently.

[Picek]

i disagree with you

Necrons ARE broken

why ?

First - the best troops choice in game - Immortal
guy with 10 ld,wicked tesla carabine in hand (what a moron comes with idea that tesla ability works on snap shots!), ressurection protocol - all of that for only 16 pkt per model

Another thing is mind-f.... scrabs - becouse of that crap just no cc character have a chance

Destroyer lord - guy that with wraith combinated make one of the best cc unit - fast , durable and hitting hard

Night scythe i will not even mention

and at the end Annihiliation barge - 90 pkt for vehicle with nice fire power, good durability and quite mobile - no other army have such cheap and good choice

at the end - as CSM player i don't have a big problem with necrons - 9 oblitators make then piss in the pants (aside with khorne lord with spawns), but as most of ward codecies - Necrons are broken , mostly due to lack of disadvantages, and under prices units

ps. i forgot - Necrons as army that can put most of flyers also have the best aa weapon - annihilation barge - that about balance

[Mr Mystery]

Why not try engaging us in hand to hand? See how long our average units last (not long).

And Annihilation Barge? Resilient? Dude it's open topped. Dead easy to drop.

But hey, why not just whine about it? Not like creating a suitable strategy will do anything...

[White Tiger88]

i disagree with you

Necrons ARE broken

why ?

First - the best troops choice in game - Immortal
guy with 10 ld,wicked tesla carabine in hand (what a moron comes with idea that tesla ability works on snap shots!), ressurection protocol - all of that for only 16 pkt per model

Another thing is mind-f.... scrabs - becouse of that crap just no cc character have a chance

Destroyer lord - guy that with wraith combinated make one of the best cc unit - fast , durable and hitting hard

Night scythe i will not even mention

and at the end Annihiliation barge - 90 pkt for vehicle with nice fire power, good durability and quite mobile - no other army have such cheap and good choice

at the end - as CSM player i don't have a big problem with necrons - 9 oblitators make then piss in the pants (aside with khorne lord with spawns), but as most of ward codecies - Necrons are broken , mostly due to lack of disadvantages, and under prices units

ps. i forgot - Necrons as army that can put most of flyers also have the best aa weapon - annihilation barge - that about balance

All i see is crying.......Just learn to beat them! Necrons have no chance in hell in close combat! You could also just Bomb them off the planet with fliers that are half the price of there's and cooler!

[walrusman999]

i disagree with you

Necrons ARE broken

why ?

First - the best troops choice in game - Immortal
guy with 10 ld,wicked tesla carabine in hand (what a moron comes with idea that tesla ability works on snap shots!), ressurection protocol - all of that for only 16 pkt per model

Another thing is mind-f.... scrabs - becouse of that crap just no cc character have a chance

Destroyer lord - guy that with wraith combinated make one of the best cc unit - fast , durable and hitting hard

Night scythe i will not even mention

and at the end Annihiliation barge - 90 pkt for vehicle with nice fire power, good durability and quite mobile - no other army have such cheap and good choice

at the end - as CSM player i don't have a big problem with necrons - 9 oblitators make then piss in the pants (aside with khorne lord with spawns), but as most of ward codecies - Necrons are broken , mostly due to lack of disadvantages, and under prices units

ps. i forgot - Necrons as army that can put most of flyers also have the best aa weapon - annihilation barge - that about balance


Necrons arn't broken for all the reasons Mr. Mystery and White tiger listed. Plus you can only field 9 flyers and Your flyers suck compared to Imperial Guard fielding 9 Vendettas or 3 Vendettas and 6 Valkyries. You have no chance. Plus Valkyries will just drop pie plates on them all game. And if all they use is Tesla then the Flyers can even drop into hover mode without much of a problem to unleash holy fire upon them.

Next time you face a necron player try changing your list to counter his. Otherwise you can keep complaining and no one will care.

[Defenestratus]

Why not try engaging us in hand to hand? See how long our average units last (not long).

And Annihilation Barge? Resilient? Dude it's open topped. Dead easy to drop.

But hey, why not just whine about it? Not like creating a suitable strategy will do anything...


I've tried assaulting them in close combat with my blood angels.

My sarg usually decides to the go psycho and attack his own guys, causing more casualties to my own guys than the necrons do. Because Necrons are WS4 and T4, I end up putting a crap amount of wounds on the unit and because my sarg killed most of my guys, we stay locked in combat - all the while more of the necrons I killed get back up. The body count on my side rises while being unable to do anything about the fact that my sarg literally is punching himself in the face, or sitting out of combat entirely.

Or I charge a into a unit that has a lord with a scythe, challenge with my sarg, he gets killed because he's either at I1 because he's got a fist or an axe, or because his power sword is AP3 and the lord has a 2+ save, meanwhile the lord has an Str 7 AP2 armorbane weapon that carves my skull open - then the rest of the squad doesn't do enough damage to actually make the 'crons break and run and the same thing plays out all over again where I kill necrons, they get back up and I slowly lose assault marines.

Thats just trying to assault normal units. Lychguard, wraiths or scarabs I still can't figure out how to deal with as a BA player. I try things like changing my Baals to flamestorm cannons but they get gaussed to death before they can get close enough to kill the little scarabs or warriors - or the Stormlord does D6 f-ing hits on my side armor (last game we played, that ******* stormlord blew up 3 predators and a dreadnought with that cheesey lightning power while sitting in a corner of the board that was literally inaccessible and blocked off by terrain)

Fact of the matter is, "assaulting" Necrons isn't as easy as it sounds. They have access to AP2 weapons that strike at > I1 which is really what you need in 6th edition 40k, plus the ability to get back up and have rerolls literally it seems all over the board, every phase.

Its simply not fun to play against. At all.

[Mr Mystery]

You are aware MSS are randomised as to who the affect? They are useful, but not as deadly in my experience as many people fear.

Break us in combat, and nobody gets back up.

Necrons benefit from decent synergy. So look to break it. Annihilation Barges are easy to drop, so do so. Them gone, my firepower gets horribly stretched when they've gone.

Triarch Stalkers? Gorgeous model, but so easily knackered I'm put off. Blow off my gun, and it's horribly useless for the rest of the game!

[Uncle Nutsy]

i disagree with you

Necrons ARE broken

why ?

First - the best troops choice in game - Immortal
guy with 10 ld,wicked tesla carabine in hand (what a moron comes with idea that tesla ability works on snap shots!), ressurection protocol - all of that for only 16 pkt per model

Another thing is mind-f.... scrabs - becouse of that crap just no cc character have a chance

Destroyer lord - guy that with wraith combinated make one of the best cc unit - fast , durable and hitting hard

Night scythe i will not even mention

and at the end Annihiliation barge - 90 pkt for vehicle with nice fire power, good durability and quite mobile - no other army have such cheap and good choice

at the end - as CSM player i don't have a big problem with necrons - 9 oblitators make then piss in the pants (aside with khorne lord with spawns), but as most of ward codecies - Necrons are broken , mostly due to lack of disadvantages, and under prices units

ps. i forgot - Necrons as army that can put most of flyers also have the best aa weapon - annihilation barge - that about balance

If I can beat Immortals backed up with the gruesome twosome with dark eldar, why can't you?

[Kawauso]

I thought one important key to beating Necrons was target priority? They require a lot of focused firepower/manpower. Other armies you can pick away at piecemeal and wear away their effectiveness over the game. Necron units typically require more dedication to ensure they're wiped out - at which point you rinse and repeat for the rest of the army.

I know that's simplistic, and I haven't played -against- Necrons ever so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but that seems to be how it goes, for the most part.

At any rate I don't think they're broken. There are some cheesy builds possible, like there were/are with armies like IG, SW and GK, but I don't think it's any worse, really...
And you can always ask your opponent to play less-cheesy stuff. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable playing something like a 'Cron Air' list unless my opponent OK'd it first, for example.

Problems like Mindshackle Scarabs and the like, though...I think you just need to develop better tactics for dealing with units that have them. They're similar to the GK grenades in that regard (but I don't think they're quite as bad).