Crazy thought - computer aided wargaming

[plawolf]

I was just thumbing through my Ipad version of the DA codex and a thought struck me - wouldn't it be nice if there was an app that took more advantage of the impressive processing capacity of modern tablets and smartphones instead of just being digital copy of a paper based codex and rule book that functions pretty much in exactly the same way as a paper book?

It is certainly possible to write a computer programme that incorporates all the rules of something like WH40K, just look at Vassal, and there are plenty of online list building programmes out there, so it seems perfectly possible to combine those two elements as well as features from other popular apps like bump to come up with a relatively simple app that could massively speed up gaming and remove the vast majority of rules disputes.

What I envisage is a programme that has all the unit types and special rules of the core rulebook and all the individual codexes (which can be sold separately as add-on modules), which has a built-in list building tool.

You use the list building tool to build your army lists, which means the app has a record of all your units and their special rules.

Ideally, your opponent would also be using this app, and when the two of you come together for a game, you can sync your army lists via bluetooth/wifi/3G/4G with a simple 'bump', much like how you can exchange electronic business cards using the Bump app.

You then set up your armies on the tabletop as normal, and can basically play the game just as you would normally do. What the app does is save you from having to roll fistfulls of dice and look up rules and tables to see what happens when you want to shoot or assault someone.

Instead, if you want to shoot or assault an enemy unit with one of yours, you simply highlight both units on the app, and select the desired action, and the computer does all the dice throwing and applies all the special rules and modifiers for you automatically. Thus, instead of spending 5-10 minutes taking turns rolling dice and looking up rules and consulting tables, you get the result of your action almost instantly. The only additional things you might need to do is select or ignore action prompts for things like challenges and Look Out Sir etc, but that should only take a couple of taps.

All that is left is to remote the stipulated number of models from both sides and move on to the next unit.

The app should be able to keep track of how many casualties each unit has taken, so you do not need to make any manual inputs or adjustments when you order the same units to do other actions in subsequent turns. However, I think it would be good to allow the option to manually adjust the unit numbers as you please (although you would need to sync the two devices for this to take effect to dissuade cheating), so that you do not have to use the app for every action. So, for example, if it was a critical fight where you wanted to savor the moment and prolong the excitement, or really want to use your luck dice, you can do so, and then input the results into the app and speed through other less exciting actions with the app.

The only maintenance you would need to do with the app is to make sure you note in it where your characters are attached, and also highlight units within range of certain items like banners or ICs who grate special rules or buffs to units within range. But that is getting too much into the nitty gritty of how the app would work, which is a little premature at the moment.

The point of this thread is to gauge the community's feelings and opinions towards such an app. What do you think about this idea of an app, will it work? If such an app existed, would any of you consider using it?

[Nabterayl]

Whether I'd use such a thing depends on how slick it is. For instance, does it already know which models of Unit X (my list) are within range (and by how much, for rapid fire, melta, etc. purposes) of Unit Y (my opponent's list), and what cover saves each model of Y gets based on their position relative to X? Or do I have to input all of the possible variables myself? If the latter, sounds like it would just slow things down.

[plawolf]

Whether I'd use such a thing depends on how slick it is. For instance, does it already know which models of Unit X (my list) are within range (and by how much, for rapid fire, melta, etc. purposes) of Unit Y (my opponent's list), and what cover saves each model of Y gets based on their position relative to X? Or do I have to input all of the possible variables myself? If the latter, sounds like it would just slow things down.

Interesting question, and one I have been grappling with when I wrote the original suggestion.

I want to keep the amount of input and time spent using the app to an absolute minimum so you can concentrate on playing the game (the whole point to the app in the first place), thus it came down to a choice to deciding which would take less effort, inputting cover saves and rapid fire ranges for individual units (and armour facing for vehicles etc), or having to build the battlefield on the app and keep track of all units positions at all times?

IMHO, the former would take less time and effort, and perhaps if the app kept the precious round's setting for a unit as the default at the start of the next, it would further cut down on how much you need to input into the app.

Now, I know that IPads and smartphones all have cameras, and it might be possible to use the camera and elements of facial recognition programmes to take a picture of the battlefield and assign cover values to terrain at the start of the game and just drag and drop units to keep track of them, or take multiple pictures at the start and end of turns and have the app figure all that out itself, but I have not seen anything like that on the market, certainly not for smartphones or iPads, so that may be too much in the realm of science fiction for the foreseeable future.

[SotonShades]

I certainly do like some of the points you've made. GW has certainly missed a trick not including list building with the digi-dex's, or at least licensing an accompanying app. There is also something to be said for being able to, for example, select the unit from an army list and bring up a summary of all it's special rules. I also quite like the bump idea though for us non-iProduct users (which make up a significant proportion of my gaming groups), it would probably be a hassle and a half. You would at least need a version of the app that could be operated solely by a single player, so you could work out hits, wounds etc without another list, so something similar to Vassal as you pointed out.

I have to say though, I am still an advocate of the old school. I like hand-writing out my lists, scribbling out units and replacing them over play testing the list for a tournament, before finally typing it up. I love the feeling of rolling handfuls of dice (or on occasion when I'm playing Apocalypse, literally buckets full of dice) and listening to the rattle of them as they settle on the table; laughing and joking with your opponent about the unbelievable number of 1's/6's that have turned up, picking out the bad rolls and realising that actually it wasn't too far off average. I like flicking through books to find the relevant rule and the feel of printed paper between my fingers (not to mention new book smell when I buy the thing in the first place!) Having used PDFs and the digi-dex's, I have to say there is certainly something far more authoritative about pointing out the correct paragraph from an actual book, and I find less demeaning.

You then get to the next point; if you have all the rules and rolls in an app, why stop there? Why bother with actual models at all? Why not just have virtual representations and play 40k as a computer game? This certainly isn't meant to be derogatory to the OP, but it is certainly the next logical conclusion. I like using real models and real dice. In an age where we are so used to fast thrills and immediate responses, it is nice to take a few hours out of your day, get face to face with someone and actually play with models and dice. Taking things a bit slower is nice from time to time. Even at tournaments where time is a major constraint, the skill of knowing what you need to roll, being able to pick those dice out quickly by hand to ensure you actually get to the end of the game is one of the things that usually sets the top tier players from those in the middle tables. The same goes for knowing what to expect from your opponent's force simply by looking at it rather than being able to click a button and be told it's stats and rules.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the app is actually a bad idea, just very, very much not for me. I'd certainly advise against it for tournament use (not even getting in to the possibility of hacking the app to make skew the odds of the rolls in your favour) as it takes away from the skill of winning. I certainly think that apps like this would have a place in the community. I try to use Vassal to play against my friend's from uni who live hundreds of miles away from me; whilst it is great to be able to get some games in with them, the experience is certainly lacking compared to the actual table top. I think the physicality of our hobby, in an increasingly digital world, is one of the things that keeps it's appeal so high, bucking many social and economic trends.

[Nabterayl]

Interesting question, and one I have been grappling with when I wrote the original suggestion.

I want to keep the amount of input and time spent using the app to an absolute minimum so you can concentrate on playing the game (the whole point to the app in the first place), thus it came down to a choice to deciding which would take less effort, inputting cover saves and rapid fire ranges for individual units (and armour facing for vehicles etc), or having to build the battlefield on the app and keep track of all units positions at all times?

IMHO, the former would take less time and effort, and perhaps if the app kept the precious round's setting for a unit as the default at the start of the next, it would further cut down on how much you need to input into the app.

Well, I don't think that's really the question. The question is whether either alternative is faster than no app at all, and I think the answer to that question is no. That makes it a badly executes feature in my book - and if the technology is not available to make it a good feature, oh well.

A list building app, though, with all of a unit's special rules handily available, is something I can see having utility.

[Anakzar]

List building would be ok and helpful. With lists printed out clearly rather than in poor handwriting... on the back of a napkin (had a guy do that and even he could not read what he had writen!)

But I like using the dice and measuring ect and the banter over the table... you can already play strategy games on PCs ect. Part of the fun for me is seeing the models and rolling the dice.

[iamian]

Like war room for warmachine and hordes? Its OK, and I think that there would be too much going on to be of much use in a 40k game. but the list builder and rules reference would be great.

[walrusman999]

I would say that a list building program with rules is the best option. but definitely not something that does the rolling for me. I prefer to throw the dice myself. I have used a lot of programs to facilitate my D&D games before and sometimes they become more of a hassle. If you wanted something along those lines, possibly an app that could tell you what to roll by checking what the abilities are off the selected units from the list builder (including additional bought options that modify the statistics) and additional options for cover, melta range, and other such tabletop possibilities. But nothing that actually rolls the dice for me. I've used dice apps for D&D and I feel they are skewed to the lower end of the spectrum, if I rolled the same number of dice on an app and physically I think the physical dice would produce a higher result.

[Blackmonkey0]

List building and sharing is a great idea.
But don't take away my dice.

[Blusox69]

It's funny you should start this thread. I'm working on a cross platform App/game that takes place almost entirely on a tablet. There are still miniatures involved but the rules and game play take place on your android or iOS devices. You effectively get a bridge console for your space ship, games are played either via bluetooth or via wireless and game results are uploaded to a central server where you can have leader boards and club leaderboards. You also earn XP which allows you to purchase free in app upgrades for your ships as well as there being paid for content available as in app purchases for your ship. I'm throwing together a trial version of the app and sourcing some 3d printed ships so we can go to kick starter with it. Using tablets has opened up a whole new range of features, I don't want to give too much away but I'm happy to answer questions or take suggestions.

[StarWarsDoug]

See: Ex Illis (http://ex-illis.com/).

I don't think we are there yet.

[plawolf]

Ok, we have got a lot of very valuable opinions and suggestions, so thanks everyone. I think it is safe to conclude that the majority of players would draw the line at the app auto computing combat results. But that actually makes things much easier and reduces massively both the technical difficulty and input level required of the user.

So, let me throw out a suggestion for a 2.0 version of this app.

What if it was designed mainly as a army list builder with rules prompts?

So, basically, when you build a list using the app, the app automatically brings up a summary of not only the members' stats and weapons/equipment, but also a summary of all the unit's special rules in a list format. If you are unsure about what any of the rules do, simply tapping it will bring up a expanded summary of the rules, much like how the current codex apps work. There would also be a function to allow you to allocate and reallocate special characters to squads, and when you do that, any special rules that the IC has will also be added to the rules summary and any buffs would be applied directly to the statline of the unit's models.

I think the 'bump' like list sharing feature has been well received, and so should be retained. In addition to getting a copy of your opponent's list and special rules, you can also select units from either list and have it shoot or assault units from the other list.

This time, you have an option of either having the app give you combat results (in which case you may need to input additional info like cover saves and proximity to area of effect special items/ICs etc) as suggested before, or simply getting a checklist of prompts.

In which case the apps tells you how many dice to roll for each model (i am going to assume everyone can do the maths of tallying up the total number of dice to roll for the unit by themselves easily enough) and what you need to roll to hit and wound taking into account of all the special rules and buffs and nerfs to stat lines (which would be particularly useful for things like psychic powers, banners, and new special weapons like status bombs and rad grenades etc). There will also be a list of special rules that apply, such as cleansing flame, hatred, preferred enemy etc go you don't forget, and also one-tap expandable rules definitions. All of this should easily fit onto one screen for the summary, so you should know the key numbers and rules from a glance.

On top of all that, there is a 'next turn' function, so if the combat carries on to the next round, the app would update the stats and special rules to remove charge bonuses like hatred and furious charge, but adds prompts for special rules that might kick in on subsequent assault turns like concussion etc.

So, what does everyone feel about this 2.0 version?

[plawolf]

It's funny you should start this thread. I'm working on a cross platform App/game that takes place almost entirely on a tablet. There are still miniatures involved but the rules and game play take place on your android or iOS devices. You effectively get a bridge console for your space ship, games are played either via bluetooth or via wireless and game results are uploaded to a central server where you can have leader boards and club leaderboards. You also earn XP which allows you to purchase free in app upgrades for your ships as well as there being paid for content available as in app purchases for your ship. I'm throwing together a trial version of the app and sourcing some 3d printed ships so we can go to kick starter with it. Using tablets has opened up a whole new range of features, I don't want to give too much away but I'm happy to answer questions or take suggestions.

Awesome idea mate, and I think the natural next step in tabletop gaming. This has a lot of potential as you can have some pretty complex rules and stats and not have to worry about slowing the game too much, and also potentially allows for global gaming as players no longer need to be in the same room to play.

Would love to hear more about it, but obviously don't give out any trade secrets. ;)

[Blusox69]

Awesome idea mate, and I think the natural next step in tabletop gaming. This has a lot of potential as you can have some pretty complex rules and stats and not have to worry about slowing the game too much, and also potentially allows for global gaming as players no longer need to be in the same room to play.

Would love to hear more about it, but obviously don't give out any trade secrets. ;)

We were looking at including miniatures, well quite large capital ship models to be precises, that you still move and manouver on any surface, you would also need to measure ranges which would be manually entered in to the command console which would then take in a number of factors before producing a "to hit chance". Various upgrades to ships such as crew training and fire control would increase chances to hit, and conversly upgrades to the target ship could reduce those chances. You're right though, keeping the physics and rules in the app mean we can get very complex rules that are easy to use and quick to play. Since one of the main features of our game concept is building up a ship and modding it and it's crew, we came up with a very unique way of doing this. there is so much scope to this concept that the app we are creating has pretty basic graphics right now while we perfect it and adjust game play. Graphics cost a lot of money to implement and will be dependent on successfully leveraging kick starter once we have a playable demo in place.

[glottis]

So, what does everyone feel about this 2.0 version?

I like it in theory, but to make it really useful (with rule popups etc as you describe), you'd probably be breaching copyright and it wouldn't be allowed on the app store. I suppose just having rule names with page-numbers might still be handy though...

[Blusox69]

Your best bet would be to create a roster style program that would let you link to pages/rules in copies of digital codexs that you have bought via the book store. It limits you to iOS for now until they start publishing on Android. This should circumvent the copyright issues as you will have already purchased their material.

[Learn2Eel]

Cost and ease of use would be the main selling points; if it is too expensive, it won't catch on. If it is not readily accessible by a multitude of different audiences, then it won't last very long.
It is certainly a neat concept, but one that would have to do well on the very first attempt - it would be too easy to mess up.