DA Deathwing Assault

[Nimor]

I have seen this argued all over the place and am looking for an answer.

Simply, Can i put my entire army into Deathwing assult?

Answers i have been given at my local store:

-Only half your army can be put in reserve so only half can use the DW assault.

Can somone please point out where it says they are going into reserve when they are placed into the DW assault. As this is being done after warlord traits, so by the time you get to where your picking what goes into reserves you have no army to choose from?

Am I missing somthing?

[Nabterayl]

I have seen this argued all over the place and am looking for an answer.

Simply, Can i put my entire army into Deathwing assult?

Answers i have been given at my local store:

-Only half your army can be put in reserve so only half can use the DW assault.
You know, I was all prepared to say that of course you can do a 100% Deathwing Assault (if you have the right models and gear for it), but I'm not sure that's actually true. Argument follows:

Deathwing Assault reads:


Units of models with both this special rule and Terminator armour can make a Deathwing Assault. After determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are doing so and make a secret note of whether it takes place on turn one or two. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn with no Reserves roll.

So first, to answer your question, yes, making a Deathwing Assault includes being placed in Reserve. This can be seen in two ways. First, the Deathwing Assault rule itself notes that you make no Reserve roll, which would only be relevant if the units were in Reserve in the first place. Second, as the Deep Strike rule states, "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." Since a Deathwing Assault involves making a Deep Strike, it follows that the unit making the Deathwing Assault "must start the game in reserve."

Now on to the 50% limit.

The Reserve rule reads, in relevant part, "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

So, obviously Deathwing Assault does not force you into Reserves. It's permissive - you may. As always, that means "You may, unless another rule states you cannot."

Contrast this with regular terminator armor. For instance, the Space Marines codex says:


Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the deep strike rules (emphasis added).

Deathwing Assault has nothing like that. So it appears to me that an all-Deathwing army follows the 6th edition trend against all-reserve, or even heavily-reserved, armies.


As this is being done after warlord traits, so by the time you get to where your picking what goes into reserves you have no army to choose from?
That's not true. You pick warlord traits prior to deploying: "Before either player deploys, they must first each determine their Warlord Traits."

[Tynskel]

I disagree.
You may choose to do Deathwing Assault, which is not reserves. You simply choose which terminator units are doing so. The action involves reserves, but the act of Deathwing Assault is not reserves. You cannot divorce reserves form Deathwing Assault.

Note, you can put Terminators into reserves, but unlike normal terminators, they cannot 'always' do so. Then, you would follow the standard 50%.


The #1 issue though is still having units on the board at the end of turn 1. If you have an entire army using Deathwing Assault, they must come in on Turn 1.

[Nabterayl]

So you read "Units ... can make" as "Units ... can make [regardless of other restrictions]"? I see that reading, but I'm pretty sure that's not sure that's the best way to read rules.

Or am I misunderstanding your argument?

[JMichael]

The order would be:
Roll/decide Warlord Traits
Determine and announce what units will be Deathwing Assaulting
Roll/Choose Psychic Powers
Deploy Forces.

By the time you decide what units to put into reserves, your Deathwing are already in the 'must start in reserves' category (imo) and thus you can and indeed must put them all in reserves.

[Nabterayl]

By the time you decide what units to put into reserves, your Deathwing are already in the 'must start in reserves' category (imo) and thus you can and indeed must put them all in reserves.
Can you explain why they must start in Reserves? It sounds like you're arguing that because you chose to deploy them in a way that requires they be in reserve, they must be in reserve. Which is not what "must" means, I think.

[Kaijne]

I am unsure, so i am waiting to finish picking up the rest of my deathwing units, and sent this one off to the GW FAQ people two weeks ago. Haven't gotten an answer back yet, but i'm hoping the answer is in the next FAQ round for Dark Angels, (which hopefully drops soon).

[JMichael]

Can you explain why they must start in Reserves? It sounds like you're arguing that because you chose to deploy them in a way that requires they be in reserve, they must be in reserve. Which is not what "must" means, I think.

Although the Deathwing rule doesn't really mention that they are in reserves anyway. I see it like Drop Pods, Flyers, or other units that must start in reserves (or otherwise cannot be deployed). They do not count towards the 50% reserves restriction.
And because you choose to deploy said units in Deathwing Assault before you get to the assign reserves step they must be kept off the table.

I think the order is important and deliberate. Otherwise GW may have just said 'during deployment choose which units will be deployed via Deathwing Assault'.

[Nabterayl]

I see that argument, and I agree this is a good case for a FAQ. I think there can be no question that a unit making a Deathwing Assault is in reserve, although I agree 100% that they are not placed in reserve dying deployment.

However, the Reserves rule doesn't say that only half of your deployable units may be placed in reserve. It just says that during deployment, you may have only half of your units in reserve, minus those that must start the game in reserve.

Deathwing Assault is decidedly unlike a flyer or drop pod in that those latter two cases must begin in reserve whether the player likes it or not - and indeed, there are plenty of cases in which a player would rather they didn't. Units only make a Deathwing Assault because the player wants them to. To me, that seems like the very antithesis of "must start in reserve."

Of course, some units have exceptions to the reserve limit that have nothing to do with needing to start in reserve. Jmichael brings up a good point that the codex could have just said during deployment. I would point out, though, that a player knows more about the battle during deployment than he does between deployment and warlord traits. So the codex might have placed DA after warlord traits because it intended DA units to be exempt from the reserve limit, but it might also have placed DA there because you are supposed to make the DA decision with limited information. I don't see how we can decide which is the more likely scenario.

Given that ambiguity, and the fact that I don't see any way to shoehorn DA in under the "must start the game in reserve" clause, it still seems to me best to read DA as counting towards the reserve limit. Maybe that's not what Vetock intended to write, but I think that's what he wrote.

[uglytater]

I think this is going to be a Dante's Axe rule that until it's faq'd, the best thing would be to discuss it with the opponent and rolll off if need be. When I read the rule I just assumed that the units counted towards my reserves, but I can see the other side of the argument.

[Xigorth]

Having read the rule and the comments above I am going to weigh in on the side of not counting towards 50% in reserve. My reasoning is thus:

[] You have the option to place units into Deathwing Assault, immediatly after Warlord Traits are selected, and BEFORE Deployment is conducted. The next step is Deployment. During Deployment, the unit MUST go into reserve since it is conducting a Deathwing Assault, therefore does not count against the 50%.

[] The choice to Deathwing Assault is not done during the Deployment Step, therefore does not count as choosing to place a unit into reserve. If I want to Deep Strike or Reserve the Deathwing normally, and not DW Assault, I will place the Deathwing into Reserve during the Deployment Step and that will count against the 50% limit.

[] The wording in the book is deliberate. Had they meant for it to count against the 50% as is normal for reserves it would be stated, "During Deployment select which DW are conducting a DW assault... etc etc" Instead the RAW clearly states that this decision occurs immediatly after Warlord Traits, which is before Deployment has been conducted.

[Nabterayl]

As I've said, I think this is ambiguous, but I'm interested in why you don't find the following arguments persuasive:

While it's true that during deployment you may only place up to 50% of your army in reserve, the reserve rule doesn't say that only 50% of your army can be placed in reserve during deployment.
The reserve rule doesn't limit "must start the game in reserve" to a particular part of the game. If a unit can EVER start on the table, it does not meet the meaning of "must start the game in reserve."
What a player knows during deployment is more than what a player knows prior to deployment. Deathwing Assault may have been placed pre-deployment not to circumvent the 50% reserve rule but to force the player to make the decision with limited information, and there is no way to tell which reason was intended.

[JMichael]

I think perhaps the best reason that an entire Deathwing army should be allowed to Deathwing Assault is because it's cool!
I also believe that fielding an all Deathwing army is something that GW wants to allow (just like an all Raven wing army).

On a side note, I've been playing an all Deathwing army in our league. I am winning more than loosing (I won our last 2 leagues with Sisters then Eldar), but not due to my awesome or overpowered Deathwing. Nor due to the entire army deep striking on turn 1. I tend to win when my opponent deploys poorly (namely all grouped up instead of spread out).

1 player brought an IG tank list specifically to deal with my Deathwing and I tabled him. Easy to deal with bunched up tanks!

[JMichael]

As I've said, I think this is ambiguous, but I'm interested in why you don't find the following arguments persuasive:

While it's true that during deployment you may only place up to 50% of your army in reserve, the reserve rule doesn't say that only 50% of your army can be placed in reserve during deployment.
The reserve rule doesn't limit "must start the game in reserve" to a particular part of the game. If a unit can EVER start on the table, it does not meet the meaning of "must start the game in reserve."
What a player knows during deployment is more than what a player knows prior to deployment. Deathwing Assault may have been placed pre-deployment not to circumvent the 50% reserve rule but to force the player to make the decision with limited information, and there is no way to tell which reason was intended.

Just my 2 cents on these specific questions (you bring up very good points as usual Nabterayl)
1. Exactly. The Reserves rule doesn't really limit what can be in reserves, just how many units you can place in reserves during deployment.

2. I see what you're saying, but this really comes down to which comes first. Once you assign Deathwing Assault then the unit must not be deployed. Deathwing Assault also does not state that you 'put them in reserves but come in on turn 1 or 2'. So I see that this gives them their own unique deployment that is not reserves at all.
Reserves doesn't state that any model not deployed is considered to be in reserves.

3. Indeed that may have been the intent, or it may have not been. Though I think to not include the 'during deployment' or simply add 'they still count towards your 50%, etc' would've been easy enough.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I was clear about my first point. The rulebook says, "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up)." That can mean one of two things:

No more than half a player's units can be deployed into reserve, although they may enter reserve through other means.
When deploying, no more than half a player's units can end up in reserve, no matter how they get there.

If not for the "must start the game in reserve" clause that follows, I'd say 1 is clearly the correct reading. Certainly I think that 1 is the most natural if you read the sentence by itself. But then read what follows: "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so." This seems to indicate that units that always start the game in reserve -
i.e., whose disposition is settled prior to deployment - would count towards the reserve limit, but for this specific exception.

The implication is that a flyer or drop pod or other unit that can never be deployed would count towards the reserve limit, except the fact that it "must start the game in reserve" explicitly means it doesn't. Like a flyer, a unit making a DA is not available to be deployed - by the time we get to deployment, its disposition is spoken for. Unlike a flyer, a unit making a DA need not start the game in reserve.

So to turn to that issue again:

I*remain unconvinced that it matters when a unit "must" start the game in reserve. The rule says, "Units that must start the game in reserve."* I see no coherent way to read that as referring only to the deployment phase. It doesn't say "Units that cannot be deployed are ignored" or "Units that must start the game in reserve by the time you get to the deployment phase are ignored." I know people hate it when we start arguing definitions in a rules analysis, but I don't see any modifiers to "must."
It's not even in the same sentence as "When deploying their armies."

Since the rule doesn't limit "must start the game" to the deployment phase, we have to come up with an explanation of that phrase that avoids things like "Well, I did X, and X requires that the unit be placed in reserve, so X must be placed in reserve." That way madness lies. Otherwise we could argue of any old unit, "Well, I held the unit in reserve during deployment, and so the unit 'must start the game' in reserve, so I guess it doesn't count towards my reserve limit!" And that is obviously not the correct reading; it makes a mockery of the rule.

If you have a choice about whether to put it in reserve - ever - then it doesn't fall under the "must start the game in reserve" clause. We have to look for a different reason the unit can violate the 50% rule. There may well be one, as there is for [5th edition] vanilla terminators, but I still don't see it.

EDIT: I suppose I should reiterate, as it seems one must when a rules analysis runs longer than ten posts, that I wouldn't be surprised if GW FAQs this either way. On the one hand 6th edition seems to despise null deployments. On the other hand, the all-teleporting terminator army is a tradition. I have no idea what Vetock intended to write; I'm only increasingly sure of what he did.

[Tynskel]

As I've said, I think this is ambiguous, but I'm interested in why you don't find the following arguments persuasive:

While it's true that during deployment you may only place up to 50% of your army in reserve, the reserve rule doesn't say that only 50% of your army can be placed in reserve during deployment.
The reserve rule doesn't limit "must start the game in reserve" to a particular part of the game. If a unit can EVER start on the table, it does not meet the meaning of "must start the game in reserve."
What a player knows during deployment is more than what a player knows prior to deployment. Deathwing Assault may have been placed pre-deployment not to circumvent the 50% reserve rule but to force the player to make the decision with limited information, and there is no way to tell which reason was intended.

See, terminators can start on the table.
At the same time, you have the choice to put them into reserves. The Deathwing Assault is making a special deployment, and if anything, it is 1 unit for the purposes of reserves, anyhow (similar to how the Platoon works). Since it is similar to the wording for a platoon, if you have every single Deathwing unit in Deathwing assault, you only have 1 unit in reserves.

They just have to come in on turn 1 if you are playing Deathwing Army. Otherwise, it will be a short game...

[Nabterayl]

You have the choice to put them into reserves, agreed, but I don't see where you find the authorization to violate the 50% rule. Deathwing Assault just says "can." That does not read to me like the vanilla terminator entry ("may always") that lets vanilla termites violate the 50% rule.

[JMichael]

Again, I know it may seem a bit nit-picky, but Deathwing Assault doesn't state they are placed in reserves. I would not automatically assume that anything not placed are in 'reserves'.
And once the units are assigned to the Deathwing Assault they cannot be placed on the table, but can only enter via Deep Strike on the designated turn.

While the reserves 50% rule doesn't specify at what stage of the pre-game the restriction applies, you can only assign Reserves during the deployment phase as reserves is a type of deployment.

Warlord Traits
Assign Deathwing Assault (entire army)
Psychic Powers
Deployment...hmm what units do I want to place in reserves...well my Deathwing Assault has to come in via it's special rule thus it doesn't seem apply as I'm not allowed to place them on the board...

[Tynskel]

You have the choice to put them into reserves, agreed, but I don't see where you find the authorization to violate the 50% rule. Deathwing Assault just says "can." That does not read to me like the vanilla terminator entry ("may always") that lets vanilla termites violate the 50% rule.

But it doesn't violate the 50%. You are allowed to round up, and if a bunch of units count as 1 reserve roll, they only count as one for reserves. If all of the deathwing are placed into Deathwing Assault, then you qualify.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think I buy that, Tynskel. You may make one choice for all units making a DA, but where do you get the idea that they count as one unit for reserves purposes? Did I miss a FAQ?

It's true that DA doesn't state that the units are placed in reserve. On the other hand, it does say that they Deep Strike (as opposed to something like "enter play as if by Deep Strike"). It occurs to me that the Deep Strike rule requires that a unit have the Deep Strike rule and be placed in reserve. Are you suggesting that just as DA allows a Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule, so it allows Seep Strike without being placed in reserve? That is ingenious, I must admit, but whence from the wording then do we see that they cannot be placed on the table? I assume we all agree no reading of DA that permits units to start on the table and also Deep Strike on turn 1 or 2 can be correct.

[Tynskel]

I am more relating to the previous precedents of multiple units coming in for one reserve roll. IG platoons, for example.

I am not that clever with words.

What I do find important is the phrasing, however. The fact it doesn't just say that they deep strike together, but specifically states that there is a specific order of operations involved, interrupting the normal order of operations.

It could be constructed that the Deathwing Assault units have already been placed into reserves before deployment (after warlord roll). Not exactly crystal clear, however, I think it is enough to interrupt the normal operation of the game. At which point, if you have selected all of your Deathwing Units to be in Deathwatch Assault, and then begin deployment, they are already in reserves (ie like the fighter jet).

They could have said 'during deployment' dot dot dot. Instead they wrote 'after warlord rolls'.

[Nabterayl]

At which point, if you have selected all of your Deathwing Units to be in Deathwatch Assault, and then begin deployment, they are already in reserves (ie like the fighter jet).

Now that's an interesting argument. This position would have it that, say, you could have 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault and 0 units on the table (though you still lose if you don't have boots on the ground at the end of turn 1), and 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault and 2 units on the table, but not 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault, 1 unit otherwise in reserve, and 1 unit on the table. Unless that 1 unit was something like a flyer.

So you're suggesting that you violate the 50% rule, but you do so before the 50% rule is checked.

[Tynskel]

yeah.

[JMichael]

Now that's an interesting argument. This position would have it that, say, you could have 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault and 0 units on the table (though you still lose if you don't have boots on the ground at the end of turn 1), and 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault and 2 units on the table, but not 3 Deathwing units in Deathwing Assault, 1 unit otherwise in reserve, and 1 unit on the table. Unless that 1 unit was something like a flyer.

So you're suggesting that you violate the 50% rule, but you do so before the 50% rule is checked.

This is exactly how I read it.

[FortheEmperor!]

I think the 50% rule applies. They deepstrike from reserve. There are 2 ways to have your units come into the game. Either they deploy which means they start on the table (including infiltrators), or they are in reserve. Period. The Deathwing assault rule does not create some new "deployment condition." Either they deploy, or they are in reserve.

Not counting units that MUST start in reserve, you can only reserve up to 50% of your units. So it is written, so shall it be, forever and ever (or until the next FAQ). Amen.

[Denzark]

Is there not a rule whichj states things that must start in reserve (ie flyers, drop pods etc) don't count to 50%. You select DW assault before you select reserves. Therefore because they arrive by DS they must start in reserve off table - so they are like pods and flyers, not sometyhing you voluntarily stuck in reserve. You volunteered DW assault which forced them to use the reserve rule. You did not put them in reserve.

[Nabterayl]

There is a rule that relates to 50% and reserves, yes. As we've been discussing since page 1, though, the wording does not make it clear that the rule only applies during deployment. The difference is between me telling you, "Don't have more than 50% of your tools in my garage" (which I think is the correct analogy) and "Don't put more than 50% of your tools in my garage when you come over next Sunday" (the interpretation that some others favor).

After that issue, there is the entirely separate issue of whether a unit that is only in reserve because a player made a choice "must" start the game in reserve. Is one step of remove really enough? To me, that's like saying, "Well, I didn't put them in reserve! All I did was press this button that caused my robot servants to put them in reserve! There was nothing I could do to stop it!"

[Archon Charybdis]

After that issue, there is the entirely separate issue of whether a unit that is only in reserve because a player made a choice "must" start the game in reserve. Is one step of remove really enough? To me, that's like saying, "Well, I didn't put them in reserve! All I did was press this button that caused my robot servants to put them in reserve! There was nothing I could do to stop it!"

If that were the case the passengers in a drop pod would count against your reserves limit. It wouldn't matter that they become subject to DPA once they embark on the drop pod, they could have chosen not to.

[Nabterayl]

If that were the case the passengers in a drop pod would count against your reserves limit. It wouldn't matter that they become subject to DPA once they embark on the drop pod, they could have chosen not to.
You know, I hadn't thought of that. You make an excellent point; I'm convinced.

To unpack that in case it isn't clear: the BRB FAQ says that passengers in a transport that must begin the game in reserves do not count towards the reserve limit (BRB FAQ page 8). That comes as the answer to a question rather than as an amendment or erratum, indicating that the existing text should be read in that way. So what way is that?

It appears that "must," as used in this context, has a looser meaning than I have been arguing for. Apparently a unit "must" start in reserve if its transport must, even though the player didn't have to put them in the transport to begin with. It seems fair that by analogy, a unit making a Deathwing Assault "must" start the game in reserve even though there was nothing "must" about the decision to make a Deathwing Assault to begin with. In each case the player has made an entirely voluntary decision to do something other than place the unit in reserve, even though he knows full well that an inevitable consequence of that decision is that the unit ends up in reserve. And in at least one case this counts as "must."

So ... I'm convinced. Anybody else think of objections to this line of reasoning?

[Archon Charybdis]

Yay, I'm convincing! And thank you for doing a more detailed write up, because that's exactly how I see it as well. I agree that on the face of it I would read "must start in reserves" to be more restrictive, but the precedent set with the FAQ seems to suggest it's looser than that.

[Tynskel]

I think that it is important to note that the Deathwing assault decision occurs before reserves decision, which is why it becomes 'must'

[rle68]

it amazes me at times there is a new dex the obvious is missed more often then not... codex trumps rule book page 44 DAC

there is no ambiguity there.. units entirely composed of models that have this special rule and have terminator armor CAN choose to make a deathwing assault.. it doesnt say you must use deathwing it doesnt say you cant it says you can.. you have a choice.

the other issue again which is dex vs rulebook...immediately after choosing warlord traits, tell your opp which units are making a deathwing assault.. This is indeed prior to deployment and if you choose to use an army that consists of entiely deathwing assault capable models then you may have 100% make a deathwing assault...

However.. the deathwing assault does not bypass the at end of turn 1 if you have 0 models on the table you auto lose rule.. so you would have to have them come in on turn 1...

so lets wrap up...

1. you may have an army that entirely arrives on turn 1 in direct contravention to the rulebooks 50% rule..
2. you may have an army that uses deathwing assault and those numbers do not count towards your 50% rule as they are deducted from your army prior to deployment.. that again assumes you have other models in the army that does not have DWA..At which point you would have to deploy 50% of those models

is it really that complicated?