CSM Army list - opinions?

[Jim Christensen]

Hey guys im about to play against a buddy of mine who plays vanilla marines, and has all kinds of nastyness, this time he is going to use his thunder fire cannon amongst other things and a char named pedro something i think, a typhoon land speeder, a normal landspeeder, and an attack bike.

I got a World Eaters army, which by the new standards/dex got pretty nerfed and banged up(Thank you so much GW for making 6kpts obsolete!)
Nevertheless admittedly im finding more and more joy in the versatility in the new chaos dex, and im currently trying all kinds of stuff out(Including suicidal stuff.)
Up until now ive found that my fave main units are 2*5 spawns with MoK joined by 2 chaos lords on Juggernaughts, one with black mace and the other with burning brand.

We have agreed on 1500 pts

And my idea is as some can see to just litteraly be all over him in turn 2 - 3
hopefully in turn 1-3 the sorcerer can boost the spawns or oblits depending on what he gets.
and then join in the CC fights.

I plan on dropping the termies where his heavy support or special units may be and remove them asap before they can do any harm on the advancing spawns/brutes/maulers


Anyhoo, here goes:

Sorcerer Lord, 60, Mastery lvl 2, 25, MoS, 15, :100

Troops:

13*Cultists, 62
10*Cultists, 50
10*Cultists, 50 :162

Elites:
2*Hell brutes :210

5*Terminators, 157, 5*combi plasma, 25,MoK,15, :197

Fast attack:
2*5 spawns, 300, MoN,60. :360

Heavy:
2*Maulerfiend :250

3*Obliterators, 210, MoN, 18, :228


Total:1507

[Clewz]

standard loadout helbrutes are only 100 points now in the FAQs

I would also cut a few bits out and squeeze a Heldrake in there

[Denzark]

If I faced this I would try to kill your troops and then mass on one objective. These 6+ save cultists are too brittle. There are too many objective games in the rule book to have the minimal troops choices with toys using up most of your points.

[DrLove42]

Anyone with an aircraft is going to really hurt you.

Drop a Oblit maybe and a few cultists for a defence line & quad gun? Gives you some AA and protection for the cultists

[Caitsidhe]

Sorcerer Lord, 60, Mastery lvl 2, 25, MoS, 15, :100

My first thought is why not take the Sorcerer as far as you can go? Disciplines are their thing so you might as well push it to the maximum. Moreover, it is more cost efficient to buy a Terminator Sorcerer (and you will need the durability). Odd as it may sound, I tend to do my Sorcerer bit with the Daemon Prince to try and get more bang for the buck, i.e. get a combat MONSTER on top of a Sorcerer and fill my HQ slot. In low point games the obscene, expensive DP actually comes out something of a bargain by giving you a two for one and filling the HQ slot. Of course, if you go this route you make it Nurgle so you can use cover to prevent those one shot kills.


Troops:

13*Cultists, 62
10*Cultists, 50
10*Cultists, 50 :162

I absolutely hate Cultists. The models are great. Their use is awful. If you are going to use them, you might as well blob them. Don't give them any upgrades and have them as your cheap, rearguard objective camper. Clearly you are trying to save points by using them because they really don't serve any purpose.


Elites:
2*Hell brutes :210

Judging by your selections, I'm assuming you own two DV sets. :) Hell Brutes aren't awful, but the current META gives them problems. You can get a cheaper Melta-Gun. Getting them into combat is tough. Consider that for the cost of two Hellbrutes a tiny amount more in points will give you a full unit of Obliterators w/MoN. You just won't get the Hellbrutes into combat in a reliable way. Options win games and the Hellbrutes limit rather than expand options. Perhaps when we see the new rules on the Dreadclaw they will become more promising, but for now... I would never consider more than one Hellbrute.


5*Terminators, 157, 5*combi plasma, 25,MoK,15, :197

This is all wrong. I'm not sure how else to put it. You mention using these guys to come in and take out an opponent's heavy support. Well... you are not properly equipped for that job. Melta-Guns are more effective for the drop and pop since you cannot be certain you are going to get the rear via deepstrike. Most clever opponents will place their Heavy Support so that trying to deepstrike into their rear puts you at EXTREME risk of mishap. Further, MoK on Terminators that are going to deepstrike in are entirely wasted as you have a good chance of them NEVER seeing combat. They drop and hopefully pop something. What follows is a rain of fire which will kill them by volume. You are probably better served by suicide Terminator Squads which are stripped to the bone aside from their Combi-Meltas. *And don't put in more than the minimum required number of Termies.


Fast attack:
2*5 spawns, 300, MoN,60. :360

Hrm. Ok? I know there seems to be this movement on the internet talking these things up but I have not seen RELIABLE results from such units. They suffer even worse than Terminators from simply getting killed by volume of fire. If they are working for you... fine... but you probably only need one unit of them at most to serve as your distraction tarpit. Two of them just further limits your options. Your list lacks much in the way of shooting. Cultists can't shoot for crap and the way you have broken them up further dilutes even volume of shots. Your Terminators will get one round. Your Hellbrutes have to get in range. Your Spawn don't shoot at all. Your Mauler fiends are self evident as far as not being shooters. You have one unit of Obliterators (which helps). In 6th Edition the gun is king. It is like you have purposely decided to ignore that fact.


Heavy:
2*Maulerfiend :250

3*Obliterators, 210, MoN, 18, :228

The Obliterators are nice. I'd get more.


I don't want to be negative but your opponent (if setup as you described) should be able to take you apart in detail. Your opponent is likely to be more mobile with longer range fire and probably a lot more accurate VOLUME of fire. Marines have better access to Multi-Melta than we do and your reliance on vehicles which must close the distance, i.e. moving into his kill range is going to severely hamper you.

[Caitsidhe]

P.S. I agree with Dr. Love. You have no AA at all. You need an Aegis w/Quad Gun. My view is that you should do one of your damn Cultist blobs and one unit of basic CSM. Put the basic CSM behind the Aegis to man the gun as they have a better BS and are less likely to break and run. They are a bargain. Another option would be two medium blobs of Cultists... one behind the Aegis w/HQ of some sort manning the gun.

[Jim Christensen]

If I faced this I would try to kill your troops and then mass on one objective. These 6+ save cultists are too brittle. There are too many objective games in the rule book to have the minimal troops choices with toys using up most of your points.

thanx for your thought, well, i know the cultist are nothing but objevtive campers, which is why always try and hide them until turn 3-4 and start moving on the objectives.

[Jim Christensen]

thanx as well to you for your thoughts and insight.

I see the logic in most of what your saying, i know all of this may seem pretty blunt.

The only reason im trying to use the brutes is just to test them and see how they work along with the maulers, but, as you mentioned, and i know he does this, he always makes tactical withdrawals and punish anything trying to catch up with the pesky flyers/bikes which are harrasing my flanks(Or deep striking for that matter)

The only reason for the MoK on the termies was because i had 15 pts left and it costs 3pts per mark(...)

But in all, i do see what your saying so i will try and rewrite the list with some of the stuff you said.

P.S Ive lost to him 6 battles in a row, with the old dex, and won 3 times in a row with the new, and from what ive experienced so far, then the 2 spawn units are there to stay, they work wonders. ill be back with an update and see what you think. again, thanx for the run down. :-)

[Jim Christensen]

Actually that sounds like an idea, the CSM´s and the aegis line and a blob of cultists, as the quad gun/aegis line is dirt cheap. :-)

[pauljc]

To be fair - and I'm not a tourney gamer - a crapton of T6 Spawn probably do ok vs. mass infantry firepower. ;)

[mysterex]

6th edition seems to be all about objectives and in my opinion you need at least 4 scoring units, most of which should be relatively resilient and at least one of which should be able to some how get across the other side of the table in less than 6 turns.

That's why I've struggled with the new codex. We often play 1500 points, sometimes scaling up a few extra units to get to 1750. At that level I just can't get the troops to work in a way I like.

The one thing that would easily solve this problem is Typhus & plague zombies but I don't play death guard and to do this to my satisfaction would effectively mean replacing my current army.

[Lord Krungharr]

I like the Slaaneshi Sorcerer Lord, but why not try him with a Sigil, max Mastery, and a Bike...then run him with barebones Spawn, only take that 1 unit of Spawn as a meatshield. Or make him a Terminator and deepstrike him with either the Obliterators, in which case they can't be Nurgliterators, or put him with the plain Terminators. But a Biker-Psyker is a fun concept.

For the Helbrute I like to take the twin-linked lascannon with missile launcher. Just take 1.

Take the 3 Oblits w Nurgle AND Veterans of the Long War....they NEED that extra Leadership for sure, and it gives them Preferred Enemy vs Space Marines of all sorts (except Chaos Space Marines of course :) Maulerfiend is cool, I can't wait to build one and try it out as a scary shock unit. Pretty cheap I think, not a total crestfall if it dies along the way.

I agree the Terminators should be a minimum size Termicide squad with 3 or 5 dudes all with combi-meltas and put in a chainfist too. Power swords are good, though I've been liking power mauls (mainly because I like maces more than swords in general).

With those point savings I think you can get a Heldrake and after blobbing the Cultists altogether, or leaving 10 in the backfield, 20 or so for further into the table, you might be able to get a 10 man CSM squad in there with a plasma gun/missile launcher, or some other type of CSM squad to man an Aegis Line/Gun Emplacement.

Regarding the Gun Emplacments, I find the Icarus Lascannon to much more effective at taking out fliers, though it does need someone with decent BS to fire it, and BS4 on CSMs are decent. If you could fit a Warpsmith in the list, I think they have BS5, so join him to basic Cultist squad, touch Warpsmith to Icarus or Quad Gun AND touch him to the Helbrute for repairs behind the Line. Then your Helbrute would also get the 4+ cover save usually and continue to fire it's weapons.

So my 1500 pt recommendation based on the OPs idea is:

HQ: Sorcerer/Slaanesh (though I think Nurgle is just as good or better)/Sigil/+2 Mastery levels/Melta Bombs (just in case)/Bike
HQ: Warpsmith
T1: 10 Cultists
T2: 20 Cultists
T3: 10 CSM/Plasma Gun/Missile Launcher
Elites: 3 Terminators/3 Combi Meltas/1 Chainfist
Elites: Helbrute/TwinLinked Lascannon/Missile Launcher
Fast: 5 Spawn
Heavy: Maulerfiend
Heavy: 3 Obliterators/Nurgle/VOLTW

You'd not only have anti-air, but just decent all around anti-armor/anti-Terminator (Oblits have plasma cannons, AND they are decent vs Flyers as well...assault cannons anyone?) The deepstrikings grant versatility to compensate for slow Troops, and the Maulerfiend and Spawn/Sorcerer would give some speed and make your opponent do some thinking about target priority.
Good luck!

[Jim Christensen]

Thats exactly what they do! XD

[Jim Christensen]

As with the others thank you for your thoughts.

But, theres a thing here that seems to elude everyone,

First off,

The sorcerer lord is going to with the 13 cultist unit for the wounds reason, the mark of slannesh is becaue of the buffs he has the potential to give to the spawns or oblits for that matter,
ive made it a crucial that he is not amongst my key elements in this aproach, so i expect him to die at some point as he would be running behind the big guys and do amgic tricks for as long as he is alive, the two other cult units is just for base camping until about turn 3- 4,

My aproach to all of this was/is to be over in my friends deployment zone by turn 2 - 3, the mauler fiends are just as fast as the spawns, i know one of them prolly wont reach that line, but theres still a chance of that happening, and 10 T6 spawns and 1 or 2 mauler fiends in anyones frontline will make a serious mess, added to that, IF at least one hell brute makes it as well its clubbering time! add to that the deepstriking termies to hit some of those pesky fliers falnking around, and the same with the oblits, thats gonna be one busy deployment zone of his, anyhoo, as i said to one of the other guys earlier, he made some pretty solid points, so im re writing some elements and keeping some, esp the spawns as theyr pure gold every game XD

[Caitsidhe]

The sorcerer lord is going to with the 13 cultist unit for the wounds reason, the mark of slannesh is becaue of the buffs he has the potential to give to the spawns or oblits for that matter, ive made it a crucial that he is not amongst my key elements in this aproach, so i expect him to die at some point as he would be running behind the big guys and do amgic tricks for as long as he is alive, the two other cult units is just for base camping until about turn 3- 4,

This being your intent didn't elude me; I just don't think it is a good idea. It sounds like a waste of potential and I don't see the point in even buying the HQ at Level-2 if you are just going to throw him away. Statistically, the probability of you getting the spells you want and getting to use them in a productive manner in this way is pretty much zero.


My aproach to all of this was/is to be over in my friends deployment zone by turn 2 - 3, the mauler fiends are just as fast as the spawns, i know one of them prolly wont reach that line, but theres still a chance of that happening, and 10 T6 spawns and 1 or 2 mauler fiends in anyones frontline will make a serious mess, added to that, IF at least one hell brute makes it as well its clubbering time! add to that the deepstriking termies to hit some of those pesky fliers falnking around, and the same with the oblits, thats gonna be one busy deployment zone of his, anyhoo, as i said to one of the other guys earlier, he made some pretty solid points, so im re writing some elements and keeping some, esp the spawns as theyr pure gold every game XD

Hrm. I just don't think this tactic is reliable. You are also somewhat hoping that your opponent is going to deploy in a way that you can converge on everything of importance. I just don't see that happening. I see... http://poetry.eserver.org/light-brigade.html .

[Jim Christensen]

This being your intent didn't elude me; I just don't think it is a good idea. It sounds like a waste of potential and I don't see the point in even buying the HQ at Level-2 if you are just going to throw him away. Statistically, the probability of you getting the spells you want and getting to use them in a productive manner in this way is pretty much zero.



Hrm. I just don't think this tactic is reliable. You are also somewhat hoping that your opponent is going to deploy in a way that you can converge on everything of importance. I just don't see that happening. I see... http://poetry.eserver.org/light-brigade.html .

Hahhaha good point with the song! Well, as i mentioned earlier, i am rewriting it as we speak, as more than one of you guys have pointed some things out to me, so ill be back with a fresh list ;-)