Why the Dark Eldar should not get a new codex...

[Ivarr]

So I have seen a lot of banter on here about how the Dark Eldar should have a new codex. No one has mentioned all of the reasons why they shouldn't be a big priority for GW though.

1. The Dark Eldar failed as a business venture...when they were in the starter box, you couldn't give them away, and are the least selling army in 40k still.

2. The codex is still very, very OP...and 5th edition only made it worse. Troop choices with 2 melta type weapons and 2 dark lances each...and an entire army with fleet. They have great skimmers for a very reasonable price too. (and with the new vehicle damage table, S4 weapons do not bring them down like they did.)

3. <tongue in cheek> They are in fact emo space faeries.

Though number 3 is intended to be silly/argumentative...I have a friend who is still playing the DE with very good outcome, so why would GW need to hurry and redo this codex. For the record, the "it's the oldest codex" argument carries no weight with me...as it is still very effective.

I think the WH and DH codecies are in much more need of rewrite...in fact, I would probably thrown the Necrons in this group too as 5th edition really cramps their style.

[Squirrel_Fish]

While the Dark Eldar codex functions well considering its age, there are a plethora of rules that just did not exist at the time of the Codex's publication, leaving a large amount of the codex rather useless or just horrifically overpriced.

As for popularity, the Dark Eldar have always been one of the more difficult armies to use and have never been tactically forgiving. Thus, only a select few who understand and desire this glass-cannon effect will start a Dark Eldar army, as opposed to Space Marines which just about everyone and their mother has played.

While I do feel that Necrons need the rules update more, I feel that Dark Eldar need a new model range. Pointy heads are not in style and never really were. :rolleyes:

Squirrel_Fish

[Havik110]

someone post the obvious troll is obvious pic please...

[Ivarr]

As for popularity, the Dark Eldar have always been one of the more difficult armies to use and have never been tactically forgiving. Thus, only a select few who understand and desire this glass-cannon effect will start a Dark Eldar army, as opposed to Space Marines which just about everyone and their mother has played.



I think that in 5th edition this is really not the case...it may have been in 4th...but the with the rise in effectiveness of mechanized lists and swarms...the DE are very competitive as they do both of these things well...

I will concede the need for new models...but the necrons are hurting on this front also...

[Nachocheez]

IMHO necrons are no where near needing new models as dark eldar!!! Being a cron player myself, I know what the models are like, and think that they're pretty good. With regards to the Dark Eldar needing a new codex, im with Ivarr on this one. Some new sculpts for DE are definitely in order!

[eagleboy7259]

3. <tongue in cheek> They are in fact emo space faeries.


They might be emo space faries now, but imagine if GW did over the whole range, there are some cool ideas behind the list. Just so long as they don't pop out as spiky guardians again... they need to be as different from the eldar as the harliequins are, or the chaos cult marines to the good guys. However IMOP GW has to do over the WHOLE range, there isn't a single model that they have that looks good next to the newer models.

[Nabterayl]

They might be emo space faries now, but imagine if GW did over the whole range, there are some cool ideas behind the list. Just so long as they don't pop out as spiky guardians again... they need to be as different from the eldar as the harliequins are, or the chaos cult marines to the good guys. However IMOP GW has to do over the WHOLE range, there isn't a single model that they have that looks good next to the newer models.
I have no particular opinion as to who "deserves" a new codex, one of the things I look forward to whenever GW gets around to the dark eldar codex is the fluff re-write. One of the things I like about 40K is that every army has something about its fluff to like or identify with. Even the "bad guys" of the universe -

Orks? Violent, yes, but probably the happiest race in the game.
Necrons? Not just soulless killing machines - they're soulful killing machines. Within each necron body is the shriveled husk of the soul of a real person. Not a very likable person, maybe, but one who was tricked into a fate far worse than death - can't help but feel a little sorry for them.
Chaos marines? Traitors to humanity, sure, but the Imperium is a terrible place. It's not hard to identify with rebelling against the Imperium - and like the necron, there's something a little poignant about the fact that the Chaos marines found out too late that the Imperium really is the lesser of two evils.
Tyranids? Ineffable eating machines, sure - but the one thing we pretty much do know about tyranids is that they're just doing what comes naturally to them. Nothing personal about it.
Daemons? Just manifestations of their gods, all of whom are alluring in their way. Nurgle doesn't hate you. Nurgle likes you. Nurgle gives comfort to those who despair. Not his fault that you think he's disgusting. Slaanesh? Slaanesh tells you that it's okay to look out for yourself, and care about what you want - probably the only entity in the Imperium who will ever tell you that. The Emperor sure as hell won't. Khorne? Khorne isn't just some crazed berserker god. Khorne wants you to be good at what you do. He cares about martial honor. Khorne tells you that sometimes, when you're so frustrated that you just want to break something, the solution really is to kick *** and take names, and that's okay. And Tzeentch? Tzeentch is the dark god of ... Hope. Hope that, however bad things are right now, they can always change.
And dark eldar? They ... uh, they apparently believe that the pinnacle of pleasure is snuff porn. Okay, there's more to them that. But I'd love to see their sympathetic side brought out more. Yes, they really do get pleasure out of torture and pain. But they're the descendants of the eldar pleasure cults, whose perversion wasn't that they got pleasure out of torture and pain - it was that they saw no moral difference between the pleasure of contemplating the beauty of a flower and the pleasure of flaying your sex slave alive. That may be horrible, but it could also be interesting.

For me, the dark eldar have always been about fear. Their devotion to the philosophy of the pleasure cult threatens their very souls, and unlike the craftworld eldar, they've refused to give up their devotion to the pleasure cult philosophy. So they've turned themselves into soul vampires, essentially - yes, they get a kick out of torturing and killing you, but they're really offering up your soul to Slaanesh. Why? Because they're terrified that if they ever stop, s/he will come after them instead.

I think this duality is really interesting. The dark eldar like to think of themselves as badass predators, going where they want, taking what they want, whenever they want. But underneath all of that is a race that is essentially cowering in the corner, begging, "Don't eat me!"

[Ivarr]

"They'll tear your soul apart!!!"

[Denzark]

Because 6 years afterwards, we'll reach the start of another 6 years incessant dripping from DE players who think their codex should be updated...

[yergerjo]

I would want some decent fluff/story writing regarding the DE before they started updating our Codex.

The Soul Drinkers interacted with a group of Slaanesh WORSHIPPING DE...Wtf?
The Iron Snakes had 1 freaking Marine scare and slaughter a whole ship full of DE...Wtf?

We had a short story in White Dwarf, "The Torturer's Tale" which was great...the little bits in our current codex are nice...and that's it.

***
Game-wise, currently they can be very competitive, you just have to be a smart player and have luck with dice...

They are not an automatic "I Win" army. You either win BIG or lose BIG...everyone can fear us...we can have a lot of the 2nd best Heavy Weapon in the game, the Lance....but without any AP 1, or 2d6 pen we have just as much difficulty with armor as other races...we just have to have a lot of Lances to have a chance. Bolters and Sluggas can shoot our Raiders down, the only thing we don't need to fear are lasguns...our infantry are only survivable in cover or the Wyches when they are in combat...

Myself I like the current codex and am NOT in a hurry for a new one...the only benefit to getting a new codex would be new models/units and slightly different ways to play.

[Sangre]

The codex hasn't been updated because the models don't sell well enough.

The models don't sell well enough because the sculpts are horrible.

The sculpts won't be updated because there's not a codex release in the pipeline.

Etc.

[Lerra]

I'd like the DE to get a pdf update (like the Blood Angels update) with fairly priced units and updates to the non-functioning wargear.

I do think we'll see Necrons out before DE (and imo we should see Necrons before DE), and a pdf would be a good stopgap.

[eagleboy7259]

I haven't ever looked into fantasy that much, but it seems like if an idea works well enough in fantasy it'll have a counterpart in 40k.

I doubt DE will get a pdf update like BA did, shame though... I wish GW would move to a "living" rules codex thing like some of their specialist games do. Then we would never need this codex whining, they could just update it, balance it, faq it, idk it just sounds easier.

[DarkLink]

So I have seen a lot of banter on here about how the Dark Eldar should have a new codex. No one has mentioned all of the reasons why they shouldn't be a big priority for GW though.

1. The Dark Eldar failed as a business venture...when they were in the starter box, you couldn't give them away, and are the least selling army in 40k still.

2. The codex is still very, very OP...and 5th edition only made it worse. Troop choices with 2 melta type weapons and 2 dark lances each...and an entire army with fleet. They have great skimmers for a very reasonable price too. (and with the new vehicle damage table, S4 weapons do not bring them down like they did.)

3. <tongue in cheek> They are in fact emo space faeries.

Though number 3 is intended to be silly/argumentative...I have a friend who is still playing the DE with very good outcome, so why would GW need to hurry and redo this codex. For the record, the "it's the oldest codex" argument carries no weight with me...as it is still very effective.

I think the WH and DH codecies are in much more need of rewrite...in fact, I would probably thrown the Necrons in this group too as 5th edition really cramps their style.

1. They failed as a business venture because of how poorly the models were accepted by the community. I've never heard anyone say they though the Dark Eldar models were cool looking. With a complete redesign they can become perfectly viable.

2. There are a limited number of builds that are very OP. Those lists are really, really good, but there are also a ton of units and wargear in the codex that are invalid as they currently exist. A new codex would grand a much wider range of viable units, and with current trends, still be perfectly competitive.

3. Hmmm, right. Moving on;)

I would ultimately agree that Daemonhunters need a new codex more (but that is because I play them:D). Frankly, I think the next 3 codecies should be Daemonhunters, Necrons (both for power issues) and Dark Eldar (to update the ridiculously old rules, plus GW could potentially make a lot of money if they have good models this time around). Witchhunters after that. Then maybe Tau.

That won't happen though, beacuse GW has different priorities. We gamers want to see well balanced and frequently updated codecies, while GW wants to see as little red and as much green as possible. I don't blame them.

[MajorSoB]

1) DE were a failed business venue due mostly to the substandard model range that accompanied a very decent set of rules at the time of release. Both 4th edition and 5th edition have hurt their style of play ( 4th- bad vehicle glancing table and 5th no consolidation into a new combat ). GW has not given up on the line but has them on the back burner awaiting the complete line of newer sculpts while they release more mainstream and money generating armies. I am certain you will see them redone but it will be a total redo of the complete line not the band-aid style White Dwarf codex fix that was last offered to the BA players.

2) The codex is outdated. Some wargear is unusable and there are units like scourges that make no sence at all ( moving heavy weapons that cant move and shoot). The codex even references a "jink" save on helions, when was the last time you heard that term, the old DA codex? There are some playable builds in it but it does need a rework. Again you wont see it until the complete line is ready for rerelease.

3) Get a life, the whole space fairies joke is as old as the brown stain on your mother's mattress!

WH do not need a new codex yet. They are playable and competitive but in the world of powergaming I guess there isnt an uber build currently from that codex. Same with DH except they do need a transport option and some adjusted points costs. I dont see either of these armies getting attention anytime soon.

Now Necrons on the other hand do need a rewrite simply because of the fragility introduced by 5th edition combat resolution. I do believe they will be done within the next calendar year, hopefully with a restructuring of the troop spots ( flayed one to troops ) and some point cost editions as well as new rules governing WBB. I have heard the tiered lord system of different metallic lords and believe this will work and add some flavor back into this army. Again its all speculation but we will see.

And fear not, the DE will get a new codex and model line sometime in the distant future. It will happen but only when the powers that be at GW say it will.

[Commissar Lewis]

I'd laugh, though, if when all is said and done the DE players cry RUINED FOREVER about the new codex. Likely won't heppen, but it would be ironic in a way.

[Ivarr]

1) DE were a failed business venue due mostly to the substandard model range that accompanied a very decent set of rules at the time of release. Both 4th edition and 5th edition have hurt their style of play ( 4th- bad vehicle glancing table and 5th no consolidation into a new combat ). GW has not given up on the line but has them on the back burner awaiting the complete line of newer sculpts while they release more mainstream and money generating armies. I am certain you will see them redone but it will be a total redo of the complete line not the band-aid style White Dwarf codex fix that was last offered to the BA players.

2) The codex is outdated. Some wargear is unusable and there are units like scourges that make no sence at all ( moving heavy weapons that cant move and shoot). The codex even references a "jink" save on helions, when was the last time you heard that term, the old DA codex? There are some playable builds in it but it does need a rework. Again you wont see it until the complete line is ready for rerelease.

3) Get a life, the whole space fairies joke is as old as the brown stain on your mother's mattress!

WH do not need a new codex yet. They are playable and competitive but in the world of powergaming I guess there isnt an uber build currently from that codex. Same with DH except they do need a transport option and some adjusted points costs. I dont see either of these armies getting attention anytime soon.

Now Necrons on the other hand do need a rewrite simply because of the fragility introduced by 5th edition combat resolution. I do believe they will be done within the next calendar year, hopefully with a restructuring of the troop spots ( flayed one to troops ) and some point cost editions as well as new rules governing WBB. I have heard the tiered lord system of different metallic lords and believe this will work and add some flavor back into this army. Again its all speculation but we will see.

And fear not, the DE will get a new codex and model line sometime in the distant future. It will happen but only when the powers that be at GW say it will.

3) They space faeries thing never gets old, and you didn't even spell it right. You mother jokes are not necessary and are generally taken quite seriously in my circle.

Regardless of opinions about which codex needs rewritten, your statement that WH and DH don't need a codex yet makes me wonder if you have tried to play either. I have, and they are both in need of help a lot more than you beloved DE.

[MajorSoB]

DH need an update yes, but still are quite playable. They make regular appearances at tourneys and would most likely be more popular if they weren't a metal based army.

on the other hand...

WH work perfectly fine in the hands of a skilled player. There are currently two list that are solid. 1) The all Adeptus Soretis list. Usually played mech it works off faith paints, dirt cheap 3+ armor and cheap melta and flamer weapons. The exorcist is still one of the best tank hunters/montrous creature killers in the game. 2) WH with attached guard. While the faith points are somewhat lower you have dirt cheap guards units to offer a ton of lasgun and heavy weapon fire, as well as chimeras whose new weapon upgrades dont suck. Both list require skill and knowledge as to when to use your faith points. I have played this army for quite some time now and actually won several tourneys with it, so it isn't me my freind , it would be you that is uniformed.

(FYI, I own both DH and WH so just maybe I know what I am talking about.)

Maybe the whole space fairy thing probably stems from a bad experience you had at summer camp, or maybe when you were an altar boy right? DE need a new codex but think what you like, I am done discussing this...

[Melissia]

The Dark Eldar shouldn't get a new codex because you're mother's a ... wait... what was the subject again? Damnit, what's with these troll threads?

[Ivarr]

DH need an update yes, but still are quite playable. They make regular appearances at tourneys and would most likely be more popular if they weren't a metal based army.

on the other hand...

WH work perfectly fine in the hands of a skilled player. There are currently two list that are solid. 1) The all Adeptus Soretis list. Usually played mech it works off faith paints, dirt cheap 3+ armor and cheap melta and flamer weapons. The exorcist is still one of the best tank hunters/montrous creature killers in the game. 2) WH with attached guard. While the faith points are somewhat lower you have dirt cheap guards units to offer a ton of lasgun and heavy weapon fire, as well as chimeras whose new weapon upgrades dont suck. Both list require skill and knowledge as to when to use your faith points. I have played this army for quite some time now and actually won several tourneys with it, so it isn't me my freind , it would be you that is uniformed.

(FYI, I own both DH and WH so just maybe I know what I am talking about.)

Maybe the whole space fairy thing probably stems from a bad experience you had at summer camp, or maybe when you were an altar boy right? DE need a new codex but think what you like, I am done discussing this...

I have owned and played both also, I just think that even before 5th edition, they needed to be updated...and the only upgrade either of them experienced in this edition is that flamers got better. I have had some success with WH too...but not seen a single person do all that well with DH...especially now that they don't even kill demons well. I am quite sorry that you take the rest so seriously...and again you make some sort of "gay" reference out of my faerie comment...though it is just a reference to the fact that they are elves in space...and elves are also known as "fae". I am certain that you would not talk as much trash in person, but am sorry for the offense.

On the other hand I am "uniformed" so perhaps my apology won't matter.

[Morgrim]

Maybe there needs to be the first ever 'combined' slot:

The Dark Eldar model range with the Necron codex. Satisfy two birds with one stone, and the small handful of new or improved necron models that I suspect will be released with their codex form the second wave. The second wave of DE models can come out with a codex, or even a brief pdf stopgap.

/tongue in cheek